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On July 21 2012 07:37 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote:wbg in obs qt:
So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.) Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? the only reason you suspected Mattchew was because of OMGUS. Literally. If you hadn't noticed, you almost died on the previous day, but survived kind of luckily (still not really sure how that happened given that half the townies said Mattchew was town) For example, look at this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=15#284massive wall of text that no one really wants to read. All 3 reads are wrong. (Austin, SnB, Keirathi) (and in the previous post you list 3 different guys who you all think might be scum: DB, Risen, Milkton. 1/6) Also, some of your opinions were just flat-out bad, especially the mason one. Masons don't claim at the start of d1. You could've been mislynched for this because it's very antitown to say "no one discusses this, masons claim now, and if they claim later they're scummy". The fact is that nowhere in any guide does it say masons must immediately claim. In fact, in many cases it's a waste of the role. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#367another post indicating you not reading the thread, yet still posting shit. Simple fact of the matter is that if you haven't understood the setup, stop posting until you do. It's not hard: just read the damn OP. Everyone else managed to do that except you, yet you continued to post pages upon pages of misinformed garbage. This post sums it up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#368When you post the way you did on d1, people can't help but call you scum. Finally, regardless of whether some of your reads were right, I have the same problem with you that I have with other people who claim undue credit for reads: for most of the game you tunneled townies such as Keirathi and strongandbig. In addition you had very large lists of players you found scummy, and very rarely did it seem like you were paring these reads down. Thus if you find 8 players scummy and ultimately 2 of them are actually scum it's not impressive at all given that there are only 3 scum and 12 players besides yourself to begin with.
I feel like a lot of this applies to me as well >.>
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I do disagree with wbg that I would have been an easy mislynch tomorrow. Maybe the day after, or the day after that, but there's no way I was getting lynched tomorrow. Scib would have claimed mason, I would have been dead or rb'd, which I would claim, and then we would have lynched Dropbear since he's the ONLY one not on mattchew and not "confirmed" town. Dropbear could counterclaim but then there's the breadcrumbs and even with a scib lynch dropbear still dies the next day.
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On July 21 2012 07:37 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:33 Keirathi wrote:From Mason QT: sciberbia wrote:
Will anyone ever take the hint and fakeclaim... As a VT, getting yourself killed at night isn't such a bad thing
I thought about it. Too much of a risk when I don't know who the real Mason is though. I felt like whoever was mason was waiting to claim in the hopes that someone would fake-claim and they could get them lynched. I was pretty sure you were Mason (hence why I said I was 95% sure you were, and then accidentally said your name in the heat of the argument with Risen), but I didn't know what your feelings were towards me. If I fake-claimed, you probably would have outed me and wasted a mislynch. yea I guess it would have been risky :/ i should've explicitly hinted or something. you couldn't know how I would react. For the record, mason QT blows scum QT out of the water! Fuck yea! Was really fun austin. Couldn't have asked for a better role or mason partner Yup yup, enjoyed it. Much better than getting masoned with scummy ol' marv for a couple days. I keed.
Gonzaw, I liked your post N3 about what the possible third scum role could be, and what it meant for various claims.
Sorry all for my weird play D1. I seriously just got flustered or something, and then just kept digging myself deeper and deeper. The moment I felt I looked scummy, the more concerned I got with trying to boost my towniness, and it made me look awful. Hopefully I came back looking normal on N1 and D2.
Also, thanks bugs for hosting, and for providing thoughts in obs.
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@NSH
thanks for hosting. Sorry if my ramblings in the mason QT were not to your liking 
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yeah I'm going to write up a more detailed postgame soon but the gist of it is this:
scum were lazy. They had 0 presence, 0 influence, and 0 will to play. I know Mattchew didn't even want to play scum. Given that 1/3 of the scum team doesn't want to be scum and the other 2 for the most part play at about the same level, the only factor left is town.
Because scum had no influence and town had confirming power roles (2 masons + cop) AND scum chose not to RB n1, the setup was very transparent. The lack of n1 RB forced the hand of mafia and it was a poor choice. Even if they wanted to (which I doubt they did) they could not fake a town RB or jailkeeper. In addition it was a race against the clock and scum lost because they were complacent. The townies who were "confirmed" were not at all confirmed (except for sciberbia, who didn't claim) but scum didn't take advantage of this. Scum didn't take advantage of Risen flip flopping. Scum didn't take advantage of the incorrectness of everyone who was not named austinmcc.
The game wasn't won on analysis. It was merely won on luck. It could've been lost (for town) by luck just as easily. All the players must remember that.
Kudos to austinmcc and marvellosity though. I would rate austin the best player of this game given that out of 4 scum reads on d1 he caught all 3 scum within them.
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On July 21 2012 07:46 sciberbia wrote:@NSH thanks for hosting. Sorry if my ramblings in the mason QT were not to your liking
nah it's fine, it's a learning experience.
Mason is not a role played often but you have to understand that living is not the problem. Townies should strive to die because often times (in the current meta, at least) mafia shoot townies for being correct because it's so rare that they actually are correct about reads.
That may change given some time, but I think you were a bit too concerned with living and not concerned enough with your real job : finding and killing scum. Focus less on your role and more on killing scum and I think you'll find you'll get better results in future games (on an individual basis, that is)
For reference, look at the amount of people who called you scum. Your goal should be to get that number as close as possible to 0, regardless of your actual alignment.
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On July 21 2012 07:43 Risen wrote:
I do disagree with wbg that I would have been an easy mislynch tomorrow. Maybe the day after, or the day after that, but there's no way I was getting lynched tomorrow. Scib would have claimed mason, I would have been dead or rb'd, which I would claim, and then we would have lynched Dropbear since he's the ONLY one not on mattchew and not "confirmed" town. Dropbear could counterclaim but then there's the breadcrumbs and even with a scib lynch dropbear still dies the next day.
anyone would've been an easy mislynch given a scum who knew what he was doing.
I've done it myself in similar situations. If you don't believe me, read Mini X. I rolled scum in that game and I won 7v1 after my only scumbuddy died d1.
It wasn't an identical situation given that DB had to deal with some confirmed townies, but he also had the advantage of having a scumbuddy that could've lived the previous day. You + Gonzaw + keirathi + milton could've all made mislynches at some point or another. The order in which it would've happened is of little significance (although I agree that it would be optimal for the remaining scum to kill you later rather than sooner).
Also DB had assigned sciberbia for the kill, so the confirmed mason would've died. You would've had no fallback.
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On July 21 2012 07:47 NoSmurfHere wrote:
yeah I'm going to write up a more detailed postgame soon but the gist of it is this:
scum were lazy. They had 0 presence, 0 influence, and 0 will to play. I know Mattchew didn't even want to play scum. Given that 1/3 of the scum team doesn't want to be scum and the other 2 for the most part play at about the same level, the only factor left is town.
Because scum had no influence and town had confirming power roles (2 masons + cop) AND scum chose not to RB n1, the setup was very transparent. The lack of n1 RB forced the hand of mafia and it was a poor choice. Even if they wanted to (which I doubt they did) they could not fake a town RB or jailkeeper. In addition it was a race against the clock and scum lost because they were complacent. The townies who were "confirmed" were not at all confirmed (except for sciberbia, who didn't claim) but scum didn't take advantage of this. Scum didn't take advantage of Risen flip flopping. Scum didn't take advantage of the incorrectness of everyone who was not named austinmcc.
The game wasn't won on analysis. It was merely won on luck. It could've been lost (for town) by luck just as easily. All the players must remember that.
Kudos to austinmcc and marvellosity though. I would rate austin the best player of this game given that out of 4 scum reads on d1 he caught all 3 scum within them.
I was actually busy day 1/night 1 so that sucked balls too
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On July 21 2012 07:47 NoSmurfHere wrote:
yeah I'm going to write up a more detailed postgame soon but the gist of it is this:
scum were lazy. They had 0 presence, 0 influence, and 0 will to play. I know Mattchew didn't even want to play scum. Given that 1/3 of the scum team doesn't want to be scum and the other 2 for the most part play at about the same level, the only factor left is town.
Because scum had no influence and town had confirming power roles (2 masons + cop) AND scum chose not to RB n1, the setup was very transparent. The lack of n1 RB forced the hand of mafia and it was a poor choice. Even if they wanted to (which I doubt they did) they could not fake a town RB or jailkeeper. In addition it was a race against the clock and scum lost because they were complacent. The townies who were "confirmed" were not at all confirmed (except for sciberbia, who didn't claim) but scum didn't take advantage of this. Scum didn't take advantage of Risen flip flopping. Scum didn't take advantage of the incorrectness of everyone who was not named austinmcc.
The game wasn't won on analysis. It was merely won on luck. It could've been lost (for town) by luck just as easily. All the players must remember that.
Kudos to austinmcc and marvellosity though. I would rate austin the best player of this game given that out of 4 scum reads on d1 he caught all 3 scum within them.
yeah I didn't want to play scum either, but I never do
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Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of.
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On July 21 2012 07:51 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:43 Risen wrote:
I do disagree with wbg that I would have been an easy mislynch tomorrow. Maybe the day after, or the day after that, but there's no way I was getting lynched tomorrow. Scib would have claimed mason, I would have been dead or rb'd, which I would claim, and then we would have lynched Dropbear since he's the ONLY one not on mattchew and not "confirmed" town. Dropbear could counterclaim but then there's the breadcrumbs and even with a scib lynch dropbear still dies the next day. anyone would've been an easy mislynch given a scum who knew what he was doing. I've done it myself in similar situations. If you don't believe me, read Mini X. I rolled scum in that game and I won 7v1 after my only scumbuddy died d1. It wasn't an identical situation given that DB had to deal with some confirmed townies, but he also had the advantage of having a scumbuddy that could've lived the previous day. You + Gonzaw + keirathi + milton could've all made mislynches at some point or another. The order in which it would've happened is of little significance (although I agree that it would be optimal for the remaining scum to kill you later rather than sooner). Also DB had assigned sciberbia for the kill, so the confirmed mason would've died. You would've had no fallback.
I'm confused as to how he could have possibly, POSSIBLY convinced ANYONE to not lynch him. Scib flips and is confirmed green, sab is confirmed green when I stop screwing around and declare that I'm actually cop during the last hour before day and when day comes I confirm that I'm roleblocked. Who would ANYONE lynch in that situation, the only non-"confirmed" person left in the game aka Dropbear. If Dropbear flips green and I don't die another night THEN I get lynched. You don't lynch the people who killed mattchew and made it possible.
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On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote:
Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of.
I really, REALLY wanted to lynch you, but I talked myself out of pushing it because I wasn't sure if it was just OMGUS, or if I actually thought all of your silly little slips/logic leaps added up to enough to make you scum, or just playing badly. Which is ironically the same thing that halted me voting talis on d2, and I was wrong about him :o
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On July 21 2012 07:57 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote:
Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of. I really, REALLY wanted to lynch you, but I talked myself out of pushing it because I wasn't sure if it was just OMGUS, or if I actually thought all of your silly little slips/logic leaps added up to enough to make you scum, or just playing badly. Which is ironically the same thing that halted me voting talis on d2, and I was wrong about him :o
An OMGUS case against me would have gotten me lynched ezpz. I have no idea why matt didn't lynch me. Sure I'm a claimed cop and I "shouldn't" be lynched, but he knows as well as I do that what town "should" do and what it does almost never coincide. Hell, when we were scum VE got lynched day 1 with a "doctor" claim.
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I think bugs is too critical.
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On top of this, when I come back and say you should never lynch the claimed cop matt can easily retort with "WRONG. You lynch scum no matter what." And I would have been like damn... this claim was a bad idea and I should feel bad.
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On July 21 2012 07:37 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote:wbg in obs qt:
So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.) Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? the only reason you suspected Mattchew was because of OMGUS. Literally. If you hadn't noticed, you almost died on the previous day, but survived kind of luckily (still not really sure how that happened given that half the townies said Mattchew was town)
No, I was getting suspicious of Mattchew since D2, and even before he made his "case" on me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#958 ) or even before he even FoSed me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=46#909 )
It had NOTHING to do with OMGUS. Hell I even stated later his FoS on me wasn't my sole reasons for stating that:
I won't get ahead of myself though, I'll try to see if your intents are malicious or not later, but fucking hell they seem so right now to me.
Surely that's the opposite of OMGUS?
Yes, those reads were bad, but they were into 24 hours into D1. I was just posting my thoughts then. I would have actually liked if they completely ignored that post afterwards.
I mean, think of it like this:
-By D1, I had 3 scum reads, ALL 3 were wrong.
-By D2, I changed my mind about all 3 of them and thought of them as town, which was RIGHT.
Is that "horrible play" like you are making it out to be?
I went through a lot of effort in changing those reads, I don't see why I can't even get a little bit of credit for doing so.
Also, some of your opinions were just flat-out bad, especially the mason one. Masons don't claim at the start of d1. You could've been mislynched for this because it's very antitown to say "no one discusses this, masons claim now, and if they claim later they're scummy". The fact is that nowhere in any guide does it say masons must immediately claim. In fact, in many cases it's a waste of the role.
Every time "confirmed town" masons roles have been discussed I've read the same conclusion "it's better they claim on D1 to get confirmed townies".
Sorry if I didn't put a lot of thought into it, but for me 2 confirmed townies on D1 beat the hell out of any gambit those masons decide to play later, since 2 confirmed townies on D1 can completely change the game (like they did on C9++ Mafia a while ago).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#367
another post indicating you not reading the thread, yet still posting shit.
I didn't think a bracketed off-topic questions that I added last-second, kind of as a joke, kind of since I didn't actually remember was "posting shit".
I actually tried people to ignore it later, but S&B still went against me because of it.
Yes, I'd say this was pretty bad play by me and I apologize.
I still don't see how much of an impact it had on the game, and why making that "bad play" made me suspicious.
When you post the way you did on d1, people can't help but call you scum.
I don't get this.
Even then most people supposedly found me suspicious because of D2, not D1.
for most of the game you tunneled townies such as Keirathi and strongandbig.
If by "most of the game" you mean D1+N1. I never thought they were scum AT ALL when I started rereading the thread/filters on D2 (albeit having some little suspicious of Keirathi at some times, but nothing that lasted too long)
In addition you had very large lists of players you found scummy, and very rarely did it seem like you were paring these reads down. Thus if you find 8 players scummy and ultimately 2 of them are actually scum it's not impressive at all given that there are only 3 scum and 12 players besides yourself to begin with.
I don't remember when this happened, could you point it out?
Damn it wbg you seem pissed
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I think the real turning point this game was tali getting lynched. Tali doesn't get lynched I think mafia has better odds winning the game. With tali lynched it's still decent odds. With me not getting lynched after what I did the game I think swung into our favor. Throw this on top of our lucky lynch of mattchew? Wowza.
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On July 21 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote:
I think bugs is too critical.
I agree. can you please wait a few hours before shitting on our play? I'm just trying to enjoy the moment here.
Also, I think that putting this game down to "luck" isn't giving town enough credit. (3/11) and (2/9) scum lynches would be extremely lucky indeed on random chance. I think it might've had something to do with good reads.
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On July 21 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote:
I think bugs is too critical.
I approach learning mafia the same way I learn almost anything else.
If you're not aware of your mistakes then you will be doomed to repeat them. In fact, sometimes even being aware of your mistakes, you repeat them subconsciously anyway (I had this conversation with marvellosity a little while ago; both of us were talking about how we learned something and then made the same mistake again later lol)
Anyway it's kinda like learning how to play an RTS game online for the first time. The sooner you realize that you have a lot to improve, the sooner you can begin to improve. Even the best players make mistakes and it's in their interest to realize these mistakes so that they can become better. No one is perfect by any means.
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EPT
