Bureaucracy Mafia! - Page 17

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 01:59 GMT

#4247

12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host.

There is nothing in the rules about faking a host post as far as I can tell. If you fall for it, then you clearly aren't reading properly.

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 02:37 GMT

#4251

You mentioned before that the deadline's would change. When will the new deadline be?

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 05:27 GMT

#4256

* * * * * * *

Nuff said really.

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 21:49 GMT

#4360

That was satisfying

The key to this game was Day 1 and unfortunately for scum Gonzaw was too busy to really play. That vital link in their structure was missing. As town we knew that mafia would be all over the place. That is incredibly powerful and was something I relied on. Either they were going to be wishy washy non committal or they would have to accidentally bus their team. It was a win for town.

I agree that town had too many power roles. The game was effectively won after the king lynches. Gonzaw risk and qbertz were never in the top half of my townie lists before the snoopers outed themselves.

Overall best game I have played. Thanks so much to the hosts and thanks to my fellow players. You were awesome.

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 21:54 GMT

#4361

The problem with killing half your team as scum as you cannot be sure they are on the same half. If you kill all your minions you lose both the numbers advantage and your abilities. Once you have effectively your team town would be rightly suspicious if you start lynching townies at an alarming rate.

This game is fundamentally hard for scum. I am surprised no mafia went solo and just ignored all PM communication. You know play as a townie. Town needed to kill every scum so it was worth a shot. Especially with the number of scum around.

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 21:56 GMT

#4363

Happy Birthday my King

Did you really think I was mafia?

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Australia3894 Posts

July 31 2012 22:54 GMT

#4371

I agree with what Bloody Cobbler is saying. I think if you halved the number of town blues the game would be fairer. Three day vigilantes is insane. We didn't need the snoopers or the cop to out the mafia team eventhough they are incredibly powerful roles.

Risk, given the setup I have no idea why you would not just risk it on your own. Your team know you are looking for scum and unless you are a the town leader you are unlikely to get killed. If you do, well that is the risk you take. As for town lynching you, you have more power than the other townies in that you can night kill (once the rest are dead) so you should be able to manipulate town into misslynching. I know it is a risky strategy, I never said I expected everyone to do it. I am just suprised given 9 mafia that none tried it.

PM Cops are irrelevant. Think about it, the people who the PM cops checked were all playing like mafia. The PM cop is the same as any other cop in that if you are playing with clarity they shouldn't check you.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 01:25 GMT

#4391

On August 01 2012 10:10 gonzaw wrote:
Again:

Show nested quote +

That "PM Cop" outed three scum when he caught my message.
It's not "irrelevant" if he can catch more than 1 scum with a "check", or can know all about scum's strategies (even if he outs only 1 scum).

I was responding to risk. My point was that playing a solo game would make PM snoopers irrelevant because you would aim to look as townie as possible. Remember snoopers only get PM that go to or come from the person they check.

On August 01 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote:
Also damn. I keep looking at the scum team, and if the game hadn't started yet I'd say the scum team would win

Also lol Zealos not only was "caught" yet was actually acting scummy. I can't believe how people didn't lynch him.
Even I thought he was scum until like D4, how the hell did you guys figure out he was town?

I made my reasoning quite clear. The claim thing was dumb but it made no sense from a scum perspective either. Actually his whole play this game was terrible but it was not malicious and he doesn't have a record of playing fantastically. Compared to yourself who I know is really inciteful when you roll town, so I knew you were scum. I mean I almost got you lynched Day 1 and the only thing stopping me from pushing you later was I thought you were genuinely busy. That and we had better targets.

Look at your targets for scumhunting. They were easy to push, you never went after the really big fish and you never raised something completely new. If you are behind (people think you are scum) you have to do something different. Something big. It was really hard to establish your innocence in this setup because everyone should have been legitimately scumhunting. This was true for town and for scum. The problem scum had was they decided not to do that on Day 1 which meant you guys were never truly cleared.

The biggest disadvantage mafia had was they did not know who their team was and this gave town a goldmine of information. I kept going back to the early game because the one thing I knew for certain was that mafia was not being forthright with their reads. It was a simple strategy but it paid big dividends because it identified town and scum equally.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 01:37 GMT

#4396

Outside things that affected mafia's ability to win

Having an executive replaced
Having the other executive really busy in the early game
Not knowing what roles were available and only having a VT PM to fakeclaim
Being outnumbered by blues
Not knowing enough of their members at game start
Syllo being effectively unkillable
Limited KP counterbalanced with huge town KP

I think these things could be changed for the next game and would make a big difference in the outcome. I think a potential role list for at least the CEO and perhaps having members of the same level knowing only their partners would help. For example minions know the minions in their side of the company. Similarly the Execs know each other. It's is not a complete reveal but it gives mafia the ability to break up the early game into multiple groups.

Internal things that affected mafia's ability to win

Activity
Risk taking
Lack of proactive contribution

Mafia knew that Day 1 was imperative and I guess like a typical bureacracy they decided to wait for orders. This gave town the ability to really push their targets early and to set themselves up as townies before mafia could get going. By the end of Day 1 you had Sandroba and Bugs as confirmed town, you had Syllo as very townie. You had Gonzaw, BH and Foolishness as scummy. That is a disastrous start which they never really recovered from.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 01:40 GMT

#4398

On August 01 2012 10:32 layabout wrote:
Not knowing your teammates is a tremendous advantage if you want to survive. Minions should not have given a rat's buttock about secretly figuring out who their team mates were. This game gave mafia the tools to play to their town game's. The biggest real issues for minions were the anonymous PM's, BM's stealing power and the difficulty of having to play out a very long game.

I agree but no one seemed to do that really well. If you are going to go solo, you have to make yourself seen. Otherwise you are of no use to mafia or town and are unlikely to survive till the end.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 01:50 GMT

#4401

On August 01 2012 10:37 gonzaw wrote:

Show nested quote +

But then the snoopers would still check that minion and see he received a scum message

Why would they check that minion? VE was never checked, Syllo was never checked, Sandroba was never checked, I was never checked. Now you can blame that on us having roles but we were not checked before we outed them. I agree that two snoopers was a lot but that doesn't make them overpowered. If you just ignored the mafia PMs (or even better outed them) and played as pro town as all hell, you make yourself "immune" to snoopers. Yes that makes you a mafia target but if mafia had a system to "prove" their allegience in thread the executive should realised your strategy. It was one I would have played if I rolled scum because I know my meta is so obvious if I am not out there actively and carefully scumhunting.

Show nested quote +

Couldn't you say the same thing about sloosh?
I mean, his claim didn't "make sense from a scum perspective" either (was just bad), and his play wasn't that incriminating (compared to Zealos at least).
Yet Zealos was never considered as lynch at all yet sloosh was always "almost confirmed scum" ever since he claimed.
Of course, unless I'm missing something that made people think "Zealos is town" and "sloosh is scum" that didn't have anything to do with their "dumb claims/reactions".

I have much higher expectations of slOosh than Zealos. For Christ sake look at my last agme with slOosh. He owned on Day 1 but was ignored and that was why I kept asking for his opinion. When he replied in a lacklustre way I knew something was off. Then his claim seemed so unlike a town slOosh that I knew he was mafia. It didn't make sense and slOosh does not do things that don't make sense. Call it meta if you will.

Show nested quote +

I tried doing that with supersoft on D2 and nobody paid attention to me at all (even if they agreed)
By that point I knew I had zero town presence and everything I did was pointless basically. The only thing I aimed to do was: save Palmar on D3 (a 2-shot scum Pardoner could have been very useful in late-game), and try to convince people I was town by the way I pushed my reads (on players I thought were scum/town).
As you can see my reads sucked as well so that didn't help :/

That is the problem with being mafia. You have to try and make a case against someone who is town and so the case has to have flaws. You were a victim of your own success. I know you play well as scum and I know you play well as town so I was cautious of you from the start. When you didn't live up to my expectations even after you were almost lynched I was pretty sure you were mafia. Than when you came in defending Palmar for no apparent reason it solidified the read in my head.

BTW I was tossing up between lynching you or layabout for my kingmaker hit. Both fo coming out of nowhere having done nothing of substance and then suddenly defending Palmar who had also done minimal work just screamed mafia to me.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:03 GMT

#4405

The period between Night 2 and Day 3 is where the game was lost for mafia. They traded Sandroba for three mafia kills including the CEO. Game over man. By then you had myself, VE, Syllo, and Supersoft as confirmed town with BM and Chez never really a likely lynch target. Too many town not enough mafia. The PM stuff that came later was just icing on the cake.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:09 GMT

#4408

On August 01 2012 10:57 VisceraEyes wrote:

Show nested quote +

Indeed...there were plenty of people not willing to lynch laya for his little display.

e: ...although this is probably part of the reason you chose laya in the end, I'm assuming.

Exactly. Having a vig shot allows you to make calls town might not make on their own. Gonzaw looked scum for all money so I went with layabout. Turns out it wouldn't have mattered.

BTW VE, I really don't like the way you gave me that lynch with conditions. If I had chosen Meapak or Zealos (ROFL both town aligned) you could legitimately have said I was abstaining from the responsibility you gave me. Then when I lynch a different person you thought I was scum because I didn't abstain from the responsibility. If the whole purpose of making me king was to test my alignment you were going to interpret it badly either way.

It was why I had doubts about you. It is a lose lose for me if I am town. I had to lynch scum and it had to be someone other than Zealos or Meapak. Even then, it wasn't good enough.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:10 GMT

#4409

On August 01 2012 11:08 layabout wrote:

Show nested quote +

That just demonstrates the power of your role when used effectively, before that there had be a no lynch, a mis-lynch and a mis-nuke. Maybe there should have been more mafia KP. Of course the balance of themed games is always unstable but since town played very well and mafia played poorly there is not much to moan about.

I agree. I think less town KP would have been better. It maens the game drags on (town favoured) but it removes the ability of town to completely rape scum in a short period.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:14 GMT

#4410

On August 01 2012 11:04 layabout wrote:
Day1 was dominated by everyone and their mother thinking that kurumi was scum and then deciding not to lynch him.

Which was logical was it not? We had no info that the nukes were duds. If RoL had let us know this thatn obviously he would have been lynched.

Somewhere along the way sandroba became confirmed town and wbg and him had huge thread presence. Once this happened mafia had very little ability to control the thread and going after either one of them would very likely have gotten you lynch because there was next to no reason for a townie to doubt them. When you consider that day 2's lynch was decided from the offset it should be no surprise that mafia activity was so low and remained low for the rest of the game.

I disagree. The Day 2 lynch was a perfect opportunity for the major scum players to take control precisely because everyone was being passive. You have to take a chance to win.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:18 GMT

#4412

That's why I love playing with a town VE. Paranoia overwhelming. It keeps people honest and it separates the scum from the town.

ROFL I sided with Foolishness and pushed Syllo Day 1 but was never a real lynch prospect.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 02:26 GMT

#4415

I see, well it worked out in the end. Thanks I guess. I never realised you thought my scum play was that good.

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Australia3894 Posts

August 01 2012 03:38 GMT

#4421

On August 01 2012 12:21 gonzaw wrote:
I don't get how that Palmar wagon just happened out of thin air.
Like...BH died, and everybody was like "Yeah let's kill Palmar" and then other people were like "Okay" and that's it.

Day 3 and Palmar had done exactly what?

He clearly did not care about this game and so it was obvious he was mafia. With town in the position we were I would expect a town Palmar to actually participate. Have a read of the cases against him.