EPTsecond game.
3:00 PM PST should be midnight in CEST, so european players would prefer that one.
Newbie Mini Mafia XVI
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Vivax
22011 Posts
second game. 3:00 PM PST should be midnight in CEST, so european players would prefer that one. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
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Vivax
22011 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FsMke.jpg) | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
I opened this thread with the expectation of everyone pointing his finger at me for lurking so heavily the first half of day 1, for which I apologize now. I have had a REALLY shit day yesterday, and I didn't have any motivation whatsoever to get into the internet. I am not very willing to specify what happened yesterday since this is still the internet, I'll just mention that it involved me driving. Now that it's Sunday, I can lean back a bit, gonna have quite some shit going on from tomorrow on, but I feel that I can keep contributing to this game in spite of the circumstances, but don't expect me to be online whenever you are. Oh, and you should also know where I'm located to know the times I'm posting at: Austria/CET. Time to start Top-down: Like I already mentioned, I expected everyone to suspect me cause of policy lynching. Surprisingly, that's not the case. The policy talk quickly resulted into Release squeezing grush like a lemon throughout the game, but grush results to be a pretty dry one, just releasing unjuicy drops which only help to fortify the suspicions against him. Frankly I think Release has a really aggressive playstyle reminding me of my own last game, it's a great way to gain transparent information from other people and to a lesser extent from the accused ones, but also involves risks of all kind. The subsequent posts regaridng this case all revolve around the initial posts as tells. My verdict is: Release looks like he's tunneling pretty hard with the aggressive style, on the other hand I have to give him credit for getting out so much information from this case, town really IS busy due to this. Grush, well, if he's town I would be able to understand his somewhat angry, resignated answers as follow-up. If he's scum I would also be able to understand his high amount of one-liners with the least possible amount of information. However, his first posts really weren't helpful to town, so I'll treat him as suspicious, but not definitely guilty. I feel it's too early for me to cast a vote on him, he kind of reminds me of + Show Spoiler + superouman If he's the only alternative to a No lynch, you'll have my vote nontheless. I'm going to post more very soon, I'd prefer to keep my posts focused on single cases since I have to post a lot at once. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
s0lstice prefers to go on with policy discussion in the first posts and goes on with it until he outs for the night. When he's back, he completely drops grush and the policy discussion and puts his FoS on ha2etc. Release thinks grush is guilty. Pretty much everyone agreed on grushs post about 'nothing to discuss' being a really bad suggestion for town play. Many dropped the case or defended grush in spite of this. KtheZ notices the overconfidence of Release against grush and points out the danger of tunneling. But he also believes grush to have made scummy moves. I find his semi-calculations pretty strange tbh, but I guess it's his way of FoSing. ShiaoPi has one post in which he says people should stop tunneling grush and instead pressure ha2etc. . What strikes me here is that he wants to pressure ha2etc. for actually defending grush. I find this to be contradictory. Lazermonkey notices grush's suspicious posts and focuses on the people defending him in consequence after placing his FoS on grush. ha2etc. soft-defends grush. The_Zen_Man soft-defends grush. I'm keeping my summary of the swedes in this thread rather short cause there are complex cases developing around them and I think these deserve an in-depth analysis before a summary. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
grush: ha236: s0lstice, Release The_Zen_Man: Lazermonkey grush57: KTheZ s0lstice: Release: ha236 Guys, we're at close danger of a no-lynch. I'm not very satisfied with ha236 as option cause I find his first posts regarding Lazermonkey and Release to be true, but on the other hand he didn't make a single case except for OMGUS ones now in the end and instead only spent time defending grush and himself. It was a pretty bad day 1 imo, and it can get even worse if we will have to further lurk in the dark, you'll have my vote on ha236 for the sake of the lynch, but be aware of the fact that I'll gladly switch it for any other majority. ##vote ha236 @ s0lstice odd analysis? To me town play seems to be messed up atm and you should actually thank me for getting a bit of transparency in here. Every single and good player would make such a summary in a case before going on and accusing single persons. I doubt one would want to play with a narrow sight. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
Gimme a sec and I'll go through your case against The_Zen_Man. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
Btw, I can prove you are being selective since I didn't see you pick on the following summary yet. I just wonder if you are being selective on purpose cause raising suspicion on me would further increase the chance of a No lynch or if it's by mistake. While working on Lazermonkeys case against The_Zen_Man i found another 'needless summarization': + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed. Regarding The_Zen_Man case: I especially liked LazerMans point regarding the contradiction between the FoS on him, but the vote on grush. It looks like The_Zen_Man doesn't believe much in his own case. We also have to consider that The_Zen_Man mostly used ha236 points already posted to soft-defend grush. That would allow scum to deflect attention to ha236 again in case gursh flips green. That's about the latest points made by Lazermonkey, now to my own analysis, I'll be especially focusing on The_Zen_Man's first posts: On June 09 2012 18:11 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, just woke up(time difference suck). 1:I have read some of the grush-release discussion, and i can say that i did found Grush comment weird. Also some of his later post is also strange. I will post a analysis on him later. 2:But release, you are going against him to hard. You said it yourself before, that your comment is useless to anyone but grush. If it's like that, you should let others give their opinions about him, and focus on someone else for a bit. 3:Also, as to my opinions on lynching, i agree that in case there is a hard lurker and no scum reads we should lynch the lurker, as he is not contributing anyways. But lynching with not much information (like d1) will probably result in a misslynch. We still gain information even is there is no lynch, by observing how players act before lynch, what they vote for, reaction after lynch, etc. 1. Here's the broken promise: We still have no analysis on grush from you. In a lynch all liars environment you would already be in huge trouble. 2. Without the analysis, you proceed to soft-defend him. The problem about your posts is the way you do that: You tell Release to focus on someone else. Imagine if he suddenly switched target like you propose, that would make him look quite inconsistent...and scummy. 3. The opinions on lynching. I mean, seriously? This part confuses the hell out of me. We should lynch lurkers, but on the other hand you say it will probably result in a mislynch. Then you actually say that we might gain information without a lynch. How is that so? Both points lack reasoning behind them and contradict the other points in your post. Your opinion on lynching policy is wishy washy and no opinion, you seem to promote everything at once. The next posts show your support of ha, always disproving points others make against grush, but at the same time you emphasize your beliefs that he looks scummy. On June 10 2012 17:35 The_Zen_Man wrote: I really don't know how ha got to be one of the "top" scum reads on this game. His play does not seem scummy at all to me. I think the best d1 lynch is grush, and then we can think about how to proceed once he flips. Once ha gets into the crosshair, all of sudden you think it's best to drop all your defenses of grush and to lynch him. When Lazermonkey actually notices your suspicious behavior: On June 10 2012 20:14 The_Zen_Man wrote: The case against Lazermonkey: First of all, i would like to say that i am not making this in respond to Lazermonkey voring on me, but rather that he said that i did not have any ideas of my own. I think this quotation of mine reminds that he does have a point about that. You took many of the points about grushs defense from ha236, allowing you to deflect responsibility in case they turn out to be wrong. Looking at your and ha2's posts, your stances are soft and inconsistent as opposed to his, so I'll let you know: If there's a choice between a majority on you and a majority on ha2, I will pick the one against you. ##FoS The_Zen_Man | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
On June 11 2012 06:23 grush57 wrote: Yea if Ha flips red then it is either Zen man or KtheZ. Grush, you've already been attacked numerous times for your short posts without explications of your thought processes. Can you for once post something that is based on something visible? It would be nice if we knew the connection you see between Ha2, Zen and KtheZ. Don't forget you're still on the towns' list for your 'bad habits', whether knowingly or not. Right now someone could attack this statement of yours and you could post ANYTHING to justify it. You're intransparent. And I'd lynch you over ha2 anytime, just so you know. | ||
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Vivax
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We have a majority on him, that's for sure. I think even 6, not 5. Count me in in case he doesn't post a nukeproof defense. | ||
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##Vote The_Zen_Man | ||
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Vivax
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Let's get back to the real stuff, I think we have a good clue of the direction to move into:
I have no decisive scumreads yet. But I'll pick one of the three based on his post quality, activity levels and gut feeling: ##Vote grush57 | ||
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Vivax
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Vivax
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Then you say I didn't give scumreads yet. Just lol, the next spoiler already contains my read, I wonder why you bother criticizing me for something which is disproved in the next thing you mention. I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity. That was my defense to your feeble points, now I think you really deserve to be in the spotlight for what I'm about to post: I still have posted more useful cases than anyone I mentioned in my post above. I wonder why you suddenly start bothering me and not them. You are giving them incentives to keep lurking, and their lurking is one of the reason I don't have decisive scumreads on them. That, on the other hand, makes YOU suspicious. When I'm about to call out lurkers, you start accusing me with a really weak case. 'When you can't defend your scumbuddies, discredit their attackers' could be what you're plotting. You have also tunneled The_Zen_Man with a rather weak case (as opposed to my case against him). Maybe you knew of his alignment, and maybe you even suspected he could have a blue role. On the other hand, you keep protecting ha236 with words and grush with your behavior, while you completely ignore KtheZ. You have a history of tunneling mate, and your posts aren't less wishywashy than what you think of other people's posts, just check this out: + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2012 04:47 Lazermonkey wrote: So right now, we have not too much time untill lynching. We need to get something done here. With nine players there are 5(Lol) players that have received FoS/Votes unless I'm misstaken. These players are: grush Ha236 me(Lazermonkey) The_Zen_Man s0Lstice s0Lstice were also suspicious of KtheZ recently, although no FoS were placed. We need to know who are willing to vote for who, even if they are not your n1 scumread if we are going to get a decent lynch tonight. Right now my main scumread is The_Zen_Man but I am also willing to lynch grush. Ha236 has imo given quite solid response to the accusations against him and I'm not very keen on lynching him anymore. I am not sure about either s0lstice and KtheZ yet tho, as their cases were very recently posted. Look how scummy you actually are, even by your own definition. You make a summarization (I used that to prove s0lstice's selective view.) You moderate a lot: 'We need to get something done', 'We need to know who are willing to vote for who' and 'even if they are not your n1 scumread' I highlighted this cause it contradicts the points in your case against me. You say I'm scummy cause I tell who I'm willing to vote for, and then I'm scummy cause I'm not entirely sure of the scumreads on them when I vote. You actually promoted that in your moderation . Not to mention your stances on lynch candidates, the syntax of that part is 'I'm not sure on who to lynch', that's all one can get from what you wrote there. And while writing this I also realized that I should make you my first of suspects. You're screwing up pretty badly, and I hope that the still active part of town will recognize your mistakes (or slips) like I do.  ##unvote ##Vote Lazermonkey | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:46 grush57 wrote: YA CUZ HE'S MAFIA HURR DURR ##Vote: KtheZ Fix'd. Dunno what to think of this, but I think it wouldn't hurt to wait how the two handle it now. They are both on my to-'do'-list. Grush, care to spend more than a few minutes on your posts? | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
On June 13 2012 01:56 ShiaoPi wrote: Wait so you guys are actually claiming? grush57 vs. KtheZ? Didn't see a claim yet, but if both claim we will nail 1 scum for sure. One hour has passed and still nothing from KTheZ. Grush has been derping around all game long, but KTheZ is surpassing him at it right now. He's either a pretty bad townie or scum denying information. Pretty sloppy from both perspectives to announce he's gonna post something and then leave it unfulfilled. I don't think a scum grush would claim like that without a good reason, he isn't under pressure atm and if KtheZ flips town he's dead anyway. I'm very curious to see if KtheZ actually ends up replying. #unvote ##Vote KTheZ I still wanna hear opinions regarding the 'Lazermonkey vs. me-case'. And now that grush is most likely a townie he can stop playing the minimalist style  | ||
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Vivax
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ShiaoPi has been roleblocked, if he speaks the truth then there really is a DT among town. I've read the case on ha2 and Release went through his posts pretty thoroughly, but we have to set priorities guys, who to vote next?I'm not sure between grush and ha2. We have to make a safe choice or we'll end up LYLO. Punish grush for his weird, lying and ballsy playstyle or punish ha2 for his perfect lack of cases except for the OMGUS against Release and s0lstice? ##unvote | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
On June 12 2012 22:33 Vivax wrote: I said earlier that I would vote for Zen_Man in case that there was a majority possible on him. While I was writing that, town was about to lynch ha236. If I switched my vote at the point you find suspicious cause I didn't do so, then I would have put the town at danger of a no lynch. Gl the next day with no new information gained except for a nightkill that might allow mafia to make someone look suspicious or get rid of a better townie than the would-have-been-lynched one.A lynch is always better than no lynch, Zen_Man really appeared scummy. He didn't even claim. It was a solid lynch from a perspective of someone not knowing his alignment, and if he wouldn't have died, he just would have kept the circle of suspects bigger along with town's insecurity. On June 14 2012 04:00 Lazermonkey wrote: Okay, I kinda buy this one. Still, you weren't the first one to swap the vote. Guess why I only quote this. This quoted part is a good example of your way of bad thinking (or acting). 'Vivax doesn't swap his vote first, thus his argument is invalid and he is mafia'. Yeah sure. Really smart move bro. Read the quote. There's already the reason why I wasn't among the first to swap, it's cause it might have put the town at risk of a no lynch. You don't just say: 'I BUY IT', no, you're even so clever to say right next to it: 'BUT YOU'RE SUSPICIOUS CAUSE OF IT'. And this is how town should look at you after reading this:   -> + Show Spoiler + I really hope that other townies recognize how often you are contradicting yourself (within really close textparts!!!) in your desperate attempts to tunnel me. There are cases promising a ton of information, and while you try to blend in on each of these cases, your main objective remains to tunnel me, throughout a ton of pages. You're incredibly narrowsighted or you seek to spread as much distrust against me as possible. But I don't mind, once new information pops up I'm sure that I will discover further mistakes in your play. And I'll let you hang if and once I find scumtells there. Oh and btw. Grush is about to get lynched. If I don't switch vote now, I risk a no lynch and you'll throw that at me. If I switch vote now, you'll say I bandwagoned. Know what?Why should I risk a no lynch?I really don't care about what you have to say after all your slips, but you can try and keep tunneling. You better hope you're not the next scum to hang, cause I think that might be very possible. ##vote grush57 | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
On June 14 2012 05:48 grush57 wrote: It's kinda sad mafia already won and there just throwing out scumslips :'( Enlighten us on the scumslips. If you really are town, even if you die, you can still let town win. Just tell us about your thoughts, where are the slips, who do you think is suspicious etc. etc. Don't throw away all hope and go into emo mode.Write something that's not an anti-town lie this time. People might still believe you and switch their votes. 2 hours to go, that's a long time. | ||
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Vivax
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A good townie has to keep an overview of all players in the cases he decides to pursue, and that's not what you're doing. On the other hand it allows you to claim you're being consistent in your play if your target flips town. Just try to pull that card. You are excessively afraid to make other cases. Instead you post high content low information ones (wall of text ugh). You even admit that you made a weak point. Make good cases or don't make them at all. There is much better information out there you plainly ignore. | ||
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And like in this game, other townies just didn't care. I hope they will during day 3. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960¤tpage=20#385 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960¤tpage=20#393 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960¤tpage=23#443 You are actually right. I didn't think of the DT check, only about the roleblock and the alignment, should I apologize for not thinking of something? If grush did that he would write a book. I came home and saw another post from the monkey heating me up, and actually this makes me realize my accusations against him are OMGUS. But his case still sucks, and my defense is still solid. Go look that up and decide who of us is most likely saying something funded, he contradicts himself within 1 line of text, and his first list of suspicious players looks extremely scummy. You will find that in list in the first link up there. From a scumhunting point of view before the DT roleclaim happened, he WAS suspicious. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960¤tpage=13#247 Here voted s0lstice after defending from Release, without posting any case against s0lstice. Then he votes Release omgus style, but only after he voted for s0lstice for whatever reason. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342960¤tpage=13#247 Here that pattern repeats again. He defends from Release, and votes for grush based on something which has been repeated over and over by whole town. On the other hand, there's really not that much to say about grush, his play was...original. The point isn't as strong, but the repeating pattern 'make cases against 1, vote 2 for no reason' is kinda suspicious. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=494&topic_id=342960 The last post. He has been playing in incredibly inconsistent way regarding his very few votes, while mantaining a style trying to post as few as he can. He only starts engaging into discussion when there are townies pressuring him, and even then he keeps his posts as short as possible. Please consider what I wrote just now if I die tonight. If I survive, I will reevaluate the case against him with more information. For sure he's a lategame lurker when there is so much information available. He didn't post any lengthy cases yet, just defending and bandwagoning. | ||
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Vivax
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Vivax
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GG however, Lazer. Watched through both urs and ShiaoPi's posts, and ShiaoPi looked like he gave more DT tells. The breadcrumb post Release quoted is also the post which made me think you might be DT. | ||
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Vivax
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You should thank him, he carried you. | ||
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Vivax
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You caused a lot of confusion by pushing so many different cases, then constantly backing off. | ||
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Vivax
22011 Posts
Could you post mafia and observer qt? There you will see how much work there's involved in playing scum <_< | ||
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