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s0Lstice
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Apropos to learning from last game, I can't help but feel that we should strongly consider lynching lurkers if any do appear. Of course it's a question of degrees...I just don't want to see another Mufaa/skware. As far as whether or not to lynch, do you think you are putting the wagon before the horse here? What are your thoughts on putting this decision off until we see what cases develop, and how strong they are? Also, just food for thought, you list two out of the four scenarios as being no-lynch optimal; this of course leaves the other two as undecided/potentially good day 1 lynch setups. These being close to equal, wouldn't you rather lynch in the event we get lucky and hit scum? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped Also, i have a reccomendation, please people, dont use PAST games as a guide, Why are you discouraging the use of meta arguments? Town needs to use any information available to them to hunt scum; having a firm example of how a person plays as town/scum is definitely valuable information. So (in essence) you say don't use past games to inform your ideas/opinions on the current game. Yet you do this twice in the same post: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped I like the discussion about the NL on day 1, having played mafia 13 and having a lot of lurkers got me thinking about using day 1 lynch and calling out lurkers is the best for the town, especially those lurkers who goes super active the last hours of the day, we have to keep an eye on them. + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped the last (and only) game i played, town got fucked (in part) thanks to this...i was mafia, lurking, bad town play and bad reads based on past games granted us the victory, only 1 mafia died thanks to a very lucky shot. Can you explain this contradiction? Also, this caught my eye: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:46 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped If someone wants to be "town leader" please take all this in account, im all in for some kind of town guidance and not a FFA f**kfest. Why on Earth are you trying to get us to talk about who should be leading us? This will do nothing but create a power struggle, and a lot of wasted time. Each townie needs to lead him/herself first and foremost. ##FoS: Unforgiven_ve Now to Miltonkram. Your early vote and subsequent retraction, combined with your apologies reminds me a lot of recent history (Milton was scum last game). It looks like you are being aggressive without conviction, aka being aggressive just for the sake of looking aggressive. I'm watching you too. | ||
s0Lstice
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But yes, in short Xatalos, I am with you on Unforgiven_ve | ||
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Are you suspicious of sciberbia at all? What are your thoughts on Milton's and Unforgiven's play thus far? | ||
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There's a lot going on in the thread, so you should have plenty to talk about. There are 2 cases with some momentum (Unforgiven and Eishi_Ki), cattivik is being hyper aggressive and has asserted sciberbia is surely town, we have two other lurker besides you so far (Ange777, suki), and Milton has been sort of all over the place. Talk about any of these. | ||
s0Lstice
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I can sympathize with the language issue, it's not something that should be held against you. That said, your defense was pretty jumbled. You didn't touch on why you discouraged meta-game arguments, and the related contradiction I asked you to explain. I found it difficult to follow who your defense was specifically addressing. You predicted that we would question why you are telling people to slow down with their accusations, and you're absolutely right there. It's very weird for a townie to tell everyone not to pursue their reads aggressively. The clock is always ticking, and 48 hours goes by quickly. I don't want to lock in my vote until I hear more from you, but your defense has done nothing to allay my suspicions. People accusing cattivik Consider both sides of the spectrum. Can you really not see a logical town motivation behind his posts thus far? Getting in everyone's faces, tunneling Eishi_Ki, and staunch, energetic defense of his actions. He has been very active thus far. I don't agree with his methods, but they sure as hell read town to me. Don't make mountains out of molehills. Consider not just his words, but the aims behind them. Cattivik and Eishi_Ki Frankly I think you are both wrong about each other. I'm not as sure on Eishi_Ki as I am on Cattivik, but I can say definitively that your (Cattavik) case on Eishi_Ki is really weak. You decided to vote for him based on the fact that his schedule means he can't be around during lynch time, and him wondering if it's a good thing that he isn't around during that time. Regarding that second point, others in the thread were discussing about how scum and lurkers can sway the vote at the last minute. You are making too much out of what amounts to basically nothing, and longer you pursue it, the less objective it's going to become. Be self-aware of tunneling, and consider outside input on your suspicions. | ||
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Nobody is going to accuse you of bandwagoning if you are directly asked your opinion on someone. That said, what is your opinion on Unforgiven? | ||
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If you can't be bothered to share your thoughts, even if they are only fledgling thoughts, then why are you playing? Why should we keep you alive? At best you are a rogue vote, and at worst you are scum. Do you not see that from our point of view, you not wanting to comment on the events happening around you makes you look useless and scummy? The longer you do this, the more and more I want to kill you off day 1 so you aren't left herp derping around later on. | ||
s0Lstice
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I did somehow miss that first part of your argument against Eishi_Ki. Bandwangoning can definitely be scummy, but on its own its not a sure-fire scum tell. Sometimes people just think alike and want their voices heard. It's every townie's perogative to build up content and contribute, and it's just not possible for it to all be original. This is especially true when the sample size is small (day 1). Regarding how he defends, he pretty much addressed your concerns, The reason it looked paltry is because your case is paltry. There just isn't a lot to explain. He's not around at X time, can't be helped. He posted his thoughts on you, which were similar to what others were thinking. And the joke was...well, a joke. He moved on because he was done with your points, as I see it. I won't try to dissuade you further, but know that I think your case is not very strong at the moment. | ||
s0Lstice
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Cattivik has been 100% confident in all of his opinions so far. Frankly it would be more strange if he wasn't. His reasoning is that sciberbia got in the thread early, and really got discussion going. He posted a day 1 strategy that, while not popular, was good intentioned and sound enough logically. He stuck to it, and wasn't shy about it. To me it looked like he got his role pm, then got right to it crafting a good post that would get us talking and perhaps give us a direction. While I'm not about to guarantee that sciberbia is town, I read his posts as pretty strongly town; cattavik just took the sentiment to the extreme. His pursuit of Eishi_Ki is similarly extreme. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with his methods or conclusions, but the objective is to smoke out scum. I just don't see scum putting themselves in the spotlight so deliberately like he is. Scum in general are terrified of being held accountable for positions they took in the past, so they don't come down hard on any issue without a lot of thought and a measure of caution. | ||
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Just really quick, I want to point out a reading error in your case sciberbia. + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2012 11:18 sciberbia wrote: But then he analyzes the possible outcomes of the vote from the perspective that Miltonkram is town. Notice that suki considers the scenario that I am mafia. At that point in the game, it looked pretty damn unlikely that me and Milton were both mafia. So why is suki analyzing what a townie Miltonkram stands to gain from that vote? What's the point of that analysis? His possible lynch outcomes all assume that Milton is scum, not town. He is saying that, as scum, bussing you extremely early would give him big town credit if you were scum as well. He also would have deniability if you flipped town, because he did retract his vote after all. It is still a weird analysis, as scum don't bus eachother without a strong reason. That out of the way, I agree that his first real meaty post wasn't all that meaty. All it needed to be was the final paragraph, where he comes to the decision that Milton is town. There is no reason to waste all that space entertaining the notion that Milton is scum if you are going to conclude he is town. What's more, the end conclusion has to match the dissertation. If you are going to give Milton a bunch of strikes for scummy behavior, it better be countered with more points that highlight his townieness if the end conclusion is that he is town. I didn't see this happening. This could be scummy play, or just bad analysis by a townie not sure how to contribute. Need to keep going to decide how to read this. Concerning the second post. I noticed something: On May 31 2012 23:51 suki wrote: --snipped First, the ability to change your vote kind of lessens the importance of Milton's extremely fast voting, and sort of discounts a lot of my initial suspicions of him On May 31 2012 23:51 suki wrote: --snipped And yet he still sits on the fence about sciberbia, and 'everyone else'. Just like s0lstice, I find it suspicious that he's so aggressive without conviction. He says his suspicions based on Milton's aggressiveness are reduced because he found out you can change your vote, but then maintains that Milton is being super aggressive, and it's making him suspicious. To me this look like circular logic, and it sticks out. In his defense post, this immediately jumped out: On June 01 2012 14:50 suki wrote: --snipped For what it's worth, I've only changed my mind on someone once, and that is on Cattivik. Let me go over the accusations brought to me. On June 01 2012 14:50 suki wrote: --snipped Let me state it really clearly here: I wanted to acknowledge to s0lstice that it was possible to read Cattivik as townie, but that didn't mean that he had to be townie. I never retracted my suspicions on Cattivik, and in fact asked him to start talking about other players, so that there would be more information about him other than a petty quarrel between one other player. This again is in the same post, and it seems contradictory. Changing his mind on cattavik presumably means that he stopped being so suspicious, yet later he says his suspicions have not changed. If you can see both town and scum motivation on a players actions, then you really have nothing, no case. A case begins when an action reads purely scum. Regarding the accusation of piling on suspicion to players who are already under suspicion, I think you are assigning too much weight there. It's a small game, and if you feel suspicious of someone, chances are so does somebody else. Sometimes they are going to beat you to the punch in posting them as well. Suki touched on this I believe. Either you post, and catch flak for bandwagoning, or you stay silent, and catch flak for being silent. Bandwagoning is most useful to look at after someone gets lynched. You look at who pushed it, who were late comers to the case, and who was against it. You also say that when he does speak about what's going on around him, it looks non-commital and political. Here I have to agree. This does look suspicious. To sum up: I think there are enough points here that the case is worth pursuing. Suki, can you respond to the stuff I added to what sciberbia said? | ||
s0Lstice
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Also Milton...seriously? That huge case against a lurker? The problem with a lurker is obvious, they are lurking. Your 'most damning point' is a non-point. She (I think she is a she? sorry if I am wrong Ange) is playing two games. We even talked about it in the pre-game. She was subbed in to TL Mafia LV before this game started. Making enough time for one game is hard enough, let alone two. This does not forgive her for lurking, she simply is choosing to favor the other game, and maybe will get lynched because of it. How you read this as purely scummy makes no sense to me. I'd like everyone else to have a look at Milton's filter...he is climbing into scum territory on my list. | ||
s0Lstice
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In response to your specific points Milton, really the only thing of substance is the timing. A busy player who's name pops up is going to feel extra incentive to chime in. This is true if the player is either town or scum. Any analysis of content is futile, as there is basically no content. She could easily be half-assing it by popping in to the thread, taking the current temperature, and accuse the most scummy person at the time. This could also be lurking scum. If she isn't actively pursuing her win condition, then she's either a useless townie, or is lurking scum and actually IS pursuing her win condition. Either way, the answer is to lynch. This is obvious, and it struck me as strange that you would write up a huge post about it. | ||
s0Lstice
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I'm leaving my FoS where it is. When he finally had a little time to scum hunt, he pointed the finger at suki. It was a novel idea at the time, but to me it lacked effort. Look at sciberbia's post compared to his. Now, not all accusations have to have a big word count to be effective, but his effort just looks lazy. Does the reasoning he laid out really warrant a vote? Not to me. He says Suki never pressured anyone, which is ironic because a big part of sciberbia's case is that he bandwagon pressured a lot of people. Whether he was first on the scene or not, he has pressured milton, unforgiven, vivix, and superouman. Saying he hasn't pressured anyone is just false. His case is just 4 short points. The first I just discussed. Past that, his other points are a short filter, safe day 1 play, and some nonsense about taunting cattivik to butter him up for a day 2 vote. It's just not a lot to go on. Keep that in mind. In his defense posts, he says we should discuss everything and nothing at the same time. Don't throw FoS around, or votes. Don't use meta arguments. What is his idea of hunting scum? Those two things are very important tools for applying pressure. He says we need structure, but never says what that is outside from some leader emerging to tell us what to do. His message remains totally unclear. Wait, be smart about scumhunting, and let people talk...but don't use half the tools in your arsenal to get them to talk. He doesn't follow his own rules. He posts a 'meh' case on Suki and then votes right away. If he was following his own rules, I'd think he'd at least wait for a defense before throwing his vote around. Bottom line is I like that he has started to make some effort to hunt scum, and I realize that he has had to spend a lot of time defending himself, but there are still so many inconsistencies in his play that my FoS stays put. I will keep watching. On refresh I see there's a lot of other stuff going on right now so I'd better hurry up and post! | ||
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Like heist said, the only way I think you are going to save yourself is to do some actual, hardcore analysis on the game so far. You didn't give yourself a lot of time, so the odds are against you posting something that's going to be good enough. Stop defending yourself and hunt scum. | ||
s0Lstice
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Your accusations on me are accurate. I realized earlier that I have spent too much time considering other cases, and the players they involve. In my view, helping defend someone I think is town, and lending or subtracting weight to ongoing cases corresponding to my own reads is pro-town, but I need to hit the filters and work a lot harder on finding scum. I'll share my results as soon as I can. | ||
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sciberbia, the issue that is causing Ange to lurk will still be there after today. She claims she will post more, but saying and doing are not the same. | ||
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I'm satisfied with a lurker lynch in light of the fact that there just aren't any other strong cases at the moment. Ange seems capable of doing analysis, but there is no guarantee she will devote more time in the future. Could be busy townie or lurking scum. Superouman is just a rogue vote, could be clueless towny or tricksy scum. I wish we could lynch both at once, but Ange777 is a start. | ||
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On June 02 2012 04:06 Ange777 wrote: I hereby proclaim that I will dedicate the weekend to playing Mafia! Don't spend your whole weekend on the computer but yes, more is definitely needed. The analysis on Suki was good. Especially good considering it was rushed. I spent time in his filter when sciberbia posted his case on him, and saw a fair amount of the same things he saw. I added a few more points to it, as I thought (and still do) that there is something there. The point you added is important. Saying you have a sure scum read and not fighting for it when there is ample time is really scummy. I'm not sure why I didn't lock on to this as well; perhaps because I was strongly considering lynching you at the same time he switched his vote to you. To everyone else, consider now what Ange spending more time here would look like. I think in light of her posts we should strongly consider keeping her alive for the time being. I want to instead suggest that we return to Suki. Sciberbia, myself, and now Ange have spent some time on the case against him, and I think it stands up pretty well. I see now that sciberbia has posted about voting for Suki. My answer is yes, I will vote for him. | ||
s0Lstice
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Ange777 made some good points about him, but then flung shit at everybody who continued to question her. I asked for analysis, there was enough time and plenty of content in the past to comment on. Instead you made a snap judgement on unforgiven and then basically insta tunneled him. I hate how this day is ending. Heist, if Suki flips scum, you're in deep. You came in late and changed your vote to another pointless vote, splitting us further. I'm in an awkward position because I've suspected both Suki and Unforgiven. Vivax makes a good point about suspecting both being logically unsound. With that said, I'm not feeling too great about Suki being lynched, as my read on unforgiven is stronger. I just don't see the Unforgiven lynch happening today. It has to be Suki, here and now, or nobody. ## unvote ## Vote: Suki | ||
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On June 02 2012 06:37 heist wrote: I changed bacause I was not very condifent in either a Suki or Ange77 lynch and my Superouman lynch was useless. You agree that Unforgiven seems more scummy. I don't like how you are giving up to commit to a worse read. That's cool, because I don't like how you don't like it. What fantasy world are you living in where an Unforgiven lynch is possible right now? If I vote with my stronger read, there is a serious threat of a no-lynch. I choose Suki over this alternative. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 02 2012 04:37 Ange777 wrote: Okay ... seems like I have to step back from a Unforgiven defense ... What are you implying here? That if I flipped red you would be even more convinced that Suki is scum? If you truly think both of us scum there would be no way Suki wants to vote for me. He could easily stick to his vote on you and claim that he is still 100% convinced of you being mafia. High chance for other people to vote for me anyway, so why would he have to vote for me, make himself suspicious of vote switching and bandwaggoning? Furthermore, losing a scum buddy on day 1 would be awful for him. He would indeed prefer a NL instead of my lynch and therefore NOT vote for me! You just made yourself highly suspicious! + Show Spoiler + On June 02 2012 05:37 heist wrote: You are literally going after everyone who has found you suspicious. And these are all pretty weak claims. You start going off on Ange77 for "siding with you too strongly"? I think you are taking bandwaggoning a bit too far. She had her own analysis. You somehow tie together both suki and ange77 as mafia scum? What??? You explicitly state that you are going to disregard Solstice and don't bother to defend yourself. I am not completely convinced about Suki and the main accusation right now seems to refer to the switch vote to Ange77. We decided we wanted a day 1 lynch. We needed a majority. Perhaps he wanted to lay down his vote incase he missed the deadline. Bandwaggoning I find is useless accusation in and of itself. In a complete body of work it can greatly support a claim. But we need this majority for a lynch and I can completely see him changing his vote with Unforgiven's case rapidly losing steam. My vote is currently useless. I will be changing to Unforgiven_ve. His recent behavior is really undermining my previous judgment. ##Unvote ##Vote: Unforgiven_ve So no, I don't think I'll be backing off him, thanks though. | ||
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On June 02 2012 07:38 Unforgiven_ve wrote: Lolz, I rule, bunch of noobs This is just rude. Cut it out. It takes 7 votes to lynch someone, and you spent the time before the lynch flopping around like a fish out of water, reduced to pleading for votes. It's not our fault you drew so much suspicion for playing like shit. | ||
s0Lstice
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Unforgiven + Show Spoiler + Do you see anybody else here calling other people names? Want to know why it's just you? Because you're being an asshole. Assholes insult people, and then tell them not to take it personal, like that makes it ok. This being a game doesn't give you license to be condescending and disrespectful. In fact, it's the opposite. If you want respect, you show respect. I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, you have made this game less fun with your recent posts. | ||
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Lets have a look at what he has been doing to hunt scum: + Show Spoiler + For most of day 1, he has had one target, and that is Vivix. His first accusation against him contained the following points: a perceived contradiction, and his views/defense of sciberbia. This is the contradiction. Vivix says he sees the reason behind sciberbia's no-lynch argument, but still prefers to lynch. Seeing the logic and worthyness of considering of an idea, but still coming down on the other side of it is not a contradiction, provided you supply the reasons for doing so. Vivix does; he says he still wants to lynch to get rid of lurkers right off the bat or act on a strong scum read, and get lynch information earlier rather than later. His views and defense on sciberbia have been covered a lot, so I'll just say one thing about this. Vivix has been steadfast in his convictions consistently. At the time, the sample size was small and no pattern had developed yet, so the suspicion is warranted. As the game goes on however, nobody should be surprised that Vivix was so sure on his first town read. He is consistently steadfast in all of his opinions. Moving on. He posts some filler before addressing Vivix again. The filler is basically asking Eishi_Ki to clarify his thoughts on Vivix, asks Vivix to post more, and pressures the lurkers. Nothing really scummy here, he is just doing due diligence on his case. His second address to Vivix has one repeated point and one new one: Vivix' sure read on sciberbia, and his hasty vote on Eishi_Ki. His read on sciberbia I've talked about already...his vote on Eishi_Ki represented his first scum hunting target. He went after him full force and voted. Again, these are consistent with Vivix' aggressive play. He defends a town read aggressively, and pursues a scum read aggressively. Next he addresses someone new, and its Unforgiven. He chimes in with his thoughts, which is fine. It's the current subject matter. He uses a lot of words to say that he agrees on the suspicions, but will reserve judgement. It's a very safe stance. He follows this up with further safe pressure on the lurkers. His third address to Vivix. He again uses a lot of words to say basically: I don't agree that your high activity and extremeness makes you absolutely town, and you may be doing it to obscure the scummy things you do. This is trumped up WIFOM + Show Spoiler + Vivix as scum thinks, I'll be careful but still contribute. But wait! That is what they are expecting! I'll be aggressive to throw them off my trail. But wait, maybe they are expecting me to expect that so I'll be more careful. But wait! etc etc His fourth address to Vivix. He harps again on Vivix' opinion of sciberbia. He keeps driving this point, and damns him for finding a townie and not hunting scum. Except....Vivix has been hunting his top scum read: Eishi_Ki. This just makes no sense. Vivix scum hunt was aggressive and obvious. There is no excuse for ignoring it in this context. You know who else kept harping on Vivix' opinion of sciberbia? Suki Something else Suki did was to drop his main suspicion in favor of another target. Heist does this too, stating that he is giving Vivix the benefit of the doubt, and then votes for a lurker. Not the lurker that has had the most buzz going for a policy lynch, but Superouman. Essentially a wasted vote. In summary: -Pursues case on Vivix on the basis of three weak point -his fast read and defense of sciberbia -WIFOM on how his aggression is a scum ruse -spending time confirming townies and not hunting scum, even though he is -Only other scum hunting is lurker pressure, and 'wait and see' on Unforgiven -Drops his main read on the basis of 'giving the benefit of the doubt' -votes for a lurker that had no policy lynch buzz as of yet Events surrounding the lynch: + Show Spoiler + I'll start here, when the votes counted thusly: + Show Spoiler + Day 1 Votecount Sciberbia (1): Miltonkram, Superouman Eishi_Ki: Vivax Unforgiven_ve: Xatalos, Suki Suki (2): Unforgiven_ve, Sciberbia Ange777 (5): Miltonkram, Vivax, Xatalos, Eshi_Ki, suki Superouman (1): Heist This is shortly after Ange shows up. She takes the time to defend herself some and promises a scum read soon. While she is away doing that, sciberbia makes a post trying to organize everyone onto one person, and the votes on Ange go to 6 when I vote. Ange comes back and posts her read on Suki. It is solid, compelling, and, as we know now, dead on. She votes Suki right away, giving him 3 votes. Xatalos responds that he likes her contribution, and sciberbia comes back trying to illustrate how lynching suki is the best option for us as a group based on our stated convictions. Unforgiven chimes in to reinforce his Suki vote. I mention as well that her case is pretty good, and combined with all else, would draw my vote if he was our choice. The atmosphere at was pretty anti-Suki, and only getting worse. With Ange posting a very solid scum read, and a couple people suggesting she should live. If this goes further, Suki would definitely replace Ange as the consensus choice. Now Ange pursues Unforgiven, and pretty hard too, dropping a quick FoS. Xatalos follows up with his earlier suspicions and votes for him. This is a shake and bake counter movement to the building case on Suki. While this is going on, Suki draws another vote from Milton. That makes 4. This is when Heist enters, when Suki is in a lot of danger, and there is a counter-movement swelling. He jumps all over Unforgiven. He went from non-commital on Unforgiven to all out war without any in-between, right at the time when the case was countering Suki's. He flat out yells at Vivix to not vote for Suki. He removes his vote on Superouman citing it as useless, only to place it on another useless case that had the third most votes. The only conceivable use it has is to stop the lynch of Suki. With 12 minutes left, he switches to Suki once it is clear that he is the consensus choice. This gave us majority on Suki, but Xatalos had already agreed that he would vote to ensure a lynch vs a no-lynch if it came to it, so it was going to happen anyway. What it also does is give him some deniability when Suki flipped scum. Not a lot, but some. In summary: -swoops in when the pressure on Suki is getting bad -pursues a useless counter-case vigorously against a player who he has been ambivalent about -switches his useless vote from one place to another useless place -was one of the very last to come in to vote for suki I think he has tied himself pretty strongly to Suki. What do others think about this? | ||
s0Lstice
United States1830 Posts
In summary: A) Pursues case on Vivix on the basis of three weak points i) his fast read and defense of sciberbia ii) WIFOM on how his aggression is a scum ruse iii) spending time on confirming townies and not hunting scum, even though he is B) Only other scum hunting is lurker pressure, and a 'wait and see' on Unforgiven C) Drops his main read on the basis of 'giving the benefit of the doubt' D) Votes for a Lurker that had no policy lynch buzz as of yet | ||
s0Lstice
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His support of Ange came only after she had started attacking Unforgiven. I feel that's pretty important. Yes she also accused Suki, but Heist was attempting to add his voice to her case on Unforgiven to make it appear more attractive. He supports the driving force in the counter-movement to Suki's lynch (Ange's argument on Unforgiven), and also goes after her target with gusto. Both things contribute to stop the lynch of Suki. He was doing everything in his power to make the case on Unforgiven gain leverage. Also, about him easily blending in on the Ange777 bandwagon. When she came in and started posting, that bandwagon lost a lot of steam. It became increasingly clear to him, as it did to me, that the Ange777 lynch was not going to happen in light of her last minute heroics. The pressure had definitely shifted to Suki as the next best lynch target, and Heist had to jump in and do his best to abate the movement to his scumbuddy. Lastly, you say his Superouman vote was only in place until a Suki majority was possible. This would be fine if he had switched to Suki, but he didn't. He switched to the case with the 3rd most number of votes. Again, the only explanation I can find for this is to stop the lynch on Suki. The contradiction you bring up is interesting, and I had missed it. It makes it seem more likely that his thoughts on Suki being town were just posturing, considering how quickly he abandons the thought. | ||
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I'm not saying it should sway you one way or another, just a suggestion. I need to have a look myself. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1830 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: Just a general question was heist that obvious as scum? I feel really bad for having defended him all day I had my eye on him, and wanted to see what he did around lynch time. His tunneling of Unforgiven was all the confirmation I needed for my read. In some coaching PM's, Marvellosity mentioned to me that it was more likely that people would be confused by his eventual vote on suki, so I don't think you should be tarred and feathered or anything ;D Also I want to take the time to say a BIG thank you to both Marvellosity and Mementoss for their helpful coaching. It is such a wonderful resource, and I encourage everyone to make use of it if you play in further newbie games. | ||
s0Lstice
United States1830 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:55 Xatalos wrote: Haha, I'm surprised the ObsQT didn't figure me out until the very end. It was pretty obvious though after I shot Unforgiven_ve... I had you figured out sooner than that ;D Here's a PM to Marvel: To: marvellosity [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Re: Newbie Mini XV Date: 6/8/12 09:32 I must confess I as a spectator I haven't been as studious. Austin- I'm fairly certain he is town, based on ange's actions against suki. Plus he could have caused a no-lynch day 3 without much effort or risk, but chose not to. Must be town. Milton- I think he is town as well. I've seen him play scum and this doesn't look like that. He has made a case on Ange that was not without sound reasoning at the time. He pursued Heist when he could have just as easily blended in on another target if he was scum. Unforgiven- I am perplexed. He has reduced himself to insulting people and just giving orders like 'do this, do that.' If he is scum, he bussed both of his teammates (very unlikely). What's more, he was the first guy to attack suki. Despite his confusing play, I think he must be town. That leaves ShiaoPi and Xatalos. The obvious answer is ShiaoPi based on how he refused to vote for heist. Also, he replaced Golden, who weakly tunneled someone who I read as strong town. Making a case on Vivax is easy peasy for scum, because he was playing recklessly/aggressively. That said, he really was trying to hunt scum. He made reads and pursued them, though his conclusions always appeared wrong to me. He has been constant and steadfast in his defense of heist, which would be REALLY odd if they were scum teammates. My conclusion here is that he is a misguided townie. I've also seen his townie play, and this looks pretty similar. I think the last scum is Xatalos. I think he wisely bussed heist, and got some mad townie cred for doing so. With people like Unforgiven being generally confusing and anti-town, and ShiaoPi strongly defending a guy who just flipped scum, he can bus heist and watch while those two get lynched next. He was the last to vote for suki, and was, like heist, pushing Unforgiven to suck votes away from suki on day 1. His direct interactions with heist are also strange. He votes for him on the day vivax is going to be lynched, but votes vivax in the end. He gets town cred for voting heist when he eventually flipped scum, and doesn't get a lot of blame for lynching vivax since he was a driving force for it. This is an excellent bus, he doesn't hurt his teammate too badly and also helps himself a lot. Also, over the course of the game he was posting a lot of non-content content. His only real scum hunt was Unforgiven...another very easy case to make with the language barrier and his confusing posts. so yea, I'm going with Xatalos | ||
s0Lstice
United States1830 Posts
It's interesting I didn't indict Xatalos for the same reason I did Heist. I think it was probably because he was attacking Unforgiven along with me, and as sciberbia said, his filter was looking pretty town. Something else important is the danger of making connection assumptions before a flip. I think I auto cleared Xatalos based on my suspicion of heist, because no two scum are going to tunnel the same target to stop their scumbuddy from being lynched, right? And again, he was also attacking my target at the time. Ironic that Xatalos even cautioned against connection assumptions on day 1. Good advice! Wish I had remembered. | ||
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