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This is a blatantly ridiculous thing to do, yet it looks like I won't be able to push the case against Ange777.
To me, it looks like people go extra soft on her to whiteknight.
You better pray suki is not gonna flip town, which i believe he will.
##unvote Ange777
##vote suki
Ready to vote for Ange777 again once there is the prospect of a majority.
Also, remember that unforgiven_ve was the first to push the case against suki. That will reveal a lot about his alignment too.
OH, and Ange777 is actually following that case while suspecting unforgiven at the same time.
Why exactly would you suspect someone of being mafia if he was the first pushing the case against someone you believe is mafia?
Looks like we have a scumtell.
The damn deadline is getting close.
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No defense from suki yet.
O.Golden_ne is acting scummy by not voting until the very last. Let's see how it ends and if he votes at all.
Suki is dead, heist will vote for him.
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Also guys, in case Suki flips town and mafia kills me in the night:
Remember the case against Ange777, but don't forget about superouman. Prioritize Ange777.
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On June 02 2012 06:25 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:14 Vivax wrote:
This is a blatantly ridiculous thing to do, yet it looks like I won't be able to push the case against Ange777.
To me, it looks like people go extra soft on her to whiteknight.
You better pray suki is not gonna flip town, which i believe he will.
##unvote Ange777
##vote suki
Ready to vote for Ange777 again once there is the prospect of a majority.
Also, remember that unforgiven_ve was the first to push the case against suki. That will reveal a lot about his alignment too.
OH, and Ange777 is actually following that case while suspecting unforgiven at the same time.
Why exactly would you suspect someone of being mafia if he was the first pushing the case against someone you believe is mafia?
Looks like we have a scumtell.
The damn deadline is getting close. What exactly is your so-called scumtell? That I side with Unforgiven on the case against Suki? If you read correctly, I changed my opinion on Unforgiven after his recent posts and only after my case on Suki. I don't understand the problem.
THIS IS A LIE, you still have a FoS on him in the last substantial post. Check the filter guys!
And this last post about unforgiven:
On June 02 2012 06:19 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:09 Xatalos wrote:
Ange777, I also ask you to look at Unforgiven_ve's filter again. I'm still leaning town on Suki and would hate to lynch a townie just to gain some information. I would consolidate on a Unforgiven lynch as I have posted my concerns about his recent play. Still I believe Suki to be more scummy.
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You said you changed your opinion=You don't suspect him while you actually still suspect him while he's being the main pusher of the suki case. You can't push the case while suspecting the one who started it. It's mafia play. It would be plain stupid by mafia to push a case against their own.
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I doubt I can change things now that I'm proven dead wrong. No, I'm not dead. There still are lurkers.
I will keep scumhunting and ignore accusations against me day 2 simply because I might not be able to defend myself in the light of this event and I don't want to waste energy on it.
My suspects against Ange777 were genuine. Her reads were without doubt better, and i got fooled by Sukis' postings.
However, mafia stepping out to defend someone who has a majority against him isn't mafia. That's usually where the bussing starts.
Feel free to call me a bloody noob. But think twice before thinking I'm mafia.
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For the newcomers: I've had my name changed from Cattivik to Vivax during the game. Just so you don't get confused from the posts i linked to.
Anyway, in light of the events I'll drop the FoS bomb.You might have noticed I like direct accusations.
FoS: Eishi_Ki , then Miltonkram.
Stop suspecting heist, he was the first to defend Ange777 against my accusations and kept that stance throughout this whole last phase. He would have wanted her to get lynched if he was mafia.
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Those are really good posts regarding heist, s0lstice, but his reactions in the last hours don't fit into mafia play.
He supported Ange777 and his vote on superouman was against the grain, but only until the majority on suki was possible.
He could have easily blended in on the Ange777 bandwagon and try to get rid of a townie lurker becoming dangerous for the mafia in the last hours.
However, when going further in the filter, something caught my eye:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:05 heist wrote:
Guys I want your opinion on Unforgiven's recent behavior. We only have about an hour and I will not allow a NL.
I find the following suspicious: vivax, unforgiven_ve, superouman. I am comfortable with lynching any of them.
Ange77 and Suki both read town to me, although if they are the majority, I am siding toward a Suki lynch.
6:05 suki reads town to him.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 heist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:14 Vivax wrote:
This is a blatantly ridiculous thing to do, yet it looks like I won't be able to push the case against Ange777.
To me, it looks like people go extra soft on her to whiteknight.
You better pray suki is not gonna flip town, which i believe he will.
##unvote Ange777
##vote suki
Ready to vote for Ange777 again once there is the prospect of a majority.
Also, remember that unforgiven_ve was the first to push the case against suki. That will reveal a lot about his alignment too.
OH, and Ange777 is actually following that case while suspecting unforgiven at the same time.
Why exactly would you suspect someone of being mafia if he was the first pushing the case against someone you believe is mafia?
Looks like we have a scumtell.
The damn deadline is getting close. If it's blatantly rediculous, DO NOT DO IT. You are almost confident suki is town, why are you placing your vote on him??? We still have a bit of time, closer to an hour. Now it just looks like you are bussing.
12 minutes later, 'It looks like I am bussing'. Just saying, the choice of words kinda looks strange in light of the previous post, simply because you believe I am bussing when you don't believe he is mafia.
Can't really call his post regarding ridiculousness of the vote a defense of suki cause he just comments on my actions, but I've already announced that I would not risk a NL.
Also people seem to have forgotten about O.Golden_ne, he has been replaced, still his behaviour was more of a lurking one. We have to see if his replacement might end up being mafia.
It's important to not forget about him and go through his filter, which I will do after this post.
Anyway, my updated FoS: heist, Eishi_Ki for being defended by suki and targeting unforgiven, xatalos and me.
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I announced I would go through O.Golden_ne's posts:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298¤tpage=6#103O.Golden_ne's filter mostly coincides with that of heist when it comes to changing and setting trends. To his defense, he didn't question my read regarding sciberbia=townie as much as suki and heist. Not so good: He acknowledged mafia first post is improbable, however he didn't produce any information regarding the matter by himself, he grappled onto miltonkram's opinion instead.
+ Show Spoiler +
I've ignored the next two posts which were basically mudthrowing. Feel free to look em up.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298¤tpage=10#196Quite decisive post, he tries the same maneuver as heist and wants to deflect attention from suki. You might think now, I've done that too. There is a difference between my behavior and that of heist and O.Golden: First of all, heist and O.Golden never say that suki might be town like I did. If that's not keeping one's head low, I don't know, they preferred to emphasize the importance of a lurker lynch instead of attacking the case on suki like I did, which would bite you in the ass later if you were mafia. It's just safer play for scum. You know my style, I'm posting a lot, I'm aggressive, I don't fear making mistakes when I'm completely sure of my case. Then I have been pushing the D1 lynch on Ange777 from the start, heist preferred to vote for another lurker (superouman)...And O.Golden_ne didn't vote at all. He still had plenty of time to vote, but he kept lurking until his party evening, while stirring suspicions against other players, never taking a hard stance.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298¤tpage=9#178This is one of my analysis posts. Look how i resume that suki actually supported some of the pressure on Eishi_Ki, I forgot his stance on Eishi when lynch time came and got fooled into believing he's townie. This is his stance on Eishi_Ki: Eishi_Ki seems bandwagon-y in his first post. By the time he posts, Cattivik already has heist and golden posting their suspicions on him. He then calls out Milton for targetting sciberbia for... going against the grain? It doesn't seem to contribute anything.
The rest of his posts are defending himself, and then he calls out me, Xatalos and Super. His insight on Xatalos is interesting... but I feel like Xatalos has been contributing his thoughts quite a bit in the thread and calling out people for scummy behaviour.
In any case, I don't think Eishi is scum, but he hasn't contributed that much to the thread as of yet.
With the last points I'm SURE that I've made another mistake when it comes to Eishi_Ki, the mafia didn't fear to deflect attention to him and Eishi_Ki also called out suki in the beginning, I think even before Unforgiven_ve.
Eishi_Ki, excuse me for trying to prove you guilty so hard, but it also has good sides, we now know the remaining two mafia members:
Heist & ShiaoPi replacing O.Golden_ne
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And guess who his case was: heist. -_-
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 03 2012 07:00 Ange777 wrote:
3. TLDR
I think Vivax is scum because:
- His best argument in hunting scum has repeatedly been lurking=scum, active=town. Very flawed logic! Maybe to show that by his own standard and his own high activity he should be considered town?
- He only made "safe" cases until now. Case against Eishi was easy to start, so was his case against me and now heist, Golden/ShiaoPi
- When arguing with him about Suki, he never once talked about the content of Suki's post but always emphasized that my lurking play hurt town and therefore I should be lynched
- Even without once explaining his Suki town read he defended Suki till the end and only switched when there was no chance of getting me lynched
- Odd posts implying that one should not lynch him as he is townie (without being in danger), odd post of claiming I can't flip blue, a lot of flawed logic (two mafia can't vote each other), ....
I know that right now it might look like I am tunneling Vivax but he IS my top scum read. There might be a 1% chance of him playing an awful awful town play but I just can't see it. If Vivax you seriously want to convince me of you being town, then please start defending yourself.
(Good chance I missed something in my post as I was really crammed for time when typing this! Please bear that in mind and read Vivax' filter yourself!)
Unforgiven's play still doesn't strike me as townie even though he sided with the right vote .... don't know what to do with that right now.
And please don't forget the lurkers!
Argument 1:
Yes, I should have totally ignored the lurkers and let them lurk to not force them to post something which might give us reads on them, that's an awesome idea for early game town.
The lurker lynching policy is general consensus here, as you might have noticed before your arrival. Now that pretty much everyone has posted something, you know that it's cause there are people favoring lurker lynches.
Argument 2:
Case against Eishi was the least supported case there has been so far, the only one stirring distrust against him was suki initially, but then he told me to put him and sciberbia aside to talk about other players.
Suki kept pushing cases against me more heavily than against Eishi_Ki.
The case against you wasn't safe either. There are enough inconsistencies in your play, one of them being you suspecting unforgiven but supporting his case (I think Milton disagreed and mentioned that it might have been bussing by unforgiven_ve, but so early?No way.
you said I should look at the times of the posts, I did that:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:25 Ange777 wrote:
What exactly is your so-called scumtell? That I side with Unforgiven on the case against Suki? If you read correctly, I changed my opinion on Unforgiven after his recent posts and only after my case on Suki.
I don't understand the problem. On June 02 2012 06:19 Ange777 wrote:
I would consolidate on a Unforgiven lynch as I have posted my concerns about his recent play. Still I believe Suki to be more scummy. On June 02 2012 06:16 Ange777 wrote:
Would you mind explaining who is deflecting attention away from me? I think I made a pretty good case and took a clear stance in my gameplay, that is why people are switching their votes off of me and start voting Suki or Unforgiven. Yes, Suki was active for a far longer way than me but activity alone should not be a reason to not suspect someone or not lynch someone.
You never discharged unforgiven, and that's where I saw the lie, especially given the close posting times contradicting themselves so clearly.
Argument 3:
Indeed, I wanted to lynch you for the sudden appearance throwing FoS at active townies after the votes on you started, and just then.
You had the worst possible timing to appear, by your own choice to focus on the other game, you acknowledged the points that the behavior was bad for the town, so I don't see how the lynching shouldn't have been justified.
Argument 4:
What's suspicious about switching when I'm trying by all means to get a day1 lynch? I was last to vote before heist.
This is an argument like argument 1, every townie here would have voted for suki to get the day 1 lynch, Eishi was afk, so was Golden, and suki just remained silent while I was unfortunately defending him already.
tl dr ;
At the moment you are blind to the scumreads that suki's death offers. You didn't even adress the two posts I've made about heists and golden based on sukis' stances in connection with them, and that together with the guy who just got killed.
S0lstice was ready to push the case along with me, and he's the least suspected townie here. Why should I kill the guy who's gonna support me in the case on heist and formerly Golden, the case I'm pushing with strong reads?
After a mafias' death, you first analyze their filter, then you might start attacking those who defended the dead mafia, and only bad mafia would defend their teammate directly (instead of deflecting to other players), the chain reaction after flipping mafia is obvious, so the defenders might be noob or misled townies like in my case.
On the other hand, I think heist and the O.Golden replacement will be screwed once i flip town in case of a lynch.
They will have one more kill at their disposal however.
This is all I have to say in my defense, be aware that I will ignore more accusations and just answer them with more reads from scumhunting, who are especially focused on sukis' ties.
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Edit : which are especially focused on sukis' ties -_-
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I've already said I've finished with my defense and called out the two who i believe to be the remaining mafia members.
It's up to you to interprete my previous posts the right way, but if you don't see heist ignoring ShiaoPi and ShiaoPi defending heist, after s0lstice got killed upon suspecting heist, then go back and read my posts i wrote after his death.
To be honest, I don't mind being lynched, cause then heist and ShiaoPi will be in serious trouble anyway, maybe Ange777 too, but considering 'her' first hit on suki (case against him started by Eishi_Ki and unforgiven_ve) town trusts her too much.
Also think that heist and ShiaoPi are supporting a case of a trusted (i believe) townie, it's a pretty safe choice even for mafia.
I think it's really misguided to focus on my posts when there is much more reliable information to get from sukis' posts, you look for mafiavibes from me when there are behaviors of a confirmed mafia towards other players at your disposal.
Look especially at the triangle suki-heist-O.Golden_ne.
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@ Miltonkram:
I'm pretty sure Xatalos is townie, simply cause he adresses suki, heist and O.Golden_ne in the last part you've quoted.
I know I'm being stubborn again on my suspicions, but face it:
suki never tried to rise attention towards heist, he never adressed him directly, same goes for O.Golden_ne.
In his filter, if you search for the word heist, you will find it once in a part where he tries to make Eishi_Ki look suspicious based on heist's and O.Golden_ne's attacks on me, cause that makes Eishi_Ki looks bandwagon-y, which I thought too, frankly.
Look for O.Golden_ne, you will get to suki's first post, where he suspects sciberbia and milton, who i both read as townie.
That's it, they kept the activity between each other to a minimum, but suki pretty much adresses everyone else directly, except for the two. If that's not a safe scumtell, I don't know.
@ Xatalos
No, I didn't give up on my defense, I've already written it down, and my best defense atm is good offense/scumhunting.
If you really look at your posts and then go through mine, you will find my defense anyway, I'm just tired of repeating it over and over when people ignore points I've already made, it's a waste of time.
Also, look at suki's first post concerning miltonkram and you'll know that it's nonsense to think miltonkram might not be town.
To me, it looks like you're too focused on the last posts and making the same mistake as Ange777. There are so many early posts from a confirmed mafia which hold so much more information, yet you prefer to look in a stage where every post is hard to contextualize. This is a point I've been making the entire time, and I would bet that everyone would agree on the logic. It's choosing the safe over the unsafe method, which you are not doing since you even suspect miltonkram when suki's first post disproves him being mafia.
And ShiaoPi doesn't even consider heist being mafia, wtf? There's so much evidence, you simply ignore it to push a case against me? Also, i prefer to not go through your offensive posts. Calling someone stupid and retarded isn't a good way to make reads, but I think the host might remind you of that at some point.
My list of scum remains the same: heist, ShiaoPi
##Vote heist
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Regarding suki:
How is the reasoning odd?
Suki posted more, that's all. What made me so suspicious about Ange777 is her timing when she posted something substantial for the first time. Read on.
Ange:
Look at Ange's posts before her comeback, she even announced she would contribute and didn't do so until there was a real danger of being lynched cause town was about to lynch the most lurking person in that game.
Here she suddenly appeared, saying that we might hit blue as only inital defense, and apologized for the absence saying what kept her busy.
Then I was just pretty sure that it's mafia behavior to be silent all game and just show up when you're about to get killed, throwing accusations at three different players (me, unforgiven and suki).
I was fearing that through town's confusion it wouldn't come to a day 1 lynch, so I preferred to stick with my initial target cause I believed it was more likely to get a lynch on Ange777.
It was Xatalos who made the first vote on her, I was third after miltonkram. You are making such a big deal out of the fact that I believed that suki was town, most of the town did (except for Eishi_Ki and unforgiven and later Ange777).
She admitted having a bad impact on that game with the sudden return reading scum to me. Town was about to set the vote, and I didn't want to vote for someone I didn't believe to be mafia unless it was the only possible way to get a Day 1 lynch, which I announced from the beginning.
Then heist: Wtf, you mention what you believe without even saying what should be wrong about that scumslip, he says he doesn't believe suki to be mafia and 12 minutes later he contradicts himself by saying it looks like I'm bussing.
Also, bad redefinition, my entire response was: 'Your word choice is strange cause it contradicts your official beliefs'.
Also, you completely ignore the time of the post, i posted that before s0lstice died, but you say I use that to push after s0lstice's death.
I understand you don't have a good overview of my actions cause you just joined the game, but you should really read everything if you plan on going for such accusations of single players. You will find all kind of suspicious things about other players if you go with the premise that they are guilty and look close enough.
Eishi_Ki:
Contributing and boost my filter? You realize I was the first to push the case and barely anyone believed Eishi to be scum? How exactly should that help me as mafia? Taking a hard stance?Going against the grain? None of these helps mafia.
Eishi joined in against me after two posts from heist and O.Golden, accusing me for townreading sciberbia too early.
Now that you know that sciberbia is town with very high probability, why should I defend him as mafia? Townreading him actually was against the mafia's interest, as you see with suki's next post doubting my read. Then heist and O.Golden attacked me.
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On June 05 2012 03:04 austinmcc wrote:
He's NOT misusing that term though if he's saying what he seems to be saying. That it is a bad idea to vote for someone you think is town. If making a comment about X bussing Y when you think Y is town is a scumslip, then what should we make of actively placing your vote on Y when you think Y is town? If you read it this way, it makes sense and it looks plenty townie. He's calling Vivax out on voting a townread, and then giving a possible explanation for Vivax's behavior.
In all honesty, while some may find the last sentence of his post scummy, I'm more inclined to focus on the first couple sentences, where he's reprimanding Vivax for voting a townread.
I placed the vote on Y cause we needed a day 1 lynch and there were two votes left, in the end those were from me and heist as last vote. I could have kept suki alive if I wanted to. And i could have voted after heist.
I know my defense of suki looks scummy, but no mafia would defend one of theirs directly, then vote for them and reveal the information. It's a loss-loss situation for scum.
I'll just play the scenario through with the assumption i'm scum:
I could have defended suki, then stop the lynch, get a night 1 kill and 1 more day to try and get another lynch target than us two.
Heist wouldn't have voted for him anyway without my vote. His main suspect was superouman at that point, so he was playing into my hands.
Instead I decided to get him killed, not just bussing one of my faction, but also ensuring that all would suspect me upon that.
Then I would try to incriminate heist and O.Golden, alongside with s0lstice, just to decide and get him killed, my ally in these cases???
S0lstice would have helped me push the case further and i would have been able to deflect attention from me, and then me and another mafioso just kill him?
GG Mafia
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I am confident that town will win anyway even if you lynch the wrong one. Once that's done, I hope that you focus on the real scum, I don't feel the points I made in my defense are weak, but it's easy to think a player is guilty when most of the information posted is about him, and day 2 has been mostly about me.
You're doing the error of 'lynching the most controversial or outspoken player'. But feel free to make it, since Shiao and heist will have a lot of trouble nevertheless, cause I will flip town and their cases are extremely one-sided (towards me).
Just mind that they have another kill at their disposal, I would opt for sciberbia if I were mafia right now.
Was a fun first game, guys. But I need to work on my strat.
##Unvote heist
##Vote Vivax
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On June 05 2012 05:57 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:42 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax, I'm not convinced golden/ShiaoPi is scummy. Lurking as a mafia tactic, fine. Lurking your way to a replacement/modkill, not so fine. And I've generally agreed with most of what ShiaoPi's had to say. So, hypothetically, if heist is scum but ShiaoPi isn't, who would be your read for the last scum?
If heist is scum, superouman would probably be town, since superouman was the guy heist voted for before he switched to suki after me.
But to be blunt, I don't see other players than them who could be scum.
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@ Unforgiven_ve
Should be 7 votes on me right now.
Also, I'm lynching myself cause i cba to argue with everyone. People should just see for themselves if they run over my defense.I'm done with explaining.
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EPT
