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On April 24 2012 09:03 BlazingJitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:02 layabout wrote:On April 24 2012 09:00 BlazingJitsu wrote:On April 24 2012 08:59 layabout wrote:On April 24 2012 08:52 BlazingJitsu wrote:On April 24 2012 08:51 layabout wrote:On April 24 2012 08:37 BlazingJitsu wrote:On April 24 2012 08:34 layabout wrote:On April 24 2012 08:31 BlazingJitsu wrote:On April 24 2012 07:38 layabout wrote:
"I pledge to stop swearing for the rest of the game in the hope that we will all be nicer to each other"
- layabout
BH is trying to get town cred from the lynch even though he ignored VE until it was too late for him to stop the lynch.
We should lynch BlazingJitsu tomorrow.
If St. Daniel is posting in another game but not this one even though this started first then there must be a reason for this. It seems likely that this reason is that he rolled scum and is frightened to post.
Are you fucking kidding me? By what unfathomable absence of reason do you think I wanted VE to get lynched? I literally did everything I could to get Marv lynched.
-Blazinghand You haven't addressed anything i have said about you. I feel no need whatsoever to address the atrocity against human reason you call a case.
-Blazinghand I never called it a case. I never said "you wanted to get VE lynched" I posted that you said you would address VE but that you made no attempt to defend him until it was too late, i think this is because you didn't want to stop him being lynched. I have said that you are tunneling marv to avoid giving real opinions or making any real contributions. Furthermore if marv flip's town then you are able to back out of every other accusation that you have made* because they would no longer be valid. They are the primary causes for my suspicion. Also, many of the reason's behind your accusations are preposterous. + Show Spoiler +i cannot go into detail now as it's 1 am and i have to be up in a few hours * i have not looked for a counter example i am mostly referring to your accusations against paqman and mignightgladius You cannot go into detail? You ARE aware daybreak is in like 10 minutes? As a town player, I don't know I'll be alive in 10 minutes. What makes you so sure? You scum?
-Blazinghand In this post BH yet against avoids addressing the issue but he does make a wild accusation that is, "silly" at best. He is doing this to make himself look aggressive and confident so that people will have faith in him or think that he is town In this post Layabout avoids addressing the issue but he does be worthless
-Blazinghand Since the issue is "Blazinghand respond to my argument" you are the only one that can address it. Oh and i think zeph is not scummy. The other issue is "how does layabout know he wont' be shot" -Blazinghand
layabout doesn't
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:06 layabout wrote:
He seemed unsure of himself.
At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me.
It seems that this was also the case for zeph.
*Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town.
Right layabout. But my case basically hinged on how he acted after he voted for VE, not before.
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where is the night post..?
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On April 24 2012 09:05 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:50 Mattchew wrote:posting reads before deadline... have to shit real bad so brb in like 20 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kUoLq.jpg) Wait... how the hell do you brand Risen green because of "town meta"? I think his aggressive-defensive bipolarity kinda ruined that aspect. If anything makes him green is that he backed VE till the end.
i should have said that i only colored it for you all so that was done in haste. he is a very very light green as you can see because of meta. My read on him will evolve deeper as the game continues. also some people aren't colored exactly as i would like them to be but w.e idc
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Sentinel
I think he's scum.
Here is his first "important" post:
(All the ones before that one were just useless filler.)
On April 22 2012 09:53 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +
On whatever date and time johnnywup wrote:
I think [UoN] Sentinel is the scummiest and I will post a case on him in a bit.
Hold the phone. What? Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 08:43 johnnywup wrote:
yes gonzaw i can in fact change my mind. I found my case on sentinel was subpar so i didn't post it. whats wrong with that?
So... can we have a little tidbit of it? Is my lurking in there, Mr. Wup? Because I'm a regular lurker. Sometimes I have to sleep and eat and go places where I can't exactly contribute to mafia games. This is especially apparent when there are 30 freakin' players and it's a pain in the ass to have to catch up all the time. What about the other inactives? What specifically irks you about my lurking that I have to be voted off? Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 08:50 johnnywup wrote:
Make it better? I think the case was bad and I didn't have enough evidence to make it a good case. So get off me. I don't care what it makes me look like. If I have a bad case and I post it and people recognize that it's bad then that's worse. I'm being perfectly transparent that my case was bad. I don't have to post anything for you. Hell, I'll give you some points for honesty, but could you at least PM me the case? I'd like to know my charges. Let's see why Otto doesn't like me: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:38 Ottoxlol wrote: [UoN] Sentinel had two real posts, the first + Show Spoiler +Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
He doesnt know that GFs cant shoot.. Nuf said, very bad post, calling out gonzaw but not making a case against his plan Incorrect. As GF you have this little-known thing called "kill power". This is how people tend to die at night. Now if I was GF and people claimed vig, I would be telling my scum buddies, "Hey guys, these people can shoot us. We need to kill a townie anyway, let's hit them where it counts." Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +I'm starting to think all of you people purposely post when I sleep
Let's do it like this - everyone just do whatever the fuck they want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. If it's not beneficial in some way to town, then lynch them. If there's one thing I know, it's that voting/lynching/etc. plans always benefit mafia because they can pull them to their advantage (and also you get lynched when your plan especially sucks).
Keeping in mind with this train of thought, I will proceed to do whatever the fuck I want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. When I get back, I'll read filters and try and put more on the table.
I would wait till he put more on the table before we jump to conclusions, I disagree with that plans always benefiting mafia. He's talkin more in general terms, so maybe if he states his case more clearly we'll get more information. Sentinel, if you would be so kind to tell us your opinion about who's benefiting the town right now and who's not, i would like to read what do you think who should we lynch. To be honest, at first I suspected Sloosh. This is why - Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:01 slOosh wrote:
I like Ottoxlol - his questions are pertinent.
And yes I think VisceraEyes is scum.
Posting like this is terribad. Saying you like someone kinda establishes a one-way trust bond where in this case Otto would be less likely to lynch sloosh because sloosh supports Otto, but on very, very little evidence. "His questions are pertinent". If I ask a mafia-related question to Bluelightz that's also pertinent. Means nothing. Sloosh describes VE's anger as fearmongering, but other than that I have no problem with his argument. Which brings me to my next suspect: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 09:35 ghost_403 wrote:@paqman: This is how I contribute. I find scum, I tell people they are scum, and I beat them to a pulp when they respond to me thinking they are scum. If Sentinel bothered to poke his head in the thread, I'd be beating the crap out of him at the moment. See TLM LI. @gonzaw: I don't like everyone voting all over the place, but I can see exactly what you're saying, so I'm going to ##vote [UoN]Sentinelbecause I think he's playing the scummiest at the moment. (This me not liking to vote is really something I need to get out of my usual play.) VE's disappearance from should be noted. As far as this change of heart, I don't see it as a change of heart. Not all bad play is scummy play. What I was trying to get across there is that I think that Sentinel is the better lynch out of the two of them. @johnny: I hate writing up cases against people. I pointed it out that I think he's scummy here. I think big posts are a waste of time and space, but that's probably why no one listens to me in these games. brb, writing up a big poast. Why, why, why, why, WHY? You give absolutely nothing for my case. "I'm playing scummy." No explanation. No rationale. No logic. This argument holds so little water it could be Sahara. A good chunk of his filter deals with why I'm bad but never offers any of his own advice. Strike two for not using the "quote" button. This makes it seem like he has something to hide, as well as pissing me off, because I (and any other observers) have to look what other people wrote and I can't read his damn filter. Strike three because another chunk, maybe 50%, can be summarized with "Shut the hell up and help me find scum." This to me looks more threatening than old Viscera did. ##Vote: ghost_403You all wanted me to post. Your wish has been granted.
He just posts this to defend himself. All the 1st points of this posts are him making excuses and defending himself against accusations.
He suspects sloosh for some arbitrary reason (sloosh saying "I like Ottoxlul").
Notice how he never mentions his thoughts about sloosh again in the whole game
His next point is an OMGUS against ghost. His reasoning for voting ghost is that ghost thinks he's scum and didn't post "reasoning" behind it, which is bogus since ghost did offer some reasoning behind it here:
On April 22 2012 07:50 ghost_403 wrote:@BJ + Show Spoiler + 4F doesn't deserve to die in any game. That guy was a genius at finding scum, he just didn't know it. VE is probably scum. Accusing gonzaw of a scumslip is just terribad, and someone of his experience should know better. Also, the idea of a JK working against the town is such a fashion is WTF bad. If he was a noob, I would give him a pass, but he's not. He should know better than that. Sentinel obviously rolled scum this game. His filter has nothing of content, and when layabout called him out, it took him 15 minutes to unlurk, at which point he added nothing to the conversation. He's here, but not contributing at all. I think he would make an excellent Day 1 lynch.
You know what else happens in that post?
Just like I told many other players, he completely ignores the current discussion at hand
He ignores everything about VE, the cases made against him, or the discussion about my "scumslip" and shit.
He ignores the Mattchew vs Paqman deal, and he ignores the BH vs marv deal as well.
His only motivation for making that post is to:
-Defend himself
-Offer a shitty vote on a player that has NOTHING to do with the current discussion
His post only serves to disrupt, misdirect discussion and respond to accusations so he's not in the spotlight.
His next posts are filler too, he doesn't contribute anything worthwhile.
He then starts arguing with ghost, yet he never states if he thinks ghost is scum or not in those posts
He just argues against ghost for the sake of arguing and defending himself, he's not scumhunting AT ALL, not even against those that he supposedly thinks is scum.
(For example, these posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#443
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#454 )
This is the FIRST post in the whole game where he actually discusses the current events:
On April 22 2012 11:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Marv, not counting his first 5-10 posts, hasn't actually done anything worth the lynch. I mean, if he was on the guillotine and I had to give ONE reason to lynch him, it would be fluffing. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because it pales in comparison to: + Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 20:13 BlazingJitsu wrote:Marvellosity. Let me talk to you. No correction let me talk AT you. what are you doing this game? Let's look at your filter+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 09:05 marvellosity wrote:Mattchew, I thought we were gonna have a long, happy, and romp-filled relationship, then you make me click on multiple spoilers. On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote:
I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ On April 21 2012 10:33 marvellosity wrote:
Holy gonzaw post. Nice ^--- These posts are short and worthless. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:04 marvellosity wrote:On April 21 2012 09:58 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game. What? The vigilante-godfather-miller-weirdthing is the only strange mechanic in the game. Before things get properly rolling is absolutely the right time to talk about its implications. ^--- this post is actually correct, but interestingly, despite the fact that it's the right time to talk about the game mechanics... you never talk about the game mechanics. You ask some unhelpful questions and echo worthless obvious shit other people have said, but otherwise you're deadweight. Where's your contributions, Marv? Where's the discussion that it is "absolute the right time" to talk about? or do you only have inane questions? Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:29 marvellosity wrote:On April 21 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote:On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote:
I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune). Right, so scum could claim their shot was blocked on some random townie and WIFOM it up. Gotcha. So, are there in fact any GOOD circumstances to make a vig shot? ^=== HOLY SHIT this question is bad. holy shit. Of course there's good circumstances to make a vig shot! SHOOT A SCUM GUY. Christ. Even if you shoot a godfather, at least that's a data point (not quite a DT check's worth, because it might hasve been roleblock), and if you shoot a goon, hey, you shot a goon. Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length. Typically this is where I say "you can do better, marv" but really, ANYONE could do better. You're shitting on the town and trying to build up a post count without saying ANYTHING. You're lurking in plain sight. ##vote: marvellosity.
-Blazinghand Especially the part about a good time to make a vig shot. First off, the tone of BH's post is like sulfuric acid to my lemon juice. I've never, ever, seen him post like that before. Second, BH should have more of a problem with VE. Marv asked a stupid question? Big fucking whoop. We've all done it at one point or another, it's not a death sentence. Show nested quote +
Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length.
Unwarranted, this is.
Is wishy washy regarding marv, and here is where the fun begins:
In the next few posts, Sentinel starts into a "suspicion-spree", spouting names of players and players and how he finds them slightly suspicious or is wishy washy regarding them
Here are the posts:
BH: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#457
Daniel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#459
Brood: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#460
He's wishy washy about them or suspicious about them, but doesn't mention them at all later (he only mentions Daniel and Brood one more time, nothing else), or pressure them, or discuss them, or posting more thoughts about them. He just soughts suspicion on those players and then forgets about them.
His initial suspicion of sloosh falls in this category as well.
Now comes his vote on VE:
On April 22 2012 22:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"?
Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE.
##Unvote: ghost_403
##Vote: VisceraEyes
St. Dan is next on my list. As for Brood, his last post was fluff but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Really? Here is his reasoning for voting VE:
Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"?
Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE.
Notice how this is the first time in the game he mentions VE
He never mentioned when VE called me out and started his "lynch gonzaw!" crusades, nor mentioned him when I and sloosh posted cases against him, or when other people mentioned him.
He mentions him only after he claims, and what does he say? Almost nothing.
His "What the hell is a..." statement is useless since it doesn't state anything about his opinion on the matter.
His "Coupled with......" statement is just very vague and doesn't really say anything about VE's alignment.
Apart from that he doesn't say anything else about VE, he doesn't post more thoughts about VE, or about other current discussions about VE either.
Oh, yeah he also mentioned my case about Risen a little bit:
On April 23 2012 06:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:I'm reading gonzaw's post and the first two bullets in the end are characteristic of more than one person. Also, since a huge part of the argument is he's not posting like he usually does as town, could you pull some quotes depicting what you think Risen's "normal" posting is like. Or at least link me to the filter of a Mafia game he was in and I'll take a look. Also switched my vote in the thread because apparently I forgot to do that 
...but is completely wishy washy about it, fails to make an actual opinion on it, and only serves to "ask" about Risen's past games.
Then when layabout actually goes through the effort of linking to said games, Sentinel doesn't mention it at all nor mentions Risen at all.
Conclusion:
- Sentinel is just posting to avoid the spotlight. When he posts he either just defends himself against accusations, he posts fluff and filler about useless things (like that "QT=/=PM" post), or posts wishy-washy stances on other players
- He ignores all current discussions and posts things that are irrelevant to them. He talks about players that have nothing to do with the discussion (and like said before in a wishy-washy manner), he talks about current events way too late and doesn't provide any new (or even remotely useful) content regarding it
- Starts fighting with ghost to disrupt the thread, starts FoSing him but after they keep fighting he fails to take a stance on the ghost subject, he just argues with him for the sake of arguing.
- He is "suspicious" and wishy washy about a lot of players and never makes the effort of mentioning them again or contributing more thoughts about them.
- He votes VE without any reasoning and only based on VE "trying to sway townies", and nothing else
- Doesn't actively contribute, lurks and posts only sporadically.
He's scum and I'll vote for him tomorrow.
As you can see, there's a reason why I made that "I'm not sure about Risen" post before.
Risen ignored Sentinel in his posts when Sentinel is one of the scummiest players around. That made me very suspicious of Risen, even though he's "acting all townie" (like I said earlier).
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 08:18 gonzaw wrote:Okay, major thoughts after spending like 3 hours reading the thread: About Risen:First of all, I'll deal with your "rebuttal" (if you can call it that) of my case here: + Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote:Risen:I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:How are you feeling VE? Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven *we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan. This post is wishy washy as hell. First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of. The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy". Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting". Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it. Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out. Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote:
I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing. Again, note the bolded bit too. On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote:
Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. Now here's the kicker. Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"... ...really? I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute. But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances. Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before. Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here: Posting lots is pro-town He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!So really people, Risen is scum because: - He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
- Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
- Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
- Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
- He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day
So people, let's lynch Risen
##Unvote: VisceraEyes
##Vote: Risen What kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. Wtf? Risen, as soon as LI started you pressured people (ET, johnny, others), you FoSed them and started discussion. And it was like 2 hours into D1You can't possibly use the "what the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game?" excuse at all when you don't don't do that when you are town. Yes, you were being submissive, before you called laya out, not after (geez read my fucking post I specifically quote the post I'm talking about) On to your little bullets.
1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. Thanks for the sarcasm that doesn't accomplish anything. Okay, so you pull off the "busy" excuse...does that justify your lack of activity until then? If you are busy/go away/etc you should tell us so we know about it before we even have to point that out to you. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? It seemed to me you were just talking just to talk there. You said things like "Well, but I don't see how pointing that out is scummy, but well..", spent talking quite a lot about Mementoss' plan, and all that just to say "don't direct blues". Don't worry though, this is not that important 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. Yes it's a flimsy vote, and don't use that excuse again, you know it doesn't work like that and it doesn't justify your vote AT ALL. For instance, there were PLENTY of JUSTIFIED votes from other players before you voted layabout, so your point is rendered moot and only serves to make it seem you are avoiding justifying your vote at all and misdirecting it. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? Read my case. You were extremely passive until layabout called you out. Then you became extremely aggressive ALMOST INSTANTLY 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. Excuses, excuses, excuses. You can't possibly tell me that you think people calling you out because you are not posting means we are idiots because we didn't know that you "weren't supposed to head back to Vegas" or you were "busy" right? Yes, it's possible you were busy, it's possible that Vegas thing happened and you were away or something. However, it's very possible that you had tiny bits of free time between those times to post too. It's entirely possible that you are scum, you were "busy", but when you had free time you just said "Oh fuck it, supposedly I'm still "busy" so I'll just not post for a while". I did it in Newbie IV for instance, where I just said things like "I'm going to uni and I'll be busy this week so I won't be able to post too much". I was busy and going to uni, but when I came back home I just read the thread, read the scum QT and talked to some people there and then did nothing at all and keep lurking. Then every other time I posted I'd say "Oh I'm back from uni/I'm not that busy anymore/blablabla". I wasn't lying, but I was exaggerating it so I was justified in not posting. So you making these kind of excuses doesn't let you off the hook at all. And like I said, if you are going to be legitimately busy, or going away to Vegas (or coming back to Vegas, I didn't really understand that part), then if you don't want misunderstandings you point it out to us. It's not required if you are able to establish your innocence before it, but since you completely failed at that in your case, yes you should have. Also, here's his filter from LI (was town): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046&user=62525The fact that I could almost instantly peg him as town in that game, while I'm having lots of doubts about his alignment this game should indicate something, at least regarding Risen's earlier behaviour (before he went through that AFK period) I'm kind of torn about this now. Before he started being "active" again, he was scummy as fuck. However, he started using his usual "townie" aggressive act after being called out. He started being assholes to everybody, posting actively, and FoSing everybody without any reasoning at all and just being a dick. There are 2 interesting aspects I found: - Heavily defending VE:
This is interesting, because as we all know VE flipped blue. For scum, this seems the best scenario to easily jump on the wagon of a claimed blue (that was scummy as fuck and ragequitted) and get him lynched on D1, instead of having to deal with him throughout the whole game, and either having to waste their KP on him at night, or having to deal with VE's saves each night in an attempt to get him lynched D2 and onwards. Yet he went the opposite way and heavily opposed VE's lynch.
He was VERY VOCAL about it too. He begged people to get off VE.
I'm trying to find scum motivations on this, and I can, but it seems kind of like a conspiracy theory, because it would be a fucking great scum play from Risen, and this is why:
Risen was under heavy fire from some people, mainly Paqman, me, Janaan, and some others that found him suspicious as well. He was FoSing everybody, acting shitty, etc, and nobody was listening to him. He had almost 0% thread presence. Him "begging" people to stay off VE would not convince anybody at all, specially not if he would just try to convince others to lynch BM using "Why aren't we voting BM? He's useless" as the sole reasoning to lynch BM (parabole here).
Now, if he's scum, he knows he's under fire. He knows his voice doesn't have any presence, and he knows that he can't sway town into doing shit. Knowing that VE will possibly get lynched (probably with the help of his buddies), he knows that if he wants to save his ass, he has to oppose the VE lynch. Since he knows he has 0% sway over anybody, he can yell at people, he can beg them to not lynch VE, and he knows nobody would listen to him.
After VE is lynched, he would gain immense amounts of town cred and be out of the spotlight.
This would be fucking great scumplay. Of course, it would also need superb scumplay from him to "fake" that aggressiveness and dickish behaviour he has put since being called out.
It's worrying how sure he was about not voting VE though. His "We don't lynch a claimed doctor" reasoning would make sense for him to oppose his lynch...but I still find it odd how he was so confident about not lynching VE, yet he doesn't really state anything about VE's behaviour or if he thinks he's actually town or not, he just says VE is an "emo idiot", implies VE is just bad, and begs people to not vote for him. He doesn't mention anything about VE's actual play, doesn't mention if he thinks he's scum fake-claiming or a legit claim (although his wording implies he thinks VE is town, but he doesn't explicitely mention it).
He just opposes the VE lynch for the sake of opposing it, and seems to ignore everything else that had to do with VE and VE's behaviour. It makes it seem like he wouldn't even care about VE at all and only cared about opposing his lynch.
- Fosing those that voted VE, but only a small group of them:
Now, this is another interesting thing.
These are 2 posts I'll be refering too:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=32#628
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=33#655
He starts his "Everybody voting VE is scum/idiot" thing (just like he did the "Everybody NOT voting VE is scum/idiot" thing in LI).
However, he just fixates on marv and BM.
He FoSes marv just for voting the claimed doctor...something 6 more players did and he didn't mention them at all at that point(he does briefly mention BM though).
He does mention all of them in the 2nd post....but he doesn't make a lot of conclusive stands on them.
He mentions that he thinks sloosh and layabout are just idiots, good.
He mentions that he thinks marv and BM are scum..good I guess? He still doesn't state why he thinks marv is scum out of all those players just for voting VE (marv had stated reasons for voting VE before, just like most that voted VE by that point).
He mentions BM and then starts the crusades to get him lynched, good.
However...he mentions that Sentinel and Oxxolul are being "derps" for voting VE and mentions scummy things about them...but then he never mentions them again.
If he FoSes marv for voting VE for shitty reasons, and he keeps picking up fights with him because of it, why doesn't he call Sentinel or Oxxolul out? I mean, we know that when he's town he just rages against EVERYBODY that does something he doesn't want to do or something he disapproves. Why does he completely ignore Sentinel and Oxxolul from then on? Why does he totally fixate on marv and BM, yet FoSes them using reasoning that applies to those other 2? He even implied he thought Oxo/Sentinel were suspicious or he was having doubts about them, it doesn't make any sense for him to ignore them.
However, he just decides to "pick" the players that have more votes on them: marv and BM. That's quite a coincidence.
Sentinel nor Oxxo had votes or suspicions on them, while marv and BM had votes and a lot of suspicions on them.
It seems too much of a coincidence, specially since he doesn't mention anything about voting for marv/BM because they are more likely to get lynched or anything.
What's the scum motivation for this? Well, the obvious one is that Otto and/or Sentinel are scum, marv and BM are town, and Risen decides to oppose the VE lynch to gain more town cred now that he's been called out.
Since he decides to oppose the hell out of the VE lynch, he has to play to his town meta and FoS those that voted for VE, so he decides to FoS the townies that are under heavy suspicion from the ones that voted VE to blend in with other players.
It may seem unlikely, but I don't see a town motivation for Risen to IGNORE both Sentinel and Ottolul throughout the whole game since that post of his, specially considering his heavy stance regarding VE, and those that voted for VE.
Now, this may seem like a conspiracy theory, but even though Risen's past actions would "exonerate" him in many people's eyes (because he's playing to his meta, posting actively, going against the VE lynch and trying to lynch BM, etc), the way he performed said actions, and the way he's been acting regarding those other players make me very uneasy. I find it possible Risen is scum, decided to go all "Fuck this shit I'll FoS everybody, play to my town meta and oppose the VE lynch to gain cred", which is why I'm pointing this out. Holy shit this post is gigantic, I'll post my thoughts on other players in a minute
I focused on marv/BM b/c it was late in the day and I had to focus on people who were going to be able to be lynched. I think that's pretty basic. I even said somewhere in my filter that I didn't want to forward a lynch candidate who wasn't going to be lynched. Means I had to focus on BM/marv and in the end I hate lurkers and BM's vote was atrocious. I don't know why everyone is discussing cases with so much time left for scum to send in their actions. If you want to post your reads at night do it right before the deadline...
This brings me to this post.
On April 24 2012 06:46 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:03 Risen wrote:On April 24 2012 04:37 Mementoss wrote:On April 24 2012 01:44 layabout wrote:
I think we were correct to vote for VE given what we knew.
I think that it was irresponsible for Blazinghand to wait so long to pull his head out of marv's ass to tell us that VE had done this before, since that is super-fucking-relevant to judging his alignment, and by the time he pointed it out there were very few people left to read it or change their vote. He is also lording the fact that he made the call over us and trying to get us to trust him. BH was around for hours before the lynch when we were all here and he just tunnelled marv and ignored VE.
I think you guys need to stop calling for vigi's to shoot so early because in this set-up a vigilante that shoots night1 knowing that they are aiming for 2/4 mafia and only 2/18 players in the game, the longer the game goes better the chance of the shot, also with only 1 shot you would have to be very confident or very foolish to shoot today or even tomorrow in this set-up. The bolded part is ridiculous. No, you were not correct given the information you had. Just admit you were wrong, and you were mis-using logic/sheeping/tunnelling into VE, which ultimately lead to you helping scum kill one of our blue roles. It bothered me that no-one voting VE yesterday cause answer the question I posed, "Why would VE do this as scum?". Admit you were wrong, re-read his filter, learn from your mistakes. Tryimg to make yourself look good after you were the one pushing hardest for a majority of the day against anyone who made good points about why to not lynch VE/why VE was probably telling the truth? (Against me and Risen later in the day) However, despite all this I've thought about it, and I think you were just geniunely mistaken and wrong. I don't think a scum, would push so hard all day with the amount of detail you did to lynching VE, knowing that he would flip blue. As of now I don't have any particulary good scum reads, I need to review the thread now knowing the flip. But I feel like Mattchew is probably town, and so is Risen, based on their actions prior to the lynch. Why would you give town reads at night.... Why are you afraid of town reads? Only scum are scared of that
I've been told that town reads, especially at night, shouldn't be voiced. If you ARE going to voice that kind of stuff do it right before daytime. Only scum are scared of town reads? How do you read that as me being scared? That's me saying keep your mouth shut with your town reads because it's night time and that just gives mafia more incentive to kill your town reads.
Let me tell you what scum do. Scum come into the thread after a day of being afk, say lolol day 1 is so useless I just couldn't be bothered, and then claim to have soooo much to do day 2 trying to save themselves from the vigs. Can't wait to see it, bud.
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On April 24 2012 09:07 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:06 layabout wrote:
He seemed unsure of himself.
At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me.
It seems that this was also the case for zeph.
*Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town. Right layabout. But my case basically hinged on how he acted after he voted for VE, not before.
I think nearly everything you have quoted reinforces the notion that he was unsure of himself, and it does not change my opinion of him by much.
part of marvellosity's case Alright, good. The second half of his filter is a goldmine though. He flip-flops in so many ways against me I'm having problem formatting it. Let's give it a go. Somewhat before the deadline: Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:38 Zephirdd wrote:
Although I'm tempted to switch my "lastmin" vote(which seems to not be last min at all) to marv after what Risen pointed out. Ofc there is also the general reasons to vote him as pointed out earlier as well. Ok, here we have tacit support for BH's case. He then kinda retracts it shortly after Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote:
Also, I'm skimming through marv's filter and I don't see anything glaring in particular, yet that marv/midnight "scumslip"(pointed out by Risen) is very interesting. It could be a coincidence, it could be what Risen said. So generally a null read now, and then ANOTHER mention of the Risen observation (MG and I asking for deadline times almost simultaneously). Fair enough, let's continue. His next post contained the following 'accident':
He says he is tempted to switch, he says that people have pointed out reasons to vote for you and mention's risen.
Presumably he then goes and reads through your posts. He then concludes. "i don't see anything too bad except the scumslip Risen pointed out" but he doesn't seem to be sure of it.
I fail to see how this makes zeph scummy.
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Risen, I know I'll most likely be shot tonight either way, so me posting cases and thoughts right before the deadline or not doesn't bother me (specially since probably our only JK was lynched).
Specially since I'm in a hurry to post all my thoughts, cases, scumreads, etc before the deadline hits, so I'm quickly reading filters and doing stuff. If I do all of that together right before the deadline I may not have time and may miss it (and probably die and not be able to post it), so I'm posting them as I'm making.
I think Zephird is scum, and hopefully I have time to post my thoughts on him as well.
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EBWOP: And I also entertained the idea of a no-lynch instead of lynching VE but as someone else stated in the thread, you'd have to get everyone to vote ##no lynch which is as viable as bringing up a new lynch target. Oh I dunno, like trying to get zephyr lynched last second when it should be clear that there is no chance of that happening.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:18 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:07 marvellosity wrote:On April 24 2012 09:06 layabout wrote:
He seemed unsure of himself.
At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me.
It seems that this was also the case for zeph.
*Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town. Right layabout. But my case basically hinged on how he acted after he voted for VE, not before. I think nearly everything you have quoted reinforces the notion that he was unsure of himself, and it does not change my opinion of him by much. Show nested quote +part of marvellosity's case Alright, good. The second half of his filter is a goldmine though. He flip-flops in so many ways against me I'm having problem formatting it. Let's give it a go. Somewhat before the deadline: On April 23 2012 08:38 Zephirdd wrote:
Although I'm tempted to switch my "lastmin" vote(which seems to not be last min at all) to marv after what Risen pointed out. Ofc there is also the general reasons to vote him as pointed out earlier as well. Ok, here we have tacit support for BH's case. He then kinda retracts it shortly after On April 23 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote:
Also, I'm skimming through marv's filter and I don't see anything glaring in particular, yet that marv/midnight "scumslip"(pointed out by Risen) is very interesting. It could be a coincidence, it could be what Risen said. So generally a null read now, and then ANOTHER mention of the Risen observation (MG and I asking for deadline times almost simultaneously). Fair enough, let's continue. His next post contained the following 'accident': He says he is tempted to switch, he says that people have pointed out reasons to vote for you and mention's risen. Presumably he then goes and reads through your posts. He then concludes. "i don't see anything too bad except the scumslip Risen pointed out" but he doesn't seem to be sure of it. I fail to see how this makes zeph scummy.
And now again he's sure, because I went after VE. He's sure, unsure, unsure, sure, unsure. He's not making a case against anyone. Marv is guilty then he isn't then he is then he isn't then he is. Oh, and MG might be guilty coz he kinda doesn't like his posts. Oh and jdub too, let's omgus him a little. Wishy washy scum.
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I feel like you should be making your cases and then posting whatever you get done as late as possible. I'm not saying try and get it in 1min before deadline, but at least try and wait until 10mins before deadline. I don't even have that large of a problem with posting cases at night, my problem is with posting town reads at night.
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On April 24 2012 09:22 Risen wrote:
I feel like you should be making your cases and then posting whatever you get done as late as possible. I'm not saying try and get it in 1min before deadline, but at least try and wait until 10mins before deadline. I don't even have that large of a problem with posting cases at night, my problem is with posting town reads at night.
I agree with this statement. Typically I am silent for most of the night unless someone seriously needs to get smacked down by my mad logic bombs. I post my cases more towards the end of the night whenever possible.
-Blazinghand.
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I'm in Star Battle so I won't make the deadline. I'll probably post some once I'm done, closer to 14:00 GMT (+00:00)
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wasnt the post supposed to be like 26 min ago?
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Wait, when the hell is the deadline? Was it 20 minutes ago or do I have shitty clocks? o.O
About BJ:
Also people, I advise you to completely ignore Blazinghand.
He's playing to his "useless and aggressive townie in large games" meta, and I think he's town. Meh, he could be scum but surely that will be apparent soon, so if you don't think he's scum just ignore him please.
He'll most likely just post "Marv is scum" in every post of his own and contribute on nothing else.
About sloosh:
I am somewhat suspicious of sloosh, because of his lack of activity, and because when he posts he just happens to go either against VE or against Midnight.
He contributed only once since he made his case against VE. And although that post was not bad ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=31#616 ) he didn't contribute at all other than that.
Once VE was lynched, he also failed to comment about it and went straight ahead to cast suspicion on Midnight.
I find that kind of behaviour suspicious because scum are most likely to do it (as soon as there's a lynch scum want to cast suspicion on someone else as soon as possible, and don't really care about commenting about other things).
sloosh I know you can do better, and this isn't enough to convince me you are scum so please step up your game
About MG:
I don't find him scummy, but I didn't really read his filter too much.
I liked his activity level and contributions earlier on D1, when the whole "plan" thing was discussed. He didn't really contribute that much to make himself look townie later, but for now I don't see anything really bad with him hesitating to vote VE.
If I live tomorrow I'll take another look at it.
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Okay I don't think I'll have time to make a case against Zephird before the post goes up, so here it goes:
About Zephird:
What I first found suspicious about him was how he only had 3 posts in the whole game like half-way through D1
(here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=29#561 )
Then he posts filler, one-liners that don't contribute at all, etc. Of course he made that horrible last-minute bandwagon-jump on VE, and spent almost all of his time after the lynch to defend himself.
I didn't see him scumhunt at all, nor take active part of discussions. He lurks, yet when he posts he posts one-liners and fluff, which means he isn't actually inactive and doesn't have time/etc to post (in which case his posts would have more contributions) but just posts to avoid suspicion and to fly under the radar.
He's a fine lynch as well, although I'd prefer to lynch Sentinel first
Hopefully I'm posting this before the post goes up 
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No more excusing intentionally bad play because X is bad or arrogant or a troll or always useless!
Shape up. Try to help. Establish your innocence. Stop making it harder to find scum.
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On April 24 2012 09:32 layabout wrote:
lynch BM
fixed that for you
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Final thoughts:
About marv:
I'm not convinced by a marv lynch at all (at least not before Sentinel/Zephird/maybe Risen).
He's active and contributing IMO. His vote against VE doesn't look too good, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because of his level of activity and contributions so far.
So please ignore BJ.
About Ottoxlul:
I don't really find him scummy, but he's not contributing much. If he's a smurf or a more experienced player (even if he isn't a smurf) he could easily be scum and trying to just appear he's contributing.
For instance, I found it odd how he seemed absent yet appeared instantly once VE was lynched.
Just take a close look at this guy that's what I'm asking.
About Daniel:
Geez if what other people said is true (he's posting in other games but not on this one) he's VERY LIKELY scum.
Hopefully a vig shoots him tonight (although it's unlikely if nobody claimed a shot by now). He's a good lynch as well, but since he doesn't participate at all I'd prefer to leave him be for now since his wagon won't bring too much discussion
About Brood:
Not as scummy as Daniel, but damn you need to post more son.
Scummy anyways, so keep an eye on him as well.
Oh, and I don't think Mattchew is scum anymore, and I'd say you should treat these players as town:
-Paqman
-Mattchew
-layabout
-Janaan
-Mementoss
-Maybe ghost
Of course put them under scrutiny every once in a while (specially if they survive til late-game), but I don't want any of them lynched soon AT ALL.
Okay, I think that's all 
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EPT
