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On April 13 2012 06:21 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:09 willz22912 wrote:On April 13 2012 04:45 imallinson wrote:On April 13 2012 04:33 Acrofales wrote:On April 13 2012 04:19 imallinson wrote:On April 13 2012 04:18 Acrofales wrote:
Because I am currently trying to figure out Xatalos: imallison, mind telling me why you think he's so townie? Mainly because he was the first person to go out of his way to voice his suspicions of someone. That strikes me as very town like play. That was spectacularly underwhelming. Posting a case on someone is not a tell of anything, plenty of reason for scum to post cases (and I should know, I spent most of GoT mafia blowing up townie's mistakes into cases). He probably has the largest filter of anybody and your reason for listing him as your strongest town read is that he was the first to post a case. I won't ask for more, but I hope not everybody is as gullible as that. He is my strongest town read because I have no sort of town read on anyone else. It certainly isn't super strong and if someone had a good argument against him I could be swayed. I assumed that scum wouldn't want to put themselves out there like Xalatos had. I guess that scum could hide behind that which I hadn't thought of. Thank you for pointing that out. What's your opinion on my claims against you? Bandwagoning on any vote without good cause is still bandwagoning, even if you're the first person. If I have a different opinion of Xatalos's case vs ArcticFox and I disagree with it, but you still agree with him (meaning you don't agree with my interpretation), why? I also find it highly unlikely that you have no other town reads on anyone else, you just didn't think of anyone else because Xatalos's case against ArcticFox was the only discussion point. Be more assertive and decisive in your opinions. If one good argument sways you then you are the type of town Mafia love to keep around because you sheep other people's thoughts. Don't keep to this line of thinking. Well your claims against me are just that I hadn't posted anything of my own, which I've done now so I'm not really sure there is much to say unless there is something else about me you think is suspicious. Your criticism of me was perfectly valid but I have rectified your concern. As for other town reads I think dittert is more newb town than scum but it would be nice to hear from him. Acrofales I think is town but I'm not sure because he seems to jump his suspicion around a lot and I can't figure out why yet. You I'm leaning towards being town you seem to be fairly helpful and getting useful info from other people. Everyone else is neutral or a bit scummy in my mind.
Your case on trumpetarm makes sense, are you still voting ArcticFox or are you changing your vote to trumpet based on what you've posted? I personally am giving a lot of people the benefit of being a newb and first game, but I may have clouded my own judgement in thinking this. You say that trumpetarm is more suspicious than dittert, when essentially they are making the same mistake, (lurking, not posting anything constructive)
I'm giving people at least another 12 hours for the EU folks to respond to the accusations I've made. I suggest you give a little bit more time for the accused to respond as well. We have the same 4-5 people posting and it's getting us nowhere at this point.
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EBWOB : "I personally am giving a lot of people the benefit of the doubt for being a newb or having their first game." should be the correct sentence.
Acrofales, what do you want me to say currently before they respond? I see 5 lurkers and I could pick any of them for various reasons, I'm willing to be patient and catch them slipping. If you want to question me, ask me my opinion on one of your own reads. Why should I be the only one contributing, my opinion is no more important than any of yours because this is a team-game. I can't win the game single-handedly, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the first person killed by Mafia, so I have to make the cases I make ironclad, and make sure of my reads before I die.
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On April 13 2012 06:39 BroodKingEXE wrote:
We have to be careful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP.
What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion.
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You two are both being inconsistent. Take a breath, write out a longer response than one sentence.
@HiroPro vonKlaust has a point, you were the only one of us to initially suspect Xatalos and voted so, but because you agree with his case towards vonKlaus now, you're willing to switch your vote and agree with the person you originally suspected? Also making a decision about lynching someone because he didn't or did vote his target is so arbitrarily illogical. Xatalos voted ArcticFox, now he's changing his vote, I have never even voted someone even though I had plenty of cause to (dittert, xatalos for the same reasons you originally stated) It's better to be consistent with your vote, changing votes constantly is scummy behavior because it shows that you are just looking for the easy lynch.
@vonKlaust You have been pretty lackluster so far as a town player. You have a lot of baggage now that people are targeting you on, I may not be inclined to lynch you as readily as Xatalos or HiroPro, but you also haven't convinced me of your innocence either. Who are you willing to keep your vote on as of this moment among your top candidates? Make a case.
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EBWOB, @ vonKlaust I see that you've voted HiroPro, make a case and convince the rest of the town.
@ HiroPro
On April 13 2012 08:03 HiroPro wrote:
Because the reason for me suspecting him was his bad case.....
Obviously if he posts an actual good case, he doesn't appear as mafia to me.
And the case against you has merit. I would also still like to know why you never voted for Xatalos if he was your strongest mafia read.
You originally suspect him for a bad case but as long as he posts one you agree with, it makes it okay? Also you need to post your own opinion on vonKlaust's behavior, because I'm not going to allow you to agree with him without any explanation. Why specifically do you think vonKlaust is scum besides the case Xatalos posted?
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23 hours 10 minutes from now.
I'd recommend you be around 1-2pm est tomorrow, I'll be making my case against the person I want to lynch most for D1.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote:
Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote:
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote:
Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote:
Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss!
Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions?
If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you.
You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not?
For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on?
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BroodKingEXE, I've taken a look through your filter (and I suggest everyone do the same) you have very little constructive posts of substance, and you wasted the beginning of D1 talking about policies. You keep harping on the importance for town to have narrowed it down to 1-2 candidates very early, why should we give Mafia the opportunity to blend in and bandwagon on a likely lynch? I also highly disagree with this line of thinking:
On April 13 2012 06:47 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:44 willz22912 wrote:On April 13 2012 06:39 BroodKingEXE wrote:
We have to be careful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion. Mafia look at the scum lists and figure out who has the best sense of who they are. They then kill them
You are trying to dissuade town from being transparent and posting their thoughts for fear of being a target by Mafia. I had this opinion too, why share your information so openly so early, but I learned from Gonzaw in Aperture Mafia that it's better to give 100% effort as town no matter if you die, in order to help the rest of the town figure out who's scum. Transparency and an active town is key to winning, you seem to be against this for fear of your own mortality, this is bad for town.
So far you have managed to post numerous times about random things and calling out the lurkers, but you have yet to support any of your actions with evidence. You initially vote for Dittert and now you are willing to suddenly drop the vote based off 1 post? You are also willing to change your mind to Yomi, another candidate with multiple people voting for him and an easy lynch?
What parts of his post do you specifically agree with when you say [quote= BroodKingEXE]You've put up some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off.[/quote] So far you've been just following people's thoughts and not posting your own or your own reasoning. Be more transparent.
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On April 13 2012 10:29 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote:
Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote:
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote:
Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote:
Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own.
Okay, let's waste some time then since we're both here. Do you think I'm scum, and do you agree with Dittert's suspicion of me? If so, please post why. I don't care about your opinion if you do nothing to support it, POST EVIDENCE. If you really think I'm scum, then go ahead and make a case. I'm trying to lead town to avoid lynching Dittert and he keeps posting things that will continue to get him lynched. Also what is this supposed to mean? The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. So how do you know who's mafia and who's opinion to ignore? Scumslipping perhaps?
This is a team based game, we need to be working together, I want to work with him, but if he's going to continue being suspicious of me, I'm going to write him off as well as his opinions.
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EBWOB: To clarify this paragraph:
What parts of his post do you specifically agree with when you say You've put up some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. So far you've been just following people's thoughts and not posting your own or your own reasoning. Be more transparent.[/QUOTE]
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@ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it.
1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p
2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what?
3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious?
4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes?
5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything?
6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time?
This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to.
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How am I supposed to convince him he's on the right track, let him lynch me? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of each other? I can't prove to him that I'm town, I can't prove for everyone else with 100% certainty what alignment he is.
The only people who know for sure are Mafia and a DT if we have one, but the DT can't use his ability until nighttime, so we can't even rely on that. What are you trying to show or prove by posting this?
I'm trying to get Dittert to drop his suspicions on me, he continues to keep them and is progressively adding additional people into this conspiracy he alone sees. He thinks the Mafia team consists of myself, ArcticFox, and Yomi. He claims this because of his original theory against me (that no one else is willing to agree with), my actions towards defending ArcticFox from Xatalos and me calling out Yomi to post more?
Town needs to defend other town from mis-lynches if they feel it is a mistake. I don't particularly need to believe in Dittert, but I don't need him being lynched by everyone else because he was an easy lynch. Do you not agree with this? Do you not want someone to defend you if you are town? You are continuing to propose poor decisions on the part of town, adding to my suspicions of you.
Also @ BroodKingEXE, where's the response to this: On April 13 2012 10:42 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:29 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote:
Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote:
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote:
Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote:
Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. Okay, let's waste some time then since we're both here. Do you think I'm scum, and do you agree with Dittert's suspicion of me? If so, please post why. I don't care about your opinion if you do nothing to support it, POST EVIDENCE. If you really think I'm scum, then go ahead and make a case. I'm trying to lead town to avoid lynching Dittert and he keeps posting things that will continue to get him lynched. Also what is this supposed to mean? So how do you know who's mafia and who's opinion to ignore? Scumslipping perhaps? This is a team based game, we need to be working together, I want to work with him, but if he's going to continue being suspicious of me, I'm going to write him off as well as his opinions.
You continue to dodge the question, do you seriously believe I am Mafia, if so, WHY. Don't keep posting comments on my posts if you're not going to do anything with them. How am I supposed to know who's really town and who's really Mafia, the answer is I don't. But I've seen mistakes like Dittert's play before, and I'm trying to convince others to ignore it, but if you've read the thread, Dittert was the #1 target for many people for his rng lynch proposal, and then for his followup case on me. I'm trying to get him to stop so he stops accruing suspicion, if I was Mafia, why wouldn't I let him continue to clog up the thread and then lynch him for being so suspicious like everyone else wanted to?
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Fine, I'm going to take your advice and ignore Dittert from now on, and go to sleep then, expect my case tomorrow on my proposed lynch target.
I remind you that you called me out on one post but did nothing of substance with that accusation. Now you've posted 3 more posts on this page adding to your filter without anything useful being added as well. I leave that for everyone else to ponder. Good night.
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Oh boy, looks like I got counter bandwagoned. Well, I'll address everyone's concerns shortly. First, I got a little personally annoyed by Dittert continuing to pick on me, and I let that get to me last night. Secondly, yes I kept proposing transparency and activity without posting my reads as much as I should have. That was to save it for my main case to see how my target would respond, and I got a load of information out of it, but it might have been too late to save myself. Thirdly, I have done a self examination of my posts and have found that I have posted too much, a lot of my questions to other players have gotten buried and ignored, so if I get to live I will tone it down.
Since the vote is already 5 against me, I'll lay out my case in my next post and my top mafia reads. If that doesn't sway your vote, fine, but I will have done the best I can to help town before my death, and I now understand that was I a bit too aggressive.
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My case against BroodKingEXE:
I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing?
1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox:
On April 12 2012 11:38 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:49 Dittert wrote:@Dittert:
The whole RNG thing makes tons of problems. First, how do you decide who determines the random number? We can't just decide to randomize some number "as a group". And how do you keep the guy randomizing from just pulling a random number out of his ass? How do you know the guy coming up with the number isn't scum and treats this as the perfect opportunity to off the player of his liking? All very good points that I did not think about prior to posting. I was just trying to get things flowing. As someone pointed out earlier, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie. I thought this way we could get a discussion about lynching someone started without having to necessarily lynch whoever did the suggesting. I feel it's okay if I have a terrible idea, with this being my first game of mafia in my whole life, and all... We're all newbies at this game, why duck responsibility for your statement? And the discussion was already rolling why did you feel the need to redirect the topic? Trying to establish yourself as the topic starter after an active discussion was already going on: feels a little scummy to me.
2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon:
@The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act.
3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia.
4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: On April 13 2012 06:37 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@wiliz The problem I have with Dittert is his inactivity, after making an accusation. My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity, but its almost halfway through the day and he hasn't put in much effort at all. Hiro has offered nothing substantial as well, bandwagoning on the suspicions of Xatalos. Dittert's claim seems more shaky to me \so I'm going to keep my vote on him.
We have to becareful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP.
Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind.
5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: On April 13 2012 10:17 BroodKingEXE wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote:
Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote:
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote:
Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote:
Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Glad to see you post Dittert. Innocence will save you, a townie will act like a townie and mafia like a mafia. No matter how hard they try the Mafia will always make mistakes, and as long as you are actively speaking we will be able to see the difference. You've put some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. I don't like your comment about an agenda though, as my only agenda should be helping the town. Me asking questions is my way of scumhunting, so I will continue to call out people on what I see. ##Unvote
So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here:
On April 13 2012 08:38 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@Yomi You vote for dittert. Which means you must make a case against him, or at least declare pressure vote. I started a policy discussion as well, so what makes Dittert more scummy than myself? If you think Artic is defending Dittert(if they are both mafia) I want to know what gives Dittert the lynch today and not tommorrow.
Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy?
6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert.
BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this:
This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us?
The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own.
He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide.
7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: On April 13 2012 11:25 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@willz You clearly said that his opinion about you didn't matter. You say that you having been defending dittert the whole time. You've only done that once as far as I can see. Even if you were defending dittert he doesn't owe you anything, if he thinks you are scum he can't kiss up to save his own hide. If he is thinking on the wrong track then you need to put him back on the right track. This discussion isn't wasted either if we can prove the alignment of each other that is 2 less people the town have to analyze.
I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not?
8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning.
So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing.
9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: On April 14 2012 00:54 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I have had time to look over the thread and have come up with some more evidence against willz. His posts are scummy in that they shoot down ideas of people. He hasn't analyzed anyones posts based on their content and seems to be denying open discussion based on who he thinks is scum. I have a problem with this as he said he is all for open discussion, yet he is shooting down ideas. He said that he didn't want to waste time discussing useless things, yet he dug in quite hard on trying to defend dittert even though he thought he was a newbie (and thus had no power). Also, in his in own words the discussion with me was wasted. He didn't chose to uphold his own values, in order to engage me( he didn't even state if he thought I was scum or not).
Vote: willz22912
@AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values.
So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town.
Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now.
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Forgot to vote:
Vote: BroodKingEXE
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On April 13 2012 22:54 Dittert wrote:+ Show Spoiler +##Unvote: yomi
##Vote: willz22912Yay! Now that my case against willz seems to be making more sense to people, I think we might actually be able to lynch him. Further evidence damning willz (in my eyes, at least): 1. He responds to my accusation of him with evidence... no, wait. Not evidence, just a list of questions. On April 13 2012 11:02 willz22912 wrote:
@ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it.
1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p
2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what?
3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious?
4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes?
5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything?
6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time?
This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. Basically every sentence in that post is a question. He even ends some of the ones that aren't questions with question marks. He can't defend himself with facts or statements because he hasn't really made any. The only thing he has to keep him from the gallows is smoke and mirrors. 2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum. By taking my vote off yomi, I do not think yomi is town. I'd just rather lynch willz because he's obviously the leader. We don't need him in here confusing the town anymore.
I made a rebuttal to you based on your accusations, I also admit I was angry so I rushed this response, but you never responded to this until now. I have asked you questions about why you think I originally intended to push your mis-lynch. I never stated ever that I believe you are anything but a newbie town. What reasoning do I have to defend you other than I believe we are both town and town should defend each other. Yet you ignore all of this and continue to push my lynch, on what grounds? I fail to see where I have given you the impression of my true Mafia behavior.
I also admit some of my anger and frustration were that you, in your own words have played poorly as town, this is your first Mafia game ever, yet I'm supposed to let you keep attacking me with no basis, and treat your opinion with as much weight as mine. I have played in Newbie V and to a lesser extent Aperture, this will be my last newbie game, and I have rolled town every single time, and I want to win as town, so I became way more aggressive than I usually am. I am sorry if I have personally offended you with my comments about the time you are able to spend. I get it, you have a job, you can't play this and be as active as other players. That's fine, I still think you're a newbie town who won't let go ( a common mistake) but now you're about to get me lynched and I'm just kind of sad.
I did not accuse anyone because I did not believe in their inherent scummy behavior. When I attacked you for your RNG proposal, I just told you to stop because it was anti-town, I did not immediately label you scum and try to drive your lynch. When Xatalos made his case against ArcticFox, I did not label Xatalos scum for trying to make a poor case, I saw that he was tunneling based on his own ideas from GoT. I only called out people who needed calling out and defended people who needed defending. Town defends other town, Mafia tries to bandwagon behind likely lynches and follows the town around.
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##Vote: BroodkingEXE
Thanks for pointing that out.
Anyway, adding on and trying to be as transparent as I can since I'm pretty much getting lynched.
My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy.
Here's his post: On April 13 2012 20:31 KharadBanar wrote:
Okay, I just got up and caught up with the thread, and that huge post by Acrofales did change my priorities here somewhat:
Before, my biggest scum reads went something like this: Dittert, yomi, HiroPro, maybe BroodKing (?)
I had my vote on yomi to get him to contribute something useful, which isn't going to happen until shortly before the deadline so it's useless on him for that purpose and better off on one of my bigger scum reads.
Now Acrofales has posted his suspicion on willz, I see some extremely good points in that post and did as he said (read through willz's filter (1) "knowing" he was mafia and (2) "knowing" he was town) and the mafia explanation really does make a lot more sense.
Now my scum reads go as follows: willz, probably Dittert, and likely one of yomi and HiroPro the lurkers.
With this in mind, and the fact that willz really needs to explain himself, I will change my vote to him for he is my biggest scum read right now.
##Unvote
##Vote: willz22912
So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before.
My last suspicion is either imallinson or HiroPro, I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have.
Lastly, I am also willing to give Yomi the benefit of the doubt and assume he's an overly defensive newb (since this is his first game as well) Say what you want about me OMGUSing my suspicions, I'm going to be dead after today, you need to remember these names and remember what I posted. I will try and be active as I can until the deadline in order to be of the most use to town.
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@vonKlaust
That is a fair point, I should have not have been a hypocrite, I was worried that if I jumped the gun on my case and my suspicions too early, the Mafia would have enough time to coordinate a defense of it. In my mind this made sense, but I can see where everyone else thinks that it's hypocritical, which it is, but it's really too late to argue. I am posting my reads now, but if it's not going to sway you, it's not going to sway you.
I fully accept that I over-reached and was too aggressive and now I am getting lynched for it. I may disagree with the basis, but I understand why it has come. I will continue to poke holes in people's logic for why they are voting me in an attempt to save myself, but it's mostly so the rest of the town can see who's scum and hiding on my bandwagon.
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Xatalos, you may agree with the case against me, but please correct this statement here:
On April 13 2012 23:39 Xatalos wrote:
Acrofales, I looked at Willz's filter and I agree something is off about him. It's weird, because initially he was my strongest town read (replaced by you later), but his later posts have been more and more suspicious. ArcticFox and imallinson addressed my cases against them by calmly finding the holes in my logic, but Willz didn't actually respond to Dittert's (somewhat weak) accusations - instead he chose to start an OMGUS war against Dittert ("why do you want to lynch me, I didn't want to lynch you before, but now I do, because you want to lynch me!"). He has also been saying everyone should be transparent, but he himself has been the opposite of transparent. Why would a townie indeed want to hide his opinions so much?
I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop.
If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon.
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EPT
