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imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:18 Acrofales wrote: Because I am currently trying to figure out Xatalos: imallison, mind telling me why you think he's so townie? Mainly because he was the first person to go out of his way to voice his suspicions of someone. That strikes me as very town like play. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17848 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:19 imallinson wrote: Mainly because he was the first person to go out of his way to voice his suspicions of someone. That strikes me as very town like play. That was spectacularly underwhelming. Posting a case on someone is not a tell of anything, plenty of reason for scum to post cases (and I should know, I spent most of GoT mafia blowing up townie's mistakes into cases). He probably has the largest filter of anybody and your reason for listing him as your strongest town read is that he was the first to post a case. I won't ask for more, but I hope not everybody is as gullible as that. | ||
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imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:33 Acrofales wrote: That was spectacularly underwhelming. Posting a case on someone is not a tell of anything, plenty of reason for scum to post cases (and I should know, I spent most of GoT mafia blowing up townie's mistakes into cases). He probably has the largest filter of anybody and your reason for listing him as your strongest town read is that he was the first to post a case. I won't ask for more, but I hope not everybody is as gullible as that. He is my strongest town read because I have no sort of town read on anyone else. It certainly isn't super strong and if someone had a good argument against him I could be swayed. I assumed that scum wouldn't want to put themselves out there like Xalatos had. I guess that scum could hide behind that which I hadn't thought of. Thank you for pointing that out. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
On April 13 2012 03:20 Xatalos wrote: I agree with you that the response from ArcticFox was good. It still doesn't mean he is town. You, like Willz, fail to see that metagame was only the starting point of my case, not the "meat" of it. The major part of my case was his flow of useless posts about policies and blues, neither related to Mafia-hunt but easy to talk about for Mafia (without giving town any new information). However, by no means is ArcticFox a "must-lynch" for me - just that he is my preference at the moment. Also, you have to admit my case on ArcticFox has generated a lot of useful discussion and possible Mafia slips (we can't know them all yet, as some of them will become more clear once some player's alignments are revealed). I'm all for pushing another lynch target, since everyone voting for ArcticFox would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in. Seeing players' reactions to different lynch pushes will be very helpful. I went back to research Xatalos filter after this incident: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14321137 And found this piece of text. This strikes me as pretty awkward. Not only is he trying to justify his case by saying that it generated discussion, but he also proposes to push another lynch target, not because he thinks that ArticFox is a bad lynch, but because "It would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in". Of course pushing for lynches generates discussion, but that does not justify pushing bad lynches. Of course you can use votes to pressure, but your vote against ArticFox don't really come across as a pressure vote to me. Also it feels a bit wierd that you seem so decisive while still saying stuff like "By no means is ArticFox a must-lynch for me" and "I'm all for pushing another lynch target". Especially when you earlier in the game wrote stuff like: There's only so much you can do 7 hours into the game, but what I've got from these posts has been VERY useful + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14315170 I suggest everyone to read my case on ArcticFox and vote for him. I'd put his chances of being Mafia at 70-80%, which is extremely high for me considering it's this early. + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14315248 It feels like you're trying to get out of the lynch-train you created in the first place, while still maintaining ArticFox as a prime suspect. As far as I can tell, you didn't really ever back down from your claims. You just went defensive when people started to criticize your case. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
We can have multiple candidates up for lynching with plurality vote, the person with the most votes among the candidates gets lynched (it's a lot better and easier to deal with than majority voting). Don't tunnel on one or two likely cases, we need to actively engage everyone so that no one has a chance to lurk or hide behind someone else, and that scum don't get a chance to bandwagon on an easy lynch. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17848 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
@Xatalos I don't like the line of reasoning you used to accuse AFox. Blending in and talking about blue roles also applies to blues as well. Newbie blues will often obsess about blue strategy and try to get input from the forum. Alternately they could try to blend in with the town.We can't really focus on the fact that he is mentioning blues, more we focusing on things like his accusation against vK. Its a flawed line of thinking that I won't condemn you for. Going off that... @vK The tone of this post is very suspicious to me. You offer no reasoning as to why AFox is scum, choosing instead to bandwagon onto the logic of Xalatos. The post reeks of suggesting you are being a newbie (I underlined the tones). Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read. On April 12 2012 21:36 vonKlaust wrote: Ok, I must disappointedly admit that I feel pretty lost. So far I think most cases have felt a bit rushed, but I guess that could be because I'm simply not used to this kind of speculative reasoning. I do however think that Xatalos case on ArticFox seems to carry some truth. If I would have to vote right now, I would probably go with this. Both the blue-talk and the policy lynching-talk seems a bit odd. I guess you could agrue that ArticFox could be blue himself, but it doesn't strike me as very natural behaviour to talk so much about blues if you are one yourself since you would desperately want to stay hidden. I'm not quite as confident about this as Xatalos seems to be, but to me this seems to be the best analysis so far. Some people have been critical towards Dittert and his RNG-talk. To me he comes across more as a nervous newbie(no offence, I'm pretty much a nervous newbie myself!) than scum. I think he's sincere about the claim that he was actually after sparking discussion rather than actually pushing for RNGing. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:24 vonKlaust wrote: Oh yes, I care to weigh in. First off, yes I wrote two meaningless oneliners right in the beginning of the game. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 08:54 vonKlaust wrote: Alright people, start typing! We know you're out there. So far only a handful of us have posted. On April 12 2012 08:56 vonKlaust wrote: Just noticed that the game had been going for 50 minutes. Lol, maybe I should be a tad more patient. Sure, those comments were not necessery or helpfull but I wouldn't really call my filter "Full of useless junk" because of that. I think it's pretty clear that I meant that it's inevitable that innocents get lynched, and that there will be people who makes bad reads, and people bandwagoning those. At least that has been the case in the games which I have participated in. Well, I AM confused. And I can agree that I come across as somebody who doesn't take solid stances. I don't know alot about this game, and I try to be humble to that fact. I say what I think, but you're likely not gonna see me write something like "I am perfectly comfident this is how we should play this game" or "I know for a fact that X is scum". That's just not how my brain works. If you actually read what I wrote the post before: + Show Spoiler + So what I was thinking was that it would be better to wait for a while, since it's pretty natural for people not to have posted yet, and putting out a vote later when the person you're pressuring have actually made posts which you can use in your pressure-attempt. I can't imagine that you would feel very pressured by the kind of pressure vote KharadBanar made. Thinking about it, what you say makes sense though. I guess throwing votes around seemingly lighly is a pretty good way to get lynched yourself. You might notice that this is pretty much what Willz wrote. He posted when I was writing, and thus, I didn't see his post until after I was done. When I read it I thought that he put it much better than I did, and therefore I added: + Show Spoiler + What Willz wrote was pretty much what I was thinking. In case I did a bad job making myself understandable. Please note that in the post I made just after Willz' post, I was elaborating what I wrote in an even earlier post. I was not just copying what Willz were saying. What does this even mean? He doesn't seem suspicious, and that's why he is suspicious? I don't think my filter looks as bad as you're saying. It is true that I haven't accused anyone, or said something like "This is definitley what we should do". But that is simply because I don't really know what to look for in scumhunting(escpecially this early), and I have no idea what to do day 1. Hell, if everyone hadn't trashed Ditters RNG-idea, I might aswell have concidered it. I have just been trying to keep the discussion going. On the topic of scum, I'll repeat what I said in my last post. I don't really know and I'm definitley not ready to set my vote, but if I had to go for anyone right now, it probably would be you. In this post you make counter argument whatsoever. If you think you did put constructive posts, you would have used those as counter-examples. Once again you go into how you were confused. If you really dont understand, we will call you on it, but it is a far cry from a lynch. The funny thing about this is that you read through the Newbie Guide, so you should have known about this. Your latest post was semi-reasonable, as Xatalos might still have suspicions but is choosing to go after AFox. @The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act. I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). He also flat out claims a lie, that could've easily been a mistake (his post against yomi). He doesn't seem to want to follow the way of the town (we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to policy lynch). Overall I think he needs to put in better input for the amount of gunslinging he is doing. ##Vote: Dittert | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
Xatalos: You posted a lot of accusations so far, but a lot of the cases seem not very thought out. You want reads from other people, but you have to realize that too many slight reads actually distract focus from town; we should agree on the ones that seem most substantial and try to lynch into those. imallinson: Your recent defense seems OK-ish, your case on trumpetarn actually somewhat thought out. We could definitely look into that more. Acrofales: Calling out yomi seems like a right thing to do right now, because he really has some things to explain right now. You may actually really be on to something with this read. And: Dittert: What the hell? First you bring up the discussion about random lynches, then you disappear for a while, and then you get really aggressive about willz? How is that supposed to help us find scum, especially since willz is not the most solid scum read we have right now. Since I begun writing this post, there is also vonKlaust who has a rather large post: You make a valid argument there, but I still think there are more viable lynch targets out there (yomi, Dittert; also trumpetarn and HiroPro if they're not willing to post more). | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
Yes, me going with Xatalos against ArticFox was stupid. At the time, I tought the case looked strong, but looking back at it it doesn't seem that good of a case at all. I think I latched onto it because it was the only case going at the moment, and because I just didn't know what to do. I had a look at peoples filters, but I really felt that I couldn't find anything of value. It is true that I have not contributed that much when it comes to scum hunting. I've tried both to look at peoples filters and analyzing the thread in general, but pretty much to no avail until those posts by Xatalos caught my eye. So instead I tried to give feedback on other peoples ideas. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:26 vonKlaust wrote: @BroodKingEXE Yes, me going with Xatalos against ArticFox was stupid. At the time, I tought the case looked strong, but looking back at it it doesn't seem that good of a case at all. I think I latched onto it because it was the only case going at the moment, and because I just didn't know what to do. I had a look at peoples filters, but I really felt that I couldn't find anything of value. It is true that I have not contributed that much when it comes to scum hunting. I've tried both to look at peoples filters and analyzing the thread in general, but pretty much to no avail until those posts by Xatalos caught my eye. So instead I tried to give feedback on other peoples ideas. Feedback on other people's ideas is not enough. You just recently made a post about Xatalos' case against Arcticfox when numerous people have already commented on it. Post your top scum read or top town read and have a unique opinion. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
Top Scum read is much harder. I still have a feeling that Dittert is just a confused townie. I think the whole RNG-thing have been blown out of proportions and I think his weak case against Willz might have been rushed since he felt pressured to contribute to the scumhunt. I'm unsure about Xatalos. While he have done a couple of potential scumslips he feels a tad to vocal for a mafia member. And those slips can just have been the result of bad reasoning, even though I doubt it. HiroPro also comes across as a bit suspiscious. The way he has just popped in a couple of times. Both of the times short after someone called him out as lurking. It makes me feel he is actively lurking. I would like HiroPro to write more, but for now I think I'll go with Xatalos as my prime suspect. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). He also flat out claims a lie, that could've easily been a mistake (his post against yomi). He doesn't seem to want to follow the way of the town (we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to policy lynch). Overall I think he needs to put in better input for the amount of gunslinging he is doing. ##Vote: Dittert What is this vote? You're going to vote him because he's a bad town and that's "usually mafia" ? Dittert's case against me is mostly OMGUS, it has no basis, and I don't need any defending and you don't need any other explanation other than he made a really bad case against me? Put more effort in your reasoning, Dittert is way too easy of a target, and I stand by my opinion that he's just a newbie town that had his idea shut down really hard and is scrambling to come up with something to contribute. Post your opinion on anyone else besides Dittert for your top scum picks, don't tunnel on him. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:45 imallinson wrote: He is my strongest town read because I have no sort of town read on anyone else. It certainly isn't super strong and if someone had a good argument against him I could be swayed. I assumed that scum wouldn't want to put themselves out there like Xalatos had. I guess that scum could hide behind that which I hadn't thought of. Thank you for pointing that out. What's your opinion on my claims against you? Bandwagoning on any vote without good cause is still bandwagoning, even if you're the first person. If I have a different opinion of Xatalos's case vs ArcticFox and I disagree with it, but you still agree with him (meaning you don't agree with my interpretation), why? I also find it highly unlikely that you have no other town reads on anyone else, you just didn't think of anyone else because Xatalos's case against ArcticFox was the only discussion point. Be more assertive and decisive in your opinions. If one good argument sways you then you are the type of town Mafia love to keep around because you sheep other people's thoughts. Don't keep to this line of thinking. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
I'm leaning strongly towards imallinson at this point because he hasn't posted anything unique for himself, he's been hiding behind supporting your case against Arcticfox. Other reads I have now I am not willing to divulge at this point so they don't get defensive early, I'm curious to see how some of my suspects proceed as we still have 29 hours to go till deadline. I'll post a case on my vote target after I collect more evidence. + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14320800 I would like you to get into specifics on why you're leaning towards imallinson. And maybe it's time to talk about those other reads. Who's your top town candidate? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'm waiting on responses from at least half the thread, I'm not going to make a case based on this little posting, that's not going to convince anyone. I will have a case written up and posted at least 4-5 hours before deadline tomorrow(~1-2pm est), so that's enough time for discussion. Specifically, I'm calling out Yomi, BroodkingExe, HiroPro, imallinson, trumpetarm to post something, at least either their top town or scum read and their own opinions. I'm tired of seeing people pick on the easiest targets with little to no explanation. | ||
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