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On February 17 2012 21:10 Forumite wrote:
Who are scum? Kurumi flip means I won´t die right now, but it didn´t give much on where scum hide. If anyone have a likely scumteam, please tell me, because I don´t want to shoot a townie by mistake.
My advice is to ask yourself what would Toad do...
... and then do the opposite. 
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I'm actually looking through filters now Forumite. What are your thoughts on the scumlist I provided earlier?
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On February 17 2012 21:19 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:10 Forumite wrote:
Who are scum? Kurumi flip means I won´t die right now, but it didn´t give much on where scum hide. If anyone have a likely scumteam, please tell me, because I don´t want to shoot a townie by mistake. My advice is to ask yourself what would Toad do... ... and then do the opposite.
But to answer your question. I still think the scumteam is:
VE
hiro
Razor
JayJay
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I don't think you can go wrong with shooting tyrran/rayzor.
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jayjay being a close third.
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On February 17 2012 21:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm actually looking through filters now Forumite. What are your thoughts on the scumlist I provided earlier?
I think your scumlist is the right. On the other hand that´s from playing with these people with the suspicions I had at the time. The scum on your scumlist are extra scummy due to them trying to stop Kurumi getting lynched, but that was based on my worry that Kurumi and rg were really scum together. They were not both scum, but I wonder how rg acting yesterday fits into all this.
If risk says Mr Freeze doesn´t protect him, and rg objects, is this them tricking scum or rg fakeclaiming Freeze? Risk hasn´t confirmed the existance of Mr Freeze in this setup after all, and risk correctly named me, so I´m inclined to believe risk if they were somehow opposed. Then again, they had WBG for one night, did they check me that night?
No, I don´t really think this is an elaborate scumplot, but it´s easy to get very, very paranoid, which is why I´m glad there are some other players around who are good at analyzing. I´m going to do my own rereading later tonight, but right now VE's scumlist is what I think, but not what I would expect from a scumteam where their 3 most skilled members are dead. If it´s VE's 4 players, then they are pushing their agenda over trying to blend in, which doesn´t make sense.
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On February 17 2012 21:46 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm actually looking through filters now Forumite. What are your thoughts on the scumlist I provided earlier? I think your scumlist is the right. On the other hand that´s from playing with these people with the suspicions I had at the time. The scum on your scumlist are extra scummy due to them trying to stop Kurumi getting lynched, but that was based on my worry that Kurumi and rg were really scum together. They were not both scum, but I wonder how rg acting yesterday fits into all this. If risk says Mr Freeze doesn´t protect him, and rg objects, is this them tricking scum or rg fakeclaiming Freeze? Risk hasn´t confirmed the existance of Mr Freeze in this setup after all, and risk correctly named me, so I´m inclined to believe risk if they were somehow opposed. Then again, they had WBG for one night, did they check me that night? No, I don´t really think this is an elaborate scumplot, but it´s easy to get very, very paranoid, which is why I´m glad there are some other players around who are good at analyzing. I´m going to do my own rereading later tonight, but right now VE's scumlist is what I think, but not what I would expect from a scumteam where their 3 most skilled members are dead. If it´s VE's 4 players, then they are pushing their agenda over trying to blend in, which doesn´t make sense.
You are very right about your view on rg. I have been thinking some of the same. There is a chance that Mr.Freeze isn't in the game and that rg have done a fakeclaim (if Mr.Freeze don't have a protection role to Two-Face). His play sure enough have been strange enough for this to be the case. Also his very anti-town behaviour yesterday makes one wonder.
But, he should in no way be a target by anyone tonight. As I find it much more likely that he is telling the truth.
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On February 17 2012 21:37 Palmar wrote:
I don't think you can go wrong with shooting tyrran/rayzor.
Rayzor also was unafraid to die to enable 3 town KP. I mean, there's requesting people kill you ad nauseum (hiro protagonist) until the phrase holds no meaning, and there's almost chipper realization that "Oh shucks, guess you guys have to lynch me!"
@Forumite
That wouldn't make sense - unless there's a pretty clear and popular other lynch candidate lined up for tomorrow. That would afford them the freedom to stick their necks out. Especially with players like Palmar calling others scum just for suspecting them :S
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On February 17 2012 21:46 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm actually looking through filters now Forumite. What are your thoughts on the scumlist I provided earlier? I think your scumlist is the right. On the other hand that´s from playing with these people with the suspicions I had at the time. The scum on your scumlist are extra scummy due to them trying to stop Kurumi getting lynched, but that was based on my worry that Kurumi and rg were really scum together. They were not both scum, but I wonder how rg acting yesterday fits into all this. If risk says Mr Freeze doesn´t protect him, and rg objects, is this them tricking scum or rg fakeclaiming Freeze? Risk hasn´t confirmed the existance of Mr Freeze in this setup after all, and risk correctly named me, so I´m inclined to believe risk if they were somehow opposed. Then again, they had WBG for one night, did they check me that night? No, I don´t really think this is an elaborate scumplot, but it´s easy to get very, very paranoid, which is why I´m glad there are some other players around who are good at analyzing. I´m going to do my own rereading later tonight, but right now VE's scumlist is what I think, but not what I would expect from a scumteam where their 3 most skilled members are dead. If it´s VE's 4 players, then they are pushing their agenda over trying to blend in, which doesn´t make sense.
if you shoot into that list, you're scum.
Seriously, if you don't say right now that you will shoot rayzor or tyrran, I will personally shoot you tonight.
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...you realize tyran is on the list that he's scum for shooting into? Just sayin.
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Hey guys, I have to drive from Munich to Cologne (even further) in 15 minutes. Traffic and weather is horrible, it will probably take me like 8 hours to get there. So I’ll probably won’t muster up the strength to read through the thread again tonight, I’ll be posting tomorrow.
GJ lynching CW, that was the right choice!
Two topics I want to address. A) Defending me, B) NKs
______________________________
Defending myself:
I don’t know why I am called scum that much. I contribute more than most in this game, my posts have a lot of content, I am vocal and I call things out when I see them.
Voting behavior: Yes, I couldn’t decide if Rad or Palmar was saying the truth. Rad gave a valid DT check and you guys act as if it was crystal clear. If I don’t like my obvious lynch choices, I go for my own scum reads, which was hero that day. Day 1, I didn’t like Sheth and CC either and went for Doc who even said himself that he acted scummy.
That is not a scum sign. If you want to, look up my votings in TL Mafia L. My vote for GGQ comes to mind when there was a huge bandwagon on KJ which I didn’t like at all. GGQ had no real chance to be lynched that day, yet, I went for him and I will continue to do so. Stray votes are not necessarily bad, unless you are convinced of something and don’t push for it.
Day 2, I was sure and pushed for Sheth actively and Day 4 I was sure too that CW is the right choice. I did not defend VE, I want him dead ASAP, but killing CW first was the right option to me
I am also fairly convinced that VE is scum and I push for it. So if you think I am not taking responsibility, please think again.
Moreover, I was the first one to actively defend Doc and Toad from that ridiculous check D2. I saw Toads role and immediately stated that his legit and Doc, too.
Taking responsibility, if you think is right….
Posting Style:
Not everyone likes my posting style and my reads. But I am vocal and contribute. More information are always better than less. I like putting reads out there just to get discussions going. I normally summarize my thoughts each day, trying to be as transparent as possible. IMO, that is good town play.
I’ll also continue to call everyone out who calls me scum and defend myself. If you think that is scummy, it isn’t. Again, for reference check my filter in L where I do as well, even against the most ridiculous accusations. Everyone who calls me scum usually gets an answer, no matter how scummy he is himself. More information > Less information.
If you have issues with my play, that’s fine. When I read rgs post, I always die a little inside. That doesn’t mean he’s scum yet. Same applies if I call you scum. Maybe you just look a little scummy, you should always ask yourself, if you do.
Alright, I guess that’s it for defense. Before you shoot me, look at my filter. Gut feeling alone is not enough. Every action and vote I take has a reasoning. I contribute and am transparent. If you think I analyze too much, chances are that you are in the wrong game.
References:
Note that this is my second game, I can only provide this, role: Medic
TL Mafia L Jayjay54 Filter
TL Mafia L Voting
_____________________________
NKs:
VE: He needs to die. I thought we agree on that. His defenses are terrible. The things, I defended him for at the beginning of the game are pretty much gone. The town VE I got to know in L was aggressive tunneling, both is lacking here. His analysis efforts are vanilla and don’t add anything IMO. He is scum and needs to die. Palmar, would you be so kind?
Shooting Rayzor is a terrible idea. He is in the Riddler game and there’s a good chance that he will die anyways (especially assuming palmar can’t die to it). This is not to say that he is town to me. But I just believe we would be risking wasting a KP.
Tyran seems like a reasonable choice. His random town reads on me and risk seemed like strange buddying. His efforts for a “base trade” weren’t town favored either. I’d hit him.
Hiro looks scummy as shit, but because nobody takes a stance for him ever, I can see him being bad town, too. Still a decent target.
RGs actions don’t make sense whatsoever. The accusations of risk, were just so random. He also blew risk’s cover. I don’t get why Kurumi tried to save his life that badly either, since the game wasn’t going any team’s way yet…There is something wrong here. A town player can’t make that many wrong decisions in a single game…
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I should read posts before I read shiny stuff.
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Jayjay, if you won´t reveal your rolename, why would you reveal your power? Why not reveal both?
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He was Medic the last time he played.....
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I think you guys have it backwards, rG said Freeze doesn't protect two-face, risk nuke said he did. This claim was only to scare scum away from two-face, so I see nothing wrong in the rG department right now.
I believe jayjays claim and it makes perfect sense. Now the scum will have to double stack risk.nuke if they want to get rid of him. They really can't afford to be double stacking right now. Each one almost gives us a new lynch, which is exactly what they can't afford to do.
If I had a KP, I'd smoke hiro, evantrees, tyrran or possibly rayzor. You could kill VE for giggles also.
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JayJay I'd like you to make a case on me. Please don't refer to posts you've already made, I want you to tell me in your own words right now what you find suspicious about my behavior. If I die tonight, town is going to be looking at YOU when I flip, keep this in mind while responding to me.
Also, we're not killing VE for giggles. We're well beyond killing people for giggles. Scum aren't going to touch me because I'm obviously lynchbait, but if vigs kill me it had better fucking be because they think I'm scum and not for giggles. -.-
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On February 18 2012 02:30 Adam4167 wrote:
I think you guys have it backwards, rG said Freeze doesn't protect two-face, risk nuke said he did. This claim was only to scare scum away from two-face, so I see nothing wrong in the rG department right now.
I believe jayjays claim and it makes perfect sense. Now the scum will have to double stack risk.nuke if they want to get rid of him. They really can't afford to be double stacking right now. Each one almost gives us a new lynch, which is exactly what they can't afford to do.
If I had a KP, I'd smoke hiro, evantrees, tyrran or possibly rayzor. You could kill VE for giggles also.
4am thread reading -_-
Ignore the second paragraph, I see my mistake. Rest is still good.
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On February 18 2012 05:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
Also, we're not killing VE for giggles.
Yes we are.
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An Introspective Journey into the Varied Town-Favoring Decisions Made By VisceraEyes
By: VisceraEyes
First I'm going to explore several of the reasons I'm being accused in detail.
- Lack of Meaningful Contribution
- Intentional Overlooking of Suspicious Behavior
- Manipulative Argumentation Strategies
- Inactivity
- Pushing of Scum Agenda
Lack of Meaningful Contribution/Inactivity
I’ve got something of a reputation here in Team Liquid that I’m trying to dispel. I’m known as that guy who types a lot of crazy shit that doesn’t make much sense to anyone. I chose this game to attempt a different tactic. Instead of typing every little thing that pops into my head at any given time, leading to a spammy cluttered thread, I decided to instead just observe the thread, comment only where I felt necessary and post my reads every day, with an emphasis on relevance and succinctness. My voting pattern hasn’t changed - I still vote for whomever I feel is the most scummy (or in the case of this game, who is the largest threat to town as a whole), but the way I’ve approached actually playing the game has changed dramatically. It is for this reason that I believe players who have played with me and feel they know my ‘meta’ have been thrown off by my play...because I actually AM playing differently than I’d normally play as town.
Intentional Overlooking of Suspicious Behavior
This is another of Palmar’s gripes. I have a feeling he and several others of you feel like I’ve been overlooking blatantly suspicious behavior for one reason or another. All I can say in my defense of this is that if I haven’t called someone scum, it’s either because I have a town read on them for different reasons, or because I haven’t looked into them at all (inactivity, spammy nature, etc.) Due to the nature of this game, I’m not really inclined to doll out my town reads for obvious reasons. I’m very willing to discuss reads with anyone however, and if anyone would actually LIKE my opinion on something, I’m always willing to look into people on request. However, due to my reputation, I come into games assuming no one wants my opinions until I’ve established that I’m coherent in-game. Somewhere along the way I’ve failed this game, but I feel it has a lot to do with the way I’ve approached this game.
Manipulative Argumentation Strategies
This was one of hiro protagonist’s reasons for “knowing” I’m scum. While I won’t admit to being ‘manipulative’, I will say that this is a game of persuasion and I’m trying to achieve goals just like everyone else. Incidentally, he’s accusing me of “playing mafia” because town try and persuasively argue with other town to try and get their lynch target lynched just as often as scum. And because he provided no context with his accusation, I can’t refute the specific instances, only broadly address his complaint.
Pushing of Scum Agenda
This one is pretty vague, because by definition only scum know their agenda and they’re not sharing it with town. I know that the only thing I can think of that can even be construed as me furthering a scum agenda was my staunch opposition to the Radfield lynch. And I’ve given my reasoning for this several times because by my estimation it’s the most incriminating thing I’ve done this game. However, given my belief in the Sheth lynch that Radfield’s claim assured, in my opinion the fact that Radfield actually flipped scum is NOT indicative of scum alignment where I’m concerned. In fact, Radfield actually called me a good vig target alongside Palmar early on in the game, so I’d actually say it’s indicative of my TOWN alignment if anything. WBG was also harshly critical of me and called me scum several times. The point is that I’ve been accused of pushing a scum agenda (most hilariously by layabout) and I’d like everyone to take a look at my involvement in the game as a whole before just accepting this as fact and killing me with a bullet tonight.
Now, I’ve left off a couple of entire cases, for this reason: I’ve addressed the points that are actually indicative of my alignment above. Cases such as those of RazorFlash and JayBrundage can be ignored. JayBrundage is basing one of his major points on the fact that I was on a SCUM lynch by Hood’s Breath. It’s held up by the fact that I was against a Radfield lynch, which is accurate, but the premises are conflicting.
Radfield was scum
Radfield was on the Sheth lynch
Sheth was scum
Scum are bussing
VS
Radfield was scum
VE was not on the Radfield lynch
Radfield was scum
Scum are not bussing
See where I’m going with this? It’s not a logical argument, it’s putting a bunch of facts together in a way that makes me seem scummy, when all I really did was vocally stick to my guns about my beliefs.
And RazorFlash’s case, upon rereading it, actually IS scummy as fuck. He uses some kind of percentage-based “scummeter” to determine an overall picture of my scumminess. Great. But here’s the problem: the numbers are completely arbitrary in regard to the content he provides supporting them. For example,
Day 3 - 60% scum - The Day of Reckoning
- VEHEMENTLY defends Radfield and goes after Palmar, the WORST case of this amongst everyone out there - 80% scum
- Is willing to get hiro lynched instead of Radfield - 75%
- VERY quickly changes votes from Palmar who he's been super pushing for a full day to me and then Chaoser based on Kita's claim - 90$ scum
First of all, his total for day 3, which he’s taken special note of how scummy it was, was 60% scum. But if you look at the content, he picks out three actions I took that day (which I’ll agree were probably the keystone decisions I made that day) and assigns values to each of them, which are all WELL above 60%. They’re not averaged - the average of the 3 values is something like 81.66666%....it’s just a random 60%. Here’s something to think about though -
Day 2 - 60% scum
- Very very excited about the prospect of a Sheth lynch finally happening
- Gets defensive very easily again... passive aggression is annoying
- Wants to see Sheth dead, and is decently considering a Hiro lynch still...
- Gets into a small bicker with Bugs and considers going after him... 55%
Another 60% period on the scumometer, but look at the actions he notes:
Excited about his (ultimately scum) lynch taking off;
considering hiro (a person he agrees with to a degree);
considers going after someone else who ultimately flips scum
This is the part that really astounds me - my super-scummy day and my most pro-town day (according to the facts) afford me the exact same scum-o-meter reading? Really? These numbers are COMPLETELY meaningless.
Night 3 - 90% scum
- Still pushing for a Palmar lynch even though he's confirmed Batman and Joker is more or less dead
- killing a pro-town power role for no real reason??
- Gets super emotional again... ia annoying, but not necessarily scummy
- Wants people to kill JayBrundage randomly, just because his vote didnt actually switch? wtf?
First of all, I was pushing a Palmar lynch for the sole purpose of saving Joker because it had become obvious in-thread that Toad was Joker and Clayface had just eaten it. Toad’s bad aim aside, town KP is going to be very powerful (one way or the other) and because I suspect Palmar of being Batman, I wanted him lynched before he could kill Joker. However, none of this matters ultimately according to RazorFlash - because by his estimation Palmar has a “pro-town power role”, in spite of being third-party and by definition does not have town’s best interest in mind.
And this scored me 90% on the HerpDerp’O’Meter, 30% higher than the day he noted as being particularly bad for me.
The whole thing is just a mess of him stringing together events that, while they involve me, are not indicative of my alignment in the way he says. Not at all.
Where do we go from here?
We stop entertaining the ridiculous notion that VE is scum, for a start, and we start killing scum. I actually prefer a bullet for JayBrundage or RayzorFlash at this point - call it OMGUS if you want, but JayBrundage, in addition to building a farcical case against me has also been taunting me to try and make me scummily freak out as I’m known to do. He’s definately scum. RayzorFlash I’m less sold on, but after dissecting his case and hearing Palmar’s thoughts on him, I’d say he needs a bullet just as much if not more than JB at this point. The riddle-bombs are likely to go off tonight, and JB has one of those attached to him according to Kita (correct me if I’m wrong) so he might be taken care of anyway. Tomorrow, if Palmar is still around, force him to give you the whole scum-team because once he hits his mark, he’ll be gone.
In closing, regardless of what you think my motivations are, these are the facts:
- I made a correct meta-call on Sheth and pushed for his lynch until he died and flipped scum
- I correctly called out WBG as scum
- I’ve provided my reads and reasoning every day, and made myself available for discussion all game long.
- I along with several others was able to convince town to do the pro-town thing in getting rid of Catwoman during this day phase
I’m trying to win with town. These facts don’t prove it, but they certainly support my claim. Please take the time to read over my posts if you’re thinking about gifting me a hot slug. I honestly don’t deserve it.
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EPT
