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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I know you know how syllogism and I(Palmar) play with each other. If I want him lynched people are going to notice. And not to mention, I have no interest in lynching syllogism day 1 as scum or town, I know he can be lazy as either alignment, and his scumplay isn't particularly scary so far, while his town play is some of the best on TL.
What ARE your throughts on syllo, Palmar? A null read, or are you leaning one way or the other?
I'm against any kind of lynch on Soap, Corrupt or Truthbringer. I realize no real bandwagons have gotten rolling against them, but I want to preemptively stop any. All three of these players are 'easy lynches', that is, easy for mafia to make a case against them and leave their vote there, basically skirting any real responsibility to scum-hunt.
Something is up with Jackal this game, and I'd be ok lynching him at this point. However, I'm not going to push this hard on my own. Palmar, Syllo and Sandro, you guys were all in Merc Mini, how would you compare Jackal's demeanor and tone this game to that one. How would you compare it to a game he was town, like LOTR?
Syllo, I agree on Heir. That case looked like he was told to go after you by another player. I'm ok voting him, but ideally I want to hear more first. Heir, speak up!
Hyshes, Drazerk and Lanaia all need to pick it up or are going to find themselves on the wrong end of a Day 1 lynch. Likewise, Supersoft you are here now, make it count.
##Unvote
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 21:23 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
meh palmar you're ok for now
can't get over corrupt saying "so many suspicious people" and then only being able to list 1 and then ignoring my pushing of the issue.
##Vote Corrupt
I agree there is something slightly off about Corrupt, but I think that makes him an excellent target for a vig or hatter, NOT an excellent Day 1 lynch.
What do you think?
+ Show Spoiler +I'm not against the pressure though
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On December 05 2011 21:30 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +I know you know how syllogism and I(Palmar) play with each other. If I want him lynched people are going to notice. And not to mention, I have no interest in lynching syllogism day 1 as scum or town, I know he can be lazy as either alignment, and his scumplay isn't particularly scary so far, while his town play is some of the best on TL. What ARE your throughts on syllo, Palmar? A null read, or are you leaning one way or the other? I'm against any kind of lynch on Soap, Corrupt or Truthbringer. I realize no real bandwagons have gotten rolling against them, but I want to preemptively stop any. All three of these players are 'easy lynches', that is, easy for mafia to make a case against them and leave their vote there, basically skirting any real responsibility to scum-hunt. Something is up with Jackal this game, and I'd be ok lynching him at this point. However, I'm not going to push this hard on my own. Palmar, Syllo and Sandro, you guys were all in Merc Mini, how would you compare Jackal's demeanor and tone this game to that one. How would you compare it to a game he was town, like LOTR? Syllo, I agree on Heir. That case looked like he was told to go after you by another player. I'm ok voting him, but ideally I want to hear more first. Heir, speak up! Hyshes, Drazerk and Lanaia all need to pick it up or are going to find themselves on the wrong end of a Day 1 lynch. Likewise, Supersoft you are here now, make it count. ##Unvote
I'm leaning town on Syllo, mostly because of how much he's posting and how directly he's tackling questions and issues he feels need to be looked at.
Also, no one lynches my homeboy Soap, he's totally down on the RNG train with me. He's officially my best buddy this game.
I can't read Jackal, also merc mini is a terrible game to compare to for his scum-play, because since day 1 he knew he could just as well win with town. So all he had to do was to not get lynched. In any case I don't want to lynch him right now.
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On December 05 2011 21:32 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 21:23 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
meh palmar you're ok for now
can't get over corrupt saying "so many suspicious people" and then only being able to list 1 and then ignoring my pushing of the issue.
##Vote Corrupt I agree there is something slightly off about Corrupt, but I think that makes him an excellent target for a vig or hatter, NOT an excellent Day 1 lynch. What do you think? + Show Spoiler +I'm not against the pressure though
Why?
It's far more demoralizing for town to mislynch and have a vig shoot correctly. I haven't formed an opinion on Corrupt, but your statement makes absolutely no sense, we should always lynch the number one scum read.
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My post initially actually said I would be choosing between VE/Hier/Jackal but I was wrong about him in lotr on day 1 so I decided against it.
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Okay so here it is:
Syllogism: Unless he found a new love for being mafia exactly this game, I'm pretty surre he is town. He could have opted to post waaaay less day1 and still I wouldn't suspect him, because that's usually how he operates. Instead he is getting this thread moving, posting a shitton and generating discussion.
Radfield: Pretty active, but for him that doesn't mean as much. Leaning town on him for now, only because his posts are not as carefully constructed as when he is mafia.
Palmar: Kinda inactive day 1, but I can't really say shit about that, since I was inactive myself. It's worth keeping an eye on him, since I'm having a bad feeling about his posts (pretty much reharsh of previous games posts), but still a retarded choice for a lynch day1.
These guys shouldn't even be discussed for a lynch day1, since they have a high chance of being shot night 1 when town.
Now into the people I actually find suspicious and would like input on from everyone in the thread:
Zephird: He is talking nonsense in pretty much every post he makes in the beggining and then jumps on the corrupt dude who seems to be the most inexperienced player in this game. Compare that to his play in the last game where he was town, where his logic was pretty decent and I got a town read on him pretty much right of the bat.
vaderseven: This guy gave me the impression that he is pretty good at this game in xlvii. His case on radfield is based on logical falacies and plain out wrong information. When people point this out he dismisses it and jump on the easy mode corrupt bandwagon. That note thing seems fabricated as fuck, given the way it's written and the amount of false information it contains. The fact that he unvoted radfield after people pointed out several flaws in his case isn't a scum trait by itself, but him jumping on corrupt the second after while admiting he could easily be a bad townie aswell is the patern we can identify as him not actually worried about looking for people that actually have scum motives behind their posts.
Now comenting on people that others were suspicious off:
VE: While I don't agree with his logic, I find him very open and transparent in his posts. Contrary to the previous guys I mentioned I don't get the vibe that he is trying to hide in his posts.
Hier: Don't know how good this guy is but his attack on syllo was pretty ridiculous. Don't think that makes him auto-mafia though, I need to see more from him before I decide.
prpl: I see nothing in his posts that point toward being mafia so far. That "blue claim" you guys are freaking over about doesn't even seem like a blue claim to me lol. Seriously.
Jackal: I went over his day1 on xlvii and found his tone to be pretty simillar. Dunno what to make of him yet.
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On December 05 2011 21:23 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
meh palmar you're ok for now
can't get over corrupt saying "so many suspicious people" and then only being able to list 1 and then ignoring my pushing of the issue.
##Vote Corrupt
Already wrote about that post in the previous page. I'm curious why you keep making a big deal out of it.
I answered both of your questions and you claim I ignored you? I listed 2 people, not 1.
You convinced Zephirdd to vote against me based on.. let's say.. nothing.
Now all of a sudden you suspend your case on Palmar, unvote and go for me? Sounds like a plan.
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Ok because of you guys saying there's so much useless people I just looked into people I thought might be useless and found truthbringer to be strange
On December 05 2011 01:57 TruthBringer wrote:
@prplhz
We don't have to do anything on the first day. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.
I admit that we have more data if we hang someone, because we can see that person's alignment and who voted for him and who voted elsewhere. But more data doesn't mean we are in a better position. If we hang a powerful blue, and the mafia isn't overrepresented in the vote to lynch him, that does us no good.
You seem to think that I can pick out scum just based on bad ideas, but some people are just not good players or come up with bad plans, how am I to know the difference? Like I said, I don't have the experience right now to make the distinction.
Also, there can be differences of opinion. You and I might both be good guys and honestly have different opinions on whether it is a good idea or bad idea to hang on the first day.
On December 05 2011 12:36 TruthBringer wrote:
Okay, prplhz "voted" for me in this thread. He never voted for me in the voting thread even though I reminded him to in this thread. (See page 9).
The way I see it is this . . . he leaves less evidence behind if he doesn't vote for me in the actual voting thread. The voting thread will end up being fairly short, easy to read through. Whereas this thread is already becoming a bear.
He was hoping to start a tidal wave against me and it didn't work out, and so he never actually voted for me in the voting thread. He doesn't want to come off as a frequent vote changer, etc. I think it is pretty scummy that he would so quickly vote for me in this thread, but not follow-up on it in the voting thread even after I reminded him to.
First of all, that's basicly everything he said so far.
Now on to what he said. Quote1:
He said that not doing a thing might be a good idea. Read: While people like radfield ar saying something along the lines "guys, a no-lynch is not the end of the world" TruthBringer looks like he wants us to chill and do nothing. Maybe Radfield is right, maybe a nolynch is not the worst thing that could happen to town but I sure as hell don't want it to happen, neither do I want an atmosphere of "let's just chill we don't have to do something right now".
More data is not always good? Well yeah if someone is bombing the thread and 3 pages in a row would be only posts from one guy, that probably would not help at all, but other than that I'd actually like to have a lot of data for several reasons.
First of all a lot of data means our reads are better because there's always strange things. As he said, some people are maybe new, some may just have another opionion about some topic, that doesen't necessarily mean they're scum. If I find someone saying something that is wrong in my opinion I'll call him out. If I find someone who is doing illogical stuff several times that's bad, if I find someone who's doing illogical stuff all the time I want him to hang. So more information gives us a better read because it tells me if that guy is consistent, no matter in which direction. If I get less posts from someone that means that both my reads could be wrong because makeing a single good or bad call isn't something special at all.
Also More data means more talk. If you tell people we don't need to talk mafia is not talking at all which means you're denieing them the chance to make mistakes.
Paragraph2.5 He's scared to hang a blue. Why is that? Sure I don't want to hang a blue but I guess those people can defend themselves if we're fosing them. Why even mentioning blues in the first place? It's not like we're less likely to lynch a blue because you said that.
His 3rd paragraph is kind of a nulltell. I mean that's basicly what mafia is about, figureing out if people did a mistake because they thought they're right or if they did it on purpose.
4th paragraph is another nulltell.
On to the second quote:
The quote itself is not strange. However he is contradicting everything he said in quote 1 here.
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EBWOP: Forgot to add my vote.
##Vote Truthbringer
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 21:42 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 21:32 Radfield wrote:On December 05 2011 21:23 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
meh palmar you're ok for now
can't get over corrupt saying "so many suspicious people" and then only being able to list 1 and then ignoring my pushing of the issue.
##Vote Corrupt I agree there is something slightly off about Corrupt, but I think that makes him an excellent target for a vig or hatter, NOT an excellent Day 1 lynch. What do you think? + Show Spoiler +I'm not against the pressure though Why? It's far more demoralizing for town to mislynch and have a vig shoot correctly. I haven't formed an opinion on Corrupt, but your statement makes absolutely no sense, we should always lynch the number one scum read.
The idea is to avoid voting or allowing people to vote for players with very little reasoning. Voting for someone who has barely posted at all tells us nothing about the voter. I want people to have reasons and explanation with their votes.
Lets face the facts, anyone can waltz in right now and say "Corrupt looks super scummy, vote corrupt". Mafia, Town, anyone. If corrupt flips town, we get very little info because there was so little to go on in the first place.
I don't like voting lurkers or players who have posted very little. I think that is a waste of our day 1 lynch. I like voting for players who are just outside that category(slightly more activity), or players being active but saying little. We need to play the long term game here, no just try for an easy lynch.
Also, mislynching Day 1 should NOT be demoralizing. It's day 1, mislynches happen. I go into every day 1 assuming we will mislynch, it's just too easy for mafia to redirect. However, we can still get a huge amount of info if we lynch properly(ie, don't lynch easy targets).
We want to force mafia to have an opinion. Voting for a player like corrupt hardly takes an opinion at all.
Makes sense? More to say, but I'll be gone for a while.
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Please comment on zephird and vaderseven.
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I agree on vaderseven and while I didn't like Zephirdd's posts, I ignored them based on something he said. Shouldn't really elaborate and I'm not so sure about that anymore.
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I know what you are saying but since Incog is the host I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean shit. Anyway I'm more confident on vaderseven.
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Vaderseven do you have any other notes? Can you copy/paste them. You seemed to have computer issues early on so when did you start taking notes?
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On December 05 2011 21:46 sandroba wrote:
Okay so here it is:
Syllogism: Unless he found a new love for being mafia exactly this game, I'm pretty surre he is town. He could have opted to post waaaay less day1 and still I wouldn't suspect him, because that's usually how he operates. Instead he is getting this thread moving, posting a shitton and generating discussion.
So do you think it's superior to be passive as scum compared to actively organising the discussion?
I don't like your logic right there - I grant you that this assumption is widely spread among us TL-players - but it's wrong.
WBG for example is extremely active as scum and because of that a very good scumplayer. Syllo is smart enough to try a new style as scum.
On December 05 2011 21:46 sandroba wrote:
Jackal: I went over his day1 on xlvii and found his tone to be pretty simillar. Dunno what to make of him yet.
agree.
On December 05 2011 21:53 Toadesstern wrote:Ok because of you guys saying there's so much useless people I just looked into people I thought might be useless and found truthbringer to be strange + Show Spoiler +On December 05 2011 01:57 TruthBringer wrote:
@prplhz
We don't have to do anything on the first day. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.
I admit that we have more data if we hang someone, because we can see that person's alignment and who voted for him and who voted elsewhere. But more data doesn't mean we are in a better position. If we hang a powerful blue, and the mafia isn't overrepresented in the vote to lynch him, that does us no good.
You seem to think that I can pick out scum just based on bad ideas, but some people are just not good players or come up with bad plans, how am I to know the difference? Like I said, I don't have the experience right now to make the distinction.
Also, there can be differences of opinion. You and I might both be good guys and honestly have different opinions on whether it is a good idea or bad idea to hang on the first day. On December 05 2011 12:36 TruthBringer wrote:
Okay, prplhz "voted" for me in this thread. He never voted for me in the voting thread even though I reminded him to in this thread. (See page 9).
The way I see it is this . . . he leaves less evidence behind if he doesn't vote for me in the actual voting thread. The voting thread will end up being fairly short, easy to read through. Whereas this thread is already becoming a bear.
He was hoping to start a tidal wave against me and it didn't work out, and so he never actually voted for me in the voting thread. He doesn't want to come off as a frequent vote changer, etc. I think it is pretty scummy that he would so quickly vote for me in this thread, but not follow-up on it in the voting thread even after I reminded him to. He said that not doing a thing might be a good idea. Read: While people like radfield ar saying something along the lines "guys, a no-lynch is not the end of the world" TruthBringer looks like he wants us to chill and do nothing. Maybe Radfield is right, maybe a nolynch is not the worst thing that could happen to town but I sure as hell don't want it to happen, neither do I want an atmosphere of "let's just chill we don't have to do something right now". More data is not always good? Well yeah if someone is bombing the thread and 3 pages in a row would be only posts from one guy, that probably would not help at all, but other than that I'd actually like to have a lot of data for several reasons. First of all a lot of data means our reads are better because there's always strange things. As he said, some people are maybe new, some may just have another opionion about some topic, that doesen't necessarily mean they're scum. If I find someone saying something that is wrong in my opinion I'll call him out. If I find someone who is doing illogical stuff several times that's bad, if I find someone who's doing illogical stuff all the time I want him to hang. So more information gives us a better read because it tells me if that guy is consistent, no matter in which direction. If I get less posts from someone that means that both my reads could be wrong because makeing a single good or bad call isn't something special at all. Also More data means more talk. If you tell people we don't need to talk mafia is not talking at all which means you're denieing them the chance to make mistakes. Paragraph2.5 He's scared to hang a blue. Why is that? Sure I don't want to hang a blue but I guess those people can defend themselves if we're fosing them. Why even mentioning blues in the first place? It's not like we're less likely to lynch a blue because you said that. His 3rd paragraph is kind of a nulltell. I mean that's basicly what mafia is about, figureing out if people did a mistake because they thought they're right or if they did it on purpose. 4th paragraph is another nulltell. On to the second quote:The quote itself is not strange. However he is contradicting everything he said in quote 1 here.
That post is completely empty. All you prove is that Truthbringer is a newbie. We already know that.
That's a horrible reasoning for voting someone!!!
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toadesstern! Your damn posts are huge! I just wanted to read through your filter because I realized that you had your vote on Palmar before and I wanted to take a closer look, but I didn't expect these walls of text!
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@supersoft How does wbg being active as scum has any relevance on how syllo normally plays? I know that he hates being mafia and he prob wouldn't put in this much effort as scum. Of course there is the possibility that he suddenly decided to try a ultra active scum style despite not liking being scum, but that is extremelly more unlikely compared to the easiest explanation. It doesn't matter what I think it's optimal if I think syllo wouldn't play optimally as scum. You have to make assumptions and roll with them until new evidence tells you otherwise.
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Just backing up my homeboy sandroba.
Syllo is certainly capable of playing strong scum if he put his mind to it, but well... he has a terrible scum meta anyway. If he's ever wrong as town we just kill him. Sucks to have a meta of being always right.
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Refallen: Why did you emphasize before and after the game started that you are new? Do you think it's important for us to know that we can't expect much from you yet?
Hi syllo, missed this part earlier till I reread the thread, yes, I just thought it would be nice to say that I was new
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okay okay, I don't want to roll out the syllotopic unnecessary. I don't disagree with you on him, I just wanted to point that out. I expect him to be rather town than scum based on the content of his post and not on the number.
what do you think about toadesstern? - I got to filter Zephirdd and vaderseven. until i did that I'd like to hear your opinions on him.
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EPT
