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On December 14 2011 06:52 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:26 xtfftc wrote:
I'm going to bed, so I'm voting for Bbyte. It's not ideal but it's better than some unpleasant last minute surprise.
##Unvote: xsksc
##Vote: BByte
I'm frankly not sure what has been brought up/not brought up re:xtfftc at this point but I do have a question about this vote. Wouldn't a last minute surprise be a good thing for the town in many cases? A last minute switch screams mafia. Just wondering on your logic.
It depends. On Day 2 we had just one case and very limited discussion, so a switch that leads to a townie lynch would have been blatantly obvious. On Day 1 we had a few cases, so a switch could have been masked much better.
As for bigger games, last minute switches almost always benefit mafia because there's more people voting and it's hard to distinguish between the lurking mafia and newbie townies.
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On December 14 2011 23:22 ey215 wrote:
Question for xtfftc:
Do you still believe I am mafia and if so/not what has changed about your opinion over the last couple of days?
I still do. You've hardly given any opinions since I stopped tunneling you
(with the only real contribution being you mostly disagreeing/somewhat agreeing with layabout's initial posts on me and Tunkeg, but this is not enough - and it would be wise for the two of you to disagree in the thread anyway)
, so the only way I could change my opinion is if someone else acts in such a scummy fashion that leaves no doubt.
Let's go quickly through the list of possibilities:
BH - town. We all agree, I think.
Tunkeg - town. He hasn't contributed a lot but it's enough for a good read. I'm sure that if he was mafia, we would have found reasons to put him under more pressure.
Velinath - as much as I hate to say it, town. I would love to call him mafia but it makes no sense. Him tunneling on me so ferociously while committing many factual mistakes fits his play: he focuses on just one player (first it was BKE and now it's me) and he builds up his case as he goes, so he gets things wrong. Studying for his finals has had impact on his analysis as well. And even from a purely theoretical perspective... why would mafia need him to go after me like this when he wasn't a main target? Bussing layabout would have made much more sense than going all out after me.
Bluelightz - the only player I can imagine being mafia if you flip town. But he's a lurker, and lurkers simply ruin the game because they are always a gamble.
Remember Day 1 and me arguing against everyone about policies in general and Lynch All Lurkers in particular? How I kept saying that it sounds good in theory but in reality it doesn't work? We lynched Bbyte based on the policy but this didn't scare the others into contributing. Bluelightz is the latest example and we can't do much about it. If he doesn't care the post, he doesn't care if he gets lynched as well. So he's putting the town into a very shitty situation. If he's town, he's way too lazy - and if he's mafia, he's playing way too dirty. I have no ideas but hoping for a DT to check him - but we don't even know if we have a DT and whether he'd be able to do it before he dies. So it just sucks.
I must say that I feel that the questions you've been asking as of late have been very pro-town. Although this is also good mafia play (asking good questions and appearing to contribute without puting yourself out there as much), it helps town. If you're really not mafia, you should back it up with more analysis because the game is almost over, one way or another.
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On December 15 2011 03:51 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:41 xtfftc wrote:On December 14 2011 06:52 ey215 wrote:On December 06 2011 07:26 xtfftc wrote:
I'm going to bed, so I'm voting for Bbyte. It's not ideal but it's better than some unpleasant last minute surprise.
##Unvote: xsksc
##Vote: BByte
I'm frankly not sure what has been brought up/not brought up re:xtfftc at this point but I do have a question about this vote. Wouldn't a last minute surprise be a good thing for the town in many cases? A last minute switch screams mafia. Just wondering on your logic. It depends. On Day 2 we had just one case and very limited discussion, so a switch that leads to a townie lynch would have been blatantly obvious. On Day 1 we had a few cases, so a switch could have been masked much better. As for bigger games, last minute switches almost always benefit mafia because there's more people voting and it's hard to distinguish between the lurking mafia and newbie townies. so did day 1 or day 2 have better cases?
Day 2 had better cases but Day 1 had better discussion.
Who is your third mafia read in case I'm red?
And if I flip green, who would be the second one?
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On December 15 2011 04:22 Velinath wrote:Show nested quote +That's cheap, really cheap. In this post you replied to my explanation as to how "more likely" does not equal "best read" with the words "i see in your quotes: "three scummiest" "more likely to be scum" "his team (...) more likely"this implies that you sure as hell think he's scum." You did not bother to disagree with what layabout said and you've been supporting him all day long, so excuse me for not remembering that you never used these exact words.
And once again, this is a double standard: layabout twisting my words into "best read" and refusing to admit he had no right to is perfectly acceptable but me losing track of all your accusations deserves a response such as "cute, but come on, try harder than that".
Because I definitely also twisted your words into "best read". That makes sense. Okay. So I'm supposed to feel ashamed because you're accusing me of saying something I didn't? You're breaking my brain now. I also never addressed the issue with what layabout said. I never took into account the words "best read". Stop insinuating that I did. If you're going to whine about getting your words twisted by someone else, don't twist mine.
You never did, this was the point of my criticism when I wrote "you did not bother to disagree with what layabout said".
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On December 15 2011 04:26 ey215 wrote:
Actually, now that I've been thinking about it on BH, while I think we all agree he's town has anyone else found him to be less engaging since say the middle of day 3? Like he's almost stepped back a bit. I'm not sure why the change or if I'm just imagining it.
He has. I think he may have decided to keep a lower profile because he felt that it's not good for town to sheep after him. The previous two days he put his vote on someone very early and this person got turbolynched, which discouraged discussion about others.
Or maybe he's just busy or tired of the game or he's too busy laughing at our stupidity in the mafia QT or whatever ^^
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I'm almost done for tonight. All I'd like to say before I go offline is that the vote tonight is the most important part of the whole game, so you should make your decisions carefully.
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On December 15 2011 18:40 Blazinghand wrote:
Well, there's the QT. I guess that means you're definitely Mafia.
I can drop the act, then.
I am The Doctor.
I was the one who kept me alive, by "asking" the doctor to keep me alive. After I became a mafia target I needed to lie to stay alive, and as a Blue, I am allowed to lie.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I decided not to kill you way before you asked for Doctor protection ^^ And I RB-ed you until Veli revealed himself because I had no blue reads whatsoever.
Will post more over the weekend, won't have the time for a proper post-game rant at the moment.
For the record, BL should be warned for lukring and banned for claiming imo.
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I will post more on having a veteran later but I just want to clarify that I did not think that Palmar was trolling and didn't feel frustrated about his play or anything. I simply felt that with him not providing a case on me, I had the opportunity to lash back (I did it poorly but that's another issue). BH and the others jumping on him earlier for refusing to vote also helped. I was really scared that someone might revisit Palmar's case on Hassy and considering Jay's flip, I was very much likely to be turbolynched based purely on Palmar's early read.
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On December 15 2011 20:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:20 Palmar wrote:
Can you guys please answer these questions:
Did you like having a veteran in the newbie game?
Would you prefer the veteran did not smurf?
Would you prefer giving both factions a veteran?
A) Yes! It was fun. 2] Smurfing is important imo so the town can develop its own personality without relying on the vet. Ideally the vet should play as you did: be a good townie, do his thing, get killed off first night. III. I think a scum vet might have helped this game, but it's unclear. I feel like in newb games it's scum-favored, so maybe a single town vet who dies off quickly is ideal.
The reason Palmar died was because he was a smurf though. If you check the mafia QT, you'll see that I wanted to kill him first about ten hours into the game, way before he posted on Hassy, Jay, and me. In order for the veteran to die early, it has to be obvious that he's a veteran, and thus it would be very easy for the doctor/tracker to prevent his death/gain info out of it.
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[QUOTE]On December 15 2011 21:22 Velinath wrote:
3) Not in a coached game. I feel that having a veteran to help the town out in early play especially balances out the "informed minority" in what might be a more difficult (for town) game. /QUOTE]
And so the veteran becomes immune to lynch, thus for the game to be balanced he has to dumb down his play and thus the very point of having a veteran to serve as an example is lost.
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On December 15 2011 21:29 Blazinghand wrote:
I actually really appreciated the mods getting replacements rather than modkilling players, as well. That was good.
Yeah, some modkills could have ruined the game (although we were unlucky because town got layabout who posted some great analysis - Palmar's case on Hassy was the only bit that was any better - and mafia got Bluelightz who didn't do much but lurk)
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On December 16 2011 03:28 Grackaroni wrote:
I figured there was no way that Blue could be scum because mafia would help him post better than that.
If the mafia plays as a team, yes. In this game we hardly had a team. Jay didn't listen and was doing his own thing but at least he tried playing, so it's okay. But Blue was lurking and would then come to the QT and say things such as "xtf don't jump on the EY bandwagon" when I was the person who started it in the first place...
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On December 16 2011 03:55 Grackaroni wrote:
I didn't believe that you were a cop though so I jumped to the conclusion that you were scum.
This was the post that really threw me off.
"As a side note, I have some good news! Our blues are probably Doctor + DT/Watch, because there's no other reason I'd get roleblocked last night. They think I'm DT/Watcher, and as long as they keep roleblocking me our blues are free to do what they want (since they'll probably think I'm bluffing to get them to stop roleblocking me). "
This doesn't really make you look less like a cop, you're practically screaming to scum that you didn't want to be roleblocked.
(if you wanted to attract scum to roleblock you, you didn't have to say anything because they already believed you were a cop.)
It made me think that you wanted people to believe you were a cop, which in a way I guess was accurate.
For what it's worth, I didn't particularly care about whether BH was blue or not. He had a good effect on the town's play overall but I didn't feel like killing him on Night 2 or 3 would have changed that much, so I opted to go for others. Killing him on Night 1 would have been better but EB was the priority and there was no way I was going for anyone else.
P.S. I just checked the times of posting and I realised that I wanted to lynch him after his first post in the game (this one).
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On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
This game was a good example of what happens when townies do what they're supposed to do. Standard scum play on TL is terrible, and it's because really no one knows what to do as scum. However, scum often still win (as in the last newbie game and in every normal game I've ever played in) by doing nothing because towns are worse.
While town did well, you seem to forget that me and Jay were pretty active. It wasn't particularly good but we weren't doing the standard lurking play lazy maifa goes for, which made it much easier for town than half-lurking would have done.
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For those who missed it: Palmar soft-claimed smurf very early into the game:
If he is scum, he's the first scum I've ever seen actually trying to push the town away from lynching lurkers on day 1.
Also, considering that the post I quoted was on Veli who was town, I think that I get to be the first scum Palmar's ever seen actually trying to push the town away from lynching lurkers on day 1™.
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On December 16 2011 09:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:05 xtfftc wrote:On December 16 2011 03:28 Grackaroni wrote:
I figured there was no way that Blue could be scum because mafia would help him post better than that. If the mafia plays as a team, yes. In this game we hardly had a team. Jay didn't listen and was doing his own thing but at least he tried playing, so it's okay. But Blue was lurking and then saying things such as "xtf don't jump on the EY bandwagon" when I was the person who started it in the first place... I think it was somewhat unlucky for mafia team that Hassybaby went afk, then Bluelightz also went afk... and came back to play sub-optimally. It's really tough to sub in for another player especially for someone new who maybe wasn't entirely sure what was going on in the thread (Layabout can tell you how hard it is to pick up two batons at once, since sandshard ended up going afk as well-- I think he deserves some real credit for contributing to the town despite being thrown into the deep end rather harshly). Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:07 xtfftc wrote:On December 16 2011 03:55 Grackaroni wrote:
I didn't believe that you were a cop though so I jumped to the conclusion that you were scum.
This was the post that really threw me off.
"As a side note, I have some good news! Our blues are probably Doctor + DT/Watch, because there's no other reason I'd get roleblocked last night. They think I'm DT/Watcher, and as long as they keep roleblocking me our blues are free to do what they want (since they'll probably think I'm bluffing to get them to stop roleblocking me). "
This doesn't really make you look less like a cop, you're practically screaming to scum that you didn't want to be roleblocked.
(if you wanted to attract scum to roleblock you, you didn't have to say anything because they already believed you were a cop.)
It made me think that you wanted people to believe you were a cop, which in a way I guess was accurate. For what it's worth, I didn't particularly care about whether BH was blue or not. He had a good effect on the town's play overall but I didn't feel like killing him on Night 2 or 3 would have changed that much, so I opted to go for others. Killing him on Night 1 would have been better but EB was the priority and there was no way I was going for anyone else. Well, you did spend a couple roleblocks on me which let Veli find you 
I wouldn't call roleblocking the doctor a waste. But it was pure luck, I had no blue reads and just went with you in case you were DT.
And layabout did great, without him Veli's night check on me could have easily been inconsequential.
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On December 16 2011 09:24 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I agree with BC that scum should've had a vet if town got a vet. The drawback is that only two players learn to play scum, but that's not a huge problem IMO, particularly when you have one or maybe even two vets on the town side.
In order for this to be feasible I think perhaps the next newbie or newbie-ish game should have 16 players. Activity is up recently and there were even a lot of new players in the normal game. Personally, I don't actually like newbie games, since I think normals are just better for new players, but they're certainly more popular recently, so they should definitely continue IMO.
The only hurdle I can see with giving both sides a vet is that the town vet is very likely to be shot on night 1. Now, the game has only the scum vet in it until the town gets its shit together and eventually hangs him (which will probably be last of all the scums, as hes the least likely to be caught saying or doing something stupid).
Town vet dies > instalynch of the other vet since he's obviously mafia.
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On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk.
Just having him in the game meant that he had to die night 1. So we couldn't pick a lynch that would accomodate our strategy - we had to kill him no matter what.
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I did not assert that being active ensures quality posting. To the contrary, I made it clear that our play was not of high quality (hence the "it wasn't particularly good"). But you say that mafia tends to win by doing nothing and relies on town to kill themselves, and this game was nothing like this.
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EPT
