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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 11:52 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 11:47 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 11:33 Grackaroni wrote:On December 05 2011 11:30 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 11:28 Grackaroni wrote:
He seems like an emotional and useless townie to me.
We still have some time before the lynch, I'm going to wait for more posts from both Adam/EB before I'm sure about my vote but for now I'm going to leave it on Adam Unfortunately, there's not much more to be said about EB due to his low post count, but after dinner I'll do some analysis on Adam's posting so far, since I DID vote for him initially. Yeah that's why it's such a hard decision between them. Right now I feel like Adam is more likely to flip scum and that EB will flip shitty townie. It's possible EB is a fool and not a knave; but if he is a fool he's enough of one to appear a knave, and flagrantly so. It seems like a pretty stupid strategy for a scum player to behave like he did. His attitude alone makes people want to vote for him. That said If Adam makes some solid analysis I will switch my vote.
That's a fair point; it's on Adam to exonerate himself. That being said, watch out for arguments like "there's no way he's mafia because if he is, he's pretty stupid"... because that's a circular argument and can lead to weird places. Remember, our initial read here is that whether this guy is town OR scum, he's bad either way, right? I'm not sure it's inherently less believable that he's bad scum than that he's bad town, except of course that there are more town than scum players.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 11:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 11:52 Grackaroni wrote:On December 05 2011 11:47 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 11:33 Grackaroni wrote:On December 05 2011 11:30 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 11:28 Grackaroni wrote:
He seems like an emotional and useless townie to me.
We still have some time before the lynch, I'm going to wait for more posts from both Adam/EB before I'm sure about my vote but for now I'm going to leave it on Adam Unfortunately, there's not much more to be said about EB due to his low post count, but after dinner I'll do some analysis on Adam's posting so far, since I DID vote for him initially. Yeah that's why it's such a hard decision between them. Right now I feel like Adam is more likely to flip scum and that EB will flip shitty townie. It's possible EB is a fool and not a knave; but if he is a fool he's enough of one to appear a knave, and flagrantly so. It seems like a pretty stupid strategy for a scum player to behave like he did. His attitude alone makes people want to vote for him. That said If Adam makes some solid analysis I will switch my vote. That's a fair point; it's on Adam to exonerate himself. That being said, watch out for arguments like "there's no way he's mafia because if he is, he's pretty stupid"... because that's a circular argument and can lead to weird places. Remember, our initial read here is that whether this guy is town OR scum, he's bad either way, right? I'm not sure it's inherently less believable that he's bad scum than that he's bad town, except of course that there are more town than scum players.
tl;dr: it's just as dumb for a town player to behave as he did as a scum player, so I'm not sure that argument fully applies. Still waiting on adam.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Oh yes, definitely-- people make mistakes. Hell, I've made plenty of mistakes. It's my first time as well. I'll do my best to bear this in mind going forwards. However, for now, I think I'll keep my vote on EB. He's giving the strongest scum read atm. If the situation changes, so too will my vote.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Good morning!
@EB: I'd like to apologize for my aggressive play towards you. I will not apologize for voting you when you specifically said you were trying to spite the town. That being said, you have come forwards with some good reasons, and I don't think you'd be a good lynch for today any more.
We have 8 hours left before lynch time.
Talk to your coaches. Have the help you with your reads and strategy. There isn't much time left. Look through filters and make a decision.
Lastly, when we vote, try not to bandwagon per se, but the winner should win with a fair number of the votes, or the mafia will have an undue influence on the outcome.
I'm currently doing analysis. I don't yet know who to vote for, but as soon as I know, I'll vote and write why. This should take probably 20-30 minutes.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 02:46 xsksc wrote:
xtfftc and blazing, I'd like your thoughts on Tunkeg if you have a chance soon, thanks.
Tunkeg may be scum. But I think he's just a townie who was looking to pick at fight with xskxc
Tunkeg Norway. December 05 2011 00:02. Posts 42
xsksc Scum. If I had to pick three scums right now xsksc would be my third pick, I'd say more based on a hunch and not so much reasoning. It is his way of gaining trust, while not really providing any pressure to anyone or other pro town activities.
This means he thinks xskxc is third-most-likely to be scum, behind HB and JB in his post. When xskxc becomes more aggressive the next day, Tunkeg gets into a protracted and unhelpful fight with him.
1. It is his change in attitude that bothers me. He isn't posting in the same matter as yesterday. I get scum vibes from it.
2. He was going for the easy targets at the time, and only them. He mentioned me suspicious, and not at all going for me. Just a slight discrediting move. In a "Look out this guy is suspicious, don't listen to much to what he says"- kind of way.
3. This part is where I think I am most understood, I mean I am not contradicting myself. Can't a player both be educatiing others and scum? In this post I wrote abit about why I dont think I am contradicting my self:
Overall it does seem that xskxc has become more aggressive, but sticking your neck out isn't a scum move. Also, xskxc hasn't been bandwagoning, and has been generally getting all up in people's business. Dangerous move for a mafia guy.
xsksc, don't vote Tunkeg just because he's a moron. from your point of view, just because he's wrong about you doesn't make him scum.
Alright guys, So, I have a couple of minor scum reads: Adam4167, BKEXE, and JB. These are all very mild-- I'm not sure enough to cast votes at this moment on these guys, but if it came down to it, I'd vote for one of them.
However, I want to invoke Lynch All Lurkers on BByte. He is lurking and acting scummy.
Bbyte has made literally no major contributions. He briefly talked about policy, then asked a few random questions, voted Velinath
On December 05 2011 09:20 BByte wrote:My strongest scum read so far is Velinath. He has been active (very much so actually), but what has he contributed? Some policy discussion, a bit of finger pointing (mostly to spark activity), some fluff. Mostly he has been following other people's ideas, not making his own calls. All of this is something scum could easily do with very little risk. Then there are a couple of posts of light analysis. His "reads post" sums it up best: + Show Spoiler +On December 05 2011 03:29 Velinath wrote:Whee, time to copy in my reads. Keeping a spreadsheet is going to be quite helpful, I think. Blazinghand: Feels very Townie to me. Posting reasonable content and post analysis already. Willing to take actions on his stances. Softclaimed Vanilla Townie http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067¤tpage=8#152 Bringing lurkers out, which can ONLY help town. I approve. Call it 90% town. Also, his discussion with ey215 looked good, and convinced me further of his townieness. BroodKingEXE: Empty post. Worries me.Feels scummy but could be a noob. Amend: Six posts that don't sit right with me, but again, could be new player. xkskc: Leaning town for now. Started our policy discussion. Discussion is good. While he disagrees with BH's methods, I clearly feel like he's playing a townie game right now. Different methodolgy, same goal. To note, he pointed out that there may be mafia in the group leadership., which should be something to keep in mind. Question is whether it's sowing suspicion or genuine pro-town, and I haven't figured that out yet. xtfftc: Null read. He argued against LAL and LALurkers, and I don't wanna go with that. Let's look again once he posts again. (Amend: Looked through his filter to update this post, and I really liked his post here. Still a null read, but this feels positive to me.) ey215: Pointed out some good things. He sees Blazinghand's methods as creating tension within the town, and that's fine - he's entitled to opinion. Like xkskc, he disagrees with methods but seems to be working towards the same goal. Their discussion, while heated, really brought out to me that they both seem very town-aligned, and willing to take positions and defend them. EB: Makes good points. At this point I'm leaning town, simply because he's pro-discussion this early. That said I'd love to see more posts here. Tunkeg: Posted his reads, and is encouraging discussion. I think this is a good thing, and might peg him as one of the influential voices in the town soon. Largely a null read, but I'm starting to lean town. BByte: I'm not totally impressed yet. One post about breadcrumbs (which is more about the game in general than a content post) and one post about a couple of the players. That post was good, and I agree that we shouldn't be intimidated by one person, but I'd like to see more. jaybrundage: Neutral for now, but a lack of content disturbs me. We've still got like 30 hours though. Adam4167: Two posts, neither of which hugely impress me. I liked how he went through and stated a clear opinion on BH's play. While I disagree with his opinion, I think that the way he put things is pro-town in that post. I'd love to see more content here, but so far looks pretty good. Hassybaby: Disagrees with early targets, and I can see why. I think he is overly defensive towards Tunkeg - not an OMGUS vote, but definitely that kind of idea. Not sure what to think, but this early just a null read. Grackaroni: Posted reads, but before that there's a bunch of policy posts. Not that I haven't made a ton of policy posts too, but I'll wait for more content. Null read. How does half town, half null reads with a couple of unsures thrown in help the town in any way? Even those unsure reads are off people who have been previously called out by others. Everything seems very non-committal. #Vote Velinath
and hasn't been seen in some time. He did drop in recently to make this post:
On December 05 2011 15:33 BByte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:24 Velinath wrote:
Why should I be lynched? What don't you like about the EB or Adam4167 cases, if anything? He said he'd post thoughts on the lynch discussion but I haven't heard anything yet (maybe a time zone thing, but we've talked a lot since his last post and he's been silent). Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:48 jaybrundage wrote:
Also i would like your input on the other cases Bbyte and why they dont appeal to you as much
The cases on Adam4167 and ElectricBlack look good now. However, both of them have promised to post their analysis and I'd expect that to change the situation. ElectricBlack's reaction seemed a bit rash but not necessarily scummy to me.
As you can see, he's got a vote on velinath, and hasn't made a serious argument. Velinath's arguments on his scumlist might have been vague, but since then, velinath has made a liberal outpouring of posts and BByte remains silent. I don't know who's mafia, but I know we need more commitment than that out of our townies, and BByte's soft case and small vote count make it seem like he's hiding something.
##Vote BByte
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
There's 6 hours left; the time to be active has come and gone. BByte has my vote because I want to lynch him.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
It's fine to vote for a different target than me. I'd rather make a scum lynch than a policy lynch, and I think most people would. Although I'm not convinced, try to convince others and see if we can't get some good discussion going in these final hours.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
5 hours, 30 minutes remaining. I'm grabbing lunch.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 07:28 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:On December 06 2011 07:11 jaybrundage wrote:ey are you planning on voting for hassybaby. So far bbyte is gonna get lynched regardless unless we have a change.I would still like to see his defense. But so far it doesnt look good. But honestly last minute switches always put me at unease. I still plan to stick to adam i would like to see what he has to say about whats going on so far. And EB if you think adam is not a good candidate plz state why this post. On December 06 2011 05:45 ElectricBlack wrote:
reconsider that, he's the worst candidate. Isn't going to change anything. Put in some content i would like to see more of your thoughts. But besides Hassybaby's case which was actually pretty good. And you arguing with xsksc which granted showed that you can post very well when you want too. Why give me this one liner it's not gonna change anything I voted for BByte on the lurker/not contributing line of reasoning. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to use it, but if someone's inactive even if town they're not really doing us any good. ..................................... Town doesn't lynch people for being bad. Town lynches people for being mafia. It's not like we get free lynches for the useless and the lurkers; it's the mafia who managed to distract town well enough and they're getting a free kill tonight as a reward.
That's a fair point. On the other hand, BByte is so silent there's no way we'd ever know he's Mafia. He's not like an "omg I went afk for several days" lurker, he's a "I make like 3-4 no-content posts, spread out over the course of the day, and am trying to look active but really am not" lurker. I see two options here:
1) BByte is a lurking mafia guy
2) BByte is just a somewhat inneffective townie
Now, granted, (2) is a possibility. And honestly I'd rather lynch a mafia guy than a non-mafia guy. But currently, I think BByte the lurker is more likely to be mafia than any of my existing reads. If you can convince me otherwise, then I'll vote for those guys. That being said, my vote stands. I'm trying to make the best out of a no/low information situation here.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
It takes like 15 minutes for the bot to register it. Don't worry, it'll happen.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:03 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:34 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2011 07:28 xtfftc wrote:On December 06 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:On December 06 2011 07:11 jaybrundage wrote:ey are you planning on voting for hassybaby. So far bbyte is gonna get lynched regardless unless we have a change.I would still like to see his defense. But so far it doesnt look good. But honestly last minute switches always put me at unease. I still plan to stick to adam i would like to see what he has to say about whats going on so far. And EB if you think adam is not a good candidate plz state why this post. On December 06 2011 05:45 ElectricBlack wrote:
reconsider that, he's the worst candidate. Isn't going to change anything. Put in some content i would like to see more of your thoughts. But besides Hassybaby's case which was actually pretty good. And you arguing with xsksc which granted showed that you can post very well when you want too. Why give me this one liner it's not gonna change anything I voted for BByte on the lurker/not contributing line of reasoning. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to use it, but if someone's inactive even if town they're not really doing us any good. ..................................... Town doesn't lynch people for being bad. Town lynches people for being mafia. It's not like we get free lynches for the useless and the lurkers; it's the mafia who managed to distract town well enough and they're getting a free kill tonight as a reward. That's a fair point. On the other hand, BByte is so silent there's no way we'd ever know he's Mafia. He's not like an "omg I went afk for several days" lurker, he's a "I make like 3-4 no-content posts, spread out over the course of the day, and am trying to look active but really am not" lurker. I see two options here: 1) BByte is a lurking mafia guy 2) BByte is just a somewhat inneffective townie Now, granted, (2) is a possibility. And honestly I'd rather lynch a mafia guy than a non-mafia guy. But currently, I think BByte the lurker is more likely to be mafia than any of my existing reads. If you can convince me otherwise, then I'll vote for those guys. That being said, my vote stands. I'm trying to make the best out of a no/low information situation here. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:35 Velinath wrote:On December 06 2011 07:28 xtfftc wrote:On December 06 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:On December 06 2011 07:11 jaybrundage wrote:ey are you planning on voting for hassybaby. So far bbyte is gonna get lynched regardless unless we have a change.I would still like to see his defense. But so far it doesnt look good. But honestly last minute switches always put me at unease. I still plan to stick to adam i would like to see what he has to say about whats going on so far. And EB if you think adam is not a good candidate plz state why this post. On December 06 2011 05:45 ElectricBlack wrote:
reconsider that, he's the worst candidate. Isn't going to change anything. Put in some content i would like to see more of your thoughts. But besides Hassybaby's case which was actually pretty good. And you arguing with xsksc which granted showed that you can post very well when you want too. Why give me this one liner it's not gonna change anything I voted for BByte on the lurker/not contributing line of reasoning. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to use it, but if someone's inactive even if town they're not really doing us any good. ..................................... Town doesn't lynch people for being bad. Town lynches people for being mafia. It's not like we get free lynches for the useless and the lurkers; it's the mafia who managed to distract town well enough and they're getting a free kill tonight as a reward. I guess the question is whether or not you think the town can reach a clear consensus on the candidates we've been debating as scum today. If we can't - and I don't think we can - it's best to have a clear majority on a candidate to, as you said, prevent any late-night surprises. I agree, which is why I voted for Bbyte already... It's frustrating though. Even if he flips town, it'll be a lucky lynch. :/
Er, you mean, even if he flips Scum? yeah, I mean this is a kinda-policy-kinda-scumread lynch. In a better world, Bbyte would have posted a bunch and we wouldn't be lynching based on lurking.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:22 jaybrundage wrote:
BH you never gave me any answer why you think im scum please enlighten me.
I never said I think you're scum. I had you on a list of minor scum reads-- I find your action to be vaguely scummy. I didn't say I think you're scum. If I thought your were scum, I'd be coming after you with all the force in the heavens, and you would know exact;u wju-- I'm calling to lynch BByte because I don't have any solid scumreads.
That being said, asking "why do you have a vague scumread on me" is a fair question, so I'm going to assume you asked that instead.
Here's my analysis.
The case for jaybrundage being vaguely scummy
On December 04 2011 13:15 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 12:06 xsksc wrote:For those of you playing your first game, hi!  There are a couple of things you may want to know. Don't lie. As town, lying is almost never going to help, it'll probably just end up with you getting lynched. Don't be too quick to mindlessly jump on every bandwagon. Keep an open mind and vote for someone you believe there is a strong case on, or if you want to start your own case, write some good analysis on who you think is scum. Don't be a sheep. Try hard not to lurk, if townies are lurking it's a lot easier for scum to lurk with you. Just post whatever your thoughts are, let us know how you feel about X's post or Y's suspicious behavior. Let's get some discussion going! What do you guys think of policy lynches in general? Do you think they are a good idea, if so, why?Personally I disagree with lynching a lurker JUST because they're lurking, in a game like this anyway. The risk of hitting a townie is way too high. Lynch all liars is a great idea though. It discourages people from lying right from day 1, the only people with a good reason to lie are scum. Ok i think we should all agree that a lying is a bad thing. I honestly dont see a situation where it could be of use. As far as i see it, It just gives wrong information to the town. And can cause people to make bad calls based on a lie. I would be in favor of a lynch all liars policy. However i dont really think that lynching lurkers as a policy would be good. Lurkers could just be townies that dont have much to add. Or have alot on there schedule i know with my working hours it can be hard to post on a continuous basis. Also we should never lynch a lurker if we have a someone that looks scummy. Although on the other hand if we dont have any one that we think is mafia we could lynch a lurker as in general lurkers arent helpful to the town. Also Im curious tho what situation would there be that lying would even be helpful. Is it just that im still kinda new that i dont see it?
Initial post in favor of Lynch All Liars, hedging about Lynch All Lurkers. Nothing unusual here. However, stating unnecessarily that you're kind of new.
On December 04 2011 13:33 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 13:10 Velinath wrote:
Blazinghand:
Let's implement Lynch All Lurkers conditionally. If we have a case on someone else in the thread, we should use those lynches above a lurker lynch. If we have no good cases on anyone who's been actively posting, THEN lynch a lurker. Yes, lurking is anti-town, but we should be more focused on scumhunting from posts in the thread. Lynching people who are actively trying to misdirect the town should be a better option, right?
(Given that, we may want to look at lynching a lurker today, if any remain by tomorrow (that's tomorrow in real time, by the way). I doubt we'll have any strong cases built by the end of day 1.) Yea this makes perfect sense to me. If we have someone who we think is scum we should nail his ass. A lurker while not helpful to the town should be a secondary concern. So we only lynch a lurker if we dont have any good scum reads. Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 13:17 Grackaroni wrote:
If we cannot agree on a solid lynch backed up with analysis that the town can agree on, then a lurker lynch is a good option since you are not risking lynching an active townie who is actually spending the time to read and analyze the game.
Just judging from the game i replaced in with no mafia modkills and a shit load of town, I'm inclined to believe that we may have some lurking townies in this game as well.
IF THE TOWN CANNOT AGREE ON A TARGET BASED ON ANALYSIS then I would agree that we need to lynch somebody who is lurking rather than an active townie, because the lurker will always remain a null read and an easy scapegoat for scum. Yea this pretty much sums it up. We gotta be actively scum hunting. Looking thru everyones post for a slip or something we dont think is protown. Only then we should be lynching lurkers. But ideally guys, We shouldn't have any lurkers lets encourage some solid posts with content. Im not saying spam but the more posts we have the better we are off for looking for information.
Headnodding to reasonable posts. Not a contribution, but not scummy. Just sort of passive. Whether is is scummy passivity or a townie who happens to agree with other townies is a matter of context.
On December 04 2011 13:36 jaybrundage wrote:
Every time i post something there's a bunch of more posts to read lol. guess thats a good thing tho lol
Filler post. ._.
On December 04 2011 15:11 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:01 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 14:42 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 14:20 Blazinghand wrote:I want to hear what you have to say. Don't flop around like you did in your first post. Be a man. Do the right thing. On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.
As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot Hi, this also feels noncontributive. I feel like what Blazinghand was looking for was more of an opinion on one of the matters we've been discussing in the thread. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the Lynch All Lurkers policy discussed a couple of pages back. Adding questions but no answers isn't really posting content, at least not in my eyes. I'd just like to point out that Blazinghand is calling out people for giving their opinions. I guess if it's not groundbreaking then it's fluff. While I agree with you that just posting a question isn't enough, giving an opinion that agrees with others shouldn't be considered not participating. If we're going to win, the town needs to work together and discouraging newer townies to post by slapping them around when they do is probably not the right answer. Well you could say blazinghand is coming off aggressive. However honestly i think its just scum hunting. You should be aggressive and state your opinion if you think someone is scum. And remember just because someones new doesn't mean there town. You could be new and still draw mafia. I honestly am not sure how to read BKEXE hes obviously new. But is he a newbie townie or a newbie mafia. Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 13:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys!
Great to be joining. I think that when we vote we should make sure people did not mispeak.
I think that we all need to figure out what we want to do as a group.
What do you think? This was his first post and while there was alot of discussion going on in the thread he just posts this. Not even commentating on what was going on in the thread. Then talking about what we need to do as a group. When we already were talking about policy lynches. I would not straight out call him scum at this point. I just dont see him as being pro-town
Hedging on BKEXE. This is scummy because, AS JB NOTES, BKEXE is being scummy as hell straight up not contributing to the discussion in the thread and just talking generality... then says that he wouldn't call him scum, but wouldn't call him pro town either. A very heavy, very passive hedge.
On December 04 2011 15:15 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:10 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Velinath,
I said to check for inconsistent statements and you did. The fact that I said to check for mistakes in their inconsistent statements still stands though, as you point out through asking me about my inconsistent comment. I am happy to see you posting more, tho remember when ever you do post try to give your opinions and rereading the thread can prove useful.
Worthless comment.
On December 04 2011 16:02 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:57 ey215 wrote:
On that note, off to bed. I make not promises on when I'll be on tomorrow, but I will. Oh, question can someone give me an idea of what time Eastern that voting closes? I suck at time conversions. Time Converter MapThis should help you :D I got it bookmarked 
Providing a useful tool to an ally. this isn't inherently pro or anti town, but it's more posting without analysis, classic JB.
On December 05 2011 04:08 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:58 Tunkeg wrote:
jaybrundage: The dissapointment of the game this far (strong words, but I think jaybrundage can take it). He is also a veteran, and should now that posting quality stuff is important. As of now there have been alot of filler posts.
Ok you come out and call me a disappointment of the game And that i haven't been posting quality stuff. Thats Bullshit I post what im thinking about. I gave my opinion on lynching policies. I said what i thought about Blazinghands aggressiveness (which i agree with btw) And i gave my read on BKEXE. Who i think could very well be a noobie mafia. Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 00:02 Tunkeg wrote:
jaybrundage Scum. "Veteran", posts to little and with to little content, should know that thats anti-town.
For lynch I would go for either jaybrundage or Hassybaby at this point. They need to step up their game or GTFO. But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia. Seeing that i havent even posted from then to your next post. While i think posting your reads on people is good. You got the wrong person in your cross hairs. Moving on here's more stuff that i noticed Ok so far i see adam has done quite a bit of lurking. He makes a single post at the start of the game.Correcting a mistake someone made about not being able to lynch. Then after ward after someone calls him a bored townie. He jumps on it claiming him self to be a bored townie. And then talks about mentions Blazinghand and Veli so called buddy buddy relationship. Soft claiming them to be mafia. He responds to Tunkegs questions and leaves it at that. Im going to right my reads out in a little bit i just need more time to reread the thread
Others have finally caught on to the "JB has literally not contributed anything" fact. He backtracks here and says BKEXE could very well be noobie mafia. Generally being defensive, as you'd expect... and starts focusing on Adam. This could either be scum (trying to deflect attention) or town (people have asked him to analyze, so he does). This defense of scum accusations is barely adequate-- but his major post is coming.
On December 05 2011 06:25 jaybrundage wrote:My reads so far Adam4167- Ok so far i have a scum read on adam I you can see in my last post why click He just comes off happy to stay off the radar I dont like how he is going about his game. Just posting ot barely keep up. And in general comes off apathetic. He says hes a bored townie but i think it could be a lurking mafia BByte- He has posted but not alot he seems content to just respond to people. He did comment about breadcrumbs which is true. Its funny because in my game of Mini Mafia X WBG claimed a blue role and because he breadcrumbed it people beleived him. He did post his reads on people which is good. I would like to see more posting from him. My question is what do you think of adam Bbyte . Blazinghand- Blazinghand has been the biggest posting factor atm. Trying to keep people from lurking and in general trying to generate discussion. While it may not be kosher its seems like its working great. People have responded to his prods. My biggest concern is if he was mafia he would be doing a terrific job. I agree that he has been very pro town. But remember guys putting to much trust in someone is always a mistake. So be wary BroodKingEXE- Ok so far i posted a little to nothing. I gave my read on him before. clickerz Well i said previously that he gave off a non pro-town vibe off. I have to disagree now. Rereading his posts I just think hes just new town. Well he can be a bit hard to read i still think hes just a newbie that doesnt know whats scummy and whats townlike. However Regardless We do need to see some posts from you about what you think about other players. If you continue to post like you are you are prolly gonna get lynched. So post your content. If its wrong is not what matters what matters is that you gave your opinion. ElectricBlack- Ok so far ElectricBlack hasnt posted much so far. His last post was pretty good containing content about the lynching policies. His respond to BH and about how he though BH was doing a decent job of making discussion. I would really would like to get your reads on the town tho. He does bring up a good point while BH is prolly town we can completly rule anyone out as scum. Establishing thread presence is a good think for both townies and mafia to do. But again i would like you reads. So far i have a null read ey215- Has posted alot. Mostly because of the arguement between him and and BH. BH called him out for a no content post ey responded by saying BH was making baseless accusations. And it escalated from there. Veli was trying to bring the heat down a bit (good by him). But eventually they decided to just settle things, ey defended himself well. Although to be honest im not sure of his alignment as far. He could be mafia who just did a great job defending himself or a townie who made sure that BH is not going to unchecked. Im going to keep my eye on him. Grackaroni- So far he has posted his reads and gave a good bit of content. Giving his reads and trying to keep everyone on the same page He mentioned that he agrees with hassybaby about not making straight up accusations like Tunkeg did so early in the game when people havent posted alot. Will i dont really agree with this. I think coming out with your town reads is always good. Premature sometimes but good. I do agree with his case on Adam tho so far hes still the scummiest in my book. So far i got a pretty good town read on him. Hassybaby- Ok so Hassybaby got outright accused of mafia with out even posting. Maybe we should go with people guts and just lynch him lol. Well his first post comes out and talks about the LaL policy. He mentions that we should not just lynch a lurker or liar if we have a good read on someone. I think that we all agreed on this. He then talks about how he doesnt like Tunkeg accusations However i mentioned before i dont think It is the wrong thing to do to put your reads out there. I personally like waiting for everyone to post but regardless. He then tells Tunkeg that He is accusing people to much. I still disagree with this. Tunkeg is generating discussion. I honestly think aggressive scum hunting is completely fine. I don't agree with him on his points. Weather he is scum or not is hard to tell i would like his reads before jumping to conclusions Tunkeg- Ok So i have mixed feelings on Tunkeg First off he comes out with his alignment posts and calls out a nonposter and me as being scum. Honeslty i think you should let people post before calling them mafia lol. I do like how he is poking and generating discussion. While i think his biggest disappointment thing was still stupid which he mentions as well. Hassy mentions that he thinks tunkeg is accusing to many people early in the game. But i think that while Tunkeg has said somethings that i dont neccesary agree with i do think its furthing a town agenda. I do think hes coming off protown even if his accusations are not always right. Tunkeg what d Velinath- Well as far i see Veli as being at townie. he talks about the policies a good bit Actually alot but that what the current conversation was about. he kind of gets on BKEXE case. Which i kinda did at the start as well Its really hard to read BKEXE but i still do think hes a townie. And then he gives his reads alot of them were null reads but it is still hard to place alignments on people this early in the game. I do find his amount of posting comforting tho. Makes it a bit easier to disguish his alignment. xsksc- Ok so i like his first post. It pretty much generated the discussion we had on policy lynches and so forth it was good to get out of the way. He mentions posts about breadcrumbs not proving blues which i agree with. talks about policies a good bit. and then tell BH to not be trigger happy. Its kinda funny that everyone gave an opinion on BH. Again aggressive scumhunting is good imo and making people post is great. He got called out on not scum hunting. Which i kinda agree with. he started the conversation about lynching talked about that for a while and then goes and doesnt give much of his reads or even analyzes any posts. I want to see his reads but im leaning scummy xtfftc- Well so far i dont really agree with his policy posts. I do think lynch all liars is a fine policy. He mentions that last minute lynches are a bad thing and i have to agree. he strongly agrees that everyone should post regardless of how we get them to post so he agrees with BH method. He calls out Ey as his strongest mafia read tho. Ill have to go over ey's posts again. As my read was no where near strong on Ey. He also mentions that While people can buddy up for instance BH and Veli that they can often be town and posts an example Syllogism and Sandroba. I do agree that both. So far a null read. I would like to see more of your reads tho Well thats what i got so far plz everyone tell me what yall think this took fucking forever thank god for filters tho.
Continuing to dislike Adam. Says Bbyte is quiet, but crucially talks about WBG's breadcrumbing in mini mafia X, claiming that it caused people to believe him... while crucially leaving out the fact that WBG wasn't actually the jailkeeper in that game. WBG was a mafia member using breadcrumbs to pretend to be the jailkeeper. People bought his story, and so he won as mafia. This is NOT a good example of breadcrumbing, this is showing its crucial limitations! WBG WAS NOT BLUE IN THAT GAME.
Hedges about me.
Backtracks on BKEXE. BKEXE has not posted in between his posts, but now he retracts his scumread on BKEXE and claims BKEXE is new town. Tells him to post.
On December 05 2011 09:19 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 08:04 Tunkeg wrote:On December 05 2011 06:56 jaybrundage wrote:
And tunkeg i would like your response to my reads heck. I would like everyones feed back. lets get some discussion going On December 05 2011 06:25 jaybrundage wrote:My reads so far Adam4167- Ok so far i have a scum read on adam I you can see in my last post why click He just comes off happy to stay off the radar I dont like how he is going about his game. Just posting ot barely keep up. And in general comes off apathetic. He says hes a bored townie but i think it could be a lurking mafia BByte- He has posted but not alot he seems content to just respond to people. He did comment about breadcrumbs which is true. Its funny because in my game of Mini Mafia X WBG claimed a blue role and because he breadcrumbed it people beleived him. He did post his reads on people which is good. I would like to see more posting from him. My question is what do you think of adam Bbyte . Blazinghand- Blazinghand has been the biggest posting factor atm. Trying to keep people from lurking and in general trying to generate discussion. While it may not be kosher its seems like its working great. People have responded to his prods. My biggest concern is if he was mafia he would be doing a terrific job. I agree that he has been very pro town. But remember guys putting to much trust in someone is always a mistake. So be wary BroodKingEXE- Ok so far i posted a little to nothing. I gave my read on him before. clickerz Well i said previously that he gave off a non pro-town vibe off. I have to disagree now. Rereading his posts I just think hes just new town. Well he can be a bit hard to read i still think hes just a newbie that doesnt know whats scummy and whats townlike. However Regardless We do need to see some posts from you about what you think about other players. If you continue to post like you are you are prolly gonna get lynched. So post your content. If its wrong is not what matters what matters is that you gave your opinion. ElectricBlack- Ok so far ElectricBlack hasnt posted much so far. His last post was pretty good containing content about the lynching policies. His respond to BH and about how he though BH was doing a decent job of making discussion. I would really would like to get your reads on the town tho. He does bring up a good point while BH is prolly town we can completly rule anyone out as scum. Establishing thread presence is a good think for both townies and mafia to do. But again i would like you reads. So far i have a null read ey215- Has posted alot. Mostly because of the arguement between him and and BH. BH called him out for a no content post ey responded by saying BH was making baseless accusations. And it escalated from there. Veli was trying to bring the heat down a bit (good by him). But eventually they decided to just settle things, ey defended himself well. Although to be honest im not sure of his alignment as far. He could be mafia who just did a great job defending himself or a townie who made sure that BH is not going to unchecked. Im going to keep my eye on him. Grackaroni- So far he has posted his reads and gave a good bit of content. Giving his reads and trying to keep everyone on the same page He mentioned that he agrees with hassybaby about not making straight up accusations like Tunkeg did so early in the game when people havent posted alot. Will i dont really agree with this. I think coming out with your town reads is always good. Premature sometimes but good. I do agree with his case on Adam tho so far hes still the scummiest in my book. So far i got a pretty good town read on him. Hassybaby- Ok so Hassybaby got outright accused of mafia with out even posting. Maybe we should go with people guts and just lynch him lol. Well his first post comes out and talks about the LaL policy. He mentions that we should not just lynch a lurker or liar if we have a good read on someone. I think that we all agreed on this. He then talks about how he doesnt like Tunkeg accusations However i mentioned before i dont think It is the wrong thing to do to put your reads out there. I personally like waiting for everyone to post but regardless. He then tells Tunkeg that He is accusing people to much. I still disagree with this. Tunkeg is generating discussion. I honestly think aggressive scum hunting is completely fine. I don't agree with him on his points. Weather he is scum or not is hard to tell i would like his reads before jumping to conclusions Tunkeg- Ok So i have mixed feelings on Tunkeg First off he comes out with his alignment posts and calls out a nonposter and me as being scum. Honeslty i think you should let people post before calling them mafia lol. I do like how he is poking and generating discussion. While i think his biggest disappointment thing was still stupid which he mentions as well. Hassy mentions that he thinks tunkeg is accusing to many people early in the game. But i think that while Tunkeg has said somethings that i dont neccesary agree with i do think its furthing a town agenda. I do think hes coming off protown even if his accusations are not always right. Tunkeg what d Velinath- Well as far i see Veli as being at townie. he talks about the policies a good bit Actually alot but that what the current conversation was about. he kind of gets on BKEXE case. Which i kinda did at the start as well Its really hard to read BKEXE but i still do think hes a townie. And then he gives his reads alot of them were null reads but it is still hard to place alignments on people this early in the game. I do find his amount of posting comforting tho. Makes it a bit easier to disguish his alignment. xsksc- Ok so i like his first post. It pretty much generated the discussion we had on policy lynches and so forth it was good to get out of the way. He mentions posts about breadcrumbs not proving blues which i agree with. talks about policies a good bit. and then tell BH to not be trigger happy. Its kinda funny that everyone gave an opinion on BH. Again aggressive scumhunting is good imo and making people post is great. He got called out on not scum hunting. Which i kinda agree with. he started the conversation about lynching talked about that for a while and then goes and doesnt give much of his reads or even analyzes any posts. I want to see his reads but im leaning scummy xtfftc- Well so far i dont really agree with his policy posts. I do think lynch all liars is a fine policy. He mentions that last minute lynches are a bad thing and i have to agree. he strongly agrees that everyone should post regardless of how we get them to post so he agrees with BH method. He calls out Ey as his strongest mafia read tho. Ill have to go over ey's posts again. As my read was no where near strong on Ey. He also mentions that While people can buddy up for instance BH and Veli that they can often be town and posts an example Syllogism and Sandroba. I do agree that both. So far a null read. I would like to see more of your reads tho Well thats what i got so far plz everyone tell me what yall think this took fucking forever thank god for filters tho. Overall a good post, I agree on most of your reads. But my comments are: Adam: I was also tipping abit against scum on Adam, because of his lurking ways, but he is the only one who have been saying anti-town on Blazinghand, and I would think scum would not go after Blazinghand, but go for more easier targets. ElectricBlack Not sure if I agree on that his post was a really good post, it was an ok first post, and had he followed up then yeah, he could have been able to establish himself as town. But for me it seems abit like he is trying to give out as little information as possible, and that is not good for town. xtfftc He is a very hard read indeed. His posts have been seemingly protown, and he have had good activity. But he have supported me and Blazinghand, and as a scum that might be smart as many have town reads on us. He then have put his red mark on ey215 and a FOS on xsksc. ey215 is one of those who at the time could get framed and bandwagon lynched (based of his feud with Blazinghand) and afterward it would not be as obvious as for instance BroodKingEXE. Xsksc as a town is also a player I would presume scum would get rid off if they had the chance. So I consider xtfftc either a good townie or a great scum. As a final note I would like to say I completely agree of your comment about Blazinghand. There is no such thing as confirmed town! Hm you make a good point about Adam. Going after BH would not be the smartest move because most everyone has a town read on him. (again this does not make him a confirmed townie) But i really dont like how he just accepted your role of bored townie. And also he is trying to discredit people with out much evidence. I see where your coming from. But he just gives me a scummy vibe. I would love to see some more posts from him. And maybe we could confirm if he really is scum or not. Shoot i was hoping ElectricBlack would of posted again by now. I see what your saying here. One real post isnt going to helpful to the town i could see it if he was a mafia just trying ot lay low. Given that i do want to see a lot more from you EB at least some of your reads theres a lot of discussion going in time to throw your voice in. Xtffc is a hard read If hes scum things arent gonna be pretty. I dont know he has posted well tho and gives good reasons out. The thing is also he doesnt seem afraid to post which is good but at the same time a good mafia would be very forward with there opinions as well. Im going to have to go over his posts again see if i can find anything
Continues to stay on the Adam Wagon. hedges on EB and xttfc.
On December 05 2011 10:13 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 10:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:On December 05 2011 09:44 Velinath wrote:On December 05 2011 09:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Venilath
You have good reason to be suspicious of me changing my tone, but BH's style forced me to be hastily defensive in the first few posts I made. These posts put me in even more trouble, so I am focusing more on well thought out posts. You can read in to the first posts all you want, but they are defininetly not an accurate representation of the mob. If I were really in the mob, even as a newbie, do you think I would really be that hasty in my posts not bothering to think of the repurcussions? Besides the obvious WIFOM, here's my question: if you realize that well thought out posts are a good way to clear your name and help the town, why not give well thought out posts early? You're right that your posts felt rushed and reactive, but why did you post like that in the first place? You mention that you are a newbie, yet you have read up on other games before this one. Well not everyone does that, so this is truly the first game I have experienced. After my posts I took a step back and looked at them and I saw that they were terribly thought out. In the heat of the moment a newbie would obviously falter. Guys i have to say i really dont think BKEXE is mafia. I know when it was my first game and i was just a townie (havent got to play mafia yet) : (. I posted alot of one liners and not with a lot of content heck in my first game i just got on a bandwagon trying to lynch someone before anyone had even posted lol. Later i died because i didnt play well and the mafia were very good. Also while i did try to change my posting for the better people saw that as a sign that my mafia friends had helped me get better. I can honestly say that i can relate to a lot of what BKEXE is saying. Im glad to see his posts change i hope he can can keep improving i honestly dont see a lynch on him being productive. If he makes a scum slip thats different. but remeber you can only take WIFOM so far.
Defending BKEXE
On December 05 2011 12:48 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 10:58 ElectricBlack wrote:On December 05 2011 10:50 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 10:47 Velinath wrote:On December 05 2011 10:43 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 10:42 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 10:40 ElectricBlack wrote:
I'd be much more comfortable lynching Hassybaby than any of the current candidates. I need to go to sleep now (it's well past midnight over here), I'll give details as for why this is in the morning. No. Vote. Don't wait, don't delay-- it's anti-town to do so. Cast your vote, even if you don't have time to explain. Actually, this delay is more anti-town than Adam's amazing inactivity. It's anti-worthful, rather than just worthless. ##Vote ElectricBlackVote or die. I disagree with this. He's made a stance, and he'll post information when he has time. I'm okay with that. If he doesn't post his reasoning, then I'll be concerned, but for now I'm willing to wait for that. My point is that he has said who he'd be comfortable voting for. He said he's comfortable voting for Hassybaby, but he's obviously not-- he didn't take the 2-3 seconds to type in his vote. He's leading us by the nose. He's hiding behind the excuse of sleep to avoid an explanation, which I might buy. But to avoid slapping down a simple vote? No, this isn't normal. this is anti-town and I will not stand for it. Think about it-- if he's town, his actions don't make sense at all. Why not slap down the vote? If he's mafia his actions make perfect sense. Now I'm not gonna vote him until the morning just to spite you. I will vote in my own time when I can explain in detail why and how I came to the conclusion. In addition I still have a few people to read up on and form an opinion on, so I might not even end up voting Hassybaby when it comes to it. Wow talk about missing the shit storm im sorry i wasnt here for that discussion. Well it seems that alot of people are changing there vote to EB. While understand the reason and as far as i can see it its because hes being a dick. Although im not sure if he mafia or town. I really think it would be unbearably stupid to act like this. But at the same time you can use a WIFOM to so that he could be mafia but i dont know. Im hoping it just him being arrogant. I want to see his thoughts on hassybaby and the game in general before switching my vote. And i noticed adam is here. So i want to wait to hear what he says as well. I also find Bbyte case on Veli interesting. I had a pretty solid town read on him but ill double check his posts. Better safe then sorry. Also i would like your input on the other cases Bbyte and why they dont appeal to you as much Btw xsksc i am glad your posted havent seen you in a while. I noticed what you said about tunkeg as well. I mentioned in my post that he made a point to go from he was disappointed in my posting to calling me scum even tho i never posted in that time as well. Kinda odd. but at the same time i dont see him as scum I think hes more of a townie trying to poke and get some reactions from people. Im curious what you think about xtfffc i dont have much of a read on him as well can you give more more incite on him then what you said. And Your Spacing bugs' the crap outta me
Hedging on EB.
On December 06 2011 03:58 jaybrundage wrote:
OK guys im reading up on the thread now I have to say the main big problem i find thats going on in this town. Not even in related to the mafia is this.
Everyone is getting so heating we have had people get angry and make posts that dont contribute at all to discussion. You can see it so many times in the thread.
First it was the ey and BH arguments where for the most part it was fun but then snide comments where made about one person and a bit of a angry retort back.
Then it was EB who got angry at BH for trying to force him to vote saying him not voting was to spite him. This doesnt help anyone and paints EB in a bad light regardless if hes mafia or not.
And after that xsksc made a call saying he wanted to lynch some people he thought were being retarded.
I even think i might have missed another case of this happening.
Granted everyone came back and admitted that they went over board.
But guys getting angry and letting your emotions guide your responses isn't going to help us. We have to rely on our logic alone and analyze. If your angry or annoyed or pissed just take a second and reread what your typing, and see if your helping the town or hurting it.
Thats what i got to say atm. Ill post some more comments on what else happened in the thread in a bit.
Another meaningless post. All situations described end with people coming out better off at the end.
So, at the end, JB has been fairly active, had hedged quite a bit, and hasn't said anything of value. Most of hi posts were meaningless and quiet before I made my scumread there. Therefore, he is one of the three people I consider "Vaguely Scummy"
Was the case against him particularly strong? No, not really. I'm not voting for him. But there it is. His posts are low-content, high-hedging, almost like he's trying to seem active without BEING active. He misquotes the meaning of breadcrumbs from Mini Mafia X.
However, since my calling him out, he's slipped up quite a bit. Here's the evidence that's occurred SINCE I made the scumread:
On December 06 2011 04:48 jaybrundage wrote:
I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.
You too BH if you wanna call me scummy awesome i just want to see some real case not a off hand remark about. How you think i might be scummy. And second off you called me scummy as well as adam and BKEXE i want cases ffs you say you wanna lynch Bbyte for what lurking if you have a scummy case on me plz lets hear it.
Also you say you think that the scum reads from you are for Me adam and BKEXE. Honestly how does that even make sense. I know i defended BKEXE. I honestly dont see him as scum. But i was really hoping he would post more. He posted on adam. Which is great but he just isn't a huge contributing factor this game. Maybe i was wrong about BKEXE but tell me why.
And also If adam is scum why would he push his two "scum buddies" which in your opinion is Me and BKEXE. It does make any sense. If i was scum why the hell would i push adam and then for him to OMGUS me back. It doesn't add up.
Honestly adam i was hoping to see some analyze not a simple OMGUS. I have tried to be active in this game posting my reads. And what i have to say about. Right now i dont agree with the Bytes lynch i think it will end up being a policy lynch and not scum lynch.
I think him voting Veli is him trying to contribute. I think its misguided but i dont think its the right vote we should be making.
Grack i want your opinion.
BKEXE wont be hear till lynch which does not make me happy. I do not like the Bbyte lynch. I do feel like xsksc would be a possiblity. Im going to reread a bit. So right now i think i might go for Xsksc or adam im gonna reread for a bit and decide
So, I think he's vaguely scummy, and have vague sumreads on adam and BKEXE. However, his reasoning is completely shitty. The fact of the matter is Mafia will gladly distance themselves from each other in town discussions! Mafia will throw each other under the bus to appear innocent, or work together to make it look like they're not bussing, etc. The fact that Adam is scummy, and so is BKEXE, does NOT Make JB innocent-- that's a logical fallacy the kind of which gets towns buried.
Bad arguments. No value.
On December 06 2011 05:46 jaybrundage wrote:
I really hopes Bbyte can come in here and defend himself.
I know hes been semi lurking but he hasn't even got to see this recent move against him.
More defending the lurker. lurkers gonna lurk, man.
On December 06 2011 06:02 jaybrundage wrote:
xtffc you still havent told me why you think im mafia and again if you think adam is bussing me (really) then why would i try to buss him back its makes no sense comon give me something you too BH get on here and post
If he's bussing you, then of course your'e gonna bus him back! it makes it look like you guys have nothing in common. This is another really dumb bussing argument. ._.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the total case for JB. mild scumread. Not huge-- or else i'd vote him. He's made several slipups, but there we have it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Discuss nothing this night. If you have something to post, write it up and post it 24 hours from now-- do not give the mafia any additional material to work with until after they've made their decision. If you think you're about to die and have some grand revelation to make, make it 1 minute before the night ends so the mafia can't base their kill off it.
See you guys in 24 hours.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 10:09 ElectricBlack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Atm i wouldnt vote hassybaby for the same reason i didn't vote Bbyte. Hassybaby has not been able to defend himself. And now that Bbyte is hear hes came to late to defend himself. I hope hes mafia but i dont have a good feeling about this. And I think you're the last scum That's it, jaybrundage, xtf, hassy. Game solved. Next one?
Not that I disagree; but I'd like to hear your case re: JB is scum. My read on him atm is weak.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 10:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Atm i wouldnt vote hassybaby for the same reason i didn't vote Bbyte. Hassybaby has not been able to defend himself. And now that Bbyte is hear hes came to late to defend himself. I hope hes mafia but i dont have a good feeling about this.
On December 06 2011 10:40 jaybrundage wrote:
Fuck
Also, if you're scum, this is some seriously sub-par acting. And if your town, this is unuseful posting. And more hedging.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Now that I think about it, I don't think jb is scum. Originally, I thought his actions were a little scummy because of the hedging, but it's not too unreasonable to do that. To be fair, I just said he sounded a little scummy.
Really though I think I need a bit more time to analyze. Eventually we'll find out the results of night actions, to. Actually, this will be a big boon for us, since our dt and/or watcher will have info. Later in the game the town has more info. Lacking any additional info, therefore, I withdraw my scumread on jb. You never know what'll happen tonight, though, so let's wait for night actions to complete.
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EPT
