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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 15:08 Blazinghand wrote:
I'll admit I made a mistake in my initial vote, but I quickly realized it and rectified the situation. The fact of the matter is, we have very limited time. We MUST lynch today, according to the rules.
EBWOP: I mean,we must lynch during this town-day, which lasts for another ~40 hours.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 15:17 xsksc wrote:
I'm not saying you did anything wrong Blazing, you certainly seem motivated, which is good. All I'm asking is that you weigh things out carefully before jumping to conclusions (especially about people who are asleep). We have plenty of time to hunt scum with.
I think that's fair; I'll do my best not to jump to conclusions. Just to clarify, my intial vote reason was this:
On December 04 2011 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:
##Vote Electricblack
ElectricBlack literally hasn't posted. ElectricBlack, come out and start talking, or I see no reason to change my vote. That being said, if you come by and start contributing, I see no reason to vote for you :D I'm mostly doing this to get you out here and helping.
So hurry up.
Yes, I didn't notice he was european, but my vote wasn't "oh let's lynch this guy", it was "I want to make this guy post"
It seems to have worked well on BKEXE. I'm comfortable using my vote to pressure lurkers, since, as you said, we have plenty of time to hunt scum with. I can change my vote later if I want, but as it stands, it's my only tool to make potential mafiosos start talking
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 15:18 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:05 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 15:01 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 14:42 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 14:20 Blazinghand wrote:I want to hear what you have to say. Don't flop around like you did in your first post. Be a man. Do the right thing. On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.
As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot Hi, this also feels noncontributive. I feel like what Blazinghand was looking for was more of an opinion on one of the matters we've been discussing in the thread. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the Lynch All Lurkers policy discussed a couple of pages back. Adding questions but no answers isn't really posting content, at least not in my eyes. I'd just like to point out that Blazinghand is calling out people for giving their opinions. I guess if it's not groundbreaking then it's fluff. While I agree with you that just posting a question isn't enough, giving an opinion that agrees with others shouldn't be considered not participating. If we're going to win, the town needs to work together and discouraging newer townies to post by slapping them around when they do is probably not the right answer. What's your opinion on BKEXE right now, considering his third post? While I agree that any content (even agreement) is good content at this point, do you consider his posts contributory? I agree with what you said that he needs to add some more content, and I fundamentally disagree with his saying that we shouldn't lynch lurkers because they might be new. If they're not contributing, as long as we don't have a very solid lead, then I'm all for getting rid of lurkers. However, we need to be careful about what we define lurking as. If it's just they never post, that's easy. If it's they post, but only a couple lines then that's more of an decision to be made through analysis. I'd rather see a few posts a day that are failry well thought out and longer than a bunch of one liners that don't mean anything. Frankly, no read on anyone at the moment, but I'd like to see more from him.
So, EY, you gonna respond to my post at any point? I still want to know why you called me scum. In case you lost it:
On December 04 2011 15:02 Blazinghand wrote:First of, EY, thank you for responding to my post! I'm glad that you've taken some time out of your busy LoL-playing schedule to read the thread. It's important that we get everyone talking so we can develop information and get an idea of who's who. I think you make a lot of good points. I take issue with your statements here, though: Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 14:55 ey215 wrote:
Fuck, I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations therefore you're scum just trying to get the town fighting among themselves. Not to mention you're trying to get a bandwagon started on someone for either not posting because they're asleep or because of some assumed fluff.
I'm fine with a lurker today, but I'm not deciding on which until closer to the deadline.
My accusations are not baseless. In fact, I never even said you were scum-- I just noted you're a lurker, and you need to post. In fact, given that I addressed 4 people, it's literally impossible that I think they're all scum. But making a single vague post is not acceptable. If you'd accurately read my posts, you'd note that I unvote people who are asleep, and I'm not trying to bandwagon-- i'm trying to get people talking so they can show their true colors. Given how minor my analysis of you was, this is a very strong OMGUS (omg, no u suck) response. I'm doing my best to help town. If you disagree with my methods, we can have a fruitful discussion. Am I the one throwing out baseless accusations, or is that you? But you must admit, I've gotten lurkers (including you) to stop lurking. Is that not helpful?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 15:22 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:11 jaybrundage wrote:On December 04 2011 15:01 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 14:42 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 14:20 Blazinghand wrote:I want to hear what you have to say. Don't flop around like you did in your first post. Be a man. Do the right thing. On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.
As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot Hi, this also feels noncontributive. I feel like what Blazinghand was looking for was more of an opinion on one of the matters we've been discussing in the thread. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the Lynch All Lurkers policy discussed a couple of pages back. Adding questions but no answers isn't really posting content, at least not in my eyes. I'd just like to point out that Blazinghand is calling out people for giving their opinions. I guess if it's not groundbreaking then it's fluff. While I agree with you that just posting a question isn't enough, giving an opinion that agrees with others shouldn't be considered not participating. If we're going to win, the town needs to work together and discouraging newer townies to post by slapping them around when they do is probably not the right answer. Well you could say blazinghand is coming off aggressive. However honestly i think its just scum hunting. You should be aggressive and state your opinion if you think someone is scum. And remember just because someones new doesn't mean there town. You could be new and still draw mafia. I honestly am not sure how to read BKEXE hes obviously new. But is he a newbie townie or a newbie mafia. On December 04 2011 13:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys!
Great to be joining. I think that when we vote we should make sure people did not mispeak.
I think that we all need to figure out what we want to do as a group.
What do you think? This was his first post and while there was alot of discussion going on in the thread he just posts this. Not even commentating on what was going on in the thread. Then talking about what we need to do as a group. When we already were talking about policy lynches. I would not straight out call him scum at this point. I just dont see him as being pro-town I didn't think Blazing was trying to do anything but scum hunt. However, I don't fully agree with his methods. Creating a contentious atmosphere in a game full of newbies who are likely intimidated is probably not the best way to get the town working together. Did it get me to post more, sure. Will it everyone else? I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not sure browbeating everyone into posting is going to help us figure out the scum lurkers over the town lurkers.
You realize that if both scum and town lurkers don't have to post at all, there's no way to differentiate them at all? Even if I have to "browbeat" them into talking, it's better to have browbeaten info than no info. We don't have much to work off right now, so I'd rather produce some information. So far, 100% of lurkers who aren't asleep that i've targetted have come forward.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
@velinath: that's basically my philosophy. much better summarized than me. Thanks :D
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 15:31 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 15:22 Blazinghand wrote:On December 04 2011 15:18 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:05 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 15:01 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 14:42 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 14:20 Blazinghand wrote:I want to hear what you have to say. Don't flop around like you did in your first post. Be a man. Do the right thing. On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.
As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot Hi, this also feels noncontributive. I feel like what Blazinghand was looking for was more of an opinion on one of the matters we've been discussing in the thread. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the Lynch All Lurkers policy discussed a couple of pages back. Adding questions but no answers isn't really posting content, at least not in my eyes. I'd just like to point out that Blazinghand is calling out people for giving their opinions. I guess if it's not groundbreaking then it's fluff. While I agree with you that just posting a question isn't enough, giving an opinion that agrees with others shouldn't be considered not participating. If we're going to win, the town needs to work together and discouraging newer townies to post by slapping them around when they do is probably not the right answer. What's your opinion on BKEXE right now, considering his third post? While I agree that any content (even agreement) is good content at this point, do you consider his posts contributory? I agree with what you said that he needs to add some more content, and I fundamentally disagree with his saying that we shouldn't lynch lurkers because they might be new. If they're not contributing, as long as we don't have a very solid lead, then I'm all for getting rid of lurkers. However, we need to be careful about what we define lurking as. If it's just they never post, that's easy. If it's they post, but only a couple lines then that's more of an decision to be made through analysis. I'd rather see a few posts a day that are failry well thought out and longer than a bunch of one liners that don't mean anything. Frankly, no read on anyone at the moment, but I'd like to see more from him. So, EY, you gonna respond to my post at any point? I still want to know why you called me scum. In case you lost it: On December 04 2011 15:02 Blazinghand wrote:First of, EY, thank you for responding to my post! I'm glad that you've taken some time out of your busy LoL-playing schedule to read the thread. It's important that we get everyone talking so we can develop information and get an idea of who's who. I think you make a lot of good points. I take issue with your statements here, though: On December 04 2011 14:55 ey215 wrote:
Fuck, I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations therefore you're scum just trying to get the town fighting among themselves. Not to mention you're trying to get a bandwagon started on someone for either not posting because they're asleep or because of some assumed fluff.
I'm fine with a lurker today, but I'm not deciding on which until closer to the deadline.
My accusations are not baseless. In fact, I never even said you were scum-- I just noted you're a lurker, and you need to post. In fact, given that I addressed 4 people, it's literally impossible that I think they're all scum. But making a single vague post is not acceptable. If you'd accurately read my posts, you'd note that I unvote people who are asleep, and I'm not trying to bandwagon-- i'm trying to get people talking so they can show their true colors. Given how minor my analysis of you was, this is a very strong OMGUS (omg, no u suck) response. I'm doing my best to help town. If you disagree with my methods, we can have a fruitful discussion. Am I the one throwing out baseless accusations, or is that you? But you must admit, I've gotten lurkers (including you) to stop lurking. Is that not helpful? You took that part out of context. My full post: Show nested quote +Posting in between games of LoL.
So, we're asked our opinion on what we think about LaL and lynching lurkers, I share mine and then get called out for doing nothing but posting fluff? Would you rather we discuss the weather or just /random a lynch for the first day? The reason I talked about common sense is the last game youngmini got a lot of support for being lynched (Palmar mayor killed him) for essentially a misstatement.
Yes, that kind of stuff does need to be pointed out. There's no reason to lynch someone for a misstatement. It is not unwritten or does not go without saying unless we actually agree to it.
As for you're statements about lynching all lurkers unless someone gives you a "DAMN GOOD REASON', well having a scumread is one. Am I good with lynching a lurker today, sure but let's not go talking about how you've got a good scum read on anyone that's posted once.
Fuck, I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations therefore you're scum just trying to get the town fighting among themselves. Not to mention you're trying to get a bandwagon started on someone for either not posting because they're asleep or because of some assumed fluff.
I'm fine with a lurker today, but I'm not deciding on which until closer to the deadline.
I was obviously continuing a thought on how calling out me for posting what you've defined as fluff when it was an opinion on the subject matter being discussed, and one that was at least mildly thought out makes it just as easy for someone to call you out for baseless accusations. Yes, to some extent that's all we have at the moment, but by god if no one wants my opinion don't ask. I was not calling you scum, but pointing out a hypothetical next time I label it more clearly so you can understand.
Ah, my bad. I read: "I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations..."
My contention is that you literally can't say that accurately, because my accusations have not been baseless, so the entire hypothetical is unreasonable. When I read it, I thought that either you CAN say my accusations are baseless, and you have a good point, or you CAN'T, and you need to withdraw that point.
But yes, a hypothetical based on a patently false fact-- that's what that was. Please label these more appropriately in the future so I can understand.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
@EY: I think we got off on the wrong foot here. I would like to not that your first post, fluff or not, WAS your only post in this thread, and that's one of the big reasons I targetted you-- of the people who were confirmed awake (had posted) you had the fewest posts.
I don't think you're mafia-- and the snide remark about LoL was, yes, rather snide, but it was aimed at someone I thought was accusing me of being scum and trying to make excuses not to post. I'd like to retract that statement. I didn't mean to make fu of your playing of LoL.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Also, you'll note I've been nothing but incredibly polite to everyone except for you, who has been incredibly dickish to me. I would assert that I am creating a tense atmosphere attempting to draw out the mafia, but any combativeness here is coming from you, who keeps on trying to escalate our difference of opinion in a flame war.
Prove me wrong about you, EY. Let's be friends.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Well, EY, you can rest assured that as a single personality I won't dominate the discussions-- you certainly will be a good counter-balance :D
I think we've got about 40 hours left.
Also, I think BKEXE has been poked a fair bit. Time to bust out some new poking power.
##Unvote BroodKingEXE
Adam has correctly noted that there are no no-lynches in his sole post. Helpful, but not enormously so. Also, he's certainly awake since he's Australian. I'm gonna slap my vote on him and wait for him to contribute some more. Maybe he's eating or out or something, but hopefully this will get more than 1 post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&user=192320&user=192320
His sole post:
On December 04 2011 13:35 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 13:24 Velinath wrote:
EBWOP because you guys post too fast:
Blazinghand, I completely agree with your idea here. If we lack a case on a poster in the thread, lurkers are, regardless of alignment, anti-town, and they should be lynched in preference to a no-lynch.
Given that,
##Vote: Bbite
Let's hear from another nonposter. We cannot have no-lynches in this game due to the voting rules. I am all for lynching anyone who scum slips or is caught in an outright lie, as they're almost sure to be mafia. Lynching lurkers on the other hand, while I think they offer nothing to the town, also provides the town with very little new information and costs us an additional townie through a night-kill. As previously stated in the thread, bored townies are more likely to go inactive/lurk due to not having a very interesting role, whereas a mafia member has two teammates who are relying on him/her to stay active and try to achieve a win.
Adam, I'd like to see you contributing to the discussion more. I'm heading to bed relatively soon, but when I wake up I hope to see a new post from you.
##Vote Adam4167
I don't necessarily think you're scum or that other people should vote for you, but you've only made one post, and that's simply not good enough.
Hurry up.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 04 2011 21:58 BByte wrote:\ Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:38 ElectricBlack wrote:On December 04 2011 12:26 xsksc wrote:
Well, with something like a counter-claim, we have to decide who's telling the truth and who's not, breadcrumbs are useful for this later in the game. Breadcrumbs aren't useful. Nothing about breadcrumbs confirms the person performing them. There is nothing that stops the mafia from having an elaborately thought out claim they've breadcrumbed since day one. Do not attempt to use breadcrumbs to confirm anything. Breadcrumbs alone can't confirm a claim, but they can still be useful in analyzing which claimant is the real one. Depending on who the claimants checked, whether any of those checks flipped is still valid information to use.
Breadcrumbs should not be used to confirm a claim. A mafia dude can plant crumbs, then choose to use them or not. Here's what breadcrumbs are for:
Situation: Player Alpha is a Detective. He finds out Players Bravo and Charlie are innocent and Player Delta is a mafia member. Each day, he indicates the results of his detective work in his posts, hidden in a way that you wouldn't know to look for them unless you knew he was the detective. He is killed by the mafia during the night, and everyone sees that he was the detective. Players go through his filter and find out his investigative results by following the trail of breadcrumbs.
This is the primary use of breadcrumbs. Used this way, it lets our DT and/or Watcher to convey the results of their investigations from beyond the grave. DT and/or Watcher in this game should begin leaving breadcrumbs after they have investigative results, so that when they die we know what they knew.
Use breadcrumbs to pass along knowledge in case you die, not to support roleclaims.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
So, a lot of players have come by and posted while I was gone! We're running out of time- The day ends in 34 hours as of this posting.
Urgent Lurkers:
Hassybaby
You literally haven't posted since signing up.
Moderately Urgent Lurkers:
Adam4167
Still hasn't posted since I've voted for him. I suspect he was asleep or otherwise away from his computer. I still want you to respond to my post, by the way.
BroodKingEXE
A lot of low or no-content posts. Came out of his shell a bit when the pressure was on, but otherwise no contributions.
ElectricBlack
One post since I prodded him, and that's it. Big post though and offered a little bit of content, but mostly just head-nodding.
Grackaroni
Despite the unbelievably awesome name, offered only some initial commentary on liar and lurker lynching. Answered some rules questions. Not sticking his neck out.
To Hassybaby and all the other lurkers: I want you to post and answer the following questions: Who so far has the scummiest play? Who should we lynch today? Who do you trust the most, and gives you "town" reads? Who are you unsure on?
I was worried about Adam, but honestly, Hassybaby is a much bigger problem. He literally hasn't posted. At all.
##Unvote Adam4167
##Vote Hassybaby
If Hassybaby isn't going to contribute, he doesn't belong in this game. If he's been afk or just hasn't gotten to a computer yet, that's fine-- but I'm not gonna unvote him unless he posts.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
[06:58] == Hassybaby [~Hassybaby@host-92-21-9-84.as13285.net] has joined #TLMafia
[06:59] <Hassybaby> i hate traffic...
[06:59] <Hassybaby> hey very1
Hassybaby, either you have an impersonator on the #TLMafia IRC or you're no longer afk. I'd like to see a response from you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Yay~ okay, can't wait to hear from you. Something for all townies to keep in mind:
On December 04 2011 23:11 Radfield wrote:
Hyshes, the gist is that it is far easier to scumhunt if you can first establish your innocence.
1. If you do not establish your innocence, and have to spend your time defending yourself, you have much less time actively searching for scum. In addition, it can be difficult to scum-hunt when everyone is debating your alignment. You become biased.
2. It is far easier to build a case and gain support for your cause if you have already established an air of innocence. Why would I listen to someone I think is probably scum?
3. Getting lynched Day 1 is generally the worst failure of a town-aligned player. All townies should seek to eliminate their name from the short-list of lynches.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:26 Hassybaby wrote:Ok, firstly, I want to actually say why I haven't posted since the game started: in all honestly, I didn't even know we were starting tonight. So I basically was out all day, and I come back to see the game's begun and I'm already lurking. Now that i know that the game's started, I will be posting plenty more to share my views. About Lynching all Liras/Lurkers: Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 13:06 Blazinghand wrote:
It's acceptable for not everyone to agree on "lynch all liars"-- as long as a fair majority of us do, Nobody will lie. But lying or not, I think the thing we should focus on here is lynching lurkers. I say this because we NEED to make it so mafia talks. Everyone has to contribute. The reason lurking is considered a "viable strategy" is because the less a mafia guy talks, the less mistakes he makes, and the less chances there are that he'll seriously blunder.
If there were no serious repercussions, a Mafia guy will barely talk at all. This game begins with assymetric information-- Mafia know who's town (but not blue), but each individual townie/blue doesn't know anything but his own alignment. In this case, it's absolutely vital we encourage mafia members to talk so we can flush them out. They won't slip up unless they have the opportunity to do so.
This is the prime reason why lynching lurkers is a good idea. If we all strongly believe in this policy, there will be no lurkers. All the townies will be contributing, and all the mafia members will be torn between contributing AND trying to be unhelpful. It puts a huge amount of pressure on the mafia members. The additional reason for lynching lurkers is that we need all of the help the townspeople can give. It's important also to provide a lively conversation for the Blues (we have 2) to take part in. We have a cop and/or a rolechecker and they can't adequately get their information into the conversation without there being a conversation to begin with.
If it turns out we have a lot of townie lurkers even implementing this policy, we're dead anyways. The idea that we shouldn't lynch lurkers because there might be a lot of townie lurkers is inherently flawed-- if there's 1 townie lurker, it's good to get rid of him anyways, and if there are a lot of townie lurkers we're basically boned.
So, we should Lynch All Lurkers. Anyone who disagrees with me better have a damn good reason why. While I agree wit this idea in theory, you have to remember that this is a special case. For a start, the game is very newbie based, and despite the fact that you ant them to talk, people just don't feel like that they can contribute, even though just stating opinions is better than nothing. On top of this, the game has barely been 12 hours, and started quite suddenly. Going after lurkers this early is just not a good idea because odds are people don't even know the game's started. Later on, I'm all for it. But not Day 1 imo, and especially not less than 24 hours since the start of the game. Still reading!
Ah, yeah, I didn't know the game at first either. That's a fair point, and I don't hold your previous inactivity against you.
However, I think it's exceptionally important to not lurk since this is a newbie game, and the town tends to lose in newbie games. Furthermore (and this is even more important), we have no info on the first day. We have to lynch, but our Detective and/or Watcher haven't had a chance to do any checks yet. At this moment in time, the Mafia hold all the cards and we have no info (yet).
Because we're flying the most blind on the first day, it's on this day that it's most important to get the pot stirring, imo. My vote isn't on you because I want to lynch you-- my vote is on you because I don't want to lynch you. I want you to prove yourself, so my vote can move on to Adam where it belongs. Please help me.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
P.S.: It's no rush to read the thread. I'm gonna go grab some breakfast. Take your time and make your analysis accurate. The number one goal is that we prove as many townies as possible innocent today, and put as much pressure as possible on the mafia.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:38 Adam4167 wrote:
As previously stated, I went out drinking. And after I finish this post, I'm going to need at least 6 hours to sleep it off.
I feel that by flinging your vote in every direction, you have cheapened the weight of your vote when you eventually do decide to settle on a target. I also feel the need to point out again that you have had 5 separate votes in 12 hours, which is almost half of the players participating.
You’ve caught my attention Blazinghand, don’t slip =).
Ah, no problem. Hope to see a good post from you in 6 hours. Sleep a little extra if you're sloshed, man, don't be hung over.
Also, you can say what you want about Velinath. He's just another poster to me, and I don't know whether or not he's town. I know he spends a lot of time echoing my statements, but that doesn't make him any more or less town-- agreeing or disagreeing with me doesn't affect my read of your town-ness on its own-- otherwise mafia would hide by agreeing with me.
It's also worth noting that simply posting a lot isn't pro-town-- it's just that a lack of posting is anti-town.
I find his behaviour suspicious and erring on the side of Anti-town. 5 separate votes in 12 hours is akin to spam and is just leading the town around in circles, rather than focusing on any one target.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, I will keep the pressure on and prevent lurkers from lurking, even if it affects your opinion of my play. Nobody gets a free pass from scrutiny.
The fact of the matter is, no matter where my vote goes, at the end of the day it's worth 1 vote, just like everyone else. Everyone I've voted for has come out and talked and caused me to change targets. Compare: amount of info we had before I started voting for people and amount of info we've received because people come out and defend themselves.
I focus on targets who literally haven't posted, and once they become active, I move on. Do you have a better suggestion? If you can think of a more pro-town way for me to act, go ahead... but if your position is "well, I think blazinghand is calling a lot of attention to himself and to quiet people, and making sure everyone gets scrutiny rather than just one person, therefore he is anti-town"....
Well, I don't know what to say to that.
Am I putting words in your mouth? yes, because you haven't done a great job of doing so.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:49 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 00:32 Blazinghand wrote:On December 05 2011 00:26 Hassybaby wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, firstly, I want to actually say why I haven't posted since the game started: in all honestly, I didn't even know we were starting tonight. So I basically was out all day, and I come back to see the game's begun and I'm already lurking. Now that i know that the game's started, I will be posting plenty more to share my views. About Lynching all Liras/Lurkers: On December 04 2011 13:06 Blazinghand wrote:
It's acceptable for not everyone to agree on "lynch all liars"-- as long as a fair majority of us do, Nobody will lie. But lying or not, I think the thing we should focus on here is lynching lurkers. I say this because we NEED to make it so mafia talks. Everyone has to contribute. The reason lurking is considered a "viable strategy" is because the less a mafia guy talks, the less mistakes he makes, and the less chances there are that he'll seriously blunder.
If there were no serious repercussions, a Mafia guy will barely talk at all. This game begins with assymetric information-- Mafia know who's town (but not blue), but each individual townie/blue doesn't know anything but his own alignment. In this case, it's absolutely vital we encourage mafia members to talk so we can flush them out. They won't slip up unless they have the opportunity to do so.
This is the prime reason why lynching lurkers is a good idea. If we all strongly believe in this policy, there will be no lurkers. All the townies will be contributing, and all the mafia members will be torn between contributing AND trying to be unhelpful. It puts a huge amount of pressure on the mafia members. The additional reason for lynching lurkers is that we need all of the help the townspeople can give. It's important also to provide a lively conversation for the Blues (we have 2) to take part in. We have a cop and/or a rolechecker and they can't adequately get their information into the conversation without there being a conversation to begin with.
If it turns out we have a lot of townie lurkers even implementing this policy, we're dead anyways. The idea that we shouldn't lynch lurkers because there might be a lot of townie lurkers is inherently flawed-- if there's 1 townie lurker, it's good to get rid of him anyways, and if there are a lot of townie lurkers we're basically boned.
So, we should Lynch All Lurkers. Anyone who disagrees with me better have a damn good reason why. While I agree wit this idea in theory, you have to remember that this is a special case. For a start, the game is very newbie based, and despite the fact that you ant them to talk, people just don't feel like that they can contribute, even though just stating opinions is better than nothing. On top of this, the game has barely been 12 hours, and started quite suddenly. Going after lurkers this early is just not a good idea because odds are people don't even know the game's started. Later on, I'm all for it. But not Day 1 imo, and especially not less than 24 hours since the start of the game. Still reading! Ah, yeah, I didn't know the game at first either. That's a fair point, and I don't hold your previous inactivity against you. However, I think it's exceptionally important to not lurk since this is a newbie game, and the town tends to lose in newbie games. Furthermore (and this is even more important), we have no info on the first day. We have to lynch, but our Detective and/or Watcher haven't had a chance to do any checks yet. At this moment in time, the Mafia hold all the cards and we have no info (yet). Because we're flying the most blind on the first day, it's on this day that it's most important to get the pot stirring, imo. My vote isn't on you because I want to lynch you-- my vote is on you because I don't want to lynch you. I want you to prove yourself, so my vote can move on to Adam where it belongs. Please help me. Agreed. Lurking in a game this small has to be discouraged, especially considering you won't lean anything through it. However, the pot should be stirred through responses of policies, not open call outs. You have an interesting way of getting people to participate. It may be working, but it really shouldn't be encouraged.There is no sense of cohesion if you start off by accusing people. As for cases, I'll go back through everyone's filter one by one, and see if i spot anything. initial reads have not made me feel like there's a definitive scum read, or a totally strong one yet, but I may have easily missed something.
It's always good to have more analysis. Thanks for the help, and I can't wait to hear your insights.
However, I'd like to defend my methods. You say there's no sense of cohesion if I start off by accusing people. You'll note, however, that I never explicitly state that someone is scum. I haven't stated any reads yet because I dont' have any.
In fact, I've been doing the opposite-- I'm concerned because there's so little content I literally am not able to form reads. I explicitly state in the message of mine you quote that I'm not voting you because I think you're scum-- i'm voting you because I want you not to be.
I'm just trying to flush out lurkers. Some criticize me because my votes are "weak" and i'm flinging them around. Some criticize me because of my strong accusations.
Either criticism has some validity. But I'm not convinced yet that I should change my ways. So far I have forced some activity out of a very quiet town. As people start posting and lurk no more, I may not need to be as aggressive going forwards. However, I refuse to back down. There will be no silence as long as I have a say in things.
We need all the information we can get, so I will go and get it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 02:43 Velinath wrote:Ugh, just woke back up. Hi to all the posters who have popped in! Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 23:23 Tunkeg wrote:On December 04 2011 15:59 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 15:56 xsksc wrote:On December 04 2011 15:52 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 15:48 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:25 Velinath wrote:On December 04 2011 15:22 ey215 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:11 jaybrundage wrote:On December 04 2011 15:01 ey215 wrote:
[quote]
I'd just like to point out that Blazinghand is calling out people for giving their opinions. I guess if it's not groundbreaking then it's fluff. While I agree with you that just posting a question isn't enough, giving an opinion that agrees with others shouldn't be considered not participating.
If we're going to win, the town needs to work together and discouraging newer townies to post by slapping them around when they do is probably not the right answer.
Well you could say blazinghand is coming off aggressive. However honestly i think its just scum hunting. You should be aggressive and state your opinion if you think someone is scum. And remember just because someones new doesn't mean there town. You could be new and still draw mafia. I honestly am not sure how to read BKEXE hes obviously new. But is he a newbie townie or a newbie mafia. On December 04 2011 13:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys!
Great to be joining. I think that when we vote we should make sure people did not mispeak.
I think that we all need to figure out what we want to do as a group.
What do you think? This was his first post and while there was alot of discussion going on in the thread he just posts this. Not even commentating on what was going on in the thread. Then talking about what we need to do as a group. When we already were talking about policy lynches. I would not straight out call him scum at this point. I just dont see him as being pro-town I didn't think Blazing was trying to do anything but scum hunt. However, I don't fully agree with his methods. Creating a contentious atmosphere in a game full of newbies who are likely intimidated is probably not the best way to get the town working together. Did it get me to post more, sure. Will it everyone else? I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not sure browbeating everyone into posting is going to help us figure out the scum lurkers over the town lurkers. I don't think that asking people to post is too much to ask. I see voting them (given the more than 40 hours till deadline) as an easy way to prod them into saying something. It's not as if the vote can't be removed once they post. I just think it's dangerous and is how bandwagons get started, of course at some point someone is going to have to start voting on someone I just don't want another new player coming in and seeing ##votewhoever a couple of times while trying to catch up and think that obviously that must be the person to vote for. As long as the rest of us are careful to not let the bandwagon get going, then I'm fine with whatever. It is just really easy to let one person make the decisions through sure force of personality or constantly posting ( I would think in a newbie game especially) by getting a ball rolling. As long as we're vigilant and step i and say, "Hold the fuck on that doesn't make sense" then I'm fine with whoever doing whatever they think will help the town win. Just like I think I've been doing the last few posts with Blaze. I completely agree here. We have voices of moderation in this town, obviously - I don't think it'll be easy to get incorrect bandwagons started given that we have some very vocal posters that are not necessarily willing to lynch on a whim (you being one of them). While one person can make decisions through personality (Palmar in 46 springs to mind), I feel like we've got a pretty vocal group that is able to balance each other out leading the town right now. If someone new steps in and votes blindly, I don't think it's out of line to ask them to justify their vote - the grou pthat we have right now will probably do a good job of discouraging sheeping, from what I've seen so far. Agreed on the above. However I want you guys to be very careful not to be too trusting. Do not assume the mafia will just be the lurkers posting 1 liners. It wouldn't suprise me if we have a scum member in this "voices of moderation" group, as you call it. All I'm saying is don't trust anyone, and use your heads. Oh, absolutely. While I think that anyone who is willing to stick their neck out and be vocal about a given player is less likely to be mafia (as mafia has no interest in contributing to constructive discussion), I definitely agree that leading the town down an incorrect path is certainly a viable strategy and one that the mafia may be employing here. That said, there's nothing in the posts from any of our active posters so far that screams "scum" to me - and so far our policy decisions are furthering a town agenda, IMO. You are the number one poster quantitywise in this thread, you are also one of those who have voted early. You are also perhaps the one I consider to be most likely (as of now) to get a bandwagon started on someone (either as number one voter or two). Based on that, my question is: Are you trying to give yourself an alibi with the statement above? No. I feel like you missed my intent with wording here. I was referring to the people that would defend other people against bandwagons (hence the discussion about voices of moderation that you quoted). I guess it's kinda WIFOM, but I feel like it's less likely for scum to vocally defend other scum when a bandwagon gets started, since they would tend to be under scrutiny if the lynch goes through.
The tactic you're referring to is also known as "Bussing" (as in, to throw your ally under a bus). http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing
However, It's probably not worth it for mafia to bus on the first day-- only if they're backed into a weird spot.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 05 2011 08:04 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 06:56 jaybrundage wrote:
And tunkeg i would like your response to my reads heck. I would like everyones feed back. lets get some discussion going Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 06:25 jaybrundage wrote:My reads so far Adam4167- Ok so far i have a scum read on adam I you can see in my last post why click He just comes off happy to stay off the radar I dont like how he is going about his game. Just posting ot barely keep up. And in general comes off apathetic. He says hes a bored townie but i think it could be a lurking mafia BByte- He has posted but not alot he seems content to just respond to people. He did comment about breadcrumbs which is true. Its funny because in my game of Mini Mafia X WBG claimed a blue role and because he breadcrumbed it people beleived him. He did post his reads on people which is good. I would like to see more posting from him. My question is what do you think of adam Bbyte . Blazinghand- Blazinghand has been the biggest posting factor atm. Trying to keep people from lurking and in general trying to generate discussion. While it may not be kosher its seems like its working great. People have responded to his prods. My biggest concern is if he was mafia he would be doing a terrific job. I agree that he has been very pro town. But remember guys putting to much trust in someone is always a mistake. So be wary BroodKingEXE- Ok so far i posted a little to nothing. I gave my read on him before. clickerz Well i said previously that he gave off a non pro-town vibe off. I have to disagree now. Rereading his posts I just think hes just new town. Well he can be a bit hard to read i still think hes just a newbie that doesnt know whats scummy and whats townlike. However Regardless We do need to see some posts from you about what you think about other players. If you continue to post like you are you are prolly gonna get lynched. So post your content. If its wrong is not what matters what matters is that you gave your opinion. ElectricBlack- Ok so far ElectricBlack hasnt posted much so far. His last post was pretty good containing content about the lynching policies. His respond to BH and about how he though BH was doing a decent job of making discussion. I would really would like to get your reads on the town tho. He does bring up a good point while BH is prolly town we can completly rule anyone out as scum. Establishing thread presence is a good think for both townies and mafia to do. But again i would like you reads. So far i have a null read ey215- Has posted alot. Mostly because of the arguement between him and and BH. BH called him out for a no content post ey responded by saying BH was making baseless accusations. And it escalated from there. Veli was trying to bring the heat down a bit (good by him). But eventually they decided to just settle things, ey defended himself well. Although to be honest im not sure of his alignment as far. He could be mafia who just did a great job defending himself or a townie who made sure that BH is not going to unchecked. Im going to keep my eye on him. Grackaroni- So far he has posted his reads and gave a good bit of content. Giving his reads and trying to keep everyone on the same page He mentioned that he agrees with hassybaby about not making straight up accusations like Tunkeg did so early in the game when people havent posted alot. Will i dont really agree with this. I think coming out with your town reads is always good. Premature sometimes but good. I do agree with his case on Adam tho so far hes still the scummiest in my book. So far i got a pretty good town read on him. Hassybaby- Ok so Hassybaby got outright accused of mafia with out even posting. Maybe we should go with people guts and just lynch him lol. Well his first post comes out and talks about the LaL policy. He mentions that we should not just lynch a lurker or liar if we have a good read on someone. I think that we all agreed on this. He then talks about how he doesnt like Tunkeg accusations However i mentioned before i dont think It is the wrong thing to do to put your reads out there. I personally like waiting for everyone to post but regardless. He then tells Tunkeg that He is accusing people to much. I still disagree with this. Tunkeg is generating discussion. I honestly think aggressive scum hunting is completely fine. I don't agree with him on his points. Weather he is scum or not is hard to tell i would like his reads before jumping to conclusions Tunkeg- Ok So i have mixed feelings on Tunkeg First off he comes out with his alignment posts and calls out a nonposter and me as being scum. Honeslty i think you should let people post before calling them mafia lol. I do like how he is poking and generating discussion. While i think his biggest disappointment thing was still stupid which he mentions as well. Hassy mentions that he thinks tunkeg is accusing to many people early in the game. But i think that while Tunkeg has said somethings that i dont neccesary agree with i do think its furthing a town agenda. I do think hes coming off protown even if his accusations are not always right. Tunkeg what d Velinath- Well as far i see Veli as being at townie. he talks about the policies a good bit Actually alot but that what the current conversation was about. he kind of gets on BKEXE case. Which i kinda did at the start as well Its really hard to read BKEXE but i still do think hes a townie. And then he gives his reads alot of them were null reads but it is still hard to place alignments on people this early in the game. I do find his amount of posting comforting tho. Makes it a bit easier to disguish his alignment. xsksc- Ok so i like his first post. It pretty much generated the discussion we had on policy lynches and so forth it was good to get out of the way. He mentions posts about breadcrumbs not proving blues which i agree with. talks about policies a good bit. and then tell BH to not be trigger happy. Its kinda funny that everyone gave an opinion on BH. Again aggressive scumhunting is good imo and making people post is great. He got called out on not scum hunting. Which i kinda agree with. he started the conversation about lynching talked about that for a while and then goes and doesnt give much of his reads or even analyzes any posts. I want to see his reads but im leaning scummy xtfftc- Well so far i dont really agree with his policy posts. I do think lynch all liars is a fine policy. He mentions that last minute lynches are a bad thing and i have to agree. he strongly agrees that everyone should post regardless of how we get them to post so he agrees with BH method. He calls out Ey as his strongest mafia read tho. Ill have to go over ey's posts again. As my read was no where near strong on Ey. He also mentions that While people can buddy up for instance BH and Veli that they can often be town and posts an example Syllogism and Sandroba. I do agree that both. So far a null read. I would like to see more of your reads tho Well thats what i got so far plz everyone tell me what yall think this took fucking forever thank god for filters tho. Overall a good post, I agree on most of your reads. But my comments are: Adam: I was also tipping abit against scum on Adam, because of his lurking ways, but he is the only one who have been saying anti-town on Blazinghand, and I would think scum would not go after Blazinghand, but go for more easier targets.
Although I don't understand how Adam thinks I'm anti-town, disagreeing with me doesn't automatically make him anti-town. What makes him anti-town is the lack of posting, which I hope he will rectify.
Also, if scum want to go after me, there's a much easier way than trying to get me lynched 
On December 05 2011 06:25 jaybrundage wrote:
Blazinghand-
Blazinghand has been the biggest posting factor atm. Trying to keep people from lurking and in general trying to generate discussion. While it may not be kosher its seems like its working great. People have responded to his prods. My biggest concern is if he was mafia he would be doing a terrific job. I agree that he has been very pro town. But remember guys putting to much trust in someone is always a mistake. So be wary
Don't trust me. Trust my analysis, and my actions. If I do stuff that's bad, say so. If I do stuff that's good, say so. Every statement I make should be evaluated individually for accuracy, as with everyone else. I'm a pro town player, and I know I'm town, but there's no way for you to know that.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Well, Hassybaby has finally gone from no posts to "having posts" so I can, at last, change my vote to a more useful target.
Adam4167, in a game full of unimpressive players you have truly failed to impress. I voted you and your immediate response was a thinly-veiled OMGUS. If you're mafia, I'm going to take this chance to get rid of you. If you're a townie, you're so utterly useless I couldn't imagine you contributing.
You've had your 6 hours. Hell, you've had your SEVEN hours, because I'm a nice guy. But the clock's ticking, and I don't have time for some last minute voting BS.
Try to redeem yourself. I'll be checking in constantly from now until the voting deadline, but I doubt we'll find someone scummier and/or less useful than you in that time.
It's really a shame; there are other people who are kinda suspicious, but you're just so atrociously bad that I can't afford to stay my hand any longer.
##Unvote Hassybaby
##Vote Adam4167
Come at me bro.
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