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sandroba is a bad candidate because he tends to get lazy. If he starts to post half arsed reads then we can't know anything about him. He is misleading people by saying that he is transparent. I'm not so much afraid of him regarding his unlynchability.
Palmar is a bad candidate because he is downplaying his scum abilities way too hard. I posted a list of games where he was mafia and he had won them all. Nobody even commented on this. Also I think it's weird that he's picked up so much support already, but maybe this is because he's been extremely active. This activity doesn't say anything about his alignment. It has mostly been answering questions with one liners, which I strongly oppose, but it gives him a very nice thread presence and will probably convince quite a few newbies that it makes him more town, and a bit of commenting on plans. I recommend not voting Palmar into office but I think it is inevitable at this point.
BloodyC0bbler is a guy I have never played with. I have no idea about him but I heard that he's pretty fucking good at this game, both as scum and as town and this makes me uneasy. Let him catch scum before we trust him too much. I think his recent posts need some rereading but I'm not gonna do that right now.
kitaman27 has a pretty good point in how he's town because he has no votes rofl.
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What I mean is, after you getting pressured and looking flustered and unfocused in responding to the accusations of scumminess; your withdrawal and general non-responsiveness do not speak much of you being a townie. Same thing with youngminii, I expect him to fight out the accusations of being a bad guy considering that he's putting out his neck already.
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What the hell is a cop-out? Is that some sort of stupid breadcrumbing soft role claim or whatever. Because then I have no idea.
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Rofl, I had no votes. I could just not have withdrawed but getting clarity about this is in townie interest. I responded to the accusations and I'm not expecting them to end just because I am dropping out of the mayor race, I'm actually kinda expecting that I'll keep up my day1 lynch streak. Sucks but whatever.
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okay since i think im getting subbed in soon someone needs to tell me who the fuck is good at mafia since i dont know almost any of these people
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On November 25 2011 18:04 annul wrote:
okay since i think im getting subbed in soon someone needs to tell me who the fuck is good at mafia since i dont know almost any of these people
Read the god damn thread. People touch on that subject sporadically.
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On November 25 2011 01:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Things seem to have gotten interesting right off the bat,but I guess that is to be expected.
be thankful im not in the game starting on day 0
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On November 25 2011 08:38 Drazerk wrote:
sinani206 your a bad player.
You have no right to call anyone bad. You even fucking tried to claim bad as defense last game we played.
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On November 25 2011 18:04 annul wrote:
okay since i think im getting subbed in soon someone needs to tell me who the fuck is good at mafia since i dont know almost any of these people
Me, Syllogism, Sandroba, BC, Kita, Deconduo, WBG, Jackal and a few others
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On November 25 2011 17:55 prplhz wrote:
What the hell is a cop-out? Is that some sort of stupid breadcrumbing soft role claim or whatever. Because then I have no idea.
a cop-out is an excuse. You make a cop-out when you just kinda wiggle away from something with little to no explanation and you take no responsibility for the action or expectation you are supposed to meet.
So for example I could cop-out of taking out the garbage by saying my leg hurts. It's a dumb excuse to absolve myself of responsibility.
On November 25 2011 17:58 prplhz wrote:
Rofl, I had no votes. I could just not have withdrawed but getting clarity about this is in townie interest. I responded to the accusations and I'm not expecting them to end just because I am dropping out of the mayor race, I'm actually kinda expecting that I'll keep up my day1 lynch streak. Sucks but whatever.
you don't have a day 1 lynch streak.
I really doubt you'll be lynched day 1 today anyway, since the mayor should at least be someone who is semi-competent. If you're scum you'll just have to die later.
You should probably put some more effort into actually appearing like a townie though, maybe then you won't get lynched (regardless of alignment)
On November 25 2011 10:28 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 10:15 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 10:13 Jackal58 wrote:On November 25 2011 10:09 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 10:06 Jackal58 wrote:On November 25 2011 09:25 GreYMisT wrote:On November 25 2011 09:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 09:21 GreYMisT wrote:On November 25 2011 09:11 wherebugsgo wrote:
Greymist what do you think of sandro/palmar/youngminii? Of all the people you mentioned, I am the least susicious of sandroba. His posts are all very honest attempts to bring order into the thread, and ask people to use logic. Palmar is a null read at the moment for me. His campain has a lot of "im bad at scum, im good at town, therefore elect me because you'll be able to tell if im town or not." someone has already pointed out that he actually is pretty good at scum, and i think sandro also said that palmar can scumhunt just as well without mayor. Youngminii I am highly suspicious of atm. He fights hard against palmar's mayorhood, but then backtracks and says he will elect him mayor if he will lynch BC? if you really dont want palmar in office that bad, you dont just cave in to get an easy lynch on someone. More analysis to come as the day goes on, did that answer your question though WBG? Youngminii is the one who pointed out Palmar is good at scum, which is precisely why I don't think the attack on Palmar is worth listening to. But yeah, that answers it well, and I like your answers. Im glad you like them, i wrote them specially for you. On topic: The fact that it was youngminii who pointed out that palmar was scum serves to increase my suspicions of him. why point that out if you are willing to elect him based on who he will lynch? Umm unless I've missed something YM never actually said that. He said Palmar's scum play was too good to risk electing him. Not quite the same thing as calling Palmar scum. But you're okay with that, when YM did call for Palmar to die? I'm neither pro nor con Palmar atm. I'm merely pointing out a distortion. You OK with that? Do you see the problem with YM calling for Palmar's death despite never explicitly saying he thinks he's scum? Apparently not as big a problem as you seem too.
It's a behavioral contradiction, is it not?
It's not explicit, but certainly it's really weird. YM does nothing but slander Palmar and says he wants him dead, regardless of alignment, but never explicitly calls him scum. That's his excuse for what....trashing his campaign?
"I want you dead, but I never actually said that you're scum. But I still want you dead. Even though I didn't say you're scum."
What kind of shitty reasoning is that?
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Okay, prplhz is a really scummy read for me now, based on that withdrawal. It comes across as scum trying to make mayor, realizing his approach is coming off as slightly scummy, then trying to duck down before the pressure can get too much. He's also throwing support to Greywind, who Town in that position would defend his arguments instead of bailing that easily.
My read on YM is that he's a total asshat whose heart is in the right place. No way he'd be this aggressive out of the gate as scum; he's risking a lynching just due to being such a distraction, and he's going to get DT checked at the very least, and I just can't believe that scum with half a brain would play that way. I think he might be worth a vigilante hit early on if he can't contribute to the discussion instead of just pointing fingers all over the place, but I don't think he's one of the bad guys.
As for the mayoral campaign... I still feel like I'm waiting for a candidate who appeals to me. BC's mass DT checks early game seem like a flawed plan for reasons that have been pointed out already. My reasons for withdrawing my vote from Palmar still stand, but I'm not convinced by anyone else that they've got a reasonable plan that doesn't just rely on their generally being awesome at this game (which I just don't have the time to verify by reading hundreds of pages of old games).
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Can someone actually point out why BC's DT plan is bad?
All I hear is that it is bad, but no one says why.
It's mind-boggling how one opinion just spreads like wildfire with no actual supportive reasoning.
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On November 25 2011 17:54 prplhz wrote:
sandroba is a bad candidate because he tends to get lazy. If he starts to post half arsed reads then we can't know anything about him. He is misleading people by saying that he is transparent. I'm not so much afraid of him regarding his unlynchability.
Palmar is a bad candidate because he is downplaying his scum abilities way too hard. I posted a list of games where he was mafia and he had won them all. Nobody even commented on this. Also I think it's weird that he's picked up so much support already, but maybe this is because he's been extremely active. This activity doesn't say anything about his alignment. It has mostly been answering questions with one liners, which I strongly oppose, but it gives him a very nice thread presence and will probably convince quite a few newbies that it makes him more town, and a bit of commenting on plans. I recommend not voting Palmar into office but I think it is inevitable at this point.
BloodyC0bbler is a guy I have never played with. I have no idea about him but I heard that he's pretty fucking good at this game, both as scum and as town and this makes me uneasy. Let him catch scum before we trust him too much. I think his recent posts need some rereading but I'm not gonna do that right now.
kitaman27 has a pretty good point in how he's town because he has no votes rofl.
All you're advocating is not selecting a veteran into office. Which is a bad idea. Here's why we should only be considering the top players in the game for the election:
New/Bad town players will be running their elections completely on their own, while New/Bad scum players will have the support and guidance of their experienced mafia partners. The only people who can successfully run a campaign alone in an 80 people game are people with reputation, confidence, activity and experience enough to stand out on their own.
As for your other argument, sure, apparently I win a lot as scum (although tbf, I got lynched in 3 of the games I won), but that doesn't change the fact that you should get an idea on how I'm playing through the plethora of posts I've made so far in the game. My goal was simply to post enough so people could get a good read on me day one.
About BC, he's pretty fucking good. And he's like a proper vet, he's been around for ages.
And your point about kitaman27 is bad logic and invalid.
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On November 25 2011 18:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Can someone actually point out why BC's DT plan is bad?
All I hear is that it is bad, but no one says why.
It's mind-boggling how one opinion just spreads like wildfire with no actual supportive reasoning.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12428066
And read the conversation from there.
It's not terrible, but it's hardly worth it over the alternative.
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this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit.
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Yeah I just finished reading that after I finished that post. I was reading backward into the thread lol.
I'll address the plan stuff in detail at the end of this post, as I actually have a solution to some of the concerns. However, it requires that we get around 5-10 good scumreads by the end of today. So, I will start with that.
I have four decent scumreads already.
#1 is youngminii. I've already stated why he is scummy, look into my filter if you desire a reiteration. If anyone has questions, please ask. If he ends up being the day 1 lynch then obviously we can't use him in this plan, but if not I think he should be in there.
#2 is Erandorr.
Erandorr is scummy because he has done nothing to push his mayoral candidacy. He said, in his campaign post, that he would be active and transparent. He has been neither; he has not been playing his "new style," he's been gone this entire time. Beyond that first post, he's done nothing. Good bet for this plan, IMO.
#3 is Blind_Rawr. He showed up, said "things are getting interesting really fast" and then was gone. He was enthusiastic to play but he's been completely absent. He's done nothing. Good bet for a shot n1, and I bet even a lurker vig could shoot him if he's still relatively inactive by then.
#4 is prplhz. His mayoral candidacy was bad, as people have pointed out already (primarily supersoft.) It was aimed at minimizing mistakes, something that generally only scum want to do. Prpl knows this well himself, he's not super dumb. He's been getting better and more confident recently too, so I really doubt he would actually consciously push that as town. I think he's more likely to be scum than town at this point.
My Addendum to BC's Plan:
Optimally, we get like 4-6 more scumreads so that we can get a good list of around 8-10 people we want dead. Indeed, they don't all have to be checked n1. Some can be checked n1, some can be checked n2.
Essentially, the way I imagine it working is like this:
Step 1: We assign each player on the list of potential scum a number.
Let's imagine that our list is this:
1. youngminii
2. prplhz
3. Erandorr
4. Blind_Rawr
So, what we do is this: any DT who accepts the plan who is in the top 1/4 of players will check youngminii. This would be any DT in this list:
+ Show Spoiler +1.) Erandorr
2.) Tyrran
3.) kitaman27
4.) sandroba
5.) bonifaceviii
6.) Kurumi
7.) BLinD-RawR
8.) tnkted
9.) GreYMisT
10.) Serejai
11.) Toadesstern
12.) tube
13.) redFF
14.) Vain
15.) eezyBash
16.) Mattchew
17.) Jackal58
18.) Belial-
19.) Palmar
20.) MrZentor
Step 2: Coordinate the DTs on n1 and n2
Any DT who is in the second quarter will check #2, prplhz. So, that means, any DT in this list:
+ Show Spoiler +21.) Risen
22.) Nokarot
23,) risk.nuke
24.) minus_human
25.) IMABUNNEH
26.) wherebugsgo
27.) dukethegold
28.) iLoveKT
29.) mcht
30.) ohN
31.) The1stNewbie
32.) t3tsubo
33.) cosine
34.) xtfftc
35.) DeadlyPsycho
36.) hyshes
37.) Chanyman
38.) Drazerk
39.) Penke
40.) ey215
And so on.
Statistically it is equally likely for our DTs to be in any one of these lists.
Once we split it 8-10 ways with 8-10 different players, we actually have it even better.
On n1, have all the DTs in the top quarter/fifth flip a coin and pick either player #1 or player #2. Have all the players in the second quarter/fifth flip a coin and pick either #3 or #4, and so on. On n2, have all the DTs pick the other player.
This type of random DT check mechanism makes it incredibly hard for scum to manipulate. All the DTs will be guaranteed two checks, with many of them having both checks flip on day 3. We can even lynch into the list to ensure that at least one player flips by day 3.
Step 3: Coordinate the vigilantes on n2.
We do the same exact thing with the vigges on n2. The vigilantes can't shoot till n2. That's fine. We have them shoot with the same mechanism, into the list of players. Some DTs will hopefully have two flipped targets. Some will have only one, but that's still good. Millers will flip as miller. Scum will flip scum. Most misleading mechanics will be dealt with. Framing will only work for the targets that live, and with this plan most of them should die.
Vigilantes who shoot into the list and their target does not die MUST CLAIM THE SHOT IMMEDIATELY. This means that their target was protected, and in this plan the only people who are protected are scum, since it would be moronic for a town doctor to be protecting into a public list of scumreads.
This plan will optimally give a majority of our DTs their sanity checks by day 3, and it will eliminate most of the players we think are scummy based on analysis. That's really good.
We can also add lurkers to this list and use the lurker vigges as well. We'd have to intersperse them a little more, but it would work similarly to how the DTs would check. If the list is half lurker scummy and half non lurker scummy then the lurker vigges can shoot the lurkies and the regulars can shoot the actives.
Questions, concerns?
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EBWOP:
on blind_rawr, I actually meant a good shot for n2. Vigilantes actually can't shoot n1, I checked the OP while I was writing the post to see if it was possible to direct the vigilantes earlier. It's not, but that's not a huge problem since there are two types of vigilantes and there will hopefully be enough lurkers to shoot.
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On November 25 2011 18:34 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 17:55 prplhz wrote:
What the hell is a cop-out? Is that some sort of stupid breadcrumbing soft role claim or whatever. Because then I have no idea. a cop-out is an excuse. You make a cop-out when you just kinda wiggle away from something with little to no explanation and you take no responsibility for the action or expectation you are supposed to meet. So for example I could cop-out of taking out the garbage by saying my leg hurts. It's a dumb excuse to absolve myself of responsibility. Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 17:58 prplhz wrote:
Rofl, I had no votes. I could just not have withdrawed but getting clarity about this is in townie interest. I responded to the accusations and I'm not expecting them to end just because I am dropping out of the mayor race, I'm actually kinda expecting that I'll keep up my day1 lynch streak. Sucks but whatever. you don't have a day 1 lynch streak. I really doubt you'll be lynched day 1 today anyway, since the mayor should at least be someone who is semi-competent. If you're scum you'll just have to die later. You should probably put some more effort into actually appearing like a townie though, maybe then you won't get lynched (regardless of alignment) Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 10:28 Jackal58 wrote:On November 25 2011 10:15 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 10:13 Jackal58 wrote:On November 25 2011 10:09 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 10:06 Jackal58 wrote:On November 25 2011 09:25 GreYMisT wrote:On November 25 2011 09:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 25 2011 09:21 GreYMisT wrote:On November 25 2011 09:11 wherebugsgo wrote:
Greymist what do you think of sandro/palmar/youngminii? Of all the people you mentioned, I am the least susicious of sandroba. His posts are all very honest attempts to bring order into the thread, and ask people to use logic. Palmar is a null read at the moment for me. His campain has a lot of "im bad at scum, im good at town, therefore elect me because you'll be able to tell if im town or not." someone has already pointed out that he actually is pretty good at scum, and i think sandro also said that palmar can scumhunt just as well without mayor. Youngminii I am highly suspicious of atm. He fights hard against palmar's mayorhood, but then backtracks and says he will elect him mayor if he will lynch BC? if you really dont want palmar in office that bad, you dont just cave in to get an easy lynch on someone. More analysis to come as the day goes on, did that answer your question though WBG? Youngminii is the one who pointed out Palmar is good at scum, which is precisely why I don't think the attack on Palmar is worth listening to. But yeah, that answers it well, and I like your answers. Im glad you like them, i wrote them specially for you. On topic: The fact that it was youngminii who pointed out that palmar was scum serves to increase my suspicions of him. why point that out if you are willing to elect him based on who he will lynch? Umm unless I've missed something YM never actually said that. He said Palmar's scum play was too good to risk electing him. Not quite the same thing as calling Palmar scum. But you're okay with that, when YM did call for Palmar to die? I'm neither pro nor con Palmar atm. I'm merely pointing out a distortion. You OK with that? Do you see the problem with YM calling for Palmar's death despite never explicitly saying he thinks he's scum? Apparently not as big a problem as you seem too. It's a behavioral contradiction, is it not? It's not explicit, but certainly it's really weird. YM does nothing but slander Palmar and says he wants him dead, regardless of alignment, but never explicitly calls him scum. That's his excuse for what....trashing his campaign? "I want you dead, but I never actually said that you're scum. But I still want you dead. Even though I didn't say you're scum." What kind of shitty reasoning is that?
prplhz was nearly lynched in LOTR if I hadn't stepped in and breadcrumbed (very poorly at that) that he was a masoned townie. He doesn't push too actively against those who oppose/slander him, and just lets them take the forum to proclaim how he's scummy (because being bad at defending himself IMO is a trait of his) and deserves to get hung.
His play hasn't been helpful for town; he wanted votes when he could have been steering it to people with a better idea of how to use the power to be given to them. He fucks up his defense by just withdrawing instead of presenting a clear alternative away from Sand/Palmar's exhortations via veterancy and BloodyC0bbler's planning (which though not very good, is at least A PLAN with some thought put into it). He's going the noob town route when he obviously should be playing damn better than that (by at least learning from LOTR).
Seriously, why make the same mistakes from then to here?
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palmar, will you kill erandorr if you're elected?
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EPT
