On April 11 2011 03:34 GMarshal wrote: Alright protact I see you points, I'm not going to vote for you, but I won't actively oppose you either. I do not think you have the town's best interests at heart and I think that your whole "I'm in it for the glory" spiel is an attempt to manipulate the town. But you *are* one of the best analysts around, and I wouldn't object to having you by my side as a pardoner, assuming you actually wanted to help the town. Frankly I'm torn so I think it best to let the town choose
Regarding my "I'll lynch the most inactive player" I think I'm going to redact that to "I'll lynch the player who I feel is lurking the most" by lurking I mean posting content-less posts while trying to appear pro town. Is that ok with everyone? Or would you guys prefer if I just hit the most inactive person?
Mayor should take a stand. If you "do not think he has the town's best interest at heart", then you should oppose him. You're trying to make sure you don't upset anyone, rather than trying to lead.
On April 11 2011 03:45 GMarshal wrote: oh, and kita, since Chaoser retracted his run for pardoner I guess I can make you my running mate ##Vote: Kitaman27
Glad to get some support.
Another lurker that should be pressured is Lemonwalrus. He lurked as scum in Insane 2 and just a few days ago he was talking about how excited he was to play. Now that the game has started, he doesn't have a single post of content.
DarthThienAn also has zero posts. He is a veteran and I would like an explanation.
It should also be noted that mafia wants an assassin in office. Think about all the unnecessary distraction and chaos it would cause. Focus will be put on whether or not to lynch our pardoner when he starts acting up, rather than hunting scum.
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote: Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill
On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.
Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.
No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.
I agree with this, and want to point out that one way to tell the difference between mafia and assassins is that mafia know each other and assassins only know themselves. So while both will want to avoid notice and will seem anti-town, the mafia will be the ones who seem to have extra information that they are hiding.
On April 10 2011 04:03 M0nsterChef wrote: I'm also in favour of a strong analyst over a strong leader, simply because it should help achieve the final goal of hunting mafia. Keeping the town focused, and applying pressure to scum can all be done by careful and well thought out analysis.
I'm not even sure what benefits there are to having a 'leader' be mayor over an analysis, but I guess I'm not even 100% sure what being a strong leader in this game means. Seems to me that strong analysis is going to lead town much better than any dedicated leader will.
Alignment should be the main focus. I would much rather have a mayor who I believe to be town, than a mayor who I believe to be good leader or analyzer. Obviously both would be preferable though.
This, I utterly and completely agree with this, those roles are far too powerful to risk in the hands of scum. Whoever is running better be really, really, obviously town, or they probably wont have my vote.
On April 10 2011 04:49 Kavdragon wrote: Kitaman: I understand that electing someone who is clearly town is important and i completely agree
On April 10 2011 19:57 Robellicose wrote: I agree with the many people who have argued against protact for mayor.
On April 11 2011 kitaman27 wrote:No it doesn't. Protract could still be scum. For those who say that there is no way he would take that kind of risk, there are 8 scum. It could be a high risk, high reward kind of situation. Either way, as mayor he would not have the towns best intentions at mind, which is something you shouldn't be supporting.
I agree with this. When protract doesnt get elected if he dies night 1 there is no real harm to us. Its a side game. It would be nice to have the extra kp's but is it worth it if a mafia gets into mayor or pardoner? NO
On April 11 2011 03:21 Lanaia wrote: Also, I agree with Kita on the Protact issue, really.
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote: Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill
On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.
Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.
No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.
On April 11 2011 05:26 Pandain wrote: Also wtf is with this bias against me? Seriously? I'm a good analyzer. When I'm not goofing off, I get shit down. Shit gets real when Pandain's in the house.
I survived Insane Mafia 1 through constant suspicion and poking.
Why are you using a game where you were godfather to convince people we should elect you. Are you serious? -_-
On April 11 2011 05:30 DoctorHelvetica wrote: so that we can indefinitely protect the third party assassin and waste our time talking about him while the scum manipulate us duh
are you scum redFF? that's the only reason you wouldn't think it's a good idea
So we can protect someone who will give us: 1.DT results. 2.Dt results again(me) 3.Valuable scum hunting ability.
Furthermore for the love of god why don't you start talking about who's mafia? Personally anyone who says they have a strong read day 1 is pretty dumb, given its day 1!
What's more important than deciding the mayor right now? Especially if he could be an assassin!
The fact that you are discouraging day one scum hunting concerns me. Even if it is unlikely to catch a day one lynch, doesn't mean we shouldn't pressure. Right when protract achieves his win condition, he is removed from the game....do we really want to have our mayor disappear mid-game?
On April 11 2011 06:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: so vote for me and put protact in as pardoner so we can at least force him to use his powers for us without wasting a significant role on him imo
we can't "force" him to do anything without hurting the town... we've gone through this, the only conceivable plan of forcing him to do anything wastes far too many town resources. We can *hope* he does what he says he will, and I'm not voting based on *hope*.
Either way, I'm done arguing about pro.
I think if he is at least put up as pardoner then we will shut up about him at least. As long as he agrees to use his check on our whim I don't see the problem with that.
No, quite the opposite. If we put him as pardoner, he will be scrutinized and distract the town for the first half of the game. The real way for us to stop talking about him is to not elect him and let him get night killed by the other assassins.
On April 11 2011 04:51 The_Roist wrote: I've never seen a game get so worked up over a ninja/witch hunt before. Never one that the town has won anyway...
We always brawl on day 1.
Do you guys? Its my first time playing Mafia with TL, you guys are far more...aggressive? Then the guys i'm used to playing with.
On April 11 2011 06:32 redFF wrote: We need people who are obviously not going to be elected to either do a large post to cement their bid for mayor with solid reasoning or to withdraw their bids.
It seems like the only people have have a chance at winning all fit this description. Do you care to call anyone out or elaborate your thoughts?
It's more for later on in the mayoral race when there are people who still only have 1-2 votes. Kitaman hasn't really had any strong support so far and i haven't really see him argue for his candidacy.
I'll happily argue anything you want for my candidacy. The fact that I'm not getting support shows that the mafia has no interest in backing me. Why would they want someone who is pro-town, when they could elect an assasson or someone like DrH who is always the center of attention.
To summarize campaign for pardoner so far:
-We should prioritize pro-towness as our biggest reason for voting for mayor.
-I consider myself a pro-town player. With the exception of my single scum game, there have been more than a couple votes against me over a 10+ game period. When I'm town, I'm almost never in the lynch discussion and that's something you want with your elected officials. In addition, I'm not afraid to speak my mind and I've proved from past games that I'm not one to suddenly go inactive for days at a time.
-I will argue to sway the lynch against innocents so a pardon is not even necessary. I will only use my pardon in obvious bandwagon situations. I do not believe the pardon should be used on a whim, as we valuable information to analyze.
-I am completely against an assassin in office. The fact that everyone thinks we can manipulate an experienced veteran to do our bidding is not well thought out. He does not have the town's interests at mind and should not be elected. He is getting far too much support, which should concern everyone.
-I've been backed by GMarshal as his running mate, the person who has received the most votes to this point.
I've been backed by GMarshal as his running mate, the person who has received the most votes to this point
Go find another running mate
You dropped out to support the assassin. GMarshal has stated he is against the assassin. You never answered my question from before either: Did you have the idea to run for pardoner during night zero or only after you saw that I was running for the role.
It should also be noted that Protactinium has not quoted a single one of my posts, yet he is responding to everyone else. He has no interest in getting in an argument with the person who is most likely to respond against him.
On April 10 2011 17:02 Protactinium wrote: Wait, not related to the game, but are you saying you're going to report me for smurfing?
Uh... I'm a staff member. I have several known smurfs running around. This is just for Mafia?
Nope, it was just a joke from complaining about your face spam before the game started. Had no actual intention to report a well-known member for doing something that's not against any rules anywhere. Sorry, I suppose it was a little far out there.
On April 10 2011 17:07 chaoser wrote:
On April 10 2011 16:59 DropBear wrote: Hi everyone, just got home. First thing that struck me is how many people are running for mayor.
On April 10 2011 16:02 Protactinium wrote: Unless you actively lynch Assassins (who most likely are going to either keep quiet or try to act overly pro-town) or they are killed by Mafia, I don't complete my mission objective. I don't really care how long it takes: there are 40 people in this game with no extra Mafia KP and no hatters.
Ladies and gents, this is why I am not voting for Protactinium. Should he be elected, the longer he stays in office the more desperate the other assassins will get. They have incentive to kill the bodyguards. What incentive does he have to do anything to help us? We're his shield. It's in his interest to stay til the end and the longer he stays in the more likely townies will die unnecessarily.
I am much more comfortable voting for someone who is useful AND pro-town like chaoser or GMarshal. The back and forth between Kavdragon and DocH is suss and I don't trust either of them enough.
I think it's been covered but assassins acting desperate won't help them win. They have incentive to kill bodyguards yes, but shooting indiscriminately into town isn't going to net them bodyguard kills. It's a 40 man game. They have 3 KP a piece, 1 of which has to be used on an assassin. So really they all have 2 KP apiece to use whichever way they feel like. Aside from hunting other assassins, you really think they're all going to be trying to kill bodyguards which they don't know who is? If anything they'll try to kill each other off first, hope mafia hits bodyguards and then when all the bodyguards are dead, shoot Prot. There's no reason for them to throw their KP away trying to kill BG when they don't know how they are.
This. Assassins that are playing to win are not going to be a threat. Protactinium can't ally with with the Mafia if he can't talk to them, and by BrownBear's ruling so far he can't do that via PM. Being an assassin is still going to be a waiting game, they'll just have a target they can't hit until very late into the game. The ability to pardon grants him no power to reach his own win condition. It's true that we can't force him to hold to his word about using his 2 hammers and 1 rolecheck in our favor, but there's very little reason for him not to. He only needs 1 hammer to win his game. More importantly, if he's ingratiated to play as town while he sits around for days doing nothing then we gain the analysis of a veteran. I think it's worth it.
Suppose you are an assassin. What gives you the best chance to hit the other assassins:
a) Give up two of your kp to town and hope your 1/40 shot hits the other assassins b) Use all three kp to try and hit assassins
This should be pretty obvious. He has little incentive to help town once he actually is elected.
As mayor, he will lynch and vote against assassin suspects. Town does not want this.
As pardoner, he will never pardon.
On April 10 2011 21:17 Barundar wrote: From all the candidates, I'm interested in hearing how you think our pardoner should be used, the way you will be using your mayor role, and your current mafia reads.
I'm still running too for pardoner. I think the role should be used for obvious bandwagons. Others are saying they will make the "tough" choice and save those who they have a feeling might be innocent. Instead, I will try to prevent innocents from receiving the most votes to by lynched in the first place. Seems like common sense.
On April 10 2011 23:16 Jackal58 wrote: Protactinum as mayor pretty much guarantees scum don't get it. Any guarantee that scum doesn't hold those extra votes at end game is a win for town.
No it doesn't. Protract could still be scum. For those who say that there is no way he would take that kind of risk, there are 8 scum. It could be a high risk, high reward kind of situation. Either way, as mayor he would not have the towns best intentions at mind, which is something you shouldn't be supporting.
On April 10 2011 23:21 Jackal58 wrote: No voting thread yet??? Is Bum hosting this? The timing is all fucked up.
##VOTE: Protactinum for mayor
And I don't know how you guys think you're voting for a pardoner. Pardoner is the first loser in the mayor race. Stop voting for a pardoner cause you aren't voting for anybody. That race doesn't exist.
Second most votes gets pardoner. I assume town is competent enough to manage to work it out. Wouldn't it make more sense to give it to someone to wants the role, rather than someone who loses trying to be mayor?
On April 10 2011 20:08 aidnai wrote: Kita is definitely overreacting against Protact. Good DT check right there.
Could you elaborate? I think I've been pretty pro-town so far.
On April 10 2011 20:26 aidnai wrote: BTW kavdragon is a stupid day one lynch. He's a damn good liar, but if anybody had bothered to to behavioural analysis it should have been obvious he was not town last game -_-. He'll be active and a fairly easy read in another day or two.
Plus there's still like a dozen people that haven't even posted yet...
This is a total flip in philosophy from pregame. Siblings sticking up for each other? I might have to keep an eye on you.
It may be overreacting, but this seems like perfect kita logic. I read every single post of PYP3 with excruciating detail, and let's not talk about how kitaman27 played... Cough cough shoot the pretty much confirmed townie that netted a ridiculous number of Mafia multiple times. While he's not being protown he's also not being very anti-town either. Honestly, those types of labels don't really work too well beyond blatant examples for the first day, before anything can be "proven"
Cute, you quotes all my posts and then rather than responding, you reference my worst game in an attempt to discredit me. I must be missing your point because I fail to see how this is an appropriate response to the posts you quoted. Oh wait, you aren't town so that was your intent.
On April 10 2011 17:05 DropBear wrote: I forgot to highlight the bit saying unless you actively lynch assassins, he doesn't win. Basically, he wants us to lynch assassin's for him.
On April 10 2011 16:06 kitaman27 wrote:
On April 10 2011 16:02 Protactinium wrote: I don't need to and I don't care to lynch other Assassins. I shoot them at night with my last bullet.
I stopped reading here. The assassin, whose goal is the kill other assassins, is trying to tell us he doesn't want to lynch assassins.
Good point by Kita. You are going to direct lynches at them, yes you are not. There is pretty blatant contradiction here. More thoughts to follow.
He does win, he doesn't need to lynch assassins to win, he just needs them to all be dead. Whether that's from his own KP, mafia's KP or lynch, doesn't matter. The moment we think he's not playing "pro-town" we can lynch him.
What's to stop him from blackmailing town with the identities of the bodyguards once we decide the time has come? Or maybe the identity of the medic/dt? He certainly wouldn't go down without a fight, plus that's a lynch we should be using on scum, not black.
On April 10 2011 17:11 chaoser wrote: At least he brings two KP and a check to the table. He has no real reason to go against town. There's no way he'll win the assassin game by day 2, not even close. At most he'll win late game. I say we give him pardoner, use his sexy sexy brain and KP/check powers and profit. It'd then be in the mafia's best interest to take out black so that the assassin game can end early and Prot is whisked off. That's good for town cause then they need to focus on black, not green.
Shooting scum does not further his win condition. If he shoots, its going to be because he thinks he is hitting an assassin. He brought up a good point earlier. If town wins, he loses. Why are you defending him so much?
Didn't I already say I was going to use my last bullet to shoot them? I have no reason to lynch them , since it doesn't matter whether they die during the day or night other than the fact that they'll be able to fire off a shot if they're not lynched--and that shot can still hit town, Mafia, or another Assassin.
Of course you have a reason to lynch them. Its part of your win condition to kill other assassins. Why throw away your final shot when you could lynch them? That's an unnecessary risk. Does town really buy this?
You know as well as I know that town will not punish you for carrying out your own agenda. You can pretend to be trying to shoot a scum. but in reality you will be assassin sniping.
On April 11 2011 08:05 Protactinium wrote: If the game were already at LYLO for the town, then I've already lost if I save Mafia. Isn't it obvious? Being elected means allying with the town completely. There's no way and no reason I would change 'allegiances', barring some ridiculous scenario that even I haven't planned for (not going to happen).
Consider a late game situation, in which 1 scum remain. If that scum is lynched you lose. Therefore, you will be 100% against town if they are ever in a position to win. I think this is pretty clear.
Since no one has come out and asked for some reason, How many assassins are there?
On April 11 2011 08:05 Protactinium wrote: It may be overreacting, but this seems like perfect kita logic. I read every single post of PYP3 with excruciating detail, and let's not talk about how kitaman27 played... Cough cough shoot the pretty much confirmed townie that netted a ridiculous number of Mafia multiple times.
On April 11 2011 08:05 Protactinium wrote: I feel like I could say a lot more to you and lecture on and on for hours, but it's not worth it. Also, I didn't respond to you because you weren't worth responding to. This is exactly the same as your obstinate and utterly stupid play in PYP3: you don't see reason buddy.
On April 11 2011 08:05 Protactinium wrote: You are historically not a pro-town player. PYP3 again . Nothing further needed on that. I highly doubt you're able to argue down a bandwagon, and as said before that's not how Pardons are to be used anyway.
Is that going to be your response to everything? If you want to address my play in a game outside the thread then fine, but to bring it up 5 months later and use it as the basis for why you think I'm stupid just because I don't want a black in office is silly.
Since you insist on bringing up PYP3 so much, how did it work out for the town when they decided to ally with the "SK third party"?
chaoser redFF urashimakt
Protactinium loses if town wins.
Let me repeat that.
Protactinium loses if town wins.
This is a point he cannot deny. Therefore we do not want him around for late game. Giving him two bodyguards will likely bring him to late game.
On April 11 2011 11:10 aidnai wrote: Anyway I feel really good about GM being mayor, he's certainly green in my eyes. What surprises me is that kita hasn't gotten any mayoral attention-- his posts have nearly all been on the mark, and though I was thinking he could be black for a while, taking such a strong stand against prot makes him green to me. I'm voting kita.
##Vote kitaman27
This is exceptionally poor reasoning. If kita was black, that would force him to be anti-protact, how could his stance possibly indicate to you that he is not black? at best, it is neutral.[/QUOTE]
If I were black, or red for that matter, I would not want to make myself a target at such an early point in the game. I already know the identity of one assassin leaving only one other assassin left to hunt. I see little reason to draw so much attention to myself. I'm actively opposing a person who claims to have 3 kp at their disposal. That's a pretty big risk to take for a survivor-type role.
On April 11 2011 23:02 kitaman27 wrote: DarthThienAn - Quotes one of Kav's newbie posts to tell us that he agrees and then proceeds to vote for pandain, the fake dt claim.
That's exactly why I voted for him. Low chance of being elected for Mayor, so there's no harm in putting my vote there as a placeholder, like I said in my second post...
If you're going to try to criticize me, at least do it with something credible.
That was a credible criticism. You haven't taken a stand yet.
On April 12 2011 02:25 GMarshal wrote: Oh, and I just realized something, kitaman should be shot by vigis stating night 2 because he is running for pardoner, I just re-read the description and the pardoner is horribly, horribly anti town, it makes the day end on no lynch essentially giving the mafia a free night. I say vigi and not lynch because its too easy a bandwagon to policy lynch someone, it gives us no real information on the lynch.
LOL. So you agree with my policy enough to vote for me and now you are calling for a vig shot? You really are a dirty politician
I ran specifically for pardoner because it is horribly, horribly anti-town. If I win, I guarantee that mafia cannot reach LYLO a day earlier. If you want to address any of my stances so far, then I'm open to discussion, but to call for a vig shot without providing reasoning is scummy.
EPT
