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The assassins are going to turn into the Item Game of Insane 2....
I was scum that game, so what I did, was try to keep everyone focused on the item game and away from actual analysis. I see the same thing starting to happen now, where town is going to latch onto the assassin game and get too distracted from everything else when it should be a non-issue...
Anyways, Why giving out both the names of the bodyguards is not a very good idea:
At their core, the bodyguard and pardoner are supposed to be very powerful roles that we would like to get a hold of and use for the benefit of the town. When used correctly, these roles seem like they'd be more than capable of wreaking havoc on the mafia and bringing town victory.
If no mafia are elected into office, and they are not confident that they can sway the mayor easily, the best course of action for the reds is to kill the mayor/pardoner. In order to do so, they must first kill the two bodyguards. These bodyguards are unrevealed to the town and mafia, so first mafia need to find them as well.
Now, you, Pandain, want to reveal the bodyguards to everyone. Why? To ostensibly put trackers on them in order to catch any assassins/mafia who want to take a shot at the mayor. However, doing this is cringe-worthy to say the least. So why wouldn't it work out? Mafia have four KP, and there are supposedly two other assassins. This means, that if there are no medics, that mafia can kill the two bodyguards as well as the mayor and pardoner in one fell swoop. So, what we'd achieve, is the entire public office dead, traded at the cost of one mafia revealed. The only way to counteract that, would be if we now, IN ADDITION to our trackers, put medic protection on the bodyguards as well. So, you're asking us to focus all of our blue power on two people. But then we just get into a WIFOM spiral where we need to decide to protect either the bodyguards to the detriment of all other pro-town players or other players to the detriment of our bodyguards and mayor/pardoner.
In my opinion, this becomes too convoluted to even work with, when compared to keeping the bodyguards known only to the mayor/pardoner. In other words, a bad idea.
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Can one scum hit more than one person at night when they have to pick who hits who to calculate for trackers?
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My picks for mayor:
Dr.H/Tnkted
Dr. H/Gmarshal
Tnkted/Dr.H
##Vote Dr. Helvetica
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On April 11 2011 06:33 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
My picks for mayor:
Dr.H/Tnkted
Dr. H/Gmarshal
Tnkted/Dr.H
##Vote Dr. Helvetica
Forgot assassin. I'd be willing to let him in as pardoner, but not mayor.
Dr.H/protac
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On April 11 2011 07:32 M0nsterChef wrote:
I read the thread and made a vote based on who I think I deserves the role the most. Am I not allowed to vote?
No, but it looks highly suspicious that you don't post any thoughts/opinions (or anything at all really) since the game has started, and then come in and vote.
What are your thoughts on the current situation?
Why do you like GMarshal the best for mayor?
Why don't you like the other candidates?
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On April 11 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote:Ignoring the running for mayor for a minute (as our main goal *is* killing scum, remember?) I wrote up a nice little PbP on one of my current scum suspects Mr.Wiggles. Each post is in spoilers and my comments are in bold as usual + Show Spoiler +
Don't worry too much, this shouldn't be as active as insane, because, well, Insane was Insane.
Hopefully people won't spam that much in this game, and I'd even like to put in a request that people try to limit their posting unless they have something relevant/meaningful to add to the conversation.
People who just quote others, and say "I agree", or repeat the same things as others have already brought up, are perfect examples of "contributing without contributing", and that's a scum-tell.
You know this is a great way to "contribute without contributing" you state a commonly known scum tell and say no spam please... well, duh. Still I can put this off as directing new players
A new player asked about activity, and I reassured him that insane was a total spam-fest and while on the topic asked that people try not to post excessively unless they have something new or relevant to add. I'm trying to follow my own advice this game as well.
Well this isn't technically night because no one takes actions. That said, there isn't much to talk about because we can't start mayoral campaigns. This means we're limited to mostly talking about general strategy and trying to establish a town policy, like no spam/try to contribute and add to the conversation, and other guidelines we'd like to put into place.
Rehash of basic ideas, check!
People were fighting over whether we should talk Night 0. Night zero isn't really a night phase because of the reasons I stated, so it was silly to be fighting over whether we should talk during it or not, when we could basically use it as a 24-hour extension to Day 1 to get some of the basic and boring discussion out of the way. Well if you're posting your own thoughts, then that's meaningful AND relevant, haha. But 9000 posts of cats in top hats and monocles wouldn't be. And saying "I agree" after every post isn't really contributing. If you want to agree with someone, at least add your own thought process as to why, and give some kind of explanation. That way you can look for mafia trying to make stuff up too.
Spam is bad! No duh, but then again people were posting this kind of nonsense all night 0 so its not indicative
Someone took offense when I asked to not post a ton unless you want to add to the conversation because newer players wouldn't post their ideas and opinions. I told him that as long as they're posting their own thoughts, I would consider that both meaningful and relevant. Even already, we're seeing people who aren't adding their own thoughts and are just hiding behind other people. If you feel the need to post without adding anything, well then don't be surprised when people peg you as scum. My thoughts on inactives:
Don't lynch inactives, lynch lurkers.
I guess it depends on your definition of inactive, but inactive for me, is someone who's not even playing the game, and has little to no posts. For me, the better choice is to pressure lurkers, who come in and post a couple times, then disappear. I think these are the people we should really be afraid of. They're a lot more dangerous, because by maintaining only a slight activity threshold to appease the town, they're easily able to hide amongst the masses. So personally, I'd rather lynch the guy who comes in twice a cycle to post a couple sentences, than Johnny-No-Posts who's not even playing the game.
Lurkers want to hide behind a minimum of activity, inactives aren't even playing. (<--- My Take)
I'm going to watch for people acting like that.
well this *looks* like a contribution, but its a repost of an argument that town agrees on since time immemorial, its like posting "you should build drones" in response to "how do I macro better?"
People get all hot over lynching inactives. I think lynching inactives is a dumb idea. Inactives are just as likely to be bored town not playing than scum. A much better idea is to look for people who post a lot, and then disappear. They're not going to get modkilled, but they're still hiding. It's also funny, because you call my opinion here contributing without contributing, but later when you yourself are debating if you won the mayorship if you should lynch inactives or not, I tell you the exact same thing but with more explanation, and you give me "townie points" for it. Also, I think mafia would be more prone to trying to manipulate the town, whereas assassins would probably leave town be while focusing on finding the other assassins. So if you have two players kind've the same, but one is trying to manipulate the lynches and the other isn't, then you can differentiate them.
an actual point! Yay! ok, nothing more to see here
Posting when I can add something relevant As others have said, I think voting a black in is lose-lose. There's no guarantee he'll do anything to really help us, and then we lose our mayor/pardoner.
something I agree with, fair enough
Also, as far as medicing him goes, I think we can just drop the discussion on that until Day 2. Assassins can't do anything night one, so unless mafia wants to hit him, there's no need to waste a medic on him. If he still wants to negotiate for kills later, then we can do that when he's actually in a position to kill. However, just to add to that quickly, he's actually useless to town if he's not mayor/pardoner, because if he says he's hitting a town chosen target, mafia can just RB him, because he's outed himself publicly. So, we don't want him in office, and he can't help us out of office.
again a really valid point, I have exactly one objection to it, the fact that after concluding that he is useless out of office he still talks about negotiating with the assassin, its an interesting contradiction
It wasn't my idea to negotiate for medic protection with him, and I mention this before I conclude he's useless to town out of office. Most of my posts are somewhat stream of consciousness, if I think of something while writing, I just add it. I don't go back and delete what I've written, because this gives my post more transparency and shows my entire thought process. At the time, others thought we should negotiate medic protection in exchange for kills/check, and I said we could do that later if we needed to, on Day 2. I then concluded though, that when we reach that point, he's not going to be much use to us anyways, because he'll just get RBed. I don't see the contradiction here, unless you're reading my post backwards.
So, overall, I don't think he can help town much, besides giving all the other assassins a non-town target for night 2.
Right now, I'm most comfortable picking either GMarshal or Dr.H for mayor. I've gotten the strongest town reads from them, and they've both shown they're not afraid of trying to look for scum and lead town in the right direction.
Yay!
^ My thoughts.
Don't hit the most inactive, that's stupid. The most inactive is likely not even playing the game, or they're just going to get Modkilled. If we want to do a policy lynch on activity, do it on a lurker. You call a lurker someone contributing without contributing, but with the amount of newer players in the game, that might not be the best deciding factor for day 1. I'd say lynch someone who was really active earlier in the game, like pregame, or night 0, and who has completely disappeared with only a minimum of posts by the end of day 1.
This is a decent point, +1 townie point for it kind sir
This is the same thing I said earlier which you said was contributing without contributing. You contradicted yourself here. How am I lurking? I'm just not rehashing the exact same points as everyone else over and over again. I was going to bring up some of the reasons I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal, but they were already raised by others, so instead of just repeating what's already been said three times I mentioned that protac isn't going to be useful to us at all if he doesn't get elected, so we shouldn't waste medics on him, just leave him for the other assassins to use hits on, keeping them off of town
Alright this is a fair defense of my "lurking" accusation, however in his previous posts he made exactly one good point, that being about the assassin
I've thought of good points concurrently with others, so if someone posts it before me, it behooves me to not just repeat the exact same argument for pride's sake. This is me following my "don't excessively post unless I have something meaningful, new, or relevant to add" guideline. And now that I think of it, there's other assassin, who may or may not be using their KP on the same night, on different or similar targets. So, there's no way to tell if mafia used all four hits or not. Meaning, it's easy for red to use one of their KPs as the "assassin" KP.
I do believe this was already mentioned, neutral read on this post
As far as I know, no one had mentioned that we're not going to be able to tell who's hitting who exactly starting Night 2. Assassin's may or may not hit. Throw in veterans, medics, and roleblocks, and it's going to be very murky if someone was hit by an assassin or by the mafia. Meaning, that if he were red, we wouldn't probably be able to tell by the kills.
The assassins are going to turn into the Item Game of Insane 2....
I was scum that game, so what I did, was try to keep everyone focused on the item game and away from actual analysis. I see the same thing starting to happen now, where town is going to latch onto the assassin game and get too distracted from everything else when it should be a non-issue...
this is a very, very good point and one I agree with, +1 townie point for him
Again, I think we should ignore the assassin game after Day 1, and only deal with it if it becomes necessary to do so. If we do elect protac, then I don't see this happening very easily.
Anyways, Why giving out both the names of the bodyguards is not a very good idea:
At their core, the bodyguard and pardoner are supposed to be very powerful roles that we would like to get a hold of and use for the benefit of the town. When used correctly, these roles seem like they'd be more than capable of wreaking havoc on the mafia and bringing town victory.
yeah, we know this, this is kind of filler
It's meant to give a basis and introduction to the rest of my post, stressing the importance of a strong player using mayor for the benefit of town.
If no mafia are elected into office, and they are not confident that they can sway the mayor easily, the best course of action for the reds is to kill the mayor/pardoner. In order to do so, they must first kill the two bodyguards. These bodyguards are unrevealed to the town and mafia, so first mafia need to find them as well.
again, I think this is obvious
Continuing from my logical premise that the mayor is a powerful role.
Now, you, Pandain, want to reveal the bodyguards to everyone. Why? To ostensibly put trackers on them in order to catch any assassins/mafia who want to take a shot at the mayor. However, doing this is cringe-worthy to say the least. So why wouldn't it work out? Mafia have four KP, and there are supposedly two other assassins. This means, that if there are no medics, that mafia can kill the two bodyguards as well as the mayor and pardoner in one fell swoop. So, what we'd achieve, is the entire public office dead, traded at the cost of one mafia revealed. The only way to counteract that, would be if we now, IN ADDITION to our trackers, put medic protection on the bodyguards as well. So, you're asking us to focus all of our blue power on two people. But then we just get into a WIFOM spiral where we need to decide to protect either the bodyguards to the detriment of all other pro-town players or other players to the detriment of our bodyguards and mayor/pardoner.
This is an actual good point +1 town point
And this is the conclusion I draw from my premises. If I just typed this, it would be somewhat baseless. This is 1+1=2. 2 might seem all exciting, but you need the other side of the equation to give a starting point for my conclusions. This is just how I reason, take my post as a whole.
In my opinion, this becomes too convoluted to even work with, when compared to keeping the bodyguards known only to the mayor/pardoner. In other words, a bad idea. Forgot assassin. I'd be willing to let him in as pardoner, but not mayor.
Dr.H/protac
interesting, Wiggles said "I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal" but now he is ok with a black pardoner... it is noteworthy, and if kav's theory that Pro is actualy red holds true then very, very revealing
Black mayor is bad in my eyes. However, after seeing the arguments in the thread, and protac's own defense of his candidacy, I think that it wouldn't be the worst thing to have him as the pardoner. That said, I listed my choices in order of preference. I only control one vote, so these are just my opinions, I can't pick two people, so if the rest of town wants the assassin, I'd rather he's the pardoner than the mayor. No, but it looks highly suspicious that you don't post any thoughts/opinions (or anything at all really) since the game has started, and then come in and vote.
What are your thoughts on the current situation?
Why do you like GMarshal the best for mayor?
Why don't you like the other candidates?
same questions I ask, after I asked them... slightly scummy, but it could be down to simultaneous posts
Exactly that, you ninja! :p I'm not sure how it's scummy though, the same thing has happened many times in this thread already.
Conclusion: Lurking he adds a total of two new ideas by my count and his best post is the one focused on not exposing the bgs, I'm having a hard time labeling him as anything. Hence I suggest we all keep an eye on him and make him post more, I'm leaning slightly more towards scum than town atm, but I need more to analyze There's my defense, for your benefit.
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On April 11 2011 11:04 kevconsim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 10:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On April 11 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote:Ignoring the running for mayor for a minute (as our main goal *is* killing scum, remember?) I wrote up a nice little PbP on one of my current scum suspects Mr.Wiggles. Each post is in spoilers and my comments are in bold as usual + Show Spoiler +
Don't worry too much, this shouldn't be as active as insane, because, well, Insane was Insane.
Hopefully people won't spam that much in this game, and I'd even like to put in a request that people try to limit their posting unless they have something relevant/meaningful to add to the conversation.
People who just quote others, and say "I agree", or repeat the same things as others have already brought up, are perfect examples of "contributing without contributing", and that's a scum-tell.
You know this is a great way to "contribute without contributing" you state a commonly known scum tell and say no spam please... well, duh. Still I can put this off as directing new players
A new player asked about activity, and I reassured him that insane was a total spam-fest and while on the topic asked that people try not to post excessively unless they have something new or relevant to add. I'm trying to follow my own advice this game as well.
Well this isn't technically night because no one takes actions. That said, there isn't much to talk about because we can't start mayoral campaigns. This means we're limited to mostly talking about general strategy and trying to establish a town policy, like no spam/try to contribute and add to the conversation, and other guidelines we'd like to put into place.
Rehash of basic ideas, check!
People were fighting over whether we should talk Night 0. Night zero isn't really a night phase because of the reasons I stated, so it was silly to be fighting over whether we should talk during it or not, when we could basically use it as a 24-hour extension to Day 1 to get some of the basic and boring discussion out of the way. Well if you're posting your own thoughts, then that's meaningful AND relevant, haha. But 9000 posts of cats in top hats and monocles wouldn't be. And saying "I agree" after every post isn't really contributing. If you want to agree with someone, at least add your own thought process as to why, and give some kind of explanation. That way you can look for mafia trying to make stuff up too.
Spam is bad! No duh, but then again people were posting this kind of nonsense all night 0 so its not indicative
Someone took offense when I asked to not post a ton unless you want to add to the conversation because newer players wouldn't post their ideas and opinions. I told him that as long as they're posting their own thoughts, I would consider that both meaningful and relevant. Even already, we're seeing people who aren't adding their own thoughts and are just hiding behind other people. If you feel the need to post without adding anything, well then don't be surprised when people peg you as scum. My thoughts on inactives:
Don't lynch inactives, lynch lurkers.
I guess it depends on your definition of inactive, but inactive for me, is someone who's not even playing the game, and has little to no posts. For me, the better choice is to pressure lurkers, who come in and post a couple times, then disappear. I think these are the people we should really be afraid of. They're a lot more dangerous, because by maintaining only a slight activity threshold to appease the town, they're easily able to hide amongst the masses. So personally, I'd rather lynch the guy who comes in twice a cycle to post a couple sentences, than Johnny-No-Posts who's not even playing the game.
Lurkers want to hide behind a minimum of activity, inactives aren't even playing. (<--- My Take)
I'm going to watch for people acting like that.
well this *looks* like a contribution, but its a repost of an argument that town agrees on since time immemorial, its like posting "you should build drones" in response to "how do I macro better?"
People get all hot over lynching inactives. I think lynching inactives is a dumb idea. Inactives are just as likely to be bored town not playing than scum. A much better idea is to look for people who post a lot, and then disappear. They're not going to get modkilled, but they're still hiding. It's also funny, because you call my opinion here contributing without contributing, but later when you yourself are debating if you won the mayorship if you should lynch inactives or not, I tell you the exact same thing but with more explanation, and you give me "townie points" for it. Also, I think mafia would be more prone to trying to manipulate the town, whereas assassins would probably leave town be while focusing on finding the other assassins. So if you have two players kind've the same, but one is trying to manipulate the lynches and the other isn't, then you can differentiate them.
an actual point! Yay! ok, nothing more to see here
Posting when I can add something relevant As others have said, I think voting a black in is lose-lose. There's no guarantee he'll do anything to really help us, and then we lose our mayor/pardoner.
something I agree with, fair enough
Also, as far as medicing him goes, I think we can just drop the discussion on that until Day 2. Assassins can't do anything night one, so unless mafia wants to hit him, there's no need to waste a medic on him. If he still wants to negotiate for kills later, then we can do that when he's actually in a position to kill. However, just to add to that quickly, he's actually useless to town if he's not mayor/pardoner, because if he says he's hitting a town chosen target, mafia can just RB him, because he's outed himself publicly. So, we don't want him in office, and he can't help us out of office.
again a really valid point, I have exactly one objection to it, the fact that after concluding that he is useless out of office he still talks about negotiating with the assassin, its an interesting contradiction
It wasn't my idea to negotiate for medic protection with him, and I mention this before I conclude he's useless to town out of office. Most of my posts are somewhat stream of consciousness, if I think of something while writing, I just add it. I don't go back and delete what I've written, because this gives my post more transparency and shows my entire thought process. At the time, others thought we should negotiate medic protection in exchange for kills/check, and I said we could do that later if we needed to, on Day 2. I then concluded though, that when we reach that point, he's not going to be much use to us anyways, because he'll just get RBed. I don't see the contradiction here, unless you're reading my post backwards.
So, overall, I don't think he can help town much, besides giving all the other assassins a non-town target for night 2.
Right now, I'm most comfortable picking either GMarshal or Dr.H for mayor. I've gotten the strongest town reads from them, and they've both shown they're not afraid of trying to look for scum and lead town in the right direction.
Yay!
^ My thoughts.
Don't hit the most inactive, that's stupid. The most inactive is likely not even playing the game, or they're just going to get Modkilled. If we want to do a policy lynch on activity, do it on a lurker. You call a lurker someone contributing without contributing, but with the amount of newer players in the game, that might not be the best deciding factor for day 1. I'd say lynch someone who was really active earlier in the game, like pregame, or night 0, and who has completely disappeared with only a minimum of posts by the end of day 1.
This is a decent point, +1 townie point for it kind sir
This is the same thing I said earlier which you said was contributing without contributing. You contradicted yourself here. How am I lurking? I'm just not rehashing the exact same points as everyone else over and over again. I was going to bring up some of the reasons I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal, but they were already raised by others, so instead of just repeating what's already been said three times I mentioned that protac isn't going to be useful to us at all if he doesn't get elected, so we shouldn't waste medics on him, just leave him for the other assassins to use hits on, keeping them off of town
Alright this is a fair defense of my "lurking" accusation, however in his previous posts he made exactly one good point, that being about the assassin
I've thought of good points concurrently with others, so if someone posts it before me, it behooves me to not just repeat the exact same argument for pride's sake. This is me following my "don't excessively post unless I have something meaningful, new, or relevant to add" guideline. And now that I think of it, there's other assassin, who may or may not be using their KP on the same night, on different or similar targets. So, there's no way to tell if mafia used all four hits or not. Meaning, it's easy for red to use one of their KPs as the "assassin" KP.
I do believe this was already mentioned, neutral read on this post
As far as I know, no one had mentioned that we're not going to be able to tell who's hitting who exactly starting Night 2. Assassin's may or may not hit. Throw in veterans, medics, and roleblocks, and it's going to be very murky if someone was hit by an assassin or by the mafia. Meaning, that if he were red, we wouldn't probably be able to tell by the kills.
The assassins are going to turn into the Item Game of Insane 2....
I was scum that game, so what I did, was try to keep everyone focused on the item game and away from actual analysis. I see the same thing starting to happen now, where town is going to latch onto the assassin game and get too distracted from everything else when it should be a non-issue...
this is a very, very good point and one I agree with, +1 townie point for him
Again, I think we should ignore the assassin game after Day 1, and only deal with it if it becomes necessary to do so. If we do elect protac, then I don't see this happening very easily.
Anyways, Why giving out both the names of the bodyguards is not a very good idea:
At their core, the bodyguard and pardoner are supposed to be very powerful roles that we would like to get a hold of and use for the benefit of the town. When used correctly, these roles seem like they'd be more than capable of wreaking havoc on the mafia and bringing town victory.
yeah, we know this, this is kind of filler
It's meant to give a basis and introduction to the rest of my post, stressing the importance of a strong player using mayor for the benefit of town.
If no mafia are elected into office, and they are not confident that they can sway the mayor easily, the best course of action for the reds is to kill the mayor/pardoner. In order to do so, they must first kill the two bodyguards. These bodyguards are unrevealed to the town and mafia, so first mafia need to find them as well.
again, I think this is obvious
Continuing from my logical premise that the mayor is a powerful role.
Now, you, Pandain, want to reveal the bodyguards to everyone. Why? To ostensibly put trackers on them in order to catch any assassins/mafia who want to take a shot at the mayor. However, doing this is cringe-worthy to say the least. So why wouldn't it work out? Mafia have four KP, and there are supposedly two other assassins. This means, that if there are no medics, that mafia can kill the two bodyguards as well as the mayor and pardoner in one fell swoop. So, what we'd achieve, is the entire public office dead, traded at the cost of one mafia revealed. The only way to counteract that, would be if we now, IN ADDITION to our trackers, put medic protection on the bodyguards as well. So, you're asking us to focus all of our blue power on two people. But then we just get into a WIFOM spiral where we need to decide to protect either the bodyguards to the detriment of all other pro-town players or other players to the detriment of our bodyguards and mayor/pardoner.
This is an actual good point +1 town point
And this is the conclusion I draw from my premises. If I just typed this, it would be somewhat baseless. This is 1+1=2. 2 might seem all exciting, but you need the other side of the equation to give a starting point for my conclusions. This is just how I reason, take my post as a whole.
In my opinion, this becomes too convoluted to even work with, when compared to keeping the bodyguards known only to the mayor/pardoner. In other words, a bad idea. Forgot assassin. I'd be willing to let him in as pardoner, but not mayor.
Dr.H/protac
interesting, Wiggles said "I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal" but now he is ok with a black pardoner... it is noteworthy, and if kav's theory that Pro is actualy red holds true then very, very revealing
Black mayor is bad in my eyes. However, after seeing the arguments in the thread, and protac's own defense of his candidacy, I think that it wouldn't be the worst thing to have him as the pardoner. That said, I listed my choices in order of preference. I only control one vote, so these are just my opinions, I can't pick two people, so if the rest of town wants the assassin, I'd rather he's the pardoner than the mayor. No, but it looks highly suspicious that you don't post any thoughts/opinions (or anything at all really) since the game has started, and then come in and vote.
What are your thoughts on the current situation?
Why do you like GMarshal the best for mayor?
Why don't you like the other candidates?
same questions I ask, after I asked them... slightly scummy, but it could be down to simultaneous posts
Exactly that, you ninja! :p I'm not sure how it's scummy though, the same thing has happened many times in this thread already.
Conclusion: Lurking he adds a total of two new ideas by my count and his best post is the one focused on not exposing the bgs, I'm having a hard time labeling him as anything. Hence I suggest we all keep an eye on him and make him post more, I'm leaning slightly more towards scum than town atm, but I need more to analyze There's my defense, for your benefit. Just wondering who is red? im guessing its red but i just want to make sure before i over think.
My original posts are normal, I made GMarshal's red, and then my responses are in bold. Sorry for not mentioning.
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You said the other scum told him to provide reasons for his vote. While I take it you mean he was told by them privately, and is parroting what his scum team told him, he took it that you meant that GMarshal and I, who asked him questions in the thread, are the scum you're referring to.
A misunderstanding.
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Got home from school so I actually have the time to post some stuff now.
Firstly, FOS RedFF.
You're putting way too much emphasis on the relations between votes and alignment. After a single vote, I don't think it's very telling at all, and isn't really indicative of alignment. So while you might get some useful information from voting patterns down the road, I don't think you'll net the whole scum team by just looking at who's voting for GMarshal. All you're serving to do now is spread fear and confuse people. Also, your tunneling of Monster seems odd to me.
GMarshal I think it's silly to lynch the pardoner - If we want rid of the role completely, try and vote a green in and get him to pardon one of the early lynches (perhaps the first one where we aren't sure of our lynch victim, probably the day 1 lynch). This gets rid of the pardon whilst still protecting a probable green. If mafia obtain one of the positions, and don't block the lynch, then we can lynch on the next turn in the knowledge that we're definitely lynching scum that time. Please do not consider lynching the pardoner purely to get rid of the pardon. There is no reason to.
Pardoning an early lynch isn't a good idea if it's for no particular use. This is for one of the same reasons I wouldn't want a black mayor. If we're forced to pardon, or to policy lynch, this early in the game, all it does is give scum another chance to shoot 4 kp into the town, and if we do it on day 2, it give assassins another chance to shoot too. So that's 8-14 KP for only one lynch or no lynch at all. And, in thinking about it, the pardon doesn't seem to have much use at all for town.
If we could agree on a lynch target for today, one thing we could try to do, is vote in one mayor, and then vote our lynch target in as pardoner. Then the mayor just lynches the "pardoner", who was the original lynch target. This way, we kill the same player and get rid of the decidedly anti-town pardoner at the same time.
If the pardoner pardons near the start of the game, can we still lynch him?
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On April 12 2011 08:08 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:02 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
This is for one of the same reasons I wouldn't want a black mayor. ...what? I'm sorry I'm still trying to learn how to play this game but... what does skin color have to do with anything. That's just being racist =/
That's my Grandpa speaking, sorry. Sometimes I just get all worked up and things like that slip out.
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Also, I forgot to mention this in my post, but why's Pandain getting replaced? This will be interesting to see how his replacement acts after a fake DT claim.
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When are the bodyguards revealed to public office?
We do NOT want any scum in the leadership positions at all as they will learn the identities of the bodyguards.
I forgot about the BGs -_- . The point of this though, would be to lynch the pardoner NOW, right as the mayor is elected, so we wouldn't have to deal with him. Ideally, we would have a pro-town player as the pardoner, who would probably never use the pardoning ability. However, if we vote someone who could be scum in, that's not very good for town at all. Thus, my proposal that we could potentially just kill the pardoner Day 1, by voting in an agreed lynch. Honestly, I can't think of any situation where we'd really want to pardon somebody.
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On April 12 2011 12:54 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Hey look, the Protact supporters have come out of hiding. Your glorious leader has just returned in time. Kita I think your supporters have to move their votes to me to make sure that the assassin dosn't get into the town elected roles.
On April 12 2011 12:56 GMarshal wrote:
Damnit, I was hoping to be able to go to bed without having to fight for the town for another hour.
I am as always your immortal servant town, so I wont allow you to fuck up!
These two posts disturb me. The first one, says "Hey guys, switch votes to me so I can be mayor!", and the second is you trying to reaffirm your towniness. Honestly, these rub me the wrong way, and they look like you're trying to make some last bid to get into first place and secure the mayorship. It doesn't look like a town move, but more like scum trying to fear monger. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with you in office now. 
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Note: Don't actually follow these unless you have no clue what you're doing. This is more to give out some of my thoughts than to really direct you.
Detective:
Rean
Cubedin
TranceStorm
DarthThienAn
darmousseh
redFF
Barundar
Watcher/Tracker:
Jackal58
Coagulation
chaoser
kitaman27
aidnai
Just some quick names off the top of my head, no where near a rigorous list, considering there's still 39 people.
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On April 14 2011 05:27 Robellicose wrote:
I'm fairly convinced from reading everyone's arguments that coag is red, so I'm sticking with lynching him so we do not waste a vigi hit. I'm convinced of m0nsterchefs scumminess too, but I'd rather the lynch went on a mafia player who's being really active - if the mafia mouthpiece dies, others will have to start speaking up to derail our analysis, and it'll give us some good targets to pressure if a lurker starts speaking up after someone who's been active flips red.
If you think coag is red, how is shooting him "wasting" a vigi hit?
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Mr. Wiggles' Take on FW vs. Coag
Ok, so I just got home from school (last class of semester, yay!), only to open up the thread, see who died, and find 15 new pages of information. So, there's been a lot of debate on Flamewheel's DT claim, and how he fingered Coag as red, and I'd like to add my own thoughts to it.
Information available to me:
-FW claimed Assassin Day 1, in an attempt to secure the mayorship
-FW is a veteran, and lauded analyzer
-FW has now claimed DT, saying he checked Coag and that he is Mafia
-There are no Framers
-Coag has claimed Veteran, and is adamantly defending himself
Thoughts:
I'm personally inclined to believe that at this point, FW is either an Assassin or a Detective. I'm not going to entertain the idea that he's a Townie or Mafia. If he's a Townie, then this is very anti-town play, because he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any kind of claim, and now he's faking being a DT. That would mean he's involved in two major lies, but hey, he'd probably be having fun :p. If he's mafia, then this doesn't make much sense either, as again, he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any claim, and then everything that follows would be complete insanity, though if he were somehow mafia, it would follow closely to my thoughts on if he were an assassin.
So, without further ado:
Case 1: Flamewheel is an Assassin
Then, his claim day 1 is a very strong power play against the other assassins. He would assure himself immunity from them, while also having complete security from accidental hits from mafia or vigilantes. There is nothing illogical about a Black trying this.
However, he never made it into office. This then leaves him in a bit of a tight spot. Mafia have no reason to shoot him if he's black, so he'll probably live through Night 1, but he needs to find a way to live at least past night 2.
So what can he do? Claim detective, and put his strong analytical skills to work. A lot of people seem to be mistaking that just because FW claimed he used a check, he must be DT because Assassins can't use a check Night 1, without considering the possibility that he used no check at all (Looking at you, new players). All game long, I've had to read how in awe people are of his scum hunting skills, so considering this, it would be relatively easy for him to pick out at least one potential scum candidate and make a case against him, using the fake DT check as extra leverage.
This fits in with his motivations of self-preservation. If he's wrong, so what? He just gets killed which, and this is important, he would have anyways after claiming Assassin AND Detective. If he's right, then he can potentially attract medic attention, and live through the night, which is his optimal move at the moment.
Case 2: Flamewheel is a Detective
Then, according to him at least, his claim day 1 was a draw to get mafia and other assassins to attack him, so he would have more information to work with. However, in doing so, he most likely lessened his chances of actually making it in to office. So, this is not illogical, but is more of a choice of information over security.
So, as he would have expected, he did not make it into office, but was free to use his check last night, on Coag, with it coming back as mafia. Now, he needs to build his case against him, but in order to get town to actually believe him, he has to claim his real role, Detective.
This will allow him to lynch a scum, and draw medic protection so he can continue checking. It also dissuades Assassins from hitting him, so he can continue to help the town.
Why Coag's Flip Will Reveal Nothing Useful About Flamewheel:
Let's say that Coag flips Town (Green/Blue). Then FW is lying, and is an Assassin. His gambit has failed, and now the other Assassins will kill him overnight. This reveals nothing to town, only other Assassins.
Let's say that Coag flips Mafia. This reveals nothing to us about FW. All it shows is that he might be a DT, or he's a good analyst. We don't know anything about his alignment, only that he can pick out scum. (Which is useful but has dangers, addressed later).
My Opinion:
I'm personally inclined to think that Flamewheel is an Assassin. While both scenarios are sound and have nothing inconsistent in them, I find the first one to be more likely. After a failed claim and run at the mayor, this is exactly how a good player like FW would have to play it in order to have any further chance at winning. If he were a DT, there are many different ways he could have played out Day 1 and now Day 2, and pretending to be an assassin seems to be one of the oddest. This means that his case on Coag is entirely analysis, and should be treated as such, though keep in mind this does not necessarily lessen the case on him.
How we should proceed:
Lynching Coag?
Lynching Coag is only an option if we have been convinced that he is a member of the mafia. If you are only convinced because of the claim, but not by analysis, then I urge you to reconsider your decision. If you are convinced by the analysis, then nothing is really amiss. The only oddities I see with Coag is that he hasn't seemed quite as aggressive and spammy as earlier games (The same applies to Jackal), so this might be due to his claim, or to his being mafia, both are possible. In my opinion, we should consider if there are other scummy targets who we can lynch, as Coag has claimed Veteran. Like GMarshal (and others) have said, we can use a vigilante shot on Coag tonight to see if he is Red or a Veteran. This might require the Vigilante to claim, in order to assure its authenticity, but then we either have two confirmed townies, or two confirmed scum (If the shot is faked). This is debatable however, so I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it.
Medic Protecting Flamewheel?
Again, this is debatable. I don't think we should lynch him really, as we are either lynching a Detective or an Assassin, both of which are bad for town (The Assassin less so). So, we are left with the decision of either leaving him to die by Assassins or Mafia, or protecting him to continue to analyze and possibly check. He'll be targeted by either or both factions because of his two claims. Assassins will hit him as they think he is an Assassin, or Mafia will hit him as they think he is a Detective. So, should we protect him? From my perspective, no. We will not know his role until he either flips, or is investigated himself and that information is made public. This means that we can only trust in him so far as his analysis and scum hunting goes. However, as I mentioned earlier, there is an inherent danger in this. Flamewheel has a reputation as a good analyst. If he is an assassin, he can very easily analyze the players he believes to be the other Assassins and put a spin on the analysis so that his final conclusion is Mafia. This entails that he'll be using town to kill his competition, wasting our lynches. This is the first reason for not protecting him, the next being that it won't do him any good anyways. Right now, he is a prime target for both the Mafia and the other Assassins, and there is a high likelihood that they will stack, when there is a separate 3-5 KP that might be aimed at him, from the mafia spending one, and anywhere between two to four Assassins all wanting to kill him. A medic protecting him is a waste. If people want to increase his chances of surviving the night, a much better choice is to place a watcher on him, as then we may net ourselves a Mafia and collaterally, the names of potentially several Assassins.
So Who Do We Lynch?
At this point in time, I don't know. What we should do, is pull back for a minute and start scumhunting. Several people have created several analysis, and I'm sure there are more that can be made if the town starts actively analyzing. At the very least, this will give us more information, as everyone will either analyze, or will be analyzed, giving us something to work with in the coming days. Hopefully we can find someone worth lynching in the next day and a half, and if not, we may be forced to reconsider the Coag vs. Flamewheel debate.
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On April 14 2011 11:11 Protactinium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 06:19 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Mr. Wiggles' Take on FW vs. Coag Ok, so I just got home from school (last class of semester, yay!), only to open up the thread, see who died, and find 15 new pages of information. So, there's been a lot of debate on Flamewheel's DT claim, and how he fingered Coag as red, and I'd like to add my own thoughts to it. Information available to me:-FW claimed Assassin Day 1, in an attempt to secure the mayorship -FW is a veteran, and lauded analyzer -FW has now claimed DT, saying he checked Coag and that he is Mafia-There are no Framers -Coag has claimed Veteran, and is adamantly defending himself Thoughts:I'm personally inclined to believe that at this point, FW is either an Assassin or a Detective. I'm not going to entertain the idea that he's a Townie or Mafia. If he's a Townie, then this is very anti-town play, because he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any kind of claim, and now he's faking being a DT. That would mean he's involved in two major lies, but hey, he'd probably be having fun :p. If he's mafia, then this doesn't make much sense either, as again, he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any claim, and then everything that follows would be complete insanity, though if he were somehow mafia, it would follow closely to my thoughts on if he were an assassin. So, without further ado: Case 1: Flamewheel is an AssassinThen, his claim day 1 is a very strong power play against the other assassins. He would assure himself immunity from them, while also having complete security from accidental hits from mafia or vigilantes. There is nothing illogical about a Black trying this. However, he never made it into office. This then leaves him in a bit of a tight spot. Mafia have no reason to shoot him if he's black, so he'll probably live through Night 1, but he needs to find a way to live at least past night 2. So what can he do? Claim detective, and put his strong analytical skills to work. A lot of people seem to be mistaking that just because FW claimed he used a check, he must be DT because Assassins can't use a check Night 1, without considering the possibility that he used no check at all (Looking at you, new players). All game long, I've had to read how in awe people are of his scum hunting skills, so considering this, it would be relatively easy for him to pick out at least one potential scum candidate and make a case against him, using the fake DT check as extra leverage. This fits in with his motivations of self-preservation. If he's wrong, so what? He just gets killed which, and this is important, he would have anyways after claiming Assassin AND Detective. If he's right, then he can potentially attract medic attention, and live through the night, which is his optimal move at the moment. Case 2: Flamewheel is a DetectiveThen, according to him at least, his claim day 1 was a draw to get mafia and other assassins to attack him, so he would have more information to work with. However, in doing so, he most likely lessened his chances of actually making it in to office. So, this is not illogical, but is more of a choice of information over security. So, as he would have expected, he did not make it into office, but was free to use his check last night, on Coag, with it coming back as mafia. Now, he needs to build his case against him, but in order to get town to actually believe him, he has to claim his real role, Detective. This will allow him to lynch a scum, and draw medic protection so he can continue checking. It also dissuades Assassins from hitting him, so he can continue to help the town. Why Coag's Flip Will Reveal Nothing Useful About Flamewheel:Let's say that Coag flips Town (Green/Blue). Then FW is lying, and is an Assassin. His gambit has failed, and now the other Assassins will kill him overnight. This reveals nothing to town, only other Assassins. Let's say that Coag flips Mafia. This reveals nothing to us about FW. All it shows is that he might be a DT, or he's a good analyst. We don't know anything about his alignment, only that he can pick out scum. (Which is useful but has dangers, addressed later). My Opinion: I'm personally inclined to think that Flamewheel is an Assassin. While both scenarios are sound and have nothing inconsistent in them, I find the first one to be more likely. After a failed claim and run at the mayor, this is exactly how a good player like FW would have to play it in order to have any further chance at winning. If he were a DT, there are many different ways he could have played out Day 1 and now Day 2, and pretending to be an assassin seems to be one of the oddest. This means that his case on Coag is entirely analysis, and should be treated as such, though keep in mind this does not necessarily lessen the case on him. How we should proceed: Lynching Coag?Lynching Coag is only an option if we have been convinced that he is a member of the mafia. If you are only convinced because of the claim, but not by analysis, then I urge you to reconsider your decision. If you are convinced by the analysis, then nothing is really amiss. The only oddities I see with Coag is that he hasn't seemed quite as aggressive and spammy as earlier games (The same applies to Jackal), so this might be due to his claim, or to his being mafia, both are possible. In my opinion, we should consider if there are other scummy targets who we can lynch, as Coag has claimed Veteran. Like GMarshal (and others) have said, we can use a vigilante shot on Coag tonight to see if he is Red or a Veteran. This might require the Vigilante to claim, in order to assure its authenticity, but then we either have two confirmed townies, or two confirmed scum (If the shot is faked). This is debatable however, so I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it. Medic Protecting Flamewheel?Again, this is debatable. I don't think we should lynch him really, as we are either lynching a Detective or an Assassin, both of which are bad for town (The Assassin less so). So, we are left with the decision of either leaving him to die by Assassins or Mafia, or protecting him to continue to analyze and possibly check. He'll be targeted by either or both factions because of his two claims. Assassins will hit him as they think he is an Assassin, or Mafia will hit him as they think he is a Detective. So, should we protect him? From my perspective, no. We will not know his role until he either flips, or is investigated himself and that information is made public. This means that we can only trust in him so far as his analysis and scum hunting goes. However, as I mentioned earlier, there is an inherent danger in this. Flamewheel has a reputation as a good analyst. If he is an assassin, he can very easily analyze the players he believes to be the other Assassins and put a spin on the analysis so that his final conclusion is Mafia. This entails that he'll be using town to kill his competition, wasting our lynches. This is the first reason for not protecting him, the next being that it won't do him any good anyways. Right now, he is a prime target for both the Mafia and the other Assassins, and there is a high likelihood that they will stack, when there is a separate 3-5 KP that might be aimed at him, from the mafia spending one, and anywhere between two to four Assassins all wanting to kill him. A medic protecting him is a waste. If people want to increase his chances of surviving the night, a much better choice is to place a watcher on him, as then we may net ourselves a Mafia and collaterally, the names of potentially several Assassins. So Who Do We Lynch?At this point in time, I don't know. What we should do, is pull back for a minute and start scumhunting. Several people have created several analysis, and I'm sure there are more that can be made if the town starts actively analyzing. At the very least, this will give us more information, as everyone will either analyze, or will be analyzed, giving us something to work with in the coming days. Hopefully we can find someone worth lynching in the next day and a half, and if not, we may be forced to reconsider the Coag vs. Flamewheel debate. Here's a long post that says nothing. Let me rephrase your last paragraph. "What we should do, is ignore the real debate and try to take off the pressure for a bit. Several people have created analyses, so if we make more, maybe we can drown out the Coagulation lynch! At the very least, this will cause chaos and save Coagulation for a day. Hopefully we can find an alternative target, because I sure don't want to lynch Coagulation."
Let me summarize:
-I think you're an assassin desperate to find a way to stay alive.
-Whether I'm right or wrong, there's a huge chance you're getting shot multiple times tonight, so there's no need to waste a medic on you. If we want to increase your chances of living, a watcher should be sufficient to scare people away.
-I think a vig shot is sufficient for Coag, if he dies, so what, if he lives, he's town.
-Instead of holding hands and singing songs waiting to lynch Coag, we should still be looking at other players. Why don't you want to do that? Should we just sit around for the next 48 hours?
-If we find other scummy players, lynch them, shoot coag, or vice versa, depending on circumstances.
-If we don't find anyone scummy enough to lynch, we just lynch Coag.
Easy. Simple. Stop being so inflammatory. (HAHA PUN)
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I forgot I was going to do this at the beginning of the day. >.<
Also sticking a vote on GMarshal, so he can be considered a "lynch target", and so if he inexplicably pardons we can carry on his lynch. I'm probably going to continue doing this each day, and if I die, suggest someone else does too. He needs at least one vote on him so he can be considered a "target" in case of random pardons.
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On April 14 2011 13:04 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:03 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I forgot I was going to do this at the beginning of the day. >.<
Also sticking a vote on GMarshal, so he can be considered a "lynch target", and so if he inexplicably pardons we can carry on his lynch. I'm probably going to continue doing this each day, and if I die, suggest someone else does too. He needs at least one vote on him so he can be considered a "target" in case of random pardons. Wait, what?
2nd Place: PARDONER: You are the deputy mayor, but because the mayor is an asshole who hogs all the power, you don't really do much except for one thing: Once per game, you may choose to pardon a lynch target for that particular day. You may invoke the power at any time during the day cycle you choose, and no lynch will happen that day. You enjoy the same bodyguard-protection the mayor has. You are not immune to lynch, and if you are the lynch target, you may not pardon yourself.
How do you define lynch target? How many votes does a "lynch target" need?
My original plan, that I forgot because I never got to the thread until 14 hours after the lynch, was to stick a vote on GMarshal, so that he can't just pardon right away and waste a day or something.
My vote as is, has potential to change, but I forgot he can ninja pardon, and was going to do it last night anyways, and FW reminded me of that.
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On April 14 2011 13:07 aidnai wrote:
yeah that's kinda dumb wiggles. What does that accomplish besides leaving no voting trail?
Because you can change your votes, and it stops a pardon one minute into the day.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/84opT.jpg)
