EPTJust a thought. Remember, the hero can claim if needed. This is crucial as the hero could be a good counter to an assassin king, and could make sure a townie king does not hit him. (The actual situation is going to be a bit more complex, but we should talk about that when it actually happens)
Kingmaker - A New Game - Page 4
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Just a thought. Remember, the hero can claim if needed. This is crucial as the hero could be a good counter to an assassin king, and could make sure a townie king does not hit him. (The actual situation is going to be a bit more complex, but we should talk about that when it actually happens) | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:45 LSB wrote: Pandain. Can you shape up this game? Since this is micro mafia, I'd rather not want to waste a lynch killing a spammer for the sake of them confusing us. Just a thought. Remember, the hero can claim if needed. This is crucial as the hero could be a good counter to an assassin king, and could make sure a townie king does not hit him. (The actual situation is going to be a bit more complex, but we should talk about that when it actually happens) Pressuring, not lynching. Everyone calm down :p | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:47 BrownBear wrote: I think he wants you to start doing more than just pressure lynching - propose ideas, debate strategy, that kind of thing. Basically, do what others are doing. I have earlier, but now I'm just watching day9 then going to bed. So I might as well stop posting :/ | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:43 BrownBear wrote: Well, obviously, but I'm too used to seeing a bunch of people vote on an inactive, go AFK for the rest of the cycle, and then the poor guy dies, even if he shows up. I'm just saying, king should be using his judgement here. If town wants to kill a dude "for being inactive" but the dude has posted, should king go ahead and kill the dude? Not unless the king thinks he's actually an assassin, or the king himself is an assassin. Part of the awesome part of having a King is that the king reveals a lot about HIS role by how he acts. If we force him to be our puppet, that doesn't tell us much at all. Giving the kings a bit more leeway might actually make an Assassin-King work in our favor - we thrust him into the spotlight, make him more likely to screw up, and thus stand a better chance of catching him. I'm in favor of ADVISING the king, but not forcing him to follow our orders. Gives us more to work with. Also, whoever is the king should be held to a VERY HIGH standard of activity, for the same reason: we know they're king, but we want to know as much more about them as we can. Remember though, we can easily switch to the Merlin (abstain), so if the inactive shows up and everyone is contributing, we can easily not lynch anyone. The problem is that in your situation, that mostly happens if the town HAS TO kill someone. It would be great if we had 5 days of lynches to be able to check out how a king acts, and make sure that the king isn't an assassin. However, remember, we only will have three lynches. First day it's going to be hard to see what the king does. Second day, what if the king goes against the grain and kills someone? It should be easy to pick out a random townie. Third day, we're unlucky and king is an assassin. GG. As for holding to him to a high level activity. I agree with that, but in order to pull that off, we need to make sure he claims at the start of the day. I see no reason why the king should not claim | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:47 BrownBear wrote: I think he wants you to start doing more than just pressure lynching - propose ideas, debate strategy, that kind of thing. Basically, do what others are doing. ^This Pandain. Could you address the issue of forcing a 'puppet king', and day 1 inactive lynch? Thanks | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
As far as using the relics I don't think using the random kill is wise. This is a better gambit for the end of the game, when the probability of hitting someone increases. It would be against the interest of the assassins to use this ability except early on, when the probability of hitting themselves is drastically lower. Therefore no King should use the random lynch. If we really aren't okay with someone being killed for Day 1 we should use the ability to gain some possible intel. It's not a guarantee but it will give us a better start for day 2. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
So the Kingmaker knows who he chose as King. Obviously, we all want the king to claim in thread. Thus, stands to reason that a king who doesn't claim until he executes is basically scum. I'm trying to think if there's any merit to the Kingmaker claiming and posting who he chose as king in order to force the king out... obviously though, an Assassin King can delay with Excalibur/Merlin. Actually, question - does a king using Merlin/Excalibur mean he remains king next cycle, or is a new king chosen? | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:52 BrownBear wrote: Hmm... more ideas. So the Kingmaker knows who he chose as King. Obviously, we all want the king to claim in thread. Thus, stands to reason that a king who doesn't claim until he executes is basically scum. I'm trying to think if there's any merit to the Kingmaker claiming and posting who he chose as king in order to force the king out... obviously though, an Assassin King can delay with Excalibur/Merlin. Actually, question - does a king using Merlin/Excalibur mean he remains king next cycle, or is a new king chosen? If the kingmaker reveals himself, he just gets killed by the mafia. And anyways, we should just expect the king to claim in thread. New king is chosen always btw | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Day 1 A new King has been found! Rejoice ye filthy peasants! Your King has 2 days time to make a decision! God speed men! Day ends in 48 hours @ 11:00 PM ET/12:00 KST Wednesday November 8th. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Regarding some questionables: 1. Pandain - I don't think a red would bring so much suspicion onto himself immediately after the game starts. Despite his early vote, I don't think he's one of the assassins. 2. DoctorHelvetica/Amber[Light] - I see any defense of giving the King a free reign as a red trying to leave open the possibility of one of them getting away with killing a green as the king without consequence. I think LSB covered this already, but let me repeat again - there is NO advantage to the town to let the king decide the lynch on himself. The very definition of townies are weaklings whose only advantage is their numbers - how can a rational green throw their only advantage away? Lets see here... On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote: I agree with DrH that the King should not solely rely upon the majority to make a decision. It will be better for the spirit of the game for the King to listen to what the town has to say, but instead the King should ultimately make his own decision, and live with it.. You aren't providing any real beneficial reason why it would be beneficial for the town to do this, instead relying on the excuse of adhering to some mysterious "spirit of the game." On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote:As far as using the relics I don't think using the random kill is wise. This is a better gambit for the end of the game, when the probability of hitting someone increases. It would be against the interest of the assassins to use this ability except early on, when the probability of hitting themselves is drastically lower. Therefore no King should use the random lynch. Of course you'd say this. On the surface, this seems like a pretty neutral post. But look at this from the standpoint of a mafia. They know who each other is, and thus by analogue already know who they should lynch. A red King will never use the excalibur. And a red king will later refer to this very post to argue why he isn't using it. On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote:If we really aren't okay with someone being killed for Day 1 we should use the ability to gain some possible intel. It's not a guarantee but it will give us a better start for day 2. Here you're banking on the fact that 1. merlin can only be used ONCE, and 2. It is UNRELIABLE. Thus, seen from a red point of view, anything the merlin may possibly reveal could comparatively easily be discussed away as bad information. overall, I see Amber's latest post as very condemning. ##Vote Amber[Light] | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I see the King as being like a mayor role. He should never do what the town tells him to do. When they agree to conform to the towns will, the mafia will become active and control the decisions the king makes. The king needs to scumhunt somewhat independently and ultimately make his own decision. | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
oh and bite me pandain. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
Okay, note this. Say we decide to let town always dictate King's execution choice A.K.A. the lynch occurs by majority. What does it result in? The normal F9 mafia setup! You know, the setup that is actually thought to be balanced despite of mafia's ability to influence the lynch choice. I think the fancy and new theme is preventing people from seeing how easily we can turn this into normal mafia settings. I absolutely do not see why we should instead take alternative path, where we introduce whole new set of unknown variables and theoretical massive advantage to the scum when he/she is wrongly chosen as the king. Also my thoughts about Hero role. Last thing Hero should do is play like Paranoid Gun Owner hoping to get kill in. Since the town has higher probability of being town than scum playing scummily deliberately can be disastrous. Instead Hero should act as normal vanilla townie and contribute until the majority vote swings against you, whenceupon he can claim. The advantage to lying low is humongous. Since Hero is the sole role, he has the benefit of being able to roleclaim and verify himself 100% anytime into the game- something that grows in strength in the late game where there are lesser number of players. tl;dr Just make lynch based on majority and let's play normal mafia, instead of that other path which can lead to huge damage for town when mafia is picked as town. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On November 09 2010 13:10 orgolove wrote: The Kingmaker can't claim. He's modkilled if he does claim. -_- Regarding some questionables: 1. Pandain - I don't think a red would bring so much suspicion onto himself immediately after the game starts. Despite his early vote, I don't think he's one of the assassins. 2. DoctorHelvetica/Amber[Light] - I see any defense of giving the King a free reign as a red trying to leave open the possibility of one of them getting away with killing a green as the king without consequence. I think LSB covered this already, but let me repeat again - there is NO advantage to the town to let the king decide the lynch on himself. The very definition of townies are weaklings whose only advantage is their numbers - how can a rational green throw their only advantage away? Lets see here... You aren't providing any real beneficial reason why it would be beneficial for the town to do this, instead relying on the excuse of adhering to some mysterious "spirit of the game." Of course you'd say this. On the surface, this seems like a pretty neutral post. But look at this from the standpoint of a mafia. They know who each other is, and thus by analogue already know who they should lynch. A red King will never use the excalibur. And a red king will later refer to this very post to argue why he isn't using it. Here you're banking on the fact that 1. merlin can only be used ONCE, and 2. It is UNRELIABLE. Thus, seen from a red point of view, anything the merlin may possibly reveal could comparatively easily be discussed away as bad information. overall, I see Amber's latest post as very condemning. ##Vote Amber[Light] Don't you think it would be wise for the assassins to take advantage of eliminating these roles so they can't be used in the late game? You completely misinterpreted my post and went ahead to stretch what I thought about how to execute this game in such a way to make me appear as though I'm negative. It would be wise for you to do a little more research before jumping to conclusions on the vote train. Hopefully the king is not going to act irrationally and come to ridiculous conclusions and justifications for their kills. I'm not going to "vote" for anybody for now since I don't really believe it's going to create a good pro-town atmosphere. The first day kill is going to be bitter for everybody regardless of who we choose. Don't forget... there's only 9 of us... | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
2.) Excalibur and Merlin are one shot uses for the entire game, not once per King. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
Kings shouldn't really claim so quickly. It's going to twist constructive discussion in this thread. There's gonna be a lot of ass kissing too and the kings mind may be tainted by irrational thread discussion, hence why a player who is an independent thinker and someone who has a good scum-dar should be our kings. Work downward. Don't feel bad ranking individuals based upon their skill in other games. The kingmaker is [i]soooooo important so hopefully he's already got a good long-term game plan..[/b] | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
On November 09 2010 14:20 Amber[LighT] wrote: Don't you think it would be wise for the assassins to take advantage of eliminating these roles so they can't be used in the late game? You completely misinterpreted my post and went ahead to stretch what I thought about how to execute this game in such a way to make me appear as though I'm negative. It would be wise for you to do a little more research before jumping to conclusions on the vote train. Hopefully the king is not going to act irrationally and come to ridiculous conclusions and justifications for their kills. I'm not going to "vote" for anybody for now since I don't really believe it's going to create a good pro-town atmosphere. The first day kill is going to be bitter for everybody regardless of who we choose. Don't forget... there's only 9 of us... Here you give no actual substantive response to both me and several others in the thread that point out the enormous advantages given to the town, and instead rely on a weak defense that I'm stretching your words. How is it remotely a good idea to give the reds any possibility to kill a townie without consequence? As Hesmyrr mentioned, following this pattern means we will simply default to the standard F9 setup, which has been proven time and time again to be reasonably balanced for the town despite the mafia's ability to influence the arguments. Right now it just appears that you're just trying to leave room for the reds to kill a town without consequence when a red mayor comes around. In your haste, you yourself proved why we should not allow the king to kill whomever he wants, as he can then act irrationally and come to ridiculous conclusions and justifications for their kills And no, I do not agree with the King not revealing himself once chosen. We need to find out what the king is thinking. We have a different king each day, and the game setup does not have any day kills. So there is absolutely no disadvantage to the king being revealed to the towns, and it will only give the Assassins, with their ability to PM, an even better chance to plot behind their backs. Remember - there are -no- PMs for townies! So, here I ask again: King, who are you? | ||
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