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On November 10 2010 03:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:16 LSB wrote:On November 10 2010 03:07 CubEdIn wrote:On November 10 2010 02:59 LSB wrote:On November 09 2010 19:29 CubEdIn wrote:On November 09 2010 18:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
WTF are you keep talking about. So if there is 5-3 split and king goes, "oh guy with 3 votes seem more suspicious imma hammer him" do you have any idea what chaos would ensure thereafter? At the point where king makes a decision where town opinion is not so decisive as your example, everything goes to shit whether the king turns out to be town or not. Like I said, if the king has valid excuse behind his push, then it should be enough to convince the majority into believing his case.
In fact please explain how "t should be pretty obvious if he goes with the general "stream of thought" that the town is going with, or if he just chooses to lynch someone who seems completely random to the town" somehow turns into support for the statement "I disagree that king should listen to town." Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but the king is a cool role. Why do we have to spoil it? It's the player's chance. IF there's a 5-4 vote split, (king's vote is on the 4) the king can lynch whoever he wants, no? That's fair, the imbalance is not that big. If there's a 5-3 vote split (assuming one player died), then the king has one of those 3 votes. So in fact, it's just a 5-2 vote split (not counting king's vote), so the imbalance is fairly obvious. King has the option of going with the majority, or taking a huge risk and killing the "2-vote". If the 2-vote turns blue, then the king will have a lot to explain for, and it won't be an easy way out. Also, the other 2 voters will be in trouble. So no, given the fact that there are only 9 players, I don't think there's any way for the king to explain un-town-like moves. I fail to imagine a scenario where the king could justify a "gut feeling" blue kill, unless the votes are actually quite close (note the 5-4 split I was talking about earlier). Remember, it is quiet easy to state a few reasons why someone is probably scum. In every single game, scum are accused, town are accused. Take this post in the Micro Game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161868¤tpage=8#145Each are reasons why the king could have killed someone. If we allow the king to go against majority, all that's going to happen is the assassins are going to be able to crowned, write up an analysis against a random player. Post the analysis and get the town to waste a lynch. I don't buy the 'the king should have fun' argument. Remember, the problem is that the King is a very big danger and hold lots of power. Play to win, not to 'roleplay' Fair enough. You don't have to explain the easy bandwagons, as I said, I got raped for simply counter-attacking the guy who attacked me in the Assassin game. Nobody even bothered to read my posts and see if they made any sense from a Bodyguard point of view. But I digress. However, the king is only a big danger if he's on his own. There is NO way that a king who will go against the majority will not be held accountable. I think that it's very well worth having the king go totally against town and kill a blue if in return he will get killed day 2 and flip red. So no, I don't think it's very easy for someone to get away with killing whoever they want, and bandwagons can be started by anyone, king doesn't have much to do with that. At the very least king should have one extra vote or something. You are only judging from the perspective of being a townie, but what if there's a king who is really sure (based on a gut feeling) that someone is an assassin? What will he do? He might even invoke Merlin or do silly things like that just out of frustration of not being listened to by the town. Either way, I'll go with any decision, but forcing king to be normal townie will probably cause more bad than it does good. Just my two cents. Exactly. The issue I'm seeking to prevent is what if the king goes against majority. If we have no definitive statement, there will be no way to tell if a king is scum or town. But I see your point about a frustrated townie. Although I usually would say "suck it up and do what's best". I just thought of this. New thoughtHow about this. The king can announce, at least 24 hours beforehand who he is going to lynch. And then he must defend his lynch and reasoning, and satisfy the town, or go with the majority opinion. I am okay with this, as it's a lot more transparent, and we can easily tell if the king is trying to find scum, or if the king is just trying to make a flimsy case against someone. I am on board with this idea. The King could probably give a list of 2 people that should be up for a lynch. This might encourage more discussion. By putting on player under the radar you're going to have 1 player vs. the town. No one is going to step up and defend someone unknowingly. Giving the King the task of identifying and examining 2 players means that his analytical reasoning should remain constant, and it gives the town more leeway.
I imagine it to be more like. 1 player vs. the king. Basically its a test to see how well the king's reasoning works. If the king's reasoning sucks and is just BS, the king will have to switch targets.
This should solve the problem with defense, as people are pretty prone to attacking arguments.
The only problem with putting up a list of two people, is the mafia could just put up a list of 2 townies. One player means we can always switch to a second choice if needed.
I could only imagine an assassin King coming up with some BS as to why candidate X should be lynched, and the town just idly agrees while candidate X is screaming at the other players that they aren't being reasonable. This is where the King should absolve his power. When it comes to discussion, he should remember that he is still just another townie.
I don't think this is going to be a problem, especially considering how active this game is currently.
I will commit to analyzing arguments. And I expects others to do the same
When should the King announce his presence? Right at the start of day? Wait 24 hours after each day post?
So here are what I believe are acceptable options for the king.
Roleclaimed King
The King Roleclaims ASAP, and then the town discusses who to lynch. The King then will execute whoever has the most vote, with the king's vote counting as 1.5 votes (to break ties).
This is if the King has not found a scum yet, or is not confident in his own abilities.
Judgment king
King Roleclaims Before 24 hours are up. He then declares who he is going to execute (make sure you don't accidentally execute them), and has a long post with all his reasoning.
The town will then discuss this and the king will defend his arguments.
If the kings arguments hold up. He can proceed to lynch.
If the kings arguments fail, he can either 1) Find someone else to attack, or 2) Go with town majority opinion of who to lynch (The town can decide to use a relic)
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On November 10 2010 03:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
no it's not about taking town control away from the lynches
listening to the "town" 9 times out of 10 is listening to the mafia. the king should not be a robot that does whatever the "town" says, he should of course seriously consider the town discussion
but do you really think the assassins won't manipulate the shit out of bandwagons? the whole point of the king is to take that away from scum
if we just have the king do whatever the town says, we're handing the mafia the power to control our lynches not the opposite
What do you think about the new idea? That should help with the 'manipulating bandwagons'. Secondly, you forget about town defense against scum. We can see how these manipulations are working, and scum hunt from these manipulations.
Lastly, the king will be drawing his decisions from the thread, who says the scum isn't manipulating the thread? You propose to 'remove scum manipulations' however it will not work
You have consistently ignored the possibility of an assassin king. What is your solution? Throw in the hat and call it a game?
I'm not doing that
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I like the new idea actually.
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I am the king and I am going to lynch coagulation. He is our worst player and offers little value to the town while he also fits the bill of "inactive"
No one comes off as scummy to me quite yet. I disagree with a lot of what LSB is saying and I don't like the extremity of the conclusions he is drawing but thats not enough.
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I like the king ideas. But I think kings should be able to choose. Not force one of those two upon them. So each new king can choose their own path.
I'm also in the wagon of killing lurkers, so Coag is fine with me, for now.
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Coag was also someone I was considering for Day1. There isn't enough information to clear him right now anyway.
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Are we not going to use merlin then? I mean, if we're not sure at all, doesn't 'merlin give us the best chance?
Of course, at the very least, wait for him to respond.
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There's one part of the Merlin description that makes me irk:
"Merlin likes to play tricks on young Kings and may lie!"
Now I don't know what that means, but it could be that it would lie if you use it early? Or it would only tell the truth to kings that were elected once before? I don't know but it just seems odd.
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Let's hear Coag defend himself before we go ahead and execute.
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On November 10 2010 05:11 Pandain wrote:
Are we not going to use merlin then? I mean, if we're not sure at all, doesn't 'merlin give us the best chance?
Of course, at the very least, wait for him to respond.
Merlin just brings us close to lylo.
Remember the town only can have 2 mislynches before lylo.
If we use the merlin, we can only have 1 mislynch before lylo.
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On November 10 2010 05:47 BrownBear wrote:
Let's hear Coag defend himself before we go ahead and execute.
how can you defend being inactive and bad
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On November 10 2010 05:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 05:47 BrownBear wrote:
Let's hear Coag defend himself before we go ahead and execute. how can you defend being inactive and bad
1.You could wait for him to talk for one...
2.It's not just that about coag, by waiting longer we can have more time, having more people talk. More information=good.
@Lsb: How does merlin affect the # of mislynches?
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a day we use merlin is a day that the town doesn't lynch but the assassins do kill
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On November 10 2010 05:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 05:47 BrownBear wrote:
Let's hear Coag defend himself before we go ahead and execute. how can you defend being inactive and bad
Because we don't want to lynch based off of JUST being inactive and bad?
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Player 1: "Hey, Player 2 is inactive and terrible. I'm king. I'm going to kill him before the end of the day because of this."
Players 3-9: "Well, Player 2 is inactive and bad. I guess I don't have any problems with killing him..."
Player 1: "Awesome! EXECUTE PLAYER 2!!!"
Player 2 flips green
Player 1: "Well, shit. At least he was inactive and bad. Now, lets look at the posts today and analyze... wait... fuck."
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That shit ain't gonna fly here. If no better option exists at or near the end of the day, go ahead and lynch Coag, but under no circumstances should you be executing people until the last possible minute.
If anyone turns this into Bang Bang Mafia I will make it my personal goal to get them executed as soon as possible.
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that's the point
if no better option exists
currently: no better option exists
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Yeah, but we still have something like 30 hours left in the day.
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ok
i never said i was going to kill him immediately
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On November 09 2010 13:30 Coagulation wrote:
so whos king?
oh and bite me pandain.
Coag's first post (of 2) this game. The "bite me Pandain" is in reference to Pandain trying to pressure-vote him.
On November 09 2010 16:34 Coagulation wrote:Show nested quote +And no, I do not agree with the King not revealing himself once chosen. We need to find out what the king is thinking. We have a different king each day, and the game setup does not have any day kills. So there is absolutely no disadvantage to the king being revealed to the towns, and it will only give the Assassins, with their ability to PM, an even better chance to plot behind their backs. Remember - there are -no- PMs for townies! the only ones that really "need to find out what the king is thinking" are the assassins.
Coag's second post (of 2). This is kind of just blatantly wrong. Town absolutely needs to figure out what the king's thinking and logic is. Kingmaker is not infallible, an Assassin-King could absolutely be chosen, and it's town's duty to not only advise the king on a scummy player to lynch, but also attempt to figure out the King's role. If the king is acting scummy/not agreeing with town/being evasive/executing without fully discussing why or explaining himself... chances are he's got something to hide.
The thing I can't tell here is whether this is Coag deliberately trying to mislead town, or whether it's just Coag being an idiot.
Analysis is hard when the player doesn't give you anything to analyze.
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SORRY
i have to admit i was gonna try and lay a little low because previose games a i posted alot and apparently was a fucking liability to the town.
now im just trying to pace myself and play it slow and you fuckers are talking about lynching me.
dont worry i will start posting a mile a minute now
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EPT
