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On November 09 2010 12:00 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 09 2010 11:55 Pandain wrote:On November 09 2010 11:53 LSB wrote:On November 09 2010 11:50 Pandain wrote:
Alright, here's some of my thoughts right now.
Standards for a King:
1.King should not lynch anyone before 24 hours. Don't be impulsive, don't be stupid. Obviously you should in fact wait until last moment possible(but don't forget :p.) There's nothing worse I can imagine than having a king execute someone at the first second. :/
2.Calling/executing. Also should not be used,especially right now. I'm thinking we could save this towards late game. For example, if there's 2 town and one scum left, king can easily just execute both of them and win the game. With only 9 people, this isn't too impossible either.
Don't be too rash. Follow the majority, at least as a guideline. We should probably decide as a group when to use call/execute. Which reminds me:
Ace, does using execute AND Use: Excalibur mean you can get two kills in one day? Firstly, the king should not have any autonomy at all. The town should decide what the king does. Secondly, I don't think you understand what the king does. The king can only kill one person each round. He basically decides the lynch (like the mayor) Thirdly, follow the majority as a rule. This way we can tell if the assassin is the king and just using his role to get an extra KP I disagree, actually. I totally agree that he should follow the town, but sometimes you have to follow your gut. For the early days I highly agree that he should do what the town says, but just leaving that up to the town increases the possibility for scum to manipulate the whole thing. Now, if a king just does whatever he wants, is that suscipcious? Of course! However, leaving him a bit of room is a good thing imo. Following your gut is an easy way for the Assassin to gain KP. It's easy for an assassin to go against the town and execute a townie because it 'went against his gut'. We would have no read on the king. Think of it this way. Your way:Townie is king and goes against his gut: High chance of killing town Assassin is king: Easy extra KP There is no benefit besides an easier job for the AssassinYour afraid of the scum manipulating the results. This is public, so therefore if they start messing around, we'll be able to tell. However, if the scum is the king and manipulates the results, it's private, we won't be able to tell. Lastly, remember. we only have 2 mislynches until lylo. We cannot let the scum to gain a hold of any of our lynchs What do you mean, if the king manipulates the results? From what I understand, he does every single one of his actions in thread.
Lets say the town's votes to kill Infun. But suddenly the king decides to kill deconduo instead. The king claims that he had a 'gut feeling', or some other reasoning.
This would be indistinguishable from a assassin kill.
I understand maybe deconduo could be a mafia. However, the fact that if we allow any lax in this rule means that it's a free hit for the scum. Allowing scum to get a free kill is far worse than a small chance of maybe hitting a scum
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On November 09 2010 12:02 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Merlin should be used Day 1 if there are no good choices.
I actually agree. Even if Merline is going to be unverifiable at best, if we have no good choices might as well go with the merlin.
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Night 0
9 little Villagers meet in the Town Square
5 of them are good, noble and fair
1 is the maker of Kings with power
1 is a Hero, known for his valor
2 of them villains that make you cower
And one shall be crowned King at this important hour!
A Kingmaker has been found!
Alas, ye has no King yet! But wait a bit and play with ye wit!
The game has started. A King shall be nominated within 2 hours! When the King is nominated none of you will know who the King is (except the Kingmaker). The King will obviously be revealed before the 48 hours is up. Good luck!
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Another thing to note is the setup. As Ace did not reveal the number of each roles, we have to figure it out ourselves. Compared to the standard setups, there's 2 disadvantages to the town:
1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player.
2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge.
So I assume there can't be any more than 2 Assassins.
As for the rest, considering the mechanics, There has to be just 1 hero. This leaves us with:
2 Assassin
1 Kingmaker
1 Hero
1 King
4 Town
Right now. Since Assassins can PM each other and coordinate, we must make sure the king waits out the full 48 hours every day to have maximum chance the reds can slip up.
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The king should claim when he is nominated. This way we can know what course of action he will take.
Remember, a rouge king is a loss of a lynch.
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##Vote Brownbear
let's get talking
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Oh great, you post that right before I post my conjecture. -_-
Anyway, Since the King will be different during each day, I say the King should reveal himself the first thing in the morning. It will only benefit the town by preventing the Assassins, if chosen, from plotting through PM, and we'll have the overall context of where's the vote's being headed immediately. There's no special day kill power in this game, so he's safe in that regard.
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On November 09 2010 12:09 orgolove wrote:
Another thing to note is the setup. As Ace did not reveal the number of each roles, we have to figure it out ourselves. Compared to the standard setups, there's 2 disadvantages to the town:
1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player.
That's why you look to my idea about the king following the town's decision. That way even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#27
2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge.
The biggest problem with no detective is that there is no easy way to check the alignment of inactives. This is why on the first day we should lynch an inactive. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#30
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
I do agree with the king following the majority. There's absolutely no reason we should not do that.
It really brings to question why DrH, who's usually a good player, is against this. Really brings a FoS on him.
On November 09 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen.
That's not gonna work. -_- You have to remember that an assassin king is an automatic 2KP that can be bought at the cost of 1 life. In the case where there's 5 players left (end of night 2), an Assassin king can just kill a town immediately, then kill the next town at night, gaining an automatic win.
Above all else it is extremely important for the kingmaker to not choose a red king.
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On November 09 2010 12:22 orgolove wrote:I do agree with the king following the majority. There's absolutely no reason we should not do that. It really brings to question why DrH, who's usually a good player, is against this. Really brings a FoS on him. Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. That's not gonna work. -_- You have to remember that an assassin king is an automatic 2KP that can be bought at the cost of 1 life. In the case where there's 5 players left (end of night 2), an Assassin king can just kill a town immediately, then kill the next town at night, gaining an automatic win. Above all else it is extremely important for the kingmaker to not choose a red king.
Ah yes of course, the lylo situation. There's not much that can be done anyways.
However do you agree that this would work outside of lylo? It defiantly would help day1 and day2
Also, all townies. Make sure you read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475
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Being that this is the first time any of us have seen this game run, just some things to point out:
1.) Merlin is an unreliable detective check. The King asks for it publicly but gets the result in the private. Still it can be used to stall for a day if need be and is good if you have strong suspicions.
2.) Excalibur is a random lynch. Use it wisely.
3.) Remember both Relics can only be used ONCE the entire game. Think about the future Kings also.
4.) The Kingmaker is just as important as any other role. The KM will probably end up choosing an Assassin as King but must balance that out with picking an Assassin early and hoping they screw up (like lynching the Hero) or by picking a strong player with a good plan/analysis and hoping they find an Assassin early.
5.) Assassins don't necessarily get free KP as if chosen King, they are trying to avoid a Hero lynch.
6.) If you are an Assassin you really just want to be picked King at the perfect time. Who knows when that will be? 
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Sup, Pandain.
So for right now, we are just waiting for someone to be all "yo sup, I'm the king for today"?
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On November 09 2010 12:32 BrownBear wrote:
Sup, Pandain.
So for right now, we are just waiting for someone to be all "yo sup, I'm the king for today"?
We are discussing day 1 kill, and also the plan for what the king should do.
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Well, I'm looking at the "lynch an inactive" plan, and I don't really think it's that smart, given that we especially don't want to get anywhere near LYLO. I think we really should be trying to drop an Assassin right now: it's totally doable this stage in the game, and if we fall into the "hurr durr lets just lynch inactive" trap TL town usually falls into, it's going to bite us in the ass.
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On November 09 2010 12:36 BrownBear wrote:
Well, I'm looking at the "lynch an inactive" plan, and I don't really think it's that smart, given that we especially don't want to get anywhere near LYLO. I think we really should be trying to drop an Assassin right now: it's totally doable this stage in the game, and if we fall into the "hurr durr lets just lynch inactive" trap TL town usually falls into, it's going to bite us in the ass.
Inactives are very bad for the town. In practically every game, an inactive is either a) Mafia, or b) a townie that just gets lynched.
If we're going to use a lynch, it should be day 1. Although I'm all for going after an Assassin, we should first establish that being inactive is not okay.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Oh, I still agree that having the king be dependent on the town's decisions is the best course of action.
Yeah, it's not totally riskless for the reds to be chosen as a king. But the hero lynch also works against townie kings as well. Even if the reds don't get chosen as a king during the first two nights, they have two night kills to hit the hero. Plus, there's 2 days where they can try to manipulate the town into lynching a blue, who has a 1/7 and 1/5 chance, respectively of being a hero. Given this, I think there's better than 1/2 odds that the hero will be revealed at the end of 2nd night.
And I don't get it. Pandain, wtf? You just start off right away by randomly voting against a player with no basis? At best, you're bringing suspicion onto yourself as a red who doesn't care who dies as it's not one of your faction. At worst it's going to bite you in the ass if you indeed are red given the many common tells between voting and posting patterns.
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On November 09 2010 12:41 orgolove wrote:
Oh, I still agree that having the king be dependent on the town's decisions is the best course of action.
Yeah, it's not totally riskless for the reds to be chosen as a king. But the hero lynch also works against townie kings as well. Even if the reds don't get chosen as a king during the first two nights, they have two night kills to hit the hero. Plus, there's 2 days where they can try to manipulate the town into lynching a blue, who has a 1/7 and 1/5 chance, respectively of being a hero. Given this, I think there's better than 1/2 odds that the hero will be revealed at the end of 2nd night.
And I don't get it. Pandain, wtf? You just start off right away by randomly voting against a player with no basis? At best, you're bringing suspicion onto yourself as a red who doesn't care who dies as it's not one of your faction. At worst it's going to bite you in the ass if you indeed are red given the many common tells between voting and posting patterns.
Did you not read my statement? I'm voting someone until they talk enough, then I'll change it.
I'm doing this to get everyone talking, as anyone actually voting someone is either 1.mafia or 2. stupid.
This is called pressure, not lynching.
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Well, obviously, but I'm too used to seeing a bunch of people vote on an inactive, go AFK for the rest of the cycle, and then the poor guy dies, even if he shows up.
I'm just saying, king should be using his judgement here. If town wants to kill a dude "for being inactive" but the dude has posted, should king go ahead and kill the dude? Not unless the king thinks he's actually an assassin, or the king himself is an assassin.
Part of the awesome part of having a King is that the king reveals a lot about HIS role by how he acts. If we force him to be our puppet, that doesn't tell us much at all. Giving the kings a bit more leeway might actually make an Assassin-King work in our favor - we thrust him into the spotlight, make him more likely to screw up, and thus stand a better chance of catching him.
I'm in favor of ADVISING the king, but not forcing him to follow our orders. Gives us more to work with.
Also, whoever is the king should be held to a VERY HIGH standard of activity, for the same reason: we know they're king, but we want to know as much more about them as we can.
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Above post was in response to LSB. Forgot to quote.
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Speaking of, brownbear you've spoken enough.
Next!
##unvote
##vote Coag.
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