EPTPick Your Power Mafia 2! - Page 8
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SouthRawrea
Canada608 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
A potential flaw in avoiding the red roles and leaving them for mafia is if the mafia end up swiping the role cop or Bullet Bill, depriving us of our most important investigative roles. The key to leaving the red roles for mafia is that we have the role cop and Bullet Bill to sniff them out. Therefore I propose we prioritize getting these roles quite highly: #1 Takes Comp Vig #2 Takes Copy Cat #3 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #4 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #5 Takes 33% Role Cop, 33% Bulletproof, 33% other pro-town non investigative role(AC or Doc) We prioritize taking the role cop, and mix in the Bulletproof to try to ward off the easy mafia snipes Next most important Town role is Bullet Bill in my eyes. #6 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #7 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #8 Takes 33% Bullet Bill, 33% Veteran, 33% AC or Doc Next is Tracker #9 takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #10 Takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #11 Takes 33% Tracker, 33% Meth Man, 33% AC or Doc Something like this, maybe joat should be mixed in with the 33%. General idea being that we prioritize having good town roles with possibly some people turning out vanilla, than having lots of mediocre town roles, but possibly not getting the really important ones. We would also have the last 4(?) drafting players pick investigative roles, just to make sure they actually get taken, and that the odds don't screw us. Please if your going to argue with this, argue the concept, not the specifics. Is this a good general idea, is there a better plan out there we could use. Or, if you want to amend the specifics please do, but be constructive: what are better percentages, more important roles, etc. Thoughts? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
 Glad to see we're thinking on the same page. Any other potential flaws you see? | ||
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SouthRawrea
Canada608 Posts
(Basically if you join maf by choosing traitor, you're not really helping them. If you stick with town by picking another role, you add a potentially good role to town/take one away from the opposing team. Not to mention if mafia is shafted with having one of the last picks, they may end up getting traitor which would be completely useless to them. Another superbonus :D) Stick with town. Fight team fight! | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:08 Radfield wrote: MORE CONTENT FROM RADFIELD! A potential flaw in avoiding the red roles and leaving them for mafia is if the mafia end up swiping the role cop or Bullet Bill, depriving us of our most important investigative roles. The key to leaving the red roles for mafia is that we have the role cop and Bullet Bill to sniff them out. Therefore I propose we prioritize getting these roles quite highly: #1 Takes Comp Vig #2 Takes Copy Cat #3 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #4 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #5 Takes 33% Role Cop, 33% Bulletproof, 33% other pro-town non investigative role(AC or Doc) We prioritize taking the role cop, and mix in the Bulletproof to try to ward off the easy mafia snipes Next most important Town role is Bullet Bill in my eyes. #6 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #7 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #8 Takes 33% Bullet Bill, 33% Veteran, 33% AC or Doc Next is Tracker #9 takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #10 Takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #11 Takes 33% Tracker, 33% Meth Man, 33% AC or Doc Something like this, maybe joat should be mixed in with the 33%. General idea being that we prioritize having good town roles with possibly some people turning out vanilla, than having lots of mediocre town roles, but possibly not getting the really important ones. We would also have the last 4(?) drafting players pick investigative roles, just to make sure they actually get taken, and that the odds don't screw us. Please if your going to argue with this, argue the concept, not the specifics. Is this a good general idea, is there a better plan out there we could use. Or, if you want to amend the specifics please do, but be constructive: what are better percentages, more important roles, etc. Thoughts? How you going to determine which to pick. Flip a coin? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 02:40 Pandain wrote: Great post via the spreadsheet, however there are some things that should be kept in mind. Floridan will be incrediablly handy for the mafia. They can say one thing, and even vote for it, and then use the second lynch to vote against it. Or just do two votes for/against something. In addition, the late game this will mean the Floridan will be incredibly useful. For example, the situation in the last PYP(3 people left), the mafia almost certainly would have won as Foolishness would've had an extra vote. Compulsive Vigi: Perhaps the most dangerous role. Incrediablly useful for mafia/SK, and the only way I could see a reason for a townie claiming it is to at least give a chance the CV will hit mafia. * Darkness: Interesting, some ways I could see it being useful for town is that we get two checks/stuff from blue actions. Faster town circles? Idk.... Some Role combos to keep in mind: Town gets Compulsive Vigi, then we roleblock him every day. With that we can even use darkness(much less dangerous with no compulsive vigi.) Alignment cop checks someone, Jack of all Trades also checks same person. We find out whether alignment cop is verified or not. Agreed, Floridian is most useful for mafia (or SK, but there are better things for SK) as they can push lynches one way or another (killing a more active/desirable target or saving their own). One thought is that Floridian in town hands could change the LYLO day? For instance, it would force mafia to have an "extra" mafia player before the game auto-ends. So instead of GG at 4 mafia v 4 townies, it would be GG at 4v3. CompVig is a role that will be taken for sure. Obviously, we want it in town hands. Last game, Foolishness had to (for the most part) follow the town's wishes for CV'ing. It didn't hurt us too much (we lost because half our team went AWOL), but it forced us to help out the town by targeting suspicious people rather than big names ie. Qatol/Radfield. Darkness hmm... I think it's definitely anti-town, unless we're late game and know we have several power roles. On August 21 2010 02:45 rastaban wrote: Darkness is a horrible town role, and if taken should never be used. If someone uses it knowingly they should be lynched immediately. The reason is it denies town information and it keeps a lynch from occurring. It is no different than having everyone come in and voting abstain. Alignment cop checks someone, Jack of all Trades also checks same person. We find out whether alignment cop is verified or not. This doesn't work as mafia can get this role too, though we can find out if he is insane etc (or is that what you meant). Headed back to work now, I will be back in a few hours hopefully but I will keep tabs and can post on my break if needed. Yay weekend is almost here. Wouldn't that require the Alignment cop and JOAT claiming? Remember that we don't have PMs. Them claiming = ez target next night. On August 21 2010 02:51 Pandain wrote: Elaborate? I agree it should only be used in extreme situations(such as some SK's dead...more blue's not shooting other blue's due to misinformation/guessing) However I do see some potential in such circumstances where we can quickly get vital info. However...if the threat of mafia gets to great or SK's are too rampant or we don't have good roles, than I agree it should never be used. Whoops...that's what I meant. We find out whether he is insane or not. Combine that with darkness(TO BE DECIDED, and if we have compulsive vigi or the such, and even then risky.) and we will have a town circle after the first night. Again, these are ALL ideas. Just commenting on them as we haven't even picked roles yet n.n @Darkness: I mean, anything can be useful in an extreme situation. That doesn't make it any good for general use. Town Circle = targets for mafia. But true, if you're talking about the in-thread style of town circle, what you've been saying makes more sense now. + Show Spoiler [Radfield's post] + On August 21 2010 03:34 Radfield wrote: OK, lets get the ball rolling here. First things first: Roles. I've divided the roles into several categories, first is essential town roles. These are roles that we absolutely have to have. This is a 20 person game, and the mafia have a KP of one. SK also has a KP of 1. CompVig has a KP of 1, Town has lynch power of 1. This means 4 deaths per night, so we get 4 days before we're in trouble. Given this fact, we need as much investigative power as possible. This is how we will win the game. Essential Roles(Investigative) Role Cop - GF Watcher - GF, Mafia, SK Tracker - GF, Mafia, SK Joat - Mafia Bullet Bill - GF, Mafia, SK You may have noticed that Alignment Cop is not on this essential list. This is for two reasons. The sanity of the Alignment Cop is unknown, and the Alignment Cop cannot find either the Godfather, or the Serial Killer. Of those five roles, Watcher, Tracker and Bullet Bill are the most important, due to the fact they can find the Godfather and the Serial Killer. I cannot stress enough that these are the most important pro-town roles in the game. Yes there are a lot of roles that seem cooler or more fun, but these five roles are what will win us the game. Second is the Mafia roles: These are roles that are fantastic in mafia hands, mediocre or downright useless in Town hands: KP roles Comp Vig Bad Santa Vengeful Player Day Vig Other Floridian God Father Role Blocker Pardoner A few of these may stand out as being neutral as opposed to pro-mafia, but don't be fooled. ANYTHING that adds additional KP to the game is bad for the town. Why? Obviously first and foremost because they hasten the end of the game for the town, considering that town players have a very bad track record with extraneous KP. Second, not only does a missed shot eliminate a town player, it also eliminates a Power Role. Every player should be assumed to have a role, which means if a town player uses KP and misses, we may lose a vital role for the town. We have lynches as town, so lets kill players that way. Comp Vig: I've bolded CompVig in that list for a very good reason. I believe that this role is perhaps the most important in the game. In unknown hands (mafia hands) CompVig doubles the Mafia KP. In known hands(Town or Mafia) the CompVig doubles our lynch Power. Each day we vote on who the compvig will hit that night. IE, CompVig: Qatol. In PYP1, the CompVig was held by a mafia, but it didn't matter, because he followed the town direction and killed who we wanted killed. If the CompVig doesn't follow our direction they die. Yes, in PYP1 the CV only hit townies, but he hit scummy townies that were up for lynch, instead of hitting townies who were playing pro-town. This is a huge difference. I propose that whomever gets 1st pick takes CV. To not take CV as first pick is, in my eyes, extremely anti-town. We absolutely MUST know who has this role. Once we know, the power of the role is neutralized. Bad Santa is the other important role on this list, and is the most useful role on the list for town to have because it has a hint of investigative power, and gives information to the town. The other 6 roles are all pro-mafia roles. Some people are saying we as town should try to take these roles so that mafia cannot get them. I disagree with that sentiment. The better route to go, is to have every pro-town player avoid these roles like the plague(with the exception of CV). This means that our Role Cop(already essential for town), becomes a super cop. Because anyone who has any of those 6/7 roles is automatically a mafia member. None of those 6/7 roles are powerful enough to warrant us blocking the mafia from getting them, so we should steer clear of them and give ourselves a bonus on investigation. Also, by leaving DayVig, Bad Santa and Vengeful Player(??) for the mafia to take, it makes Bullet Bill much stronger by him not getting confused by pro-town players with guns. Other Good Roles for Town Alignment Cop Bulletproof Veteran Meth Man Doctor Doctor These roles don't really need any explanation. They are all much more pro-town then pro-mafia. This leaves the last three(unless I missed some): Mason Martyr Copy Cat Mason is powerful in the right hands. Martyr is so-so. Copy Cat is not real important in my eyes, given that we start with a lynch, so the mafia can't snipe the CV and then scoop it up. However, if we lynch someone on Day 1 who is Vanilla, then we run the risk of having mafia take the CV via the Copy Cat, which would be very bad for the town. For this reason, I think we should have whoever is at pick #5 be responsible for taking Copy Cat. Thoughts? If mafia chooses to take the pro-mafia roles, that's great. It gives us more effective investigative powers. If mafia chooses to avoid the pro-mafia roles, that's also great, as it keeps the most effective power roles from the mafia. We should probably have some way of divvying up the 5 essential roles so that we know they all get taken. Possibly divide the first 15 draft picks into 5 groups of 3, and give each group 1 of the essential roles. 1-3 Role Cop, 4-6 Tracker, 7-9 Watcher, etc. Then whichever player wants an investigative role knows which one they can pick. IE, the 7th player wants an investigative role, so he knows that his option is watcher. Something like that. Thoughts? To recap: We prioritize the essential 5 roles for town and make sure they get taken, no town players take any of the pro-mafia roles, first draft pick takes CV, 5th draft pick takes Copy Cat. The town has the advantage in this set-up, we just have to be smart enough to use it. Please address as many points here as you can. Agree or Disagree. This is when we make our plan for the entire game. Agreed, Alignment Cop is suxor. Keep in mind that Bullet Bill also finds the CV and JOAT. Actually, Day Vig isn't necessarily bad for the town. It's basically a double-lynch, though technically, one person does all the deciding. If you remember last game, I actually helped the town (though also the mafia) by taking you out, the SK. xD. Day Vig and Vengeful player are basically the same, except Vengeful player requires you to get lynched, lol. Both are still 1kp though. Floridian is mediocre, but what do you think about what I said above? (LYLO situation extended by 1) GF obviously useless. On August 17 2010 21:28 Ace wrote: KP is shared amongst the mafia, so a roleblocker wont stop the kill from going through unless it happens to be the last mafia left that gets blocked. However, the role that scum picked would be affected by a roleblock. I don't think RB is useless/mediocre... Probably a little better than average. Sure, it's more likely that you block a townie at first, but blocking a hit (SK) or preventing mafia from using whatever they have could be huge. Pardoner obviously useless for town. If anyone ever rolechecks that, I would suggest that they push to lynch that person/claim+lynch. @Copycat: I agree that it is a powerful role, and one we should watch. I also agree that we should designate NOW the person who takes it (based on their draft order). However, #5 seems high to me. I'd go for 8-10 for copycat though. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
omg this made my day | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 04:58 SouthRawrea wrote: What if mafia deliberately takes pro-town roles away from us? We do NOT want mafia taking away roles such as Role Cop, Bullet Bill, Alignment Cop and Jack of All Trades. Anything that adds KP to the mafia is deadly like the Compulsive Vigilante. An especially dangerous role is Day Vigilante as a mafia might just suicide to get rid of an open town circle just before the day ends. Basically, as town we have to take all the good roles first. Doubt it, as mafia have 4 players. Unless they're just trying to seem pro-town, it's a pretty big commitment on their part to take something like alignment cop (just an example). Role cop/JOAT is pretty useful to anyone. Also, just because a role is good for town, doesn't mean it can't be good for mafia/sk... keep that in mind. On August 21 2010 05:08 Radfield wrote: MORE CONTENT FROM RADFIELD! A potential flaw in avoiding the red roles and leaving them for mafia is if the mafia end up swiping the role cop or Bullet Bill, depriving us of our most important investigative roles. The key to leaving the red roles for mafia is that we have the role cop and Bullet Bill to sniff them out. Therefore I propose we prioritize getting these roles quite highly: #1 Takes Comp Vig #2 Takes Copy Cat #3 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #4 Takes 50% Role Cop, 50% Bulletproof #5 Takes 33% Role Cop, 33% Bulletproof, 33% other pro-town non investigative role(AC or Doc) We prioritize taking the role cop, and mix in the Bulletproof to try to ward off the easy mafia snipes Next most important Town role is Bullet Bill in my eyes. #6 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #7 Takes 50% Bullet Bill, 50% Veteran #8 Takes 33% Bullet Bill, 33% Veteran, 33% AC or Doc Next is Tracker #9 takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #10 Takes 50% Tracker, 50% Meth Man #11 Takes 33% Tracker, 33% Meth Man, 33% AC or Doc Something like this, maybe joat should be mixed in with the 33%. General idea being that we prioritize having good town roles with possibly some people turning out vanilla, than having lots of mediocre town roles, but possibly not getting the really important ones. We would also have the last 4(?) drafting players pick investigative roles, just to make sure they actually get taken, and that the odds don't screw us. I still disagree about the copycat. Why so high? I guess it lets us confirm who has that role, but we're technically doing that with your list right now (#1 CV, #2 CC). I'd put JOAT/Role cop at #2 - need to look over the roles again though, so don't quote me on that. Please if your going to argue with this, argue the concept, not the specifics. Is this a good general idea, is there a better plan out there we could use. Or, if you want to amend the specifics please do, but be constructive: what are better percentages, more important roles, etc. Thoughts? lol. I should read in entirety before arguing. I like the concept. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:53 bumatlarge wrote: Wouldnt watcher be really strong in red hands? Saying not to pick it is a free invite for mafia tto have really useful blue hunting prowess? Im still kinda confused, do we know the order in which people pick roles? How is the watcher useful to anyone at all? lol. Read the OP about the draft. Based on everyone's number choice, Ace will create the role-picking order. Then, we PM him what role we want. That's the basics, OP has more. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:58 DarthThienAn wrote: Doubt it, as mafia have 4 players. Unless they're just trying to seem pro-town, it's a pretty big commitment on their part to take something like alignment cop (just an example). Role cop/JOAT is pretty useful to anyone. How do you know mafia's got only 4 people...it's not listed in OP how many there are... | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:09 chaoser wrote: How do you know mafia's got only 4 people...it's not listed in OP how many there are... 20 player game, it's pretty standard to have 4 mafia. Not to mention last game there were 4 mafia, and the setup is the same +- a few roles. But I'm also mafia in PYP again ^^. | ||
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SouthRawrea
Canada608 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:13 DarthThienAn wrote: 20 player game, it's pretty standard to have 4 mafia. Not to mention last game there were 4 mafia, and the setup is the same +- a few roles. But I'm also mafia in PYP again ^^. On August 05 2010 11:38 Ace wrote: This game is Semi-Open. The amount of Mafia and possible SKs are hidden. Town count is hidden. Possible roles are open. It's very possible he switched up the types of town power roles to better variants (ex: Sane cops) which would give slight advantages to town. We also have 1 more player than the last PYP. However, this is nothing to jump on as it is most likely that you just considered the chances of that happening negligible. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:20 SouthRawrea wrote: It's very possible he switched up the types of town power roles to better variants (ex: Sane cops) which would give slight advantages to town. We also have 1 more player than the last PYP. However, this is nothing to jump on as it is most likely that you just considered the chances of that happening negligible. Hm. But he said that he was rolling the sanities after, depending on whether it was mafia/town who got the relevant role. And call me naive, but I'll give Ace the benefit of the doubt on that one. Looking at the last setup vs this setup, I'm even more convinced that there are 4 mafia - if anything, there would be less. Out of the new roles, you have Martyr (pretty weak role, though no one would use it except town), Watcher (useless role imo), Bullet Bill (almost as good role cop, pro-town. helps mafia too btw, better targets/find the sk), Bad Santa (more pro-mafia than town), Traitor (I don't know what to make of this one, but it's not pro-town), and Prince of Darkness (pro-mafia). So 2-3 useless roles, 1-2 (if you count BS) pro-town roles, and 3-4 pro-mafia roles (depending on how you look at Traitor). So overall, new roles = help mafia. Other than that, I'm curious about this: You are a Vanilla Serial Killer! Every night you can choose to kill 1 player. You show up Innocent to alignment checks and are bulletproof at night. Role checks reveal whatever role you picked in your draft, if you don't get a role you show up as Vanilla SK. Your kills also go through bulletproof vests. You win by killing everyone else and being the last surviving player. 6.)What happens if a RoleCop checks someone without a role? The result they get back is VANILLA. Otherwise the RC would be almost better than the Alignment Cop in this setup which would make no sense. Ace, can you clarify what a Vanilla SK would show up as? | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:24 chaoser wrote: so how about i just get daytime vigi and shoot you for shits and giggles? =] Do it ^^. DayVig such a good role, it's unstoppable. lol. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
I also saw someone (radfield I think?) picked 5 Everyone should claim what they're picking | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Noone else pick 7 unless you're mafia. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:09 chaoser wrote: How do you know mafia's got only 4 people...it's not listed in OP how many there are... Great catch Chaoser. (definitely picking you once I get Mason XD). Usually I don't suspect people on day 1 but this was such a big slip up. Any plan that involves people should be wary of Darth now. | ||
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