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On August 07 2010 05:34 SouthRawrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:26 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On August 07 2010 05:05 SouthRawrea wrote:
I keep deleting what I type lol because I think what if Pyrrhusloxia is really a ninja, we should get him lynched so our future Town-sided ninja doesn't waste a kill. Then I think oh shit what if he's a veteran trying to get cleared for tomorrow. Then I think what if he's a red role. Then I read the day post and wonder. WTF is a bus driver ninja and does it count in the number of ninjas? If it does and Pyrr's leak was real, he should be removed from the game which he is not. So... he's lying or the bus driver ninja doesn't count/ isn't real. Time for PMing questions to flamewheel. I've noticed Divinek talking about how the Ninja would be breaking rules and ruining the game and would be removed from the game if he teamed up with town. I've also now noticed you talking about how if I merely posted the number of ninjas in the thread correctly I should be removed from the game. There's nothing about this in the rules description for Ninja as far as I can tell. Perhaps you two got some stern words from flamewheel in the role pm? You mis-read my post. WHEN THE NINJA WINS HE IS REMOVED FROM THE GAME. THUS IF BUS DRIVER NINJA AND VER OR W.E WERE REALLY NINJAS YOU'D BE GONE CUZ U'D HAVE WON. lol. Please keep in mind that I didn't understand that the day 1 post was a joke at the time i wrote this.
its not a joke...
Anyway, I don't really think we need to worry about the Ninjas right now. I mean, as of right now it's not like anyone knows who the Ninjas are and until at least after this night, the Ninja's WONT talk to anyone because they don't know whether someone is a ninja or not.
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Err it was just for the story so.. kinda like a joke. None of those people were actually in the game. I also mentioned that this was a plan for later as we have none as of now.
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On August 07 2010 06:07 SouthRawrea wrote:
Err it was just for the story so.. kinda like a joke. None of those people were actually in the game. I also mentioned that this was a plan for later as we have none as of now.
The people aren't in it, but the roles are still there. Why do you think flamewheel the "godfather" was killed. Is godfather made up too? :p.
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Bus driver ninja is made up for sure lol.
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On August 07 2010 06:03 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:34 SouthRawrea wrote:On August 07 2010 05:26 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On August 07 2010 05:05 SouthRawrea wrote:
I keep deleting what I type lol because I think what if Pyrrhusloxia is really a ninja, we should get him lynched so our future Town-sided ninja doesn't waste a kill. Then I think oh shit what if he's a veteran trying to get cleared for tomorrow. Then I think what if he's a red role. Then I read the day post and wonder. WTF is a bus driver ninja and does it count in the number of ninjas? If it does and Pyrr's leak was real, he should be removed from the game which he is not. So... he's lying or the bus driver ninja doesn't count/ isn't real. Time for PMing questions to flamewheel. I've noticed Divinek talking about how the Ninja would be breaking rules and ruining the game and would be removed from the game if he teamed up with town. I've also now noticed you talking about how if I merely posted the number of ninjas in the thread correctly I should be removed from the game. There's nothing about this in the rules description for Ninja as far as I can tell. Perhaps you two got some stern words from flamewheel in the role pm? You mis-read my post. WHEN THE NINJA WINS HE IS REMOVED FROM THE GAME. THUS IF BUS DRIVER NINJA AND VER OR W.E WERE REALLY NINJAS YOU'D BE GONE CUZ U'D HAVE WON. lol. Please keep in mind that I didn't understand that the day 1 post was a joke at the time i wrote this. its not a joke... Anyway, I don't really think we need to worry about the Ninjas right now. I mean, as of right now it's not like anyone knows who the Ninjas are and until at least after this night, the Ninja's WONT talk to anyone because they don't know whether someone is a ninja or not.
By joke I think South Rawrea meant that he didn't realize that those weren't actual night actions that got carried out by signed up players.
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Here is the updated list of inactives:
0 posts:
Roffles
Hesmyrr
Artanis[xp]
Small 1 liners:
Laan
+ Show Spoiler +On August 06 2010 15:03 Iaaan wrote:
Hi guys. I haven't read any posts past page 10 yet, but I will probably tomorrow, its late today :/ All I have to add right now is, we really need to be cutting down on the spam as townies, I'm sure I don't need to explain how spam makes it easier for the mafia to get by just by posting BS, thus letting them hide amongst the spam. That is all.
Love1another
+ Show Spoiler +On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote:I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz 
Posted substantially since the last list:
+ Show Spoiler +SouthRawrea
iNfuNdiBuLuM (sorry about spelling your name wrong last time it was a copy paste error I didn't notice.)
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 06 2010 22:28 LSB wrote:A bit of a late reply, but some of us sleep My Big Ninja PostOkay, I skimmed through XXII In XXII there were 4 assassins The first assassin got killed on the first day due to inactivity The 2nd and Third assassins got killed by other assassins on night 2. So from older games, the assassin's biggest danger are other assassinsShow nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:08 DarthThienAn wrote:
Hmm. I agree that Ninjas can be very powerful. But I don't really like your breakdown.
Ally with mafia: This requires the Ninja to know who the mafia are. It also requires the Ninja to reveal who he is, which is retarded, because that makes him vulnerable, and his objective is to SURVIVE. So this is almost impossible, unless the Ninja takes a plunge based on his instincts... which is pretty silly.
Let's assume that he finds a mafia through rolecheck though (talking about later in the game now). The Ninja still has no protection. He has no way of guaranteeing that the mafia won't kill him during the night. And he can't post after death, so all the power to the mafia there. There's no collateral, no guarantee. And mafia will never know who a ninja is, except through a DT, which is also a ridiculous situation unless the DT claims to the GF after a check. So it only really makes sense for the Ninja to PM the mafia member. But why would he do that? The mafia use up his night hits, and then kill him, if they want to. Not to mention, the Ninja just wants to the kill the other ninjas. He doesn't care about town/mafia dying.
Ally with Town: this is a bit more likely, but still requires the ninja to know those people. But again, why would a ninja be interested in doing this? He just wants to kill the other ninjas. Unless he gets in contact with DT, there is no benefit for him.
Ninja caught by DT: Are you kidding me? lol. People reading, this is an example of a bad plan. The ninja is a VIGILANTE. He can easily kill the DT if the DT threatens to expose him.
... -_-
I agree with your Mafia Analysis, but not your Town analysis. The Ninja could get Medic protection, and DT help. Just remember, the Ninja obviously won't just say 'hullo' to a random townie. The Ninja would try to find a DT/Medic As for your Ninja caught by DT analysis, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The Ninja caught by DT plan isn't one about working together, it's about the DT keeping the Ninja on a short least Here's how it would work out 1) DT identifies Ninja 2) DT contacts Ninja through a mouth, threatens Ninja. Says "You better work with me or I'm exposing you the day after you don't" Ninja could respond by 1) Killing the Mouth, but then he would get killed himself loosing the game 2) Feeding the DT incorrect information. But the DT could just ask for Night Kills 3) Following the DT and hope the other ninjas would die soon Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:01 Divinek wrote:
or they could just play normally and not listen to anyone and do as their role meant to do
it would be ridiculous for them to try and coordinate with town, obviously easy to do with mafia once they found them but...why would they do this?
it'd be a perfectly dick way to ruin a game
They could play normally, however, it's more of a game of how much risk is the ninja willing to take. A little risk could make the Ninja invincible with another pair of eyes. As for ruining the game. Here's my diagram+ Show Spoiler +NOTES: Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 19:19 youngminii wrote:On July 29 2010 13:12 flamewheel wrote:
Ninja (Ninja)
You will know how many other Ninjas reside within the town, but the town will not.
On August 06 2010 19:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Also, 9 people will lie. You forgot ninjas, youngminii. So we will get at least 9 liars to pick through, 3 of which will be ninjas we don't need to kill. Actually, we will have at least 10 liars because I already sent the following PM to BM: Uh oh, someone made a huge blunder. Pyrr is very likely a ninja. Assume that Pyrr is a Ninja, and there is only 3 in the town. Pyrr will be killed night one, so there will be only 2 Ninjas.
With the ninja allying with town thing, basically, the medic would be trading their services for the ninja's services..but the ninja could just lie and get protection. So it's not in the interest of the medic to do that.
The DT can't control the ninja... he has no power. He has no way of guaranteeing that he'll live to out the ninja. The ninja can hit him whenever he feels like it. The only way is to PM someone else, and even then, you're sacrificing a DT for a ninja? No. Best to leave the ninjas alone if you're a DT.
Hmm. I guess it makes more sense with a mouth. You should have mentioned that before -_-.
+ Show Spoiler + On August 06 2010 23:39 KF91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:54 Jayme wrote:
I still hate voting for inactives on day one because it's so pointless.
and the random voting stage is already over after only a few hours...???? Oh incoming bandwagon I believe that this is one of the best ways to start off Day 1; mostly because like it was mentioned before, people do make mistakes and they shouldn't be lynched right away because of a single mistake they made on Day 1. Plus it promotes involvement, but I'm sure everyone's heard this countless times already. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 18:10 DarthThienAn wrote:
BM, you're basically introducing an incredibly scummy plan. If you really think mass roleclaim would be beneficial, then please explain why. And "It worked in other games" is not a reason, seeing as how every setup is different. How can you say everyone claiming would be beneficial if you don't even know how many blues we have? Until you elaborate, my vote is on you, even if I don't like the bandwagon on you.
"The mafia will be forced to lie, and if we coordinate early enough there is no way we can lose all of our good pieces."
Mafia can easily claim townie, or a random blue. We don't know how many of each role there is. So we wouldn't be able to call any of them out on their fake claims. So how would we catch a mafia lying, unless they claimed a role that requires results that we can see?
##vote Bill Murray From what I know of BM, this is classic BM to me (Although the last game I played with him was XXII, so things could have changed.). He promotes some weird plan and the town attacks him. He ends up being Godfather. But from what I can remember, he also pushes plans like these when he's a townie as well. From BM's point of view, this is just a trap for the mafia, because although it would be harder for the town to sift through all the liars in a mass-role claim, it would be harder for the mafia to organize who would claim as what. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote:I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz Um, hi? If you have time, feel free to type more, since an "activity-check" post won't save you from getting lynched forever. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 22:52 rastaban wrote:
I just realized spoiler my plan made it less likely to be seen and critiqued which defeated its purpose so here it is again
Plan, Please Review
It involves 1 person role claiming TODAY. we then protect this person and use them as a confirmed townie. Now here is where the plan takes shape. Since mafia can stack our protection will fail and he will die, but wait we actually have something even better. a Bus Driver. The bus driver will now perpetually Bus our claimant.
Instead of the bus driver being an element of chaos he becomes the towns best medic. Regardless of if they Triple stack him he won't die. Even in the hands of a beginner this role would be now be powerful as they would be certain to using it for good. Another benefit is that it gives the blue roles the knowledge of if they hit the bus driver.
Say for a minute that we use the vigilante. Now we can be sure there is only one in this game since it is such a strong role. If a DT checks someone and he gets vigilante then he knows he hit the other end of the chain and will know to disregard that nights reading. We have just eliminated the early chaos that this role generates. The other thing is that the mafia now knows if they risk hitting vig there is a chance it will fire back on them.
Ok now I used vig in this example because he seems the best candidate but I could be wrong so town can advise. If we have the vig claim we know there will be only 1 (since otherwise town KP would be crazy) if we get 2 then we lynch both. This means we trade 1 vigilante for 1 Red with a 50% chance that the real vig stays alive.
There are a few outliers that could happen and I am considering them now but thought I would put this plan out as early as possible so in case we go with it all parties would have the most time to see what was going on possible. From what I see, bad plan. So much risk for the town while the mafia has to give a small effort to make sure that the town is screwed over. - If mafia roleclaims as a blue, this plan won't work period. - If a real blue does roleclaim, but the bus driver buses the wrong person, we could hit another blue (Perhaps one of out DTs or medics) - The mafia has power-roles that could turn this plan onto the town and the town could be lynching townies on Day 2/3 depending on if this plan is actually implemented. IMO, single roleclaims=bad at any point of the game. Or actually, any type of roleclaims; while it may prove useful to the town, it will always help mafia in killing blues.
And from what I know about BM, he has the potential to play like an idiot both when he is mafia and townie. So I don’t judge based on playstyle, I judge based on what has happened in THIS game. And his plan is retarded, hence my voting for him. He still hasn’t offered any reasoning as to why this would ever be a good plan. And if it’s a trap, then it’s not a very good one, as no one is going to agree with it, and he’s not even trying to pretend like he agrees with it.
On August 07 2010 05:18 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
The only thing really sticking out to me is the strange and over-reacting response to BM's plan by DTA and Pyrr.
Bill Murray's roleclaim was horrible, since there are concealed counts. In fact, it is not only stupid but it is so entirely transparently stupid that I'm sure BM knew it was bad when he posted it. So why did he post it then?
Because mafia love to shoot down stupid townie plans, since it makes them appear pro-town. The difficulty is that good town players will also shoot down those same plans, since they want to win the game and all that.
Right now anyone voting for BM is either jumping the gun or behaving suspiciously.
Lol, is it my fault that I don’t want the town to screw itself over? I have no guarantees about anyone’s intelligence here. Example: Bill Murray.
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Chronicle #1 – The Despairing ones.
All was quiet. All was right. That is when everything changed. In a brilliant flash of lights we all awoke. We all ran, throwing on whatever we could find, to the source of the sudden flash. It was there we stood in horror and shock. The mutilated bodies of Ver, Incognito, Flamewheel and Qatol could be seen amongst the wreckage of the shattered bus. Some snapped out of it sooner than others, tending to the nearby fires, and some locking down the scene. What seen however cannot be unseen. The damage done the town slipped back into an uneasy sleep, a sleep where nightmares wait.
The town fell into chaos quickly, almost as quickly as the explosion, with no hope in obvious sight. People showed their fear by quickly setting up a stage. Upon it laid a block with an axe stuck in it. Upon the stage beside the block was series of small boxes. Each box clearly labeled with names. The names of all those remaining. Mob mentality had taken us. Fear plagued our thoughts. Our thoughts had led us to this; led us to the stance of kill or be killed. We are now animals trying to survive. Caged in by our instincts we begin to argue.
Plans were formed and attacked; arguments lead to heated words and rash ballots. Others simply resigned to the savagery of the situation silently voted. Were they praying for our mutual survival or purely their own? Time may tell but now nothing is certain. Faith and hope are all we have left to keep us from complete barbarism.
Throughout this all, I pulled myself away. I recognized the severity of the situation; I knew what had to be done. Sliding into the town’s coffee shop I pulled out my computer. I began to type. The words began to form, and the recording began. It may be too late to save us, but for those that read my records later, please understand what we did we did to survive and always remember that none of us wanted this to happen.
It is time to end this entry; I shall leave the current ballot tallies for histories sake. Heaven save us when salvation or damnation will be found at the end a blade.
~ Vayesh Moru
+ Show Spoiler +
BillMurray - 4
SouthRawrea
Larjarse
Pyrrhuloxia
DarthThienAn
Misder – 1
Divinek
Chezinu – 1
Pandain
Divinek – 1
Bumatlarge
Youngminii – 1
Jayme
Pyrrhuloxia – 1
BillMurray
Love1Another – 3
Rastaban
Chaoser
Kf91
Rastaban – 1
Love1another
Amber[light] – 2
Amber[light]
Xelin
DarthThienAn – 1
Youngminii
Artanis[xp] – 1
Tree.hugger
Brownbear – 1
~opz~
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On August 07 2010 07:34 VayeshMoru wrote:Chronicle #1 – The Despairing ones. All was quiet. All was right. That is when everything changed. In a brilliant flash of lights we all awoke. We all ran, throwing on whatever we could find, to the source of the sudden flash. It was there we stood in horror and shock. The mutilated bodies of Ver, Incognito, Flamewheel and Qatol could be seen amongst the wreckage of the shattered bus. Some snapped out of it sooner than others, tending to the nearby fires, and some locking down the scene. What seen however cannot be unseen. The damage done the town slipped back into an uneasy sleep, a sleep where nightmares wait. The town fell into chaos quickly, almost as quickly as the explosion, with no hope in obvious sight. People showed their fear by quickly setting up a stage. Upon it laid a block with an axe stuck in it. Upon the stage beside the block was series of small boxes. Each box clearly labeled with names. The names of all those remaining. Mob mentality had taken us. Fear plagued our thoughts. Our thoughts had led us to this; led us to the stance of kill or be killed. We are now animals trying to survive. Caged in by our instincts we begin to argue. Plans were formed and attacked; arguments lead to heated words and rash ballots. Others simply resigned to the savagery of the situation silently voted. Were they praying for our mutual survival or purely their own? Time may tell but now nothing is certain. Faith and hope are all we have left to keep us from complete barbarism. Throughout this all, I pulled myself away. I recognized the severity of the situation; I knew what had to be done. Sliding into the town’s coffee shop I pulled out my computer. I began to type. The words began to form, and the recording began. It may be too late to save us, but for those that read my records later, please understand what we did we did to survive and always remember that none of us wanted this to happen. It is time to end this entry; I shall leave the current ballot tallies for histories sake. Heaven save us when salvation or damnation will be found at the end a blade. ~ Vayesh Moru + Show Spoiler +
BillMurray - 4
SouthRawrea
Larjarse
Pyrrhuloxia
DarthThienAn
Misder – 1
Divinek
Chezinu – 1
Pandain
Divinek – 1
Bumatlarge
Youngminii – 1
Jayme
Pyrrhuloxia – 1
BillMurray
Love1Another – 3
Rastaban
Chaoser
Kf91
Rastaban – 1
Love1another
Amber[light] – 2
Amber[light]
Xelin
DarthThienAn – 1
Youngminii
Artanis[xp] – 1
Tree.hugger
Brownbear – 1
~opz~
yup, its chezinu on an alt, and he's going to unite the scribe finding mission with VM. the message will be clarified as something involving him.
Still, really epic.
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wow....one chezinu I can take...two though? GG
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On August 06 2010 22:18 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 17:40 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On August 06 2010 17:26 Bill Murray wrote:As a town, we would really do well to coordinate and roleclaim in my opinion. Bluesniping would be easier, but honestly here at TL we are great at blue sniping. I haven't even HEARD the term blue sniping elsewhere. I'm guessing it comes from muta micro, but I'm not sure. My suggestion is that we coordinate better if we know what units we have on the field. The mafia will be forced to lie, and if we coordinate early enough there is no way we can lose all of our good pieces. Every game where I've seen people nameclaim or roleclaim I've seen the town win as far as I can remember. Do you guys want to win? I am very competitive. I know I like to. I will risk my life for you guys. Feel free to claim to me. If everyone would just trust me this one time, we could have an epic game. Dude, just shut up and let us kill you already before I figure out who the sixth and final member of your team is. Y'all have been so obvious about this when you should have just kept your cool and waited for people to change their joke votes. Instead, you freaked out with well over 24 hours left in the day and only a few votes on your precious comedian. If anyone legit claims to him you should be permanently banned from TL mafia. I'm not really joking although I am too kind hearted to follow through on this. Feel free to spam his inbox with joke claims, though, it could distract him from coordinating what they do next. In fact, I encourage this. ##vote Bill Murray Lol best post of the last 5 pages. Sorry BM I think a mass roleclaim is a terrible idea. I never like the idea in any setup for mafia since it really can mess up the flow of the game. Not to mention people (especially townies) have this odd obsession with lying. Let's review your last game that you hosted.... people were lying left and right about their roles. It definitely hurt the town as we had to focus on the liars and much of the attention was drawn off of suspicious players, like BC who was actually mafia. I'm a bigger advocate of town circles and mob mentality. It's not that I think this system works better in all instances, but it keeps the mafia on their toes for much of the game. If we all roleclaim honestly then they have a perfect list of all of the roles in the game. I'm not going to vote for you, yet. However I will reconsider if the day turns out a little differently.
that's not what i was trying to do here, though, amber. i was trying to create confusion and get information out of the people who would be against roleclaiming (mafia and ninjas). Do you honestly believe I expected a single person to actually roleclaim to me? I did, but it was through a PM, not in the thread. Why would I ever do that in the thread? Because my role is the only role i know. I'm willing to back off of this, because it was a ploy, and now i'm going to help the town in more traditional ways.
Also, mad props to chezinu for that video
On August 06 2010 22:28 LSB wrote:A bit of a late reply, but some of us sleep My Big Ninja PostOkay, I skimmed through XXII In XXII there were 4 assassins The first assassin got killed on the first day due to inactivity The 2nd and Third assassins got killed by other assassins on night 2. So from older games, the assassin's biggest danger are other assassinsShow nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:08 DarthThienAn wrote:
Hmm. I agree that Ninjas can be very powerful. But I don't really like your breakdown.
Ally with mafia: This requires the Ninja to know who the mafia are. It also requires the Ninja to reveal who he is, which is retarded, because that makes him vulnerable, and his objective is to SURVIVE. So this is almost impossible, unless the Ninja takes a plunge based on his instincts... which is pretty silly.
Let's assume that he finds a mafia through rolecheck though (talking about later in the game now). The Ninja still has no protection. He has no way of guaranteeing that the mafia won't kill him during the night. And he can't post after death, so all the power to the mafia there. There's no collateral, no guarantee. And mafia will never know who a ninja is, except through a DT, which is also a ridiculous situation unless the DT claims to the GF after a check. So it only really makes sense for the Ninja to PM the mafia member. But why would he do that? The mafia use up his night hits, and then kill him, if they want to. Not to mention, the Ninja just wants to the kill the other ninjas. He doesn't care about town/mafia dying.
Ally with Town: this is a bit more likely, but still requires the ninja to know those people. But again, why would a ninja be interested in doing this? He just wants to kill the other ninjas. Unless he gets in contact with DT, there is no benefit for him.
Ninja caught by DT: Are you kidding me? lol. People reading, this is an example of a bad plan. The ninja is a VIGILANTE. He can easily kill the DT if the DT threatens to expose him.
... -_-
I agree with your Mafia Analysis, but not your Town analysis. The Ninja could get Medic protection, and DT help. Just remember, the Ninja obviously won't just say 'hullo' to a random townie. The Ninja would try to find a DT/Medic As for your Ninja caught by DT analysis, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The Ninja caught by DT plan isn't one about working together, it's about the DT keeping the Ninja on a short least Here's how it would work out 1) DT identifies Ninja 2) DT contacts Ninja through a mouth, threatens Ninja. Says "You better work with me or I'm exposing you the day after you don't" Ninja could respond by 1) Killing the Mouth, but then he would get killed himself loosing the game 2) Feeding the DT incorrect information. But the DT could just ask for Night Kills 3) Following the DT and hope the other ninjas would die soon Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:01 Divinek wrote:
or they could just play normally and not listen to anyone and do as their role meant to do
it would be ridiculous for them to try and coordinate with town, obviously easy to do with mafia once they found them but...why would they do this?
it'd be a perfectly dick way to ruin a game
They could play normally, however, it's more of a game of how much risk is the ninja willing to take. A little risk could make the Ninja invincible with another pair of eyes. As for ruining the game. Here's my diagram+ Show Spoiler +NOTES: Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 19:19 youngminii wrote:On July 29 2010 13:12 flamewheel wrote:
Ninja (Ninja)
You will know how many other Ninjas reside within the town, but the town will not.
On August 06 2010 19:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Also, 9 people will lie. You forgot ninjas, youngminii. So we will get at least 9 liars to pick through, 3 of which will be ninjas we don't need to kill. Actually, we will have at least 10 liars because I already sent the following PM to BM: Uh oh, someone made a huge blunder. Pyrr is very likely a ninja. Assume that Pyrr is a Ninja, and there is only 3 in the town. Pyrr will be killed night one, so there will be only 2 Ninjas.
I doubt any ninja would actually kill him. They would investigate him first. I also don't see why people are even worrying about the ninjas that much at this point. The only other game I've played with them, when I was mafia, the only people who were really saying anything about them in the thread were the mafia themselves. I feel like we should look at the people who are doing this. The reason that mafia do this is because it gives them a truthful statement about wanting to "out a scummy slot", because ninjas are in fact non-town, and by trying to out them, the mafia look pro-town. If you are town, then, and are discussing this, stop. Start trying to find reds.
Pyrrhuloxia imo wouldn't have been playing the way he was if he was red, which is why I haven't voted for him. DTA, though, maybe. I might change my vote to him.
On August 06 2010 22:29 LSB wrote:
And I am against Roleclaim.
Their's no way we can keep track of who would lie. And I would assume that Blue Roles would lie to. Cause a role claim is a great way to give a 'who to hit' list to the mafia.
So I would assume the final count of the role-claim would be 30 townies, not very helpful
I agree with lying if you're a certain blue. If you're the veteran, you should say you're a role you'd want to be hit in the night. This normally would be a great strategy, but less so in this game. I dislike how in the past few games I've played in multiple roles have multiple night lives. This really inhibits the plan that I would use as a veteran, so I don't know what to do.
What we should do going forward is try to get our watcher and stalker to coordinate, which is why I wanted people to roleclaim to me in the first place.
On August 06 2010 23:14 XeliN wrote:
For the record in my brief experience of playing mafia games I know mafia HATE suggestions of mass role claiming, I am far more suspicious of Pyrr's extreme vehemence against the idea than I am of Bills suggestion.
Not entirely sure it would work, in truth I havent actually read the post Bill made yet, but just wanted to say Mafia typically hate the idea of town mass roleclaiming, it forces them into a difficult position where they have to be very careful about what they post//claim.
Although the fact this is a closed setup (role amounts arn't revealed) makes a mass claim strategy flawed from the outset.
Also be dubious of people attempting to cast extreme suspicion on others this early in the game, A good example of such would be:
"I think BM is very likely to live for a couple of days, but if things start going downhill he should be somewhere on the top of our hitlists"
If more people thought like this, my plan would have been less of a ploy, and an actual strategy. If anything, I was just hoping to know who the tracker was, but I didn't even expect that.
On August 06 2010 23:39 KF91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:54 Jayme wrote:
I still hate voting for inactives on day one because it's so pointless.
and the random voting stage is already over after only a few hours...???? Oh incoming bandwagon I believe that this is one of the best ways to start off Day 1; mostly because like it was mentioned before, people do make mistakes and they shouldn't be lynched right away because of a single mistake they made on Day 1. Plus it promotes involvement, but I'm sure everyone's heard this countless times already. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 18:10 DarthThienAn wrote:
BM, you're basically introducing an incredibly scummy plan. If you really think mass roleclaim would be beneficial, then please explain why. And "It worked in other games" is not a reason, seeing as how every setup is different. How can you say everyone claiming would be beneficial if you don't even know how many blues we have? Until you elaborate, my vote is on you, even if I don't like the bandwagon on you.
"The mafia will be forced to lie, and if we coordinate early enough there is no way we can lose all of our good pieces."
Mafia can easily claim townie, or a random blue. We don't know how many of each role there is. So we wouldn't be able to call any of them out on their fake claims. So how would we catch a mafia lying, unless they claimed a role that requires results that we can see?
##vote Bill Murray From what I know of BM, this is classic BM to me (Although the last game I played with him was XXII, so things could have changed.). He promotes some weird plan and the town attacks him. He ends up being Godfather. But from what I can remember, he also pushes plans like these when he's a townie as well. From BM's point of view, this is just a trap for the mafia, because although it would be harder for the town to sift through all the liars in a mass-role claim, it would be harder for the mafia to organize who would claim as what. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote:I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz Um, hi? If you have time, feel free to type more, since an "activity-check" post won't save you from getting lynched forever. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 22:52 rastaban wrote:
I just realized spoiler my plan made it less likely to be seen and critiqued which defeated its purpose so here it is again
Plan, Please Review
It involves 1 person role claiming TODAY. we then protect this person and use them as a confirmed townie. Now here is where the plan takes shape. Since mafia can stack our protection will fail and he will die, but wait we actually have something even better. a Bus Driver. The bus driver will now perpetually Bus our claimant.
Instead of the bus driver being an element of chaos he becomes the towns best medic. Regardless of if they Triple stack him he won't die. Even in the hands of a beginner this role would be now be powerful as they would be certain to using it for good. Another benefit is that it gives the blue roles the knowledge of if they hit the bus driver.
Say for a minute that we use the vigilante. Now we can be sure there is only one in this game since it is such a strong role. If a DT checks someone and he gets vigilante then he knows he hit the other end of the chain and will know to disregard that nights reading. We have just eliminated the early chaos that this role generates. The other thing is that the mafia now knows if they risk hitting vig there is a chance it will fire back on them.
Ok now I used vig in this example because he seems the best candidate but I could be wrong so town can advise. If we have the vig claim we know there will be only 1 (since otherwise town KP would be crazy) if we get 2 then we lynch both. This means we trade 1 vigilante for 1 Red with a 50% chance that the real vig stays alive.
There are a few outliers that could happen and I am considering them now but thought I would put this plan out as early as possible so in case we go with it all parties would have the most time to see what was going on possible. From what I see, bad plan. So much risk for the town while the mafia has to give a small effort to make sure that the town is screwed over. - If mafia roleclaims as a blue, this plan won't work period. - If a real blue does roleclaim, but the bus driver buses the wrong person, we could hit another blue (Perhaps one of out DTs or medics) - The mafia has power-roles that could turn this plan onto the town and the town could be lynching townies on Day 2/3 depending on if this plan is actually implemented. IMO, single roleclaims=bad at any point of the game. Or actually, any type of roleclaims; while it may prove useful to the town, it will always help mafia in killing blues.
I disagree since we have a watcher and stalker/tracker. We can use these roles to confirm the tracker with a single roleclaim.
On August 07 2010 07:15 DarthThienAn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 06 2010 22:28 LSB wrote:A bit of a late reply, but some of us sleep My Big Ninja PostOkay, I skimmed through XXII In XXII there were 4 assassins The first assassin got killed on the first day due to inactivity The 2nd and Third assassins got killed by other assassins on night 2. So from older games, the assassin's biggest danger are other assassinsShow nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:08 DarthThienAn wrote:
Hmm. I agree that Ninjas can be very powerful. But I don't really like your breakdown.
Ally with mafia: This requires the Ninja to know who the mafia are. It also requires the Ninja to reveal who he is, which is retarded, because that makes him vulnerable, and his objective is to SURVIVE. So this is almost impossible, unless the Ninja takes a plunge based on his instincts... which is pretty silly.
Let's assume that he finds a mafia through rolecheck though (talking about later in the game now). The Ninja still has no protection. He has no way of guaranteeing that the mafia won't kill him during the night. And he can't post after death, so all the power to the mafia there. There's no collateral, no guarantee. And mafia will never know who a ninja is, except through a DT, which is also a ridiculous situation unless the DT claims to the GF after a check. So it only really makes sense for the Ninja to PM the mafia member. But why would he do that? The mafia use up his night hits, and then kill him, if they want to. Not to mention, the Ninja just wants to the kill the other ninjas. He doesn't care about town/mafia dying.
Ally with Town: this is a bit more likely, but still requires the ninja to know those people. But again, why would a ninja be interested in doing this? He just wants to kill the other ninjas. Unless he gets in contact with DT, there is no benefit for him.
Ninja caught by DT: Are you kidding me? lol. People reading, this is an example of a bad plan. The ninja is a VIGILANTE. He can easily kill the DT if the DT threatens to expose him.
... -_-
I agree with your Mafia Analysis, but not your Town analysis. The Ninja could get Medic protection, and DT help. Just remember, the Ninja obviously won't just say 'hullo' to a random townie. The Ninja would try to find a DT/Medic As for your Ninja caught by DT analysis, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The Ninja caught by DT plan isn't one about working together, it's about the DT keeping the Ninja on a short least Here's how it would work out 1) DT identifies Ninja 2) DT contacts Ninja through a mouth, threatens Ninja. Says "You better work with me or I'm exposing you the day after you don't" Ninja could respond by 1) Killing the Mouth, but then he would get killed himself loosing the game 2) Feeding the DT incorrect information. But the DT could just ask for Night Kills 3) Following the DT and hope the other ninjas would die soon Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 12:01 Divinek wrote:
or they could just play normally and not listen to anyone and do as their role meant to do
it would be ridiculous for them to try and coordinate with town, obviously easy to do with mafia once they found them but...why would they do this?
it'd be a perfectly dick way to ruin a game
They could play normally, however, it's more of a game of how much risk is the ninja willing to take. A little risk could make the Ninja invincible with another pair of eyes. As for ruining the game. Here's my diagram+ Show Spoiler +NOTES: Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 19:19 youngminii wrote:On July 29 2010 13:12 flamewheel wrote:
Ninja (Ninja)
You will know how many other Ninjas reside within the town, but the town will not.
On August 06 2010 19:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Also, 9 people will lie. You forgot ninjas, youngminii. So we will get at least 9 liars to pick through, 3 of which will be ninjas we don't need to kill. Actually, we will have at least 10 liars because I already sent the following PM to BM: Uh oh, someone made a huge blunder. Pyrr is very likely a ninja. Assume that Pyrr is a Ninja, and there is only 3 in the town. Pyrr will be killed night one, so there will be only 2 Ninjas. With the ninja allying with town thing, basically, the medic would be trading their services for the ninja's services..but the ninja could just lie and get protection. So it's not in the interest of the medic to do that. The DT can't control the ninja... he has no power. He has no way of guaranteeing that he'll live to out the ninja. The ninja can hit him whenever he feels like it. The only way is to PM someone else, and even then, you're sacrificing a DT for a ninja? No. Best to leave the ninjas alone if you're a DT. Hmm. I guess it makes more sense with a mouth. You should have mentioned that before -_-. + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2010 23:39 KF91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:54 Jayme wrote:
I still hate voting for inactives on day one because it's so pointless.
and the random voting stage is already over after only a few hours...???? Oh incoming bandwagon I believe that this is one of the best ways to start off Day 1; mostly because like it was mentioned before, people do make mistakes and they shouldn't be lynched right away because of a single mistake they made on Day 1. Plus it promotes involvement, but I'm sure everyone's heard this countless times already. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 18:10 DarthThienAn wrote:
BM, you're basically introducing an incredibly scummy plan. If you really think mass roleclaim would be beneficial, then please explain why. And "It worked in other games" is not a reason, seeing as how every setup is different. How can you say everyone claiming would be beneficial if you don't even know how many blues we have? Until you elaborate, my vote is on you, even if I don't like the bandwagon on you.
"The mafia will be forced to lie, and if we coordinate early enough there is no way we can lose all of our good pieces."
Mafia can easily claim townie, or a random blue. We don't know how many of each role there is. So we wouldn't be able to call any of them out on their fake claims. So how would we catch a mafia lying, unless they claimed a role that requires results that we can see?
##vote Bill Murray From what I know of BM, this is classic BM to me (Although the last game I played with him was XXII, so things could have changed.). He promotes some weird plan and the town attacks him. He ends up being Godfather. But from what I can remember, he also pushes plans like these when he's a townie as well. From BM's point of view, this is just a trap for the mafia, because although it would be harder for the town to sift through all the liars in a mass-role claim, it would be harder for the mafia to organize who would claim as what. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote:I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz Um, hi? If you have time, feel free to type more, since an "activity-check" post won't save you from getting lynched forever. Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 22:52 rastaban wrote:
I just realized spoiler my plan made it less likely to be seen and critiqued which defeated its purpose so here it is again
Plan, Please Review
It involves 1 person role claiming TODAY. we then protect this person and use them as a confirmed townie. Now here is where the plan takes shape. Since mafia can stack our protection will fail and he will die, but wait we actually have something even better. a Bus Driver. The bus driver will now perpetually Bus our claimant.
Instead of the bus driver being an element of chaos he becomes the towns best medic. Regardless of if they Triple stack him he won't die. Even in the hands of a beginner this role would be now be powerful as they would be certain to using it for good. Another benefit is that it gives the blue roles the knowledge of if they hit the bus driver.
Say for a minute that we use the vigilante. Now we can be sure there is only one in this game since it is such a strong role. If a DT checks someone and he gets vigilante then he knows he hit the other end of the chain and will know to disregard that nights reading. We have just eliminated the early chaos that this role generates. The other thing is that the mafia now knows if they risk hitting vig there is a chance it will fire back on them.
Ok now I used vig in this example because he seems the best candidate but I could be wrong so town can advise. If we have the vig claim we know there will be only 1 (since otherwise town KP would be crazy) if we get 2 then we lynch both. This means we trade 1 vigilante for 1 Red with a 50% chance that the real vig stays alive.
There are a few outliers that could happen and I am considering them now but thought I would put this plan out as early as possible so in case we go with it all parties would have the most time to see what was going on possible. From what I see, bad plan. So much risk for the town while the mafia has to give a small effort to make sure that the town is screwed over. - If mafia roleclaims as a blue, this plan won't work period. - If a real blue does roleclaim, but the bus driver buses the wrong person, we could hit another blue (Perhaps one of out DTs or medics) - The mafia has power-roles that could turn this plan onto the town and the town could be lynching townies on Day 2/3 depending on if this plan is actually implemented. IMO, single roleclaims=bad at any point of the game. Or actually, any type of roleclaims; while it may prove useful to the town, it will always help mafia in killing blues. And from what I know about BM, he has the potential to play like an idiot both when he is mafia and townie. So I don’t judge based on playstyle, I judge based on what has happened in THIS game. And his plan is retarded, hence my voting for him. He still hasn’t offered any reasoning as to why this would ever be a good plan. And if it’s a trap, then it’s not a very good one, as no one is going to agree with it, and he’s not even trying to pretend like he agrees with it. Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:18 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
The only thing really sticking out to me is the strange and over-reacting response to BM's plan by DTA and Pyrr.
Bill Murray's roleclaim was horrible, since there are concealed counts. In fact, it is not only stupid but it is so entirely transparently stupid that I'm sure BM knew it was bad when he posted it. So why did he post it then?
Because mafia love to shoot down stupid townie plans, since it makes them appear pro-town. The difficulty is that good town players will also shoot down those same plans, since they want to win the game and all that.
Right now anyone voting for BM is either jumping the gun or behaving suspiciously. Lol, is it my fault that I don’t want the town to screw itself over? I have no guarantees about anyone’s intelligence here. Example: Bill Murray.
fuck you. I have a 135 IQ and got a 29 on my ACT.
Anyways, my plan is this: Have the tracker claim in the thread, to me, or to someone we as a collective agree upon. Have him call his shot. Afterwards, the watcher will watch the tracker and see who he visited. Bam. We have a confirmed slot.
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On August 07 2010 06:43 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 22:29 citi.zen wrote:On August 06 2010 22:14 zeks wrote:
As much as this game is about analyzing and question everything
Its also about trust - laying out possibilities and probabilities. Townies ain't going to be able to win without communication and teamwork. Not everyones going to be a DT and have rolechecks to 100% confirm someone - for those that aren't DT you have to draw the line on who's reliable and who's not. I think eventually everyone should be reaching out to someone during the duration of the game. Right. Not even "trust", it's "calculated risk". This is what everyone does in every single mafia game, Incognito included. In this case, your calculations were wrong, primarily based on the assumptions of what other people would/should do. Also, there are different degrees to calculated risk. Plans like the one you came up with are huge and can swing the game in either direction. When the range of results is that huge, there will be people who will oppose you.
All of this is applicable to what I'm trying to do here
Benefits of my plan:
a confirmed townie
Detriments of my plan:
having our tracker potentially killed, or us being confused if he is bus driven
Reasons the benefits outweigh the risks:
PMs
If we can organize a town circle through the tracker (we're going to need our blues to focus on him via medic protection and watching), we can win this game very easily as a town.
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How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments?
To clarify, we in the thread just decide for the watcher and tracker to visit ???. The watcher and Tracker DOES NOT CLAIM TO ANYONE. The watcher will then be like "hey, i saw you visited this guy." and pm him. Then we already have two blues in a town circle. Yay for townnnnnnnnnn
IS this a good idea? Oh my goodness I'm so excited.
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On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments?
To clarify, we in the thread just decide for the watcher and tracker to visit ???. The watcher and Tracker DOES NOT CLAIM TO ANYONE. The watcher will then be like "hey, i saw you visited this guy." and pm him. Then we already have two blues in a town circle. Yay for townnnnnnnnnn
IS this a good idea? Oh my goodness I'm so excited.
O CRAP I EDITED. What do I do? Am I banned. I meant to quote. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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BM:
"that's not what i was trying to do here, though, amber. i was trying to create confusion and get information out of the people who would be against roleclaiming (mafia and ninjas)."
You get no info out of that because no one should trust you. Townies should shoot this down because it is hella far from safe. Mafia should shoot this down if you aren't mafia. The only ones who should shoot this down are mafia members if you aren't mafia.
BM:
"Do you honestly believe I expected a single person to actually roleclaim to me?"
Yes, because you admit so in the next sentence and conclude this post asking for more roleclaims. Also, if you are red even one claim is helpful. If you are blue, then you would have had to get all of the claims, which it should be obvious beforehand you would never get.
BM:
" I did, but it was through a PM, not in the thread. Why would I ever do that in the thread?"
PM is even less safe if you are mafia because then only mafia gets the info. Plus, you conclude this post saying tracker can claim in thread.
BM:
"I'm willing to back off of this, because it was a ploy, and now i'm going to help the town in more traditional ways."
Yeah, except your new plan is almost as bad.
BM:
"Anyways, my plan is this: Have the tracker claim in the thread, to me, or to someone we as a collective agree upon. Have him call his shot. Afterwards, the watcher will watch the tracker and see who he visited. Bam. We have a confirmed slot."
We won't have confirmed shit. Assuming the claims are real (and we can't even be sure we have one of each of these roles) we will have a role blocked tracker and no progress. Maybe if it was claimed to someone trust worthy but I don't have any 100% trustworthy candidates yet. But they sure as hell can't claim in the thread. Also, it will be so easy for someone to fake claim watcher and just say yes he saw him, or no he didn't depending on what mafia want to do, because either one is plausible. And if we have multiple claims for tracker or watcher, how would we decide to go from there?
Also, if it is so smart for blues to claim in thread, and you are blue, why aren't you claiming? Maybe you could've started a bandwagon onto your plan if you showed your commitment to it. If you are blue, I hope you don't claim. But it's just another inconsistency in your logic.
Also, if we are comparing i-peens my IQ is 145 and ACT was 33. Yay autism.
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On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments?
Hmm it almost might would work...
What the watcher though doesn't know who is who... the mafia can send their roleblocker or framer that night and now they are listed as verified. at first I thought mafia could hit him but the watcher would get the name of one of the mafia so it wouldn't be beneficial.
Hmm I don't straight up disagree it might be an option but needs thought out a little more... Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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On August 07 2010 08:13 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments? Hmm it almost might would work... What the watcher though doesn't know who is who... the mafia can send their roleblocker or framer that night and now they are listed as verified. at first I thought mafia could hit him but the watcher would get the name of one of the mafia so it wouldn't be beneficial. Hmm I don't straight up disagree it might be an option but needs thought out a little more... Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Hmm.... good point. But then we could just keep on doing that again and agian. Therefore, we negate one of the mafia's powers. But is it too high a risk for town? Thanks for thinking on my plan btw.
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On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments?
To clarify, we in the thread just decide for the watcher and tracker to visit ???. The watcher and Tracker DOES NOT CLAIM TO ANYONE. The watcher will then be like "hey, i saw you visited this guy." and pm him. Then we already have two blues in a town circle. Yay for townnnnnnnnnn
IS this a good idea? Oh my goodness I'm so excited.
Hmm this might work.
Roleblocker: wouldn't know who to block, so a low chance to mess things up. Even if they block a watcher or tracker, we don't know who the watcher or trackers are so we won't get suspicious of them and mislynch them. Meanwhile, the mafia won't know 100% they blocked the right person because maaaaybe someone didn't follow the plan.
Framer: can't see a way they can help since they only work vs. DTs.
Godfather: could put neck out and false claim which is probably better for town than if he doesn't.
Mafia: They could possibly put a hit on the THIS GUY, leading to the person who sent in the hit PM showing up with the tracker(s). Prolly a good opportunity for town, here.
Sooo what happens if the blues follow this:
We get a framer who can claim the next day and give a list. This can be counter claimed but the real trackers can perhaps help sort things out. It could get kind of messy but a lot of mafia would have to stick out their necks to mess it up. I like it, let's do it.
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On August 07 2010 08:13 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments? Hmm it almost might would work... What the watcher though doesn't know who is who... the mafia can send their roleblocker or framer that night and now they are listed as verified. at first I thought mafia could hit him but the watcher would get the name of one of the mafia so it wouldn't be beneficial. Hmm I don't straight up disagree it might be an option but needs thought out a little more... Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Oh good point, they don't have to send a hit. But that just gives us a list of people confirmed to be red or blue which should still help, I think.
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On August 07 2010 08:23 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 08:13 rastaban wrote:On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote:
How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either.
OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good??????
I know, I'm scared too O.o
Comments? Hmm it almost might would work... What the watcher though doesn't know who is who... the mafia can send their roleblocker or framer that night and now they are listed as verified. at first I thought mafia could hit him but the watcher would get the name of one of the mafia so it wouldn't be beneficial. Hmm I don't straight up disagree it might be an option but needs thought out a little more... Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Oh good point, they don't have to send a hit. But that just gives us a list of people confirmed to be red or blue which should still help, I think.
Yeah I would say a tracker/watcher for a red is a good trade.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/laststandb/Ninja.gif)
