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Miscellaneous/Multi-Purpose Mafia I - Page 52

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Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
September 12 2013 03:26 GMT
#1021
Both approaches work so long as you use them to aim at the 'guide' question from a different angle. Full info is better for mafia, ignorant observer better for town. If you try to figure out mafia (i,e from a towns POV) with full info it's probably not going to be genuine. On the other hand, having full information is probably needed to look at mafia strategy, how they apply pressure, who is filling what roles in what ways, timing of their moves, etc. In the Sicilian analysis I couldn't do much of anything for analyzing mafia play; I could only have a vague idea of the mafia actions til at least day 3, and there was no guarantee I'd be right either.

I think it's okay if you miss things in your analysis (as an ignorant). I'm certain I missed tons in Sicilian. Mafia isn't about catching every single thing that makes somebody mafia or town; it's just about catching that one or few things that make it ironclad or very high %.

When I wrote the Mafia XXX analysis I first saw the game with no information when I was coaching a townie, looking mostly at potential mafia from townie POV and identifying potential blues. Then after it was over I reread with full information and tried to analyze the mafia's play. This is still not ideal, because I had spoiler knowledge of how the game ended up when analyzing mafia, but it at least covers both halves.

So perhaps ideally we could have 3+ hosts, one actual host who does the general host overview that Ace is really good at which looks more at mafia play, and an "observer" like I did in Sicilian who focuses on town.
Liquipedia
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
September 12 2013 04:39 GMT
#1022
Hey, by the way, if anyone wants to follow my posts in Golden Sun Mafia and offer me feedback after the game, I would greatly appreciate it.

Love you all.
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
September 12 2013 14:01 GMT
#1023
We need to bring back the boot camp games!
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
September 12 2013 19:50 GMT
#1024
On September 12 2013 23:01 kitaman27 wrote:
We need to bring back the boot camp games!


I love those! Foolishness helped me so much I will never forget!
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
September 12 2013 22:20 GMT
#1025
What are these boot camp games you speak of?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
September 12 2013 22:29 GMT
#1026
Salem Mafia
TL Mafia XXXVII
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
Papa_Smurf
Profile Joined September 2013
336 Posts
September 14 2013 03:59 GMT
#1027
Have we thought of having an analysis qt for a select group and working it that way possibly (if the big wigs don't have time and such).

Have it separate from obs qt and keep it analysis strictly. Then compile the thoughts postgame on each player
Papa_Smurf
Profile Joined September 2013
336 Posts
September 14 2013 04:02 GMT
#1028
On September 12 2013 13:39 Pandain wrote:
Hey, by the way, if anyone wants to follow my posts in Golden Sun Mafia and offer me feedback after the game, I would greatly appreciate it.

Love you all.


If someone would do an analysis of it overall, would be awesome.

there's quite a bit of activity now (i think everyone is posting to some degree). So, I'd say it'd be pretty good to do.

And I give free paintings courtesy of myself through MS paint as a form of payment :D
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
September 14 2013 05:13 GMT
#1029
How often do you change in between smurf accounts? Seems bothersome to me.
Papa_Smurf
Profile Joined September 2013
336 Posts
September 14 2013 17:39 GMT
#1030
On September 14 2013 14:13 Pandain wrote:
How often do you change in between smurf accounts? Seems bothersome to me.


I'm just keeping my smurf on so I don't have to keep switching when I post in game. It's a hassle
Papa_Smurf
Profile Joined September 2013
336 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-15 05:51:54
September 15 2013 05:51 GMT
#1031
Hey to those possbily starting up the analysis stuff.

Count me (debears) in. I don't really have the most time in the world starting around this week to actually play (lynch deadlines and shit), but I feel like following as an obs and just making analysis outside the game would be something doable timewise. Not to mention could help improvement (possibly towards the point where I don't have to be so active?) for me as well. Besides, I feel like alot of players need the help right now (not saying I will be the greatest at it, but a second perspective helps).

The hardest part I have of trying to reread through games that I've played is that I keep saying to myself (oh well I saw that or my bias at that point in the game making me say I wouldn't have seen that). Maybe that might be what's hurting alot of other players right now (ego and such)
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
September 16 2013 03:34 GMT
#1032
The Banlist was talking about it, so here is my typical night action resolution chart taken from parallel worlds mafia

Night Action resolution

Night actions will typically resolve in the following manner.

1. Anything with “ First Priority” specifiers
2. Roleblocks (2 roleblockers actioning on each other will both be roleblocked and notified)
3. Any Redirection abilities
4. Everything else
5. Anything with "Last Priority" specifiers
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
September 16 2013 03:43 GMT
#1033
but the contention was abilities that are the same priority as each other happening, like i would count mind control and busdriver both as redirection abilities.

also what if the mind controller mind controls a roleblocker who would otherwise have roleblocked soem third party
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
September 16 2013 04:29 GMT
#1034
If i have a mind controller in my games, he would most likely have first priority above redirection, as his ability kind of functions as a supreme roleblock. Not to mention I never allow busdrivers to bus themselves.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
gonzaw
Profile Joined December 2011
Uruguay4911 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 05:38:58
September 16 2013 05:38 GMT
#1035
On September 16 2013 12:34 GreYMisT wrote:
The Banlist was talking about it, so here is my typical night action resolution chart taken from parallel worlds mafia

Night Action resolution

Night actions will typically resolve in the following manner.

1. Anything with “ First Priority” specifiers
2. Roleblocks (2 roleblockers actioning on each other will both be roleblocked and notified)
3. Any Redirection abilities
4. Everything else
5. Anything with "Last Priority" specifiers


It's not so easy. Some redirection actions affect other redirection actions, which in turn affect other stuff, etc.

I think the best way to envision it would be creating a "graph" of dependent actions. I.e every night action is a node in the graph. If that action modifies another action in any way, you link that action to the other one.
So if (1)="Player A RBs Player B" and (2)="Player B Checks Player A", then the dependency graph would be (1)->(2).
This means you first execute (1), and THEN execute (2). Basically you follow the graph.

But shit like bus drivers and redirection make this shit hard, because it changes the graph as you execute it.
For instance, if (1)="Player A busses Player B and Player C", and (2)="Player D RBs Player B" and (3)="Player C Checks Player A", then at first, you construct the graph like this:
(1)->(2) ; (3) (3 is independent)
So you execute (1), but oh! It turns out that now B and C are bussed, so D actually RBs C. This means the graph changes to (2)->(3), since Player D is RBing Player C.
This means C never gets his check. However if you had followed the initial graph C would have gotten his check.

You can say "But by making all RBs happen first, this doesn't happen!". Well I think this shouldn't be the case. Why? Because the above case is legit. If I buss 2 players and a 3rd player RBs one of them, he should instead RB the one that was bussed. This is the core of redirection, and it shouldn't apply to every other action, yet stop with roleblocks just because.

One way to mitigate this is to "simulate" graph executions. You first take all dependencies, then "simulate" executing the 1st one in the chain (if the chain is (1)->(2), you simulate (1) first). After this, you see if any dependencies changed. With lots of actions with lots of dependencies which change lots of stuff this may pose a problem.
There's also the problem that the chains must be acyclic. So if you encounter a cycle (for instance 2 players RBing each other) you do have to break the cycle.
However it goes beyond that. You can have ANY cycle. What if Player A RBs Player B, Player B RBs Player C, and Player C RBs Player A? This is different than the "2 RBs RB each other" case, yet it is another cyclic problem.
You can say "Just RB all 3", but there can be other cycles that not only have to do with RBers. For instance bus drivers bussing each other, and of course other "insane" mechanics with mind controllers and stuff.

But again just making one role have priority over "everything else in the universe" defeats the purpose of some of these roles, and makes certain scenarios (which would have been possible and valid previously) invalid (like the bus->RB one I mentioned first).


Meh. Surely we could convince some mathematician and/or computer scientist to give us a nice perfect computing model for this shit.
gonzaw
Profile Joined December 2011
Uruguay4911 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 05:48:09
September 16 2013 05:45 GMT
#1036
On September 11 2013 05:55 Coagulation wrote:
I dont think anyone from omgus would have the desire to wade asshole deep in pretentious douche anyway.


But the "absolute top player" Kira is playing representing OMGUS!

EDIT: Anyways, I would have played. At least to lynch Foo on D1.

I always wanted to lynch scum Foolishness on D1 as town. But alas, when I'm town he's town, and when he's scum I'm scum.
Damn you fate.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
September 16 2013 05:48 GMT
#1037
It would make more sense imo to resolve night actions in alphabetical order
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
ObviousOne
Profile Joined April 2012
United States3704 Posts
September 16 2013 05:50 GMT
#1038
It's more fun to just do the actions in the order they are received and let chaos reign!! If your game has that many fucked up roles that you need a mathematician to sort it out maybe you want to dial down the redirects. I don't want to play a game with 2 bus drivers and 4 roleblockers anyway so my opinion may not matter to theme/crazy rules enthusiasts.

But simple rules I can think of are:
They are done in the order they are received
They are done in a predefined order every night (bus driver always happens first, for example)
They are done categorically as seems to be discussed above

Can do the third option followed by the first as a tie breaker, perhaps?
Fear is the only darkness. ~Destiny Fan Club operator~
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
September 16 2013 06:33 GMT
#1039
On September 16 2013 14:38 gonzaw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 12:34 GreYMisT wrote:
The Banlist was talking about it, so here is my typical night action resolution chart taken from parallel worlds mafia

Night Action resolution

Night actions will typically resolve in the following manner.

1. Anything with “ First Priority” specifiers
2. Roleblocks (2 roleblockers actioning on each other will both be roleblocked and notified)
3. Any Redirection abilities
4. Everything else
5. Anything with "Last Priority" specifiers


It's not so easy. Some redirection actions affect other redirection actions, which in turn affect other stuff, etc.

I think the best way to envision it would be creating a "graph" of dependent actions. I.e every night action is a node in the graph. If that action modifies another action in any way, you link that action to the other one.
So if (1)="Player A RBs Player B" and (2)="Player B Checks Player A", then the dependency graph would be (1)->(2).
This means you first execute (1), and THEN execute (2). Basically you follow the graph.

But shit like bus drivers and redirection make this shit hard, because it changes the graph as you execute it.
For instance, if (1)="Player A busses Player B and Player C", and (2)="Player D RBs Player B" and (3)="Player C Checks Player A", then at first, you construct the graph like this:
(1)->(2) ; (3) (3 is independent)
So you execute (1), but oh! It turns out that now B and C are bussed, so D actually RBs C. This means the graph changes to (2)->(3), since Player D is RBing Player C.
This means C never gets his check. However if you had followed the initial graph C would have gotten his check.

You can say "But by making all RBs happen first, this doesn't happen!". Well I think this shouldn't be the case. Why? Because the above case is legit. If I buss 2 players and a 3rd player RBs one of them, he should instead RB the one that was bussed. This is the core of redirection, and it shouldn't apply to every other action, yet stop with roleblocks just because.

One way to mitigate this is to "simulate" graph executions. You first take all dependencies, then "simulate" executing the 1st one in the chain (if the chain is (1)->(2), you simulate (1) first). After this, you see if any dependencies changed. With lots of actions with lots of dependencies which change lots of stuff this may pose a problem.
There's also the problem that the chains must be acyclic. So if you encounter a cycle (for instance 2 players RBing each other) you do have to break the cycle.
However it goes beyond that. You can have ANY cycle. What if Player A RBs Player B, Player B RBs Player C, and Player C RBs Player A? This is different than the "2 RBs RB each other" case, yet it is another cyclic problem.
You can say "Just RB all 3", but there can be other cycles that not only have to do with RBers. For instance bus drivers bussing each other, and of course other "insane" mechanics with mind controllers and stuff.

But again just making one role have priority over "everything else in the universe" defeats the purpose of some of these roles, and makes certain scenarios (which would have been possible and valid previously) invalid (like the bus->RB one I mentioned first).


Meh. Surely we could convince some mathematician and/or computer scientist to give us a nice perfect computing model for this shit.



Trust me, I have experience with resolving consistantly busdrivers affecting busdrivers who also affect 2 people listswaping other people in a parallel universe.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
September 16 2013 09:49 GMT
#1040
On September 16 2013 14:38 gonzaw wrote:
Meh. Surely we could convince some mathematician and/or computer scientist to give us a nice perfect computing model for this shit.


Votecount bot first. Priorities.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
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