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On July 24 2010 14:02 youngminii wrote:
I do disagree with the mass blue roleclaim, there's always the possibility of citi.zen faking it. However, I don't see what the problem is if someone that's representing the DT PM's citi.zen.
Ok take it this way.
Your the representative of DT X (usually means he's checked you) you message citizen. He turns out to be faking it. Based on who you are, he can guess potentially who a) checked you b) talk to you enough to garner trust or manipulate other people in your circle (potentially the dt) feed you crock information on who's confirmed to bring back etc...
Your opening yourself up to getting potentially raped by trusting someone with entrance to what should be a completely secure circle. This is just a quick problem with it, I am sure if someone sat down and looked at it longer, a number of more issues would appear.
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On July 24 2010 14:11 youngminii wrote:
Let's say I am representing DT X and I message citi.zen. I would obviously be wary of a fake claim and not give him too much information. I would also ask him to tell me who the DT is, which is kind of obvious isn't it? If I'm claiming and citi.zen doesn't receive a second claim, then obviously the trust groups that I'm in and citi.zen are in are both confirmed. Then he should be able to trust my group and give us his DT.
It's not very hard.
You are assuming he is representing a real dt however, and doesnt give you the name of a GF (who has appeared as a dt), or forces you to waste a check on someone else, etc...
The potential for two circles too work better is higher as the less people with a huge knowledge base means less chance for major fuckups (one circle is infilitrated you say lose 1 dt) one giant circle and its infiltrated you lose both dts, and potentially more.
What he is proposing is something we should be picking apart before we are sure of it rather than blindly going "hey I agree, great stuff, you a champ"
Remember, we just spent pages discussing me/tricode, and in the last page since his claim there has been one person aside from myself to really speak up.
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On July 24 2010 14:13 youngminii wrote:
What's suspicious is that you're trying to block this from happening. Not pointing fingers but it's quite obvious that this is a pretty solid plan with minimal chances of being infiltrated by scum, even then it will be obvious as the game progresses if he's lying or not.
From blocking it? I actually contest many claims in many games that are completely out of left field. No one agreed to claiming to someone who thought d3 was almost fully legit, yet your agreeing to claim to someone who has appeared out as the last KP role? as well as saying "sup im the medic spokesmen, got myself a circle already" etc...
Its too good to be true this early.
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On July 24 2010 14:25 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 14:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 14:13 youngminii wrote:
What's suspicious is that you're trying to block this from happening. Not pointing fingers but it's quite obvious that this is a pretty solid plan with minimal chances of being infiltrated by scum, even then it will be obvious as the game progresses if he's lying or not. From blocking it? I actually contest many claims in many games that are completely out of left field. No one agreed to claiming to someone who thought d3 was almost fully legit, yet your agreeing to claim to someone who has appeared out as the last KP role? as well as saying "sup im the medic spokesmen, got myself a circle already" etc... Its too good to be true this early. But surely if he's coming out as the last kp role it would have to be contested if he's lying? Though I could think of some reasons why the remaining kp person might not want to counter claim him it seems like it would be worth it to bust a fake circle of trust
Say for instance He is lying.
It means two dts (if not in contact with eachother) pm him themselves, or through a mouth, those mouths are then talking to him. He can put them in contact with eachother, they see it as semi legit, then a period goes by they all mass claim him (as he asked for blue roles) he then proceeds to blue snipe, where it costs the rest only one red, to off 2+ blues.
WE also don't know if the last KP role is a hatter or a vig. If its a vig, he counterclaims and then it comes down to a war of which of them gets lynched. People fearing that he is in fact a hatter, off the vig see his flip and go oh shit. Conversely the mafia could send someone up and do the same thing.
I believe the proper amendmant to citi.zens plan is if HE is not the center of said circle. Or be lynched to prove the legitmacy of his claim. He can put the other checked person his dt has checked with the the other dt's liason and by dying confirms his claim DT's can then claim straight through the liasons, and one of those liasons can take part of town leadership and pass roles to dts. There would be two people to counterclaim if someone tried to jump up and take info, and would be alot more reliable than trusting one persons word.
The only issue with that plan is if he is infact hatter then the town would have lost its last kp role and hope that his current bomb placement takes reds out.
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Citizen, you know im criticizing you because what you proposed isn’t a solid plan.
You offered a plan that your “confirmation” was no counter claim. A dt has to prove he’s a DT after day 2 by handing over a red typically. A vig has to have wasted a shot and been willing to die (see tricode), a hatter would have to offer to sacrifice their-self. Instead you offered a plan that relies on everyone to implicitly trust your word. You are aware of what a hatters job would be, just as much as you know trust in a mafia game isn’t freely given like your asking. Ontop of that your asking for all the blues to claim to you? You have offered nothing but a plan with holes ones you knew were open. Also, if you were really the hatter, you would most likely have a bomb on me already, so are you willing to lay your life on the line Godfather? If your legit you would be able to put the dt the other person your dt confirmed in contact with the other dt liason and would let claiming possible to them. Shall we do this rationally then?
Once the two DTs are connected, you are no longer needed. So you should be willing to do your job.
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On July 24 2010 15:16 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 15:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Citizen, you know im criticizing you because what you proposed isn’t a solid plan.
You offered a plan that your “confirmation” was no counter claim. A dt has to prove he’s a DT after day 2 by handing over a red typically. A vig has to have wasted a shot and been willing to die (see tricode), a hatter would have to offer to sacrifice their-self. Instead you offered a plan that relies on everyone to implicitly trust your word. You are aware of what a hatters job would be, just as much as you know trust in a mafia game isn’t freely given like your asking. Ontop of that your asking for all the blues to claim to you? You have offered nothing but a plan with holes ones you knew were open. Also, if you were really the hatter, you would most likely have a bomb on me already, so are you willing to lay your life on the line Godfather? If your legit you would be able to put the dt the other person your dt confirmed in contact with the other dt liason and would let claiming possible to them. Shall we do this rationally then?
Once the two DTs are connected, you are no longer needed. So you should be willing to do your job.
I'm so confused T_T. As long as the other vigi/mad hatter counter claims we know Cit.zen is mafia. If no one counter claims, then he is NOT mafia. Therefore he's confirmed. So why NOT pm him? BloodyC0bbler, maybe you're just confuzzled or maybe I am but can you please explain to me how the above logic does not make sense.
We actually don't know that actually. Anyone could counterclaim (bored townie, a real hatter, red) and you would never know who was the legit one without lynching someone. Citizen proposed a plan that requires some form of proof, and he is in a position to do that. No one has any real proof of citizens role until he actually fulfills its condition.
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On July 24 2010 15:28 youngminii wrote:
Now who's the one causing spam/clutter. It's a solid plan. If he's scum it doesn't matter, he's not going to learn the identities of any blues/DTs. Also, it'll become inherently obvious that he's scum (alongside with his 'DT') by the way the game turns out. Stop arguing a lost cause, it's a good plan apart from the blue mass claim.
Do you not realize how pm circles work? He is the direct contact of a "dt" who would be working with the contact of another dt, etc..
If hes red, two people pm him seperately with contacts, he can get info quite easily once you know who someone is. Offs them. If red, his DT is actually non existant.
He could be GF who got checked dt went "hurr most likely legit what gf would choose hatter" and gave info, and then ends up getting filtered (as he's still the voice of his dt) so he still gets fed info from the other dt via a chain.
HE still ends up in a better position. You would get tops of one red, for however many confirmed blues/greens you give him + names of circles to snipe. It bewilders me that this is lost on you when he can easily prove his case while maintaining the circle he wants to create.
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On July 24 2010 15:35 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 15:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 15:28 youngminii wrote:
Now who's the one causing spam/clutter. It's a solid plan. If he's scum it doesn't matter, he's not going to learn the identities of any blues/DTs. Also, it'll become inherently obvious that he's scum (alongside with his 'DT') by the way the game turns out. Stop arguing a lost cause, it's a good plan apart from the blue mass claim. He could be GF who got checked dt went "hurr most likely legit what gf would choose hatter" and gave info, and then ends up getting filtered (as he's still the voice of his dt) so he still gets fed info from the other dt via a chain. . If he's GF, that would require some DEEP DEEP thinking. I mean, he'd have to be Funkmaster Jesus in order to know that. Look at it: 1)He'd have to know vigi would shoot, therefore being hatter could help. 2.)If he's not hatter, the real hatter will say so, therefore causing us to know one of them is scum. 3)Wouldn't that DT already be dead? why would they let a DT live.
To find the other DT? Why would a DT claim to someone who could be the GF. He doesn't need a vig to shoot, the vig could die, he could claim he was a vig after, hold kp and claim his hit was blocked + other red claims he took a hit, etc...
Keeping a DT alive in a setup like this can actually help you nap the other dt, or a mess of blues, etc...
You mention deep deep thinking, and people do think like this in mafia. Most plans of these types require confirming yourself. As i said before dt hands off a red, if the accused flips town, you nailed a red. etc...
You also assume the real hatter would claim right away. SEEing someone fake claim means if he claims now he potentially gets voted and dies while his bombs aren't placed appropriately and would die to nap one red, when his job is to nap two. A legit hatter in this plan would have an idea of where to have at least one of his bombs, but more importantly knows his life would have his bombs go off, as well as giving the town a circle he wants.
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On July 24 2010 15:46 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 15:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 15:28 youngminii wrote:
Now who's the one causing spam/clutter. It's a solid plan. If he's scum it doesn't matter, he's not going to learn the identities of any blues/DTs. Also, it'll become inherently obvious that he's scum (alongside with his 'DT') by the way the game turns out. Stop arguing a lost cause, it's a good plan apart from the blue mass claim. Do you not realize how pm circles work? He is the direct contact of a "dt" who would be working with the contact of another dt, etc.. If hes red, two people pm him seperately with contacts, he can get info quite easily once you know who someone is. Offs them. If red, his DT is actually non existant. He could be GF who got checked dt went "hurr most likely legit what gf would choose hatter" and gave info, and then ends up getting filtered (as he's still the voice of his dt) so he still gets fed info from the other dt via a chain. HE still ends up in a better position. You would get tops of one red, for however many confirmed blues/greens you give him + names of circles to snipe. It bewilders me that this is lost on you when he can easily prove his case while maintaining the circle he wants to create. Can you pay attention for a minute? I'm saying that he gives the second DT group the name of the original DT. The second DT group can confirm with the DT that citi.zen claims is DT. If he does claim, then it's guaranteed that either citi.zen + DT are both scum or citi.zen + DT are both town. Information such as 'this guy is blue' won't be given out (until maybe later in the game where it's pretty much confirmed that the groups are real), only 'this guy is not red' would be passed around. We would get tops of TWO reds and he doesn't get any blue information until later. I can't believe you don't see this, it's blatantly obvious.
Your also assuming that his DT is fine with his name being passed along to until they can confirm eachother an unconfirmed "dt" which leads into possible mafia faking dt to get his info. So instead of bagging two red, a dt can still die. Your idea also has its problems.
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Your also assuming both DT's have a trust circle. DT's could very easily not trust who they have checked based on actions within a thread, and so haven't talked to them. So one singular circle talking could be a mafia one. The reds could still offer up one of their own in the attempts to delay a townie circle from forming long enough to potentially kill the key members of it. I don't get what is the issue here.
I proposed a sure fire way to A) confirm hes legit + he uses his ability
b) his DT is automatically confirmed by proxy, as would be whoever he checks, then its just a matter of the second dt pming the second confirmed person to citizens dt and voila, you have a circle made that is confirmed via 1 death, as opposed to blind trust.
C) its alot harder for mafia to fake as they can't fake hatters powers when they die.
I'm not exactly sure why you want citizen to be in charge of said circle, when it can be better confirmed legit with his death.
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On July 24 2010 16:02 youngminii wrote:
Just pointing out that point C) is moot 'cause when you flip, you flip your role. And yes, I am assuming both DTs have a trust circle. It would be pretty funny if the DTs weren't making trust circles, wouldn't it? The confirmation process you're describing seems like an unnecessary town (mad hatter) lynch to me. Also, what about the bombs he's placed? Seems to me that you could be scum and by offing citi.zen you're potentially getting 3 kills in one go. It seems more beneficial if town just believes in the plan without all the tiny points that you're bringing up at the last minute.
Because I am 100% certainbased on how hes been playing that if he is legit there is a bomb on me. He has posted more than once that he has suspicions on me, so regardless, I'd die. So if i was scum, no it wouldn't be 3 free kills. You are taking huge leaps of faith whereas you shouldn't be in a position where if hes mafia, town loses. The tiny holes you are describing are actually quite large and I gave a plan to fix said hole, and instead people are wanting to take everything in faith, very scary concept in mafia. IF a DT claimed he would have to offer a red, a vig would have to claim his shot and be willing to die to prove it/be checked, etc... The fact your expectations of a hatter in a much more sensitive spot doesn't meet the same standard is just odd.
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On July 24 2010 16:25 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 16:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 16:02 youngminii wrote:
Just pointing out that point C) is moot 'cause when you flip, you flip your role. And yes, I am assuming both DTs have a trust circle. It would be pretty funny if the DTs weren't making trust circles, wouldn't it? The confirmation process you're describing seems like an unnecessary town (mad hatter) lynch to me. Also, what about the bombs he's placed? Seems to me that you could be scum and by offing citi.zen you're potentially getting 3 kills in one go. It seems more beneficial if town just believes in the plan without all the tiny points that you're bringing up at the last minute. Because I am 100% certainbased on how hes been playing that if he is legit there is a bomb on me. He has posted more than once that he has suspicions on me, so regardless, I'd die. So if i was scum, no it wouldn't be 3 free kills. You are taking huge leaps of faith whereas you shouldn't be in a position where if hes mafia, town loses. The tiny holes you are describing are actually quite large and I gave a plan to fix said hole, and instead people are wanting to take everything in faith, very scary concept in mafia. IF a DT claimed he would have to offer a red, a vig would have to claim his shot and be willing to die to prove it/be checked, etc... The fact your expectations of a hatter in a much more sensitive spot doesn't meet the same standard is just odd. Now that I think about it... lynching him, wouldn't that be bad? I mean he has TWO bombs, therefore his bombs could be going off on innocent civilians!
It is possible yes, but in the same regard, you get a 100% confirmed dt, who will check another dt and confirm him, then you have a fairly large circle, a group of dead players to mark off a player list, and the dts have a much smaller list to check off of and can be safe having very little doubt of infiltration.
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On July 24 2010 16:36 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 16:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 16:02 youngminii wrote:
Just pointing out that point C) is moot 'cause when you flip, you flip your role. And yes, I am assuming both DTs have a trust circle. It would be pretty funny if the DTs weren't making trust circles, wouldn't it? The confirmation process you're describing seems like an unnecessary town (mad hatter) lynch to me. Also, what about the bombs he's placed? Seems to me that you could be scum and by offing citi.zen you're potentially getting 3 kills in one go. It seems more beneficial if town just believes in the plan without all the tiny points that you're bringing up at the last minute. Because I am 100% certainbased on how hes been playing that if he is legit there is a bomb on me. He has posted more than once that he has suspicions on me, so regardless, I'd die. So if i was scum, no it wouldn't be 3 free kills. You are taking huge leaps of faith whereas you shouldn't be in a position where if hes mafia, town loses. The tiny holes you are describing are actually quite large and I gave a plan to fix said hole, and instead people are wanting to take everything in faith, very scary concept in mafia. IF a DT claimed he would have to offer a red, a vig would have to claim his shot and be willing to die to prove it/be checked, etc... The fact your expectations of a hatter in a much more sensitive spot doesn't meet the same standard is just odd. My leaps of faith do not put us in a situation where if he's mafia town loses. I told you time and time again there's no loss for town if citi.zen is scum. You are the one taking leaps of faith saying "100% certain there's a bomb on me" and you seem to believe in all these little holes. They're not large, it's not town loss if citi.zen is scum and why would you want to off yourself (if you're so sure citi.zen has a bomb)? 3 lives is a huge price to pay just to check citi.zen. This is quite suspicious.
I am not sure you really get the idea. There is a loss for town just by talking to citizen in the first place if hes scum. He would still represent a large piece of a circle for being unconfirmed. Also, 3 lives (it would suck completely if his bombs were both on town) However, it makes the dt's jobs easier to check. It gives a 100% confirmed alliance, lets them share notes on who checked who, when, gives them the ability to systematically find people and root them out. Someone flips red, kill them someone flips green they go on a list, flips blue go on a list. once you've offed all reds, move on to analyzing peoples posts for the most likely to be gf if hes not dead already. The cost is no worse than if he died at night and had his bombs on two townies, as this way his death actually gives information in the form of a confirmed circle. His play is game breaking for whatever side he is on, so what your calling tiny holes as i have said are actually very large.
Just go back and do me a favour and see how hatters have been played previously, they have been used multiple times for information/double lynching, its not a strange concept for me to expect a similar play.
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On July 24 2010 17:02 youngminii wrote:
I don't mind if hatters are used for double lynching. The 'information' part doesn't apply because it's an open death setup. 3 lives is a huge amount and as I said, it doesn't break the game if he is scum. It will become overtly obvious if he is and two scum will be ours for the taking.
I have an even better plan than your 'kill 3 people to confirm 1 DT'. Why can't we get the second DT to just check the proposed DT and citi.zen? Your logic seems like that of one who's grasping at straws. There's absolutely no downside to the plan if citi.zen is scum. We don't need a huge trust circle that is passing on every single bit of information with each other, which wouldn't be optimal even if the DTs were confirmed because of possible GF in the group. We just need a huge trust circle that is passing on the relevant information.
Actually, your wrong. IT takes two nights for a dt to clear a dt and a hatter, that means 4 night kills for mafia, which is > than the 3 if the hatter dies.
I don't get you, you seem far to willing to trust a play that is game breaking without realizing its consequences. You don't get two mafia if hes fake claiming You get him. As if he is a red claiming, two dts are sending him information via their curriors unless they were stupid and roleclaimed him themself. This gives him an in to both dts. If someone so much as slips up in pms once, info is given, a dt is dead. Hell just knowing who is in a circle can help you figure out who else is in that same circle. I do get where you are coming from but you honestly don't see the bigger picture.
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On July 24 2010 17:13 youngminii wrote:
The bigger picture:
He gives the DT's name to the groups hence there are 2 scum on the line.
What are scum gonna do knowing that this guy is green and that guy is green?
It will become extremely obvious later in the game if they are lying, an easy out.
DT checking them is always a viable option.
4 night kills for mafia in two nights.
2 hatter kills + hatter death + 2 night kills for mafia in one night.
No.
Add in the additional potential for town lynches thats potentially 6 kills in two days? again, more deaths.
also something becoming obvious late game isnt useful if they have information garnered early game. If the gf slides into the mix its done. So you may get one, but not before they do nasty things.
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On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found.
dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up.
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On July 24 2010 20:19 lakrismamma wrote:
I love mafia! You wake up in the morning and so much has changed.
Did you read my post about claiming citi =)
I think that if no one claims mad hatter or vigi then tricode and citi.zen are pretty much in the clear.
I dont think you should blueclaim to him but he will act as a link between the two detectives. If it is as he say and he has a circle with one of the detectives then the other will have one of his checked ones PM citi.
Then citi will provide the name of the DT he is contact for. The DT gets checked during the night and then we have a big towncircle with a spokesman.
If 2 people claims to be contacts for the DT then its more complicated but then I guess citi.zens DT have to weed out the claims.
I think BC is being very suspicious in not not coming with any ideas except delaying the claims. I find it weird as well that he dident include Misder in his little investigation. Misder is one of the scummyest people in the game I think. For now though since we could not abstain too much according to BM.
##vote doublelynch
## vote abstain
Thanks for appearing after I went to sleep, its nice to know I get to wake up to stuff like this.
Now, if you read the bolded text you can easily see a mistake in your reasoning. In the case of multiple DT mouths talking to citizen, rather than him clear his legimacy, your having him instant 100% cleared and his dt clears the others....If he is red, you just handed him the entire dt list, good job. Best plan so far. IF he is legit, we have no way of proving this. Regardless, your plan requires 100% trust pretty well in him.
As for why I haven't analyzed misder? So what? I opted to snag people I saw obviously coasting/acting scummy. You know, rather than fingering me for who I didn't analyze, maybe you should spend time analyzing said person. Hell if you think you believe they are scum, maybe you should give a reason why other than "I think"
Trying to put suspicion on me for who I didn't analyze is like saying "You contributed, but because your scum list and mine don't overlap 100% you must be red" instead of contributing yourself.
On July 24 2010 20:51 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 15:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Citizen, you know im criticizing you because what you proposed isn’t a solid plan.
You offered a plan that your “confirmation” was no counter claim. A dt has to prove he’s a DT after day 2 by handing over a red typically. A vig has to have wasted a shot and been willing to die (see tricode), a hatter would have to offer to sacrifice their-self. Instead you offered a plan that relies on everyone to implicitly trust your word. You are aware of what a hatters job would be, just as much as you know trust in a mafia game isn’t freely given like your asking. Ontop of that your asking for all the blues to claim to you? You have offered nothing but a plan with holes ones you knew were open. Also, if you were really the hatter, you would most likely have a bomb on me already, so are you willing to lay your life on the line Godfather? If your legit you would be able to put the dt the other person your dt confirmed in contact with the other dt liason and would let claiming possible to them. Shall we do this rationally then?
Once the two DTs are connected, you are no longer needed. So you should be willing to do your job.
First off, I am not asking anyone to take my word. I explained this already: I am putting myself out there with this claim. If I am red there is another town kp role who can point me out. As I said, you need to sacrifice a red to at least create some confusion. Are you willing to? Second, I have no problem dying to prove my innocence. It's an odd plan though, since if I am red the damage is already done after I have the dt names: the rest of the mafia team know them. So your "plan" does nothing in fact, even if I am red. So you're wrong on both counts. At this point I don't get why people can't see how obviously red you are. I say we lynch BloodyC0bbler for confirmation. If the other dt wants they can wait until your flip to talk to me. That is how sure I am you are red.
Again your wrong. All you would be doing is handing the other checked person off down to the voice who contacts you. ALL you have at this point is a thread to the dts. IF you flip town, the job can still be carried out, if you flip red, a red just got bagged. There would be 0 roleclaiming or anything until you flipped. So no, stop trying to alter my wording to your advantage, you know just as well as I do that what you just said is complete bull. Hell you have also said elsewhere that you specifically said
On July 25 2010 01:41 citi.zen wrote:
Two things: if you trust me, you trust me DT. I got checked night 1 and personally chose night 2's check target. No way for the two of them to "play me". Second, multiple claims are fine. The mafia will give up 2 people. At night we investigate one of the competing groups. We get two reds either way.
Clear?
IE the second cleared person should be fully trusted by you and could easily handle the job in your place. No, instead you have pushed a plan that had holes, and rather than trying to fix them you opted to lynch the first person to openly disagree with you.
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On July 25 2010 04:27 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 04:18 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Well the excrement has hit the air conditioning.
I need to think about this.
I'm actually not sure if the correct play is to lynch South here.
If he IS bomber like he says he is, it'll just be me and him dying. That gives a lot of information against me/him such as those who where making a strong case against me/people who ADMITTEDLY jumped on him. If he's mafia, we just killed a mafia, good job, we still can't 100% trust citi.zen since it could be a ploy to sac one mafia to make the other one more trusted. Not saying that I don't trust you citi.zen, I'm just saying that's a possibility.
It does give information, but depending on who citizens bombs are on could give more information. Although the less amount of people dying is advantageous.
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Ok in the last hour, we have people still criticizing citizens idea, a counterclaim, and hes no where to be found?. The guy was here when the counterclaim first started but has vanished since. I would actually like to hear from citizen on whats going on rather than him hiding at this point.
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Ok, so its been close to two hours since citizens last post. Its nearing (if i've counted properly) 3 hours till end of day and the guy has literally vanished. He has ignored relevant posts by mulitple players that demand his attention.
He has pushed that people vote then vanished off the face of the earth.
In the face of what he has proposed, why would he be inactive? He has to prove his plan is completely sound here, and what do I see, an inactive person trying to slide under the radar and stay "trusted" to garnish DT information be it their roles, or just who they have confirmed.
He also has people who have been mostly inactive the majority of the game coming forth to defend him, where were they? they are all players who have played in multiple games and should see the same issues with his plan that Myself and others have. Instead they are blind trusting? That isn't something someone with experience would just do this early in the game.
Until he really comes out to defend himself (not pointing fingers at others) but seriously address' the issues so far posted the last few pages, he is looking very scum
## vote citizen
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EPT
