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Elemenope
Burkina Faso1704 Posts
On April 09 2010 08:26 ~OpZ~ wrote: Personally, I'm wondering where the fuck LMNOP disappeared to...discussing it with his mafia brothers? Because this is supposed to be my sole attention and it's not as if I play HoN or take breaks in typing or any of the sort. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote: With ~OpZ~ and Abenson changing his opinion, JeeJee seems to be most detailed post arguing for citizen lynch. Let me rip his arguments to shreds. Ok On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote: Argument about vote counts This argument also assumes that entire Mafia players chose to vote for one person three consecutive days. Seriously? I thought the most basic assumption about Mafia voting pattern was that they would try to avoid suspicion by spreading their votes as much as possible. Yes, they were all bandwagon votes, but RoL and Xelin bandwagon had so much steam going into it there was little reason for Mafia to all-in every time. Overall his repeated statement that four of us voted for same person over and over again is WIFOM. If you're going to throw MS terms around, at least educate yourself in what they mean. Your paragraph just states "they voted together but the first and second rule of mafia is mafia don't vote together, hence this is wrong!" Newsflash: this is WIFOM. To clarify, for those that are not as familiar In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments. I'm stating facts. You're saying "mafia wouldn't do that lol this can't be right". Welcome to WIFOM-town. On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote: Another specific flaw I found; JeeJee states that four of us created wagon against Nikon when only alternative lynch target was Caller- only for citizen and me to start Caller bandwagon very next day. What? If Caller also is Townie, why wouldn't we have followed the bandwagon suggested by confirmed Townie? Remember you said we are not following the bandwagon that has already formed, but started it. There must be motive for Mafia to start the bandwagon that goes against the argument of confirmed Townie, and therefore draw suspicion later on. If both Nikon and Caller is Townie, it is absolutely illogical for Mafia to continue their bandwagon against Nikon and Caller even when confirmed Townie is strongly arguing for alternative lynch target. A simple cursory look over the history will reveal something obvious about day 3 votes that you bring up 1) there were 4 votes on caller 2) EVERY SINGLE VOTER ABSTAINED, there are now 0 votes on caller. 3) large time extension via nukes 4) misc votes (few on caller again, few on nemy) 5) nuke reflection 6) enter your wagon Let's see, who to wagon on... Caller, for whom the voters weren't committed enough to stay on, nemy who had a few random votes or a lying claimer staring you in the face, asking to get called out on it (much like our dear citi.zen may i add). On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote: Argument against abilities If Mafia - Caller in this case because he is certainly Mafia if citizen is innocent - intended to start bandwagon against citizen, they might easily could have chosen to keep their nuke-stealer in check to further incriminate him. Absense of nuke steal proves nothing. I cannot even understand what you are arguing here. Citizen had his nuke stolen (because immobile three nukes are perfect nuke-stealer target), but cannot say it publicly because it proves his ability cannot NK the people visiting him? Um... didn't we get that verified when Caller claimed to have checked him? I feel like I did not completely understand your point here, so clarification is welcome. read closer. if citizen is townie (and apparently he gave up on claiming he has anything other than townie powers at this point), his 3 nukes are lying there waiting to be taken. why weren't they? Moreover, if you're going to try and "rip this to shreds", acknowledge the next paragraph: the fact that citi.zen lied about his claim. What is your take on this? On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote: Argument against setup "all we know is that there isn't five mafia": your entire argument hinges on this argument being true. I can only see you thinking Caller/~OpZ~/Abenson/d3/yourself are Townies, because otherwise I cannot see why you would make such statement with confidence. Let me state this means nothing. If Caller is Mafia he and d3_crescentia are no longer confirmed Townie. If so it is still possible there are five Mafia present in the game. Also, you berate laaan for never "[considering] the point that there might not be four mafia, but less", but did anyone ever express an opinion that there might be less than three Mafia previous to your post? Actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that citi.zen lied about his roleclaim. Just like Nikon lied about his. But, let me lay this out as well for completeness' sake: There are 9 people. Mafia's win condition is to have majority of town during the day time. If there were 5 mafia, they would have majority control, hence they would win. They have not, ergo there are not 5 mafia. I am really really distraught that townies (CONFIRMED townies no less) are switching votes from someone who has lied about their claim multiple times and doesn't seem to care! | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
As for the five Mafia thing, oops.  Finally I think nuke ~OpZ~ launched against laaan is real, which is why I have not been discussing any of JeeJee's point about him at all- he is going to be verified sooner or later. Only thing town has to do is extend a day by launching a fake nuke after all. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
You didn't argue WITH ANYONE for not voting, despite you thinking the WHOLE TOWN should be thinking. This is not what you do. I argued all day, and extended the day MULTIPLE times, and set up a decent idea yesterday. I tried to pull votes, I bashed Caller all day yesterday. Even suggested Nikon was third party. And then next, IF you KNEW as you claim I was going to extend the day, THEN PLEASE EXPLAIN why casting your vote mattered? There is no lynch til all nukes land, and according to you, you knew they wouldn't be landing anytime soon. Not like it would matter. and AGAIN Do you not realize that why I changed my vote doesn't matter? I've done explained IF I DIDN'T THE DAY WOULD HAVE ENDED. You pointed this out. I've pointed this out. You seem to be okay with the day not being over, but upset about me changing my vote? Because if I didn't then Citizen would have been lynched by his own hand? Because I wanted more discussion? Because you didn't vote? Because I think Caller is mafia? Because I'm stupid? Because I'm a jack ass? TAKE A REASON. Stop pointing your dirty red fingers at me. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too. For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum" "Nah sike, I'm JAPAN" "I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!" Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:20 flamewheel91 wrote: seriously, this is getting juicy | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
You actually made pretty good points. I concede on your first and second point for now, and Mafia number argument had come from my momentary lapse into stupidity. On April 09 2010 08:36 JeeJee wrote: read closer. if citizen is townie (and apparently he gave up on claiming he has anything other than townie powers at this point), his 3 nukes are lying there waiting to be taken. why weren't they? First, you are ignoring my first paragraph that Mafia could have tried to frame more evidence against him, but I'll accept that this is a point that cannot be verified. Second, On April 09 2010 06:36 ~OpZ~ wrote: Why wouldn't citizens nukes have been stolen? Because the mafia take him to be PGO. Caller claims the only person that mafia can't NK without dying is scum because his team can't NK him. So can we lynch Caller and get on with this game now? I already posted my opinion about how citizen lied about his claim: [Your] fourth point are mainly acceptable, but I cannot believe you are seriously sticking to inconsistencies argument. Your second and fourth point becomes absolutely obsolete if we assume citizen is being truthful. I mean, you are free to assume paranoid gun owner must have NK counter ability, but unless you are able to verify that claim you have no right to treat citizen's ability as false. This is lylo situation- are you seriously willing to vote citizen over Caller just because of this single assumption? The fact that strongest argument against citizen are built upon the assumption that Paranoid Gun Owner must have NK counter ability is really making me nervous. First, you are ignoring my first paragraph that Mafia could have tried to frame more evidence against him, but I'll accept that this is a point that cannot be verified. Second, On April 09 2010 06:36 ~OpZ~ wrote: Why wouldn't citizens nukes have been stolen? Because the mafia take him to be PGO. Caller claims the only person that mafia can't NK without dying is scum because his team can't NK him. So can we lynch Caller and get on with this game now? I already posted my opinion about how citizen lied about his claim: [Your] fourth point are mainly acceptable, but I cannot believe you are seriously sticking to inconsistencies argument. Your second and fourth point becomes absolutely obsolete if we assume citizen is being truthful. I mean, you are free to assume paranoid gun owner must have NK counter ability, but unless you are able to verify that claim you have no right to treat citizen's ability as false. This is lylo situation- are you seriously willing to vote citizen over Caller just because of this single assumption? The fact that strongest argument against citizen are built upon the assumption that Paranoid Gun Owner must have NK counter ability is really making me nervous. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote: JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again. You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too. For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum" "Nah sike, I'm JAPAN" "I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!" Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
It's even funnier when you know about everything! | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:25 haster27 wrote: First, you are ignoring my first paragraph that Mafia could have tried to frame more evidence against him, but I'll accept that this is a point that cannot be verified. Second, God thank you for re-posting this. JeeJee, of COURSE caller would claim AGAINST THE PGO. They can't Kill him AND win in one move. Why not just lynch him, because his role CANT BE VERIFIED. If you're scum, why not attack the one person who has the least evidence supporting him, while still having virtually NO EVIDENCE against him either. Although I did attack infund a while back....maybe someone should resurrect those posts....lol | ||
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Elemenope
Burkina Faso1704 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:00 ~OpZ~ wrote: LMNOP are you missing the fact that you argued COMPLETELY against ONLY citizen and not caller? No, I'm really not. What else do I have to argue when Caller's situation makes sense in retrospect; however the role claim of a role whose inherent role properties have been removed when no other role in the game has had any portion of their role taken away is very suspicious to me. This has been the whole point of why I railed against citizen/infund, because the role of Paranoid Gun Owner has been claimed by infund yesterday, yet even by his/citizen's own admission today, that is not in fact what their role is. Are you completely missing this fact? You didn't argue WITH ANYONE for not voting, despite you thinking the WHOLE TOWN should be thinking. This is not what you do. I argued all day, and extended the day MULTIPLE times, and set up a decent idea yesterday. I tried to pull votes, I bashed Caller all day yesterday. Even suggested Nikon was third party. And then next, IF you KNEW as you claim I was going to extend the day, THEN PLEASE EXPLAIN why casting your vote mattered? There is no lynch til all nukes land, and according to you, you knew they wouldn't be landing anytime soon. Not like it would matter. and AGAIN Do you not realize that why I changed my vote doesn't matter? I've done explained IF I DIDN'T THE DAY WOULD HAVE ENDED. You pointed this out. I've pointed this out. You seem to be okay with the day not being over, but upset about me changing my vote? Because if I didn't then Citizen would have been lynched by his own hand? Because I wanted more discussion? Because you didn't vote? Because I think Caller is mafia? Because I'm stupid? Because I'm a jack ass? TAKE A REASON. Stop pointing your dirty red fingers at me. The reason I didn't cast a vote? Because we don't know if mafia have an anti-nuke or not still Seriously, Why the fuck are you guys casting votes when we have no idea if there's a mafia anti-nuke out there? If there's a majority on a townie, that's a fucking game over right there if mafia launch an anti-nuke. Think. This is why I'm upset. The fact that you railed against Caller yesterday, suddenly reversed your opinion in an almost 180 degrees today when Caller does his claim, then do another 180 for no apparent reason at the very last fucking second in order to get a majority on Caller. I'm finding your Mason claim especially suspicious now. First off: you two are Masons, supposedly confirmed on Day 1. I'm not sure if other people realize this but Masons are a very fucking important role for the town. They have free communication with each other, they know each other to be confirmed townies. This is a tremendous advantage in terms of information gathering. The fact that the mafia haven't killed you yet to nullify this advantage just amazes the fuck out of me. Secondly: You guys seem to be hardly coordinated as Masons. First lynch: 15 people vote for RoL, you two were two among them. Second lynch on Xelin: Abenson votes for Xelin while you vote for Caller. Third lynch on Nikon: Abenson doesn't even vote while you vote for Caller. You guys are supposed to be Masons. Confirmed townies that know each other to be confirmed townies. Yet you guys can't even coordinate your votes properly. Bad Mason communication? Or perhaps mafia trying to spread votes? Thirdly: This whole day? Looks like fucking bullshit overall. Seriously. I don't see the logic at all from going to attacking Caller yesterday, even claiming that Caller should be lynched over Nikon yesterday, to defending Caller and throwing a vote on citizen, then at the last second switching to Caller and claiming that you don't need to give the reason for your switch in vote other than "well, he could be lying." Well guess what, so could every fucking person in here. The fact that both you, abenson, citizen, *and* haster all voted for Caller, tipping this into a precarious situation doesn't sit well with me. On top of that, with this missile being shot, this looks like a fucking setup in order to get a townie killed through having a majority vote sit during a nuke launch, then anti-nuking it while it's in the air. This whole nuke passing thing seems like bullshit, especially since they can choose to do it as many times in the day as they please it seems. Even looking back, it makes sense too. As I said earlier, what if the mafia have an anti-nuke still available? You two have been the ones initiating these false nukes today and yesterday in order to extend the time. Then when nemy launches a missile, and gets it reflected back, you save an anti-missile. This creates the illusion that there are no anti-missiles available to the town to use. Then suddenly, you two launch these presumably fake nukes with the same intention of making sure a majority vote doesn't happen too soon and that we have things to discuss, but at the same time, masking your intention to get a majority vote on a townie, then doing a surprise anti-nuke and thus ending the game. I have no nukes and have no problem launching a fake in order to extend the day if this is going to be ignored in favored of a "well, this guy seemed suspicious from day 1, so let's lynch him when we're in a lylo situation" defense. If you want a vote ##vote: Opz. I would highly suggest, haster, that you look at your vote again. The so-called Masons may in fact just be fucking Mafia. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote: Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. Having a restriction on when you can launch your nukes isn't being an actual townie. That's having a role that stops you from launching your nukes unless your nuked. Big difference between townies. Caller's logic is flawed on Iaaan's role. Nikon had a role related to nukes. I image our "One Shot Day Doc" had a role that related to nukes. RoL had a role that was related to nukes. And again, WHY WOULD CITIZEN/infund PUBLICLY argue they kill the person who comes to them at night. I wouldn't say that. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:36 ~OpZ~ wrote: God thank you for re-posting this. JeeJee, of COURSE caller would claim AGAINST THE PGO. They can't Kill him AND win in one move. Why not just lynch him, because his role CANT BE VERIFIED. If you're scum, why not attack the one person who has the least evidence supporting him, while still having virtually NO EVIDENCE against him either. Although I did attack infund a while back....maybe someone should resurrect those posts....lol first i'm sad you ignored my post completely. i would advise you to address it pbp style, like I have done with yours. For infundi, actually you and myself have railed against him in the past, you doing your typical thing, and me calling him a possibly lurking mafia given the inactivity he has portrayed. But we can't have debate if you ignore my posts i'm afraid =/ | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
Also why in the world would you check infund out of all the suspects? Since you are so convinced that his role meant automatic retaliation, you should have avoided him at all costs and checked me like ~OpZ~ suggested. Look, everyone agreed that Mafia and Townie numbers were getting dangerously close, and keeping even one Townie alive was important. So why would you ignore recommendation from confirmed Townie and on your own make a decision that could have costed your life? If infund indeed have been paranoid gun owner (Townie), you (Townie Detective) would have been killed. Thus your took unnecessary action that would have placed the Town in worse position. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On April 09 2010 09:41 ~OpZ~ wrote: Having a restriction on when you can launch your nukes isn't being an actual townie. That's having a role that stops you from launching your nukes unless your nuked. Big difference between townies. Caller's logic is flawed on Iaaan's role. Nikon had a role related to nukes. I image our "One Shot Day Doc" had a role that related to nukes. RoL had a role that was related to nukes. And again, WHY WOULD CITIZEN/infund PUBLICLY argue they kill the person who comes to them at night. I wouldn't say that. Actually, our "one shot day doc" was simply a colorful name for a townie who had an antinuke at his disposal. I PMd Ace about this because i was freaked that we lost two doc's (L and BM) in the first day and there is no way there would be a third doc with 1kp mafia. The thing is, they have said it. By claiming PGO, you are claiming you kill people that visit you at night. Likewise, if I were to claim vigi, I claim I can kill a person of my choosing at night. Don't you think if I came out and said "Hey guys, I'm a vigi, my special power is voting during the day" it would look just a wee bit sketchy? A claim like that is lynch-worthy. Every time. Look at Nikon "Hey guys I'm a vet and my power is to.... reflect nukes? oops back to scumville I go" I'm really confused by your underlying motive to argue this. We have a false claimer in our hands and we're ignoring it? When is this ever a good play? | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
The reason I didn't cast a vote? Because we don't know if mafia have an anti-nuke or not still Seriously, Why the fuck are you guys casting votes when we have no idea if there's a mafia anti-nuke out there? If there's a majority on a townie, that's a fucking game over right there if mafia launch an anti-nuke. Think. It does not matter. In every instance the nuke was intercepted, the day still continued on as normal because the fact that nuke has been intercepted is only revealed at the time nuke is supposed to land. Since your entire argument against ~OpZ~ being Mafia relies on this misunderstanding, this effectively nullifies your entire case against him. This is why I'm upset. The fact that you railed against Caller yesterday, suddenly reversed your opinion in an almost 180 degrees today when Caller does his claim, then do another 180 for no apparent reason at the very last fucking second in order to get a majority on Caller. I'm finding your Mason claim especially suspicious now. In fact I find this absoultely brilliant; I think I understand the reasoning behind his actions, but I am going to keep silent about this unless ~OpZ~ himself speaks up. | ||
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