EPT2012 Olympics Event Discussion Thread - Page 136
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
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r00ty
Germany1101 Posts
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Mondieu
Romania803 Posts
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
On August 01 2012 08:22 Mondieu wrote: i didn't even know north korea sends people to the Olympics until this year^^ those dictatorhips always think it makes them look awesome in the worlds eyes if they win some medals. And of course the olympics wont reject countries because the games arent political. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Also, some of the lower weight classes in certain sports are virtually extinct in first world countries. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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ecstatica
United States542 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:13 andrewlt wrote: I'm surprised people have not yet caught on to the strategy of the Chinese and North Koreans. It's the low hanging fruit strategy. They're going after the less popular sports with weaker fields that give out a lot of medals. Sure, China is historically strong in certain more popular sports and they're trying to be competitive in many others. However, it is in the less popular ones where they are really cleaning up. Also, some of the lower weight classes in certain sports are virtually extinct in first world countries. China has enough presense in about every discipline. If you really want to blame someone then blame other countries for not being competitive at weightlifting/boxing/whatever else you think is a low hanging fruit. I'm not sure how any of those are unpopular disciplines but w/e, it's good to have a theory regardless. Kazakhstan for instance has 3 gold, but all of those were traditionally their strong programs. Same with NK. I can't say same with China, sorry, China just owns. I am not even Asian, just trying to be realistic. | ||
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vindKtiv
United States215 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:13 andrewlt wrote: I'm surprised people have not yet caught on to the strategy of the Chinese and North Koreans. It's the low hanging fruit strategy. They're going after the less popular sports with weaker fields that give out a lot of medals. Sure, China is historically strong in certain more popular sports and they're trying to be competitive in many others. However, it is in the less popular ones where they are really cleaning up. Also, some of the lower weight classes in certain sports are virtually extinct in first world countries. Seriously, "strategy"? Do you actually think that the Chinese government have any more of a "strategy" in the Olympics than any western country? Do you honestly think that the Chinese government is consciously putting in extra resources to create athletes for "less popular sports" in a petty attempt to gain worldwide acknowledgement? Do you believe so much into propaganda that you need to revert to conspiracy theories in order to rationalize the fact that China is currently neck-and-neck with the United States? Do you so buy into the idea that NK is a backassward and inferior country that the fact that they won one medal makes you dismiss a whole weightclass? The athletes won because they trained harder and wanted it more. The fact that you dismiss their personal triumphs as "strategy" by NK/China to gain medals is disgusting. Not only is that insulting to the NK/Chinese athletes, it is insulting to every single other athlete in their event that you would dismiss their event as "less popular sports with weaker fields." Pray tell me, what exactly constitues as a "less popular sport with weaker fields"? Because every event I see has cutthroat competition worthy of winning with plenty of stories. Just because NBC decided to mainly give focus to the American competitors (arguably understandable) doesn't mean that there was no story behind Chinese/NK medal wins. The Chinese/NK athletes aren't faceless robots churned out by the government to steal your medals from the Olympics, they are human too. I'm sorry if you honestly didn't mean "strategy" as in actual strategy, but your post comes off as ignorantly nationalistic. Too many people see China and NK as the "enemy" during the Olympics and it is kind of ridiculous. Just watch some good athletes and have fun, there is no need to politicize everything  . | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:34 ecstatica wrote: China has enough presense in about every discipline. If you really want to blame someone then blame other countries for not being competitive at weightlifting/boxing/whatever else you think is a low hanging fruit. I'm not sure how any of those are unpopular disciplines but w/e, it's good to have a theory regardless. Kazakhstan for instance has 3 gold, but all of those were traditionally their strong programs. Same with NK. I can't say same with China, sorry, China just owns. I am not even Asian, just trying to be realistic. I'm actually Chinese, though 3rd/4th generation immigrant. That's how I know their strategy. It's not a big secret. I actually thought it was common knowledge. I'm not blaming anyone, just being surprised at how many people don't know about it. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:58 andrewlt wrote: I'm actually Chinese, though 3rd/4th generation immigrant. That's how I know their strategy. It's not a big secret. I actually thought it was common knowledge. I'm not blaming anyone, just being surprised at how many people don't know about it. Yes, I'm sure Mr. Hu Jintao regularly phones up Mr. Andrewtt to consult on China's Olympics Strategy, codename Operation Crush Capitalism. Countries who have traditionally been strong in an event tend to continue to be strong...there's more infrastructure and resources to draw upon, as well as more people being funneled into those events lol. Not exactly a complicated model, but ok... | ||
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dartoo
India2889 Posts
On August 01 2012 08:33 LaNague wrote: those dictatorhips always think it makes them look awesome in the worlds eyes if they win some medals. And of course the olympics wont reject countries because the games arent political. Well the weight lifters did actually look cool when they won...they do the air force ace salute thing! :D | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:58 andrewlt wrote: I'm actually Chinese, though 3rd/4th generation immigrant. That's how I know their strategy. It's not a big secret. I actually thought it was common knowledge. I'm not blaming anyone, just being surprised at how many people don't know about it. please tell me more about your 4th generation inside info it just seems like you're demeaning what the chinese and north koreans are doing. oh no they're funding less popular sports so athletes can succeed...i applaud them for that. in the usa the best woman weightlifter has a stipend of 400$ a month and has to receive donations in order to train. that's just really sad. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:54 vindKtiv wrote: Seriously, "strategy"? Do you actually think that the Chinese government have any more of a "strategy" in the Olympics than any western country? Do you honestly think that the Chinese government is consciously putting in extra resources to create athletes for "less popular sports" in a petty attempt to gain worldwide acknowledgement? Do you believe so much into propaganda that you need to revert to conspiracy theories in order to rationalize the fact that China is currently neck-and-neck with the United States? Do you so buy into the idea that NK is a backassward and inferior country that the fact that they won one medal makes you dismiss a whole weightclass? The athletes won because they trained harder and wanted it more. The fact that you dismiss their personal triumphs as "strategy" by NK/China to gain medals is disgusting. Not only is that insulting to the NK/Chinese athletes, it is insulting to every single other athlete in their event that you would dismiss their event as "less popular sports with weaker fields." Pray tell me, what exactly constitues as a "less popular sport with weaker fields"? Because every event I see has cutthroat competition worthy of winning with plenty of stories. Just because NBC decided to mainly give focus to the American competitors (arguably understandable) doesn't mean that there was no story behind Chinese/NK medal wins. The Chinese/NK athletes aren't faceless robots churned out by the government to steal your medals from the Olympics, they are human too. I'm sorry if you honestly didn't mean "strategy" as in actual strategy, but your post comes off as ignorantly nationalistic. Too many people see China and NK as the "enemy" during the Olympics and it is kind of ridiculous. Just watch some good athletes and have fun, there is no need to politicize everything .Wow... Just wow... Don't just assume that other people that list "United States" as their location on TL is some white trash from rural America. My family came from China. I grew up in the Philippines and went to the US on my own. This isn't propaganda. This is simply me having lived in closer proximity to China than most people in the US. That and having the perspective of how three different countries with different wealth levels choose their Olympians. You're ignoring that every country sends and chooses its athletes in a different way. For much of the Western world, athletes choose their own sport. The best athletes gravitate towards the sports that are more popular in their home countries. Furthermore, those athletes are mostly funded with sponsorships. Even ignoring NBA stars, there's a huge difference between some Olympians who can train full time and some who actually have real jobs and can only train part time. Other countries do it differently. They are not as dependent on sponsorships as many Western athletes are. Here's something you might not know about China's program. For years, China chooses which athletes concentrate in which sport. They have liberalized their program a lot since then, but many kids are still steered towards the sports that the apparatus thinks they will do better in, not the ones they like. You can find no better example than China's basketball team. China's strength is still in their front line. That's because many athletes with prototypical guard sizes are being steered towards other sports. Do some reading before you criticize other people. Find articles from non-US sources. There are enough English dailies between Asian countries that are good at the English language like the Philippines, Malaysia and Singapore or Chinese territories like Taiwan and Hong Kong. It's all there to see. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:20 shawster wrote: please tell me more about your 4th generation inside info it just seems like you're demeaning what the chinese and north koreans are doing. oh no they're funding less popular sports so athletes can succeed...i applaud them for that. in the usa the best woman weightlifter has a stipend of 400$ a month and has to receive donations in order to train. that's just really sad. I'm not demeaning what they are doing. Sorry if it came about like that. And like I said, there's nothing secret about this. It's not inside info. I read a lot of newspapers and newsmagazines from that area back when I still lived in the Philippines. Time and Reader's Digest have Asian editions as well as other business journals (Asianweek, etc.) and the like. I'm not even sure why you guys are criticizing me about this info. Believe it or not, these countries are actually proud of how their programs work versus their Western counterparts. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:54 vindKtiv wrote: Seriously, "strategy"? Do you actually think that the Chinese government have any more of a "strategy" in the Olympics than any western country? Do you honestly think that the Chinese government is consciously putting in extra resources to create athletes for "less popular sports" in a petty attempt to gain worldwide acknowledgement? Do you believe so much into propaganda that you need to revert to conspiracy theories in order to rationalize the fact that China is currently neck-and-neck with the United States? Do you so buy into the idea that NK is a backassward and inferior country that the fact that they won one medal makes you dismiss a whole weightclass? The athletes won because they trained harder and wanted it more. The fact that you dismiss their personal triumphs as "strategy" by NK/China to gain medals is disgusting. Not only is that insulting to the NK/Chinese athletes, it is insulting to every single other athlete in their event that you would dismiss their event as "less popular sports with weaker fields." Pray tell me, what exactly constitues as a "less popular sport with weaker fields"? Because every event I see has cutthroat competition worthy of winning with plenty of stories. Just because NBC decided to mainly give focus to the American competitors (arguably understandable) doesn't mean that there was no story behind Chinese/NK medal wins. The Chinese/NK athletes aren't faceless robots churned out by the government to steal your medals from the Olympics, they are human too. I'm sorry if you honestly didn't mean "strategy" as in actual strategy, but your post comes off as ignorantly nationalistic. Too many people see China and NK as the "enemy" during the Olympics and it is kind of ridiculous. Just watch some good athletes and have fun, there is no need to politicize everything .you know that 99% of the time a nation becomes good in a certain discipline it's a political decision a decade ago? Sport is heavily politicized like it or not and every countries has its own strategy, usually around either strengthening its main points (NZ in rugby, Georgia at the olympics ect...) or improving its weak point (France in natation/handball, spain in tennis) every country has a wide amount of potential olympic winners, politics/sport infrastructures job is just to grew this talent. Sadly i doubt you can read french but there is a beginning on the topic: http://www.slate.fr/france/59971/natation-handball-medailles-france here about the selection of potentials: http://www.slate.fr/life/59381/jeux-olympiques-detection-champions | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
But who knows, China is changing so fast. | ||
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vindKtiv
United States215 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:40 sAsImre wrote: you know that 99% of the time a nation becomes good in a certain discipline it's a political decision a decade ago? Sport is heavily politicized like it or not and every countries has its own strategy, usually around either strengthening its main points (NZ in rugby, Georgia at the olympics ect...) or improving its weak point (France in natation/handball, spain in tennis) every country has a wide amount of potential olympic winners, politics/sport infrastructures job is just to grew this talent. Sadly i doubt you can read french but there is a beginning on the topic: http://www.slate.fr/france/59971/natation-handball-medailles-france here about the selection of potentials: http://www.slate.fr/life/59381/jeux-olympiques-detection-champions Dude I agree 100% with you. I'm trying to say exactly what you are trying to say: that every decision is politicized, not just the Chinese government's. The original post I was quoting implied that it was exclusive to China and North Korea, that they had a "strategy" for the "low hanging fruit." I was just trying to say that it is kind of ignorant to say that it is exclusive to China/NK, and the idea that they are going for the "low hanging fruit" is stupid because there are "low hanging fruit" in the first place. I agree that politics are heavily involved, but that doesn't mean that we should dismiss individual achievements. Wow... Just wow... Don't just assume that other people that list "United States" as their location on TL is some white trash from rural America. My family came from China. I grew up in the Philippines and went to the US on my own. This isn't propaganda. This is simply me having lived in closer proximity to China than most people in the US. That and having the perspective of how three different countries with different wealth levels choose their Olympians. You're ignoring that every country sends and chooses its athletes in a different way. For much of the Western world, athletes choose their own sport. The best athletes gravitate towards the sports that are more popular in their home countries. Furthermore, those athletes are mostly funded with sponsorships. Even ignoring NBA stars, there's a huge difference between some Olympians who can train full time and some who actually have real jobs and can only train part time. Other countries do it differently. They are not as dependent on sponsorships as many Western athletes are. Here's something you might not know about China's program. For years, China chooses which athletes concentrate in which sport. They have liberalized their program a lot since then, but many kids are still steered towards the sports that the apparatus thinks they will do better in, not the ones they like. You can find no better example than China's basketball team. China's strength is still in their front line. That's because many athletes with prototypical guard sizes are being steered towards other sports. Do some reading before you criticize other people. Find articles from non-US sources. There are enough English dailies between Asian countries that are good at the English language like the Philippines, Malaysia and Singapore or Chinese territories like Taiwan and Hong Kong. It's all there to see. I think I came off as too insulting in my last post, so sorry if it seemed that way. I wasn't trying to be insulting. Now where to start? First of all, just because you "came" from China doesn't mean you are free from bias when talking about China like you think it does. For the record, I "came" from China too. Second of all, just because you grew up in the Phillipines does not mean you are free from the ignorance that you believe pervades "rural America." "Rural America" is not as ignorant as you believe, nor are you as enlightened as you believe  .I agree 100% with with the difference in choosing candidates. But the part where we differ is where you say there is a difference in athletic program. You might know a lot about the Chinese program, but you might want to "do some reading" about the western athletic program as well. Do you honestly think that the Olympic gymnasts of the United States chose to be gymnasts after reaching a certain age where they can make adult choices? Most of them still aren't at the age to make adult choices, their parents chose them to do gymnastics and they turned out to be some of the best. And when they wanted to quit, do you think their parents let them? They wouldn't be at the Olympics if they quit when they wanted would they? I'm not at all arguing that the Chinese Olympic program is good. It is not at all good in anyway. I'm arguing that it isn't all flowers in the US either, so if you are going to knock on China/NK, you might as well knock on every other country as well. The thing is, while it might be the government that chooses who to train and send in China, it is the parents who choose their kids to train and send in the United States. You are going to subject a kid to pain if you want him/her to be an Olympic athlete, the only difference between China/NK and the western world is who inflicts the pain: the government or the parents. You never just "choose" to undertake the rigorous training to become an Olympic athlete, because by the time you reach the age where you can make a serious choice, you are already too old. And by the way, your basketball example? Where are the "prototypical" guard sizes in the US national basketball team? Each player is a perfect specimen with a body tailored to their position. All the people that didn't make it are languishing in the D-leagues and most don't even make it past high school or college. A huge part about being an athlete is, if you don't have the right body size you won't make it to the Olympics. If the government won't steer you towards a different sport, reality will. Your going to get pain from the child either way, and you are going to have to do some forcing either way and if a government isn't going to steer you towards something else then competition will. So what is the major difference? And if there is no major difference, why are you dismissing the achievements of NK/China? Being an athlete is an extremely hard thing to do and that is why we celebrate it. So when you dismiss the achievements of the NK/Chinese athletes? That's pretty damn disgusting. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18775 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:26 sAsImre wrote: you've a loser bracket if you reach the ro8 (starting ro32). since they changed (for the worst imo) the rules you see a lot of golden scores, and you see lot of athletes being totally exhausted in their last round (final/bronze match), it'd not be possible to get a true lb, and that would fuck up the finals too. bo3 is just stupid Well you could divide the event in two days instead of doing it all in one? | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On August 01 2012 11:37 vindKtiv wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On August 01 2012 10:40 sAsImre wrote: you know that 99% of the time a nation becomes good in a certain discipline it's a political decision a decade ago? Sport is heavily politicized like it or not and every countries has its own strategy, usually around either strengthening its main points (NZ in rugby, Georgia at the olympics ect...) or improving its weak point (France in natation/handball, spain in tennis) every country has a wide amount of potential olympic winners, politics/sport infrastructures job is just to grew this talent. Sadly i doubt you can read french but there is a beginning on the topic: http://www.slate.fr/france/59971/natation-handball-medailles-france here about the selection of potentials: http://www.slate.fr/life/59381/jeux-olympiques-detection-champions Dude I agree 100% with you. I'm trying to say exactly what you are trying to say: that every decision is politicized, not just the Chinese government's. The original post I was quoting implied that it was exclusive to China and North Korea, that they had a "strategy" for the "low hanging fruit." I was just trying to say that it is kind of ignorant to say that it is exclusive to China/NK, and the idea that they are going for the "low hanging fruit" is stupid because there are "low hanging fruit" in the first place. I agree that politics are heavily involved, but that doesn't mean that we should dismiss individual achievements. Wow... Just wow... Don't just assume that other people that list "United States" as their location on TL is some white trash from rural America. My family came from China. I grew up in the Philippines and went to the US on my own. This isn't propaganda. This is simply me having lived in closer proximity to China than most people in the US. That and having the perspective of how three different countries with different wealth levels choose their Olympians. You're ignoring that every country sends and chooses its athletes in a different way. For much of the Western world, athletes choose their own sport. The best athletes gravitate towards the sports that are more popular in their home countries. Furthermore, those athletes are mostly funded with sponsorships. Even ignoring NBA stars, there's a huge difference between some Olympians who can train full time and some who actually have real jobs and can only train part time. Other countries do it differently. They are not as dependent on sponsorships as many Western athletes are. Here's something you might not know about China's program. For years, China chooses which athletes concentrate in which sport. They have liberalized their program a lot since then, but many kids are still steered towards the sports that the apparatus thinks they will do better in, not the ones they like. You can find no better example than China's basketball team. China's strength is still in their front line. That's because many athletes with prototypical guard sizes are being steered towards other sports. Do some reading before you criticize other people. Find articles from non-US sources. There are enough English dailies between Asian countries that are good at the English language like the Philippines, Malaysia and Singapore or Chinese territories like Taiwan and Hong Kong. It's all there to see. I think I came off as too insulting in my last post, so sorry if it seemed that way. I wasn't trying to be insulting. Now where to start? First of all, just because you "came" from China doesn't mean you are free from bias when talking about China like you think it does. For the record, I "came" from China too. Second of all, just because you grew up in the Phillipines does not mean you are free from the ignorance that you believe pervades "rural America." "Rural America" is not as ignorant as you believe, nor are you as enlightened as you believe .I agree 100% with with the difference in choosing candidates. But the part where we differ is where you say there is a difference in athletic program. You might know a lot about the Chinese program, but you might want to "do some reading" about the western athletic program as well. Do you honestly think that the Olympic gymnasts of the United States chose to be gymnasts after reaching a certain age where they can make adult choices? Most of them still aren't at the age to make adult choices, their parents chose them to do gymnastics and they turned out to be some of the best. And when they wanted to quit, do you think their parents let them? They wouldn't be at the Olympics if they quit when they wanted would they? I'm not at all arguing that the Chinese Olympic program is good. It is not at all good in anyway. I'm arguing that it isn't all flowers in the US either, so if you are going to knock on China/NK, you might as well knock on every other country as well. The thing is, while it might be the government that chooses who to train and send in China, it is the parents who choose their kids to train and send in the United States. You are going to subject a kid to pain if you want him/her to be an Olympic athlete, the only difference between China/NK and the western world is who inflicts the pain: the government or the parents. You never just "choose" to undertake the rigorous training to become an Olympic athlete, because by the time you reach the age where you can make a serious choice, you are already too old. And by the way, your basketball example? Where are the "prototypical" guard sizes in the US national basketball team? Each player is a perfect specimen with a body tailored to their position. All the people that didn't make it are languishing in the D-leagues and most don't even make it past high school or college. A huge part about being an athlete is, if you don't have the right body size you won't make it to the Olympics. If the government won't steer you towards a different sport, reality will. Your going to get pain from the child either way, and you are going to have to do some forcing either way and if a government isn't going to steer you towards something else then competition will. So what is the major difference? And if there is no major difference, why are you dismissing the achievements of NK/China? Being an athlete is an extremely hard thing to do and that is why we celebrate it. So when you dismiss the achievements of the NK/Chinese athletes? That's pretty damn disgusting. Spoilered because it was getting too long. You're responding to something I didn't imply. And for the record, I only brought up "rural America" because your post seemed to imply I was another one of those clueless nationalistic white people. I guess we're even in that regard. For basketball, point guards are normally around low 6 feet to mid 6 feet. People of that height can excel in multiple sports. The government steering in China resulted in a team that had talented players in the forward/center positions but the guard positions were a bit of an afterthought. Some athletes who could have been good guards got steered to other sports. They realized that problem eventually but the talent on their national squad is still a bit light on guards. I don't get why you keep insisting I'm dismissing the achievements of NK/Chinese athletes. I was only trying to explain to people posting in the last few pages why countries such as NK/China dominate in sports such as weightlifting, which isn't that popular in China. I don't about NK, but then again, who does? It isn't like badminton and table tennis, which are relatively more popular in China. China will dominate those two latter sports even if they adopt the Western model. Don't put too much emphasis on the very arbitrary cutoff point of 18 years old. Children, especially in Western nations, do have some choice before that arbitrary cutoff age and other people can still influence you past that age. I think you have too dark a view of the programs that create these athletes. The vast majority do enjoy the sport they chose or got steered to to some degree. Even in China, a little kid can pretend to suck if they really didn't want to do the sport they were being steered to. | ||
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