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On September 29 2013 03:02 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 00:42 Volband wrote:
I've never been happier to leave a fully played bo5 during the second game. I don't know if I should blame Riot or it's just the pro scene that's so not flexible sometimes, but that limited champion pool is driving me crazy. "Koreans; Faker's got tremendous champion pool; blabla" - and then we get this.
I'm fully aware that they it'ss pretty much a must to pick currently broken champs, but don't tell me it's fine when 17 champion is used in 5 games of a bo5 (21 with the bans). Whatever, random rant.
Let's hope Fnatic puts up a good fight. In my heart I'm believin', but those Royal games still give me nightmares. It should've been 18+. I am on the same boat, aout mid of second game I left the series, games seemed so lackluster. Lol needs more champions to be viable. I dont know how that can be doe, but needs to be done :/ (Maybe putting more power in items and reducing the power in champions?)
I'd say at least 80+ champions are perfectly viable. I think this has been touched on plenty of times in the TL LoL forum but the problem above all is the draft and ban phase. I think emulating DotA's pick/ban system would drastically the amount of played champions.
Honestly, apart from Zed / Ahri / Corki and a few others, most of the frequently played champions aren't even overpowered or anything. Zed is probably the only god-tier pick right now. Anyone remember pre-nerfed Orianna and the like? The game balance has gotten much better, it's just that the pro scene has standardised and LoL's pick phase leaves no reason to go outside of your comfort picks most of the time.
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On September 29 2013 03:02 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 00:42 Volband wrote:
I've never been happier to leave a fully played bo5 during the second game. I don't know if I should blame Riot or it's just the pro scene that's so not flexible sometimes, but that limited champion pool is driving me crazy. "Koreans; Faker's got tremendous champion pool; blabla" - and then we get this.
I'm fully aware that they it'ss pretty much a must to pick currently broken champs, but don't tell me it's fine when 17 champion is used in 5 games of a bo5 (21 with the bans). Whatever, random rant.
Let's hope Fnatic puts up a good fight. In my heart I'm believin', but those Royal games still give me nightmares. It should've been 18+. I am on the same boat, aout mid of second game I left the series, games seemed so lackluster. Lol needs more champions to be viable. I dont know how that can be doe, but needs to be done :/ (Maybe putting more power in items and reducing the power in champions?)
Yeah much better to be DOTA where the team that had wisp won 100% of the matches in the final series.
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On September 29 2013 03:12 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 03:02 Usagi wrote:On September 29 2013 00:42 Volband wrote:
I've never been happier to leave a fully played bo5 during the second game. I don't know if I should blame Riot or it's just the pro scene that's so not flexible sometimes, but that limited champion pool is driving me crazy. "Koreans; Faker's got tremendous champion pool; blabla" - and then we get this.
I'm fully aware that they it'ss pretty much a must to pick currently broken champs, but don't tell me it's fine when 17 champion is used in 5 games of a bo5 (21 with the bans). Whatever, random rant.
Let's hope Fnatic puts up a good fight. In my heart I'm believin', but those Royal games still give me nightmares. It should've been 18+. I am on the same boat, aout mid of second game I left the series, games seemed so lackluster. Lol needs more champions to be viable. I dont know how that can be doe, but needs to be done :/ (Maybe putting more power in items and reducing the power in champions?) I'd say at least 80+ champions are perfectly viable. I think this has been touched on plenty of times in the TL LoL forum but the problem above all is the draft and ban phase. I think emulating DotA's pick/ban system would drastically the amount of played champions. Honestly, apart from Zed / Ahri / Corki and a few others, most of the frequently played champions aren't even overpowered or anything. It's just that LoL's pick phase leaves no reason to go outside of your comfort picks most of the time.
Also it happens very often that you have a small pool of champions in one series between 2 teams. In another series between 2 different teams it can be quite different, as we will hopefully see today.
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On September 29 2013 03:02 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 00:42 Volband wrote:
I've never been happier to leave a fully played bo5 during the second game. I don't know if I should blame Riot or it's just the pro scene that's so not flexible sometimes, but that limited champion pool is driving me crazy. "Koreans; Faker's got tremendous champion pool; blabla" - and then we get this.
I'm fully aware that they it'ss pretty much a must to pick currently broken champs, but don't tell me it's fine when 17 champion is used in 5 games of a bo5 (21 with the bans). Whatever, random rant.
Let's hope Fnatic puts up a good fight. In my heart I'm believin', but those Royal games still give me nightmares. It should've been 18+. I am on the same boat, aout mid of second game I left the series, games seemed so lackluster. Lol needs more champions to be viable. I dont know how that can be doe, but needs to be done :/ (M aybe putting more power in items and reducing the power in champions?)
That would make every champion less interesting. Since I started League, all I've seen from Riot is power-balance. This is too strong? KILL IT. This is too weak? Make it broken, so we can KILL IT later! Sometimes they hit a sweet spot, but that's usually just pure luck.
Like Renekton: I believe he is the single best thing that happened to competitive LoL in S3. I never ever saw him in S2, but coming into S3, he became a solid pick, who survived the BC-meta, the Warmog-meta, the PickJayceAndGoAfk-meta, the PickEliseAndGoAfk-meta, so on, so on. He hasn't been nerfed, he hasn't been buffed (not talking about indirect nerfs/buffs), he's just a damned solid champion with strengths and weaknesses, and the sole reason we still didn't forget the word "bruiser". Hell, I don't even enjoy watching someone playing Renekton, I think he's kinda dull, but that's his damn job, and he does it fine.
Elise came a close second, but it took almost a year for Riot to balance her out. Oooh, remember the first patch after Elise was released? She was buffed. BUFFED. Hahahaha. Makes you wonder if Riot has any clue what they are doing. Now they promise the same things for S4, and they might succeed in the support area (yet again, I might add, being a support in S3 was great), if they add more versatility to the jungle camps they might be fine there too, but do you really think these guys can fix top lane and 2v1? Hardly, not to mention that mid has the most entertaining champions, yet it's suffering since S2.
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If you haven't played since S1 you might not know, but Riot's balance department has steadily improved since the beginning. I remember Renekton being OP as fuck on release for example and he got nerfed a good amount. Other highlights include Rumble, Irelia or Orianna.
You might argue that their approach is not the best way, but they have done it like this since the beginning and they won't suddenly start using Icefrog's model after 4 years.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2013 02:27 Volband wrote:
Is League really a game where there's one single best strategy? The game balance is quite terrible atm, I know, but it's still far from the BC-era, where you only needed to have more ad casters than the enemy team, and you already won.
It's not that game balance is a problem. "Best strategy" doesn't mean the best strategy of the version, but the best strategy that a particular team is comfortable playing. With the current drafting paradigm, there's not enough ways for the other team to kick a team out of their comfort zone, so they can draft the same strategy. Slightly suboptimal picks don't outweigh the greater comfort with the strategy.
The key is that there are no bans in the system that occur after the team has committed to something. Because all 3 bans come out before picks, all bans have to be predictive, and none can be reactive. You're basically GUESSING at what the enemy team wants, and blind guessing won't actually force a team to change their plan. Usually they will have a contingency plan for those 1-2 picks that get banned that don't actually change their overall strategy. There'd be more variation if they have to consider reactive bans in a second phase when they've already committed to several picks.
On September 29 2013 03:13 Amethyst21 wrote:
Yeah much better to be DOTA where the team that had wisp won 100% of the matches in the final series.
The fact that you cite that statistic proves you don't know what you're talking about.
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On September 29 2013 03:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:27 Volband wrote:
Is League really a game where there's one single best strategy? The game balance is quite terrible atm, I know, but it's still far from the BC-era, where you only needed to have more ad casters than the enemy team, and you already won.
It's not that game balance is a problem. "Best strategy" doesn't mean the best strategy of the version, but the best strategy that a particular team is comfortable playing. With the current drafting paradigm, there's not enough ways for the other team to kick a team out of their comfort zone, so they can draft the same strategy. Slightly suboptimal picks don't outweigh the greater comfort with the strategy. The key is that there are no bans in the system that occur after the team has committed to something. Because all 3 bans come out before picks, all bans have to be predictive, and none can be reactive. You're basically GUESSING at what the enemy team wants, and blind guessing won't actually force a team to change their plan. Usually they will have a contingency plan for those 1-2 picks that get banned that don't actually change their overall strategy. There'd be more variation if they have to consider reactive bans in a second phase when they've already committed to several picks. Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 03:13 Amethyst21 wrote:
Yeah much better to be DOTA where the team that had wisp won 100% of the matches in the final series. The fact that you cite that statistic proves you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm curious, have you talked with Rioter's about the pick/ban phase? You think there's any chance they're going to change it for S4?
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On September 29 2013 03:21 Woony wrote:
You might argue that their approach is not the best way, but they have done it like this since the beginning and they won't suddenly start using Icefrog's model after 4 years.
I think they need to re-think that "same approach", which results in S3 BC, S3 Warmog, S3 BotRK, and now S3 TF. and that's just the item department.
While Renekton shows that Riot can be spot on sometimes, Trinity Force tells us the exact opposite. I nderstand that they'd like to cut some loose ends before worlds, and that's fine. I think we would all accepted that if they overnerf 1 or 2 champs before worlds for a greater good (or by mistake, whatever), but why do they change something so radically like they did with TF? I understand that the guy who came up with this idea was really excited, but for the love of God, can't you just wait 1 month? No one would care if TF remained the same.
Oh and yes, the bans, I forgot to mention that myself. It's true they need to change it up, but I wonder if Riot's willing to, or they'll just add a 4th ban. They might be too proud to make something dota2-like.
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Riot has shown a distinct lack of understanding about the drafting phase and interlacing bans. Unless something has changed internally I doubt there will be any change in S4. We should go and petition Neo our spokesman to organise us a meeting.
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Aren't you the one saying they shouldn't just nerf stuff? Trinity brought a few champions back into viability. It turned Corki into one of the strongest ADs but otherwise it's not that bad.
They eventually turned BC and BOTRK into viable niche items so I don't see what your point is. Should they just release all items as shitty?
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On September 29 2013 03:34 Numy wrote:
Riot has shown a distinct lack of understanding about the drafting phase and interlacing bans. Unless something has changed internally I doubt there will be any change in S4. We should go and petition Neo our spokesman to organise us a meeting.
How deep is Neo anyway? He sounds like a secret agent to me every time he says "I'm gonna talk to them". Or should I not ask questions regarding the mafia?
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United States47024 Posts
Strong champs are always an inevitability. Honestly, things haven't really been way out of line for a long time.
Champ/item balance isn't the issue here.
The fact that Riot already has Ahri on the chopping block just shows how they don't understand what the real issues are.
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The Renekton bit is partially untrue ( I agree he's a champion in a great spot ) he was useless when Kennen and Ryze were powerful and did disappear for that time period.
also trinity force isn't nearly as broken as people want you to belive, it's good, and could use a price hike, but it's not even in the ballpark of the first version of Botrk with daggers in the recipe or pre season BC
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On September 29 2013 03:36 Woony wrote:
Aren't you the one saying they shouldn't just nerf stuff? Trinity brought a few champions back into viability. It turned Corki into one of the strongest ADs but otherwise it's not that bad.
They eventually turned BC and BOTRK into viable niche items so I don't see what your point is. Should they just release all items as shitty?
I said they shouldn't just buff stuff, I'm fine with nerfing, as long as they 1. do it with a good reason, and they already came up with a solution 2. they admit they have know idea where do the problems lie, so they just hit it with the nerf-bat until it dies, then they'll have all the time they need to figure it out (or pussy out and rework it, though sometimes rework IS the answer, which is pretty sad, especially if you think about a newer champ like Rengar).
Just because eventually they manage to right their wrongs, they won't become a decent balance team. They screwed up these new items pretty badly, and the TF buff was the most retarded thing they could'Ve done before worlds. I don't care if they experiment in the off-season (that's the point of off-season anyway), they could reduce the cost of BF sword 1 gold for all I care; if they think it might work, then let's give it a try, but NOT before the most important tournament, please.
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again pre-nerf tear was more OP than current Triforce, it's really good and needs a price hike, but it's not even broken to the point where the stats need to be changed.
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On September 29 2013 03:42 Slusher wrote:
also trinity force isn't nearly as broken as people want you to belive, it's good, and could use a price hike, but it's not even in the ballpark of the first version of Botrk with daggers in the recipe or pre season BC
The main issue is changing something so drastically before worlds. Like really, would we talk about TF now, if they hadn'T done anything? "Maaaan, this match would've been so different, if they changed Trinity somehow.... don't ask me why I say this, TF has been barely used throughout the whole season ,but I just feel it!"
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On September 29 2013 03:42 Slusher wrote:
The Renekton bit is partially untrue ( I agree he's a champion in a great spot ) he was useless when Kennen and Ryze were powerful and did disappear for that time period.
also trinity force isn't nearly as broken as people want you to belive, it's good, and could use a price hike, but it's not even in the ballpark of the first version of Botrk with daggers in the recipe or pre season BC
I agree! People usually overhype when a new patch comes in. People instantly focus on one item being super op en gamechanging. Which is not true most of the times.
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On September 29 2013 03:13 Amethyst21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 03:02 Usagi wrote:On September 29 2013 00:42 Volband wrote:
I've never been happier to leave a fully played bo5 during the second game. I don't know if I should blame Riot or it's just the pro scene that's so not flexible sometimes, but that limited champion pool is driving me crazy. "Koreans; Faker's got tremendous champion pool; blabla" - and then we get this.
I'm fully aware that they it'ss pretty much a must to pick currently broken champs, but don't tell me it's fine when 17 champion is used in 5 games of a bo5 (21 with the bans). Whatever, random rant.
Let's hope Fnatic puts up a good fight. In my heart I'm believin', but those Royal games still give me nightmares. It should've been 18+. I am on the same boat, aout mid of second game I left the series, games seemed so lackluster. Lol needs more champions to be viable. I dont know how that can be doe, but needs to be done :/ (Maybe putting more power in items and reducing the power in champions?) Yeah much better to be DOTA where the team that had wisp won 100% of the matches in the final series.
Eastern teams were crap with wisp. They couldn't deal with it and banned it or lost to it. western teams didn't have this issue because they understood that hero a lot better (not denying that wisp is a strong pick).
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was that Kim carrier with Maknoon on the ogn stream? omg.. <3
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On September 29 2013 03:48 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 03:42 Slusher wrote:
also trinity force isn't nearly as broken as people want you to belive, it's good, and could use a price hike, but it's not even in the ballpark of the first version of Botrk with daggers in the recipe or pre season BC The main issue is changing something so drastically before worlds. Like really, would we talk about TF now, if they hadn'T done anything? "Maaaan, this match would've been so different, if they changed Trinity somehow.... don't ask me why I say this, TF has been barely used throughout the whole season ,but I just feel it!"
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point, in the case of the patch worlds is being played on yes, I agree, it should have been a patch that was at least completed before any regional let alone perhaps time for them to practice for said regional.
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EPT
