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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time
the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm
there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails.
if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:08 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:01 caelym wrote:On July 20 2013 11:00 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 10:59 caelym wrote:On July 20 2013 10:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
i left after ves was up like 10k come back 30 minutes later game is still going
and this is why ves is last place - even when they win they look bad
this was more zz-inducing than eu games where teams sit on 30k leads and do nothing for 30 minutes what you get off your damn high horse and just bask in the glory of what is effectively Team Liquid getting a perfect week? i dont associate ves with team liquid I dont care if you dont. shut your mouth and stop being condescending. please don't condescend to me On July 20 2013 11:01 Badboyrune wrote:
I feel like people should stop calling blue ez an ad carry. Its almost like calling any malphite or cho who picks up an abyssal an ap carry.
In my mind blue ez does quite little of what an ad carry does. Sure he does auto attack but he's more of an ad caster if anything. they call him ad carry cause he basically builds and plays the same way when he's picked for bot They shouldn't call him an ad carry when he's bot either, assuming he goes for standard blue build.
That's why riot is introducing awesome new terminology to differentiate between role and position!!
but for now calling him adc is pretty straightforward.
what would you call him if not MARKSMAN MID?
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On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps
I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark.
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WTF ECCO NOT MVP WHAT IS THAT DOLPHIN RACISM
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You have to believe in the marksmen to go double AD
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark.
i mean thats generally accurate, because vs most standard comps there's gonna be a huge power spike when laning phase "officially ends" and people group up - standard comps have decent midgame brawling potential, whereas double ad might be lackluster when they have most of, or at most only 1 major item and no multiplicative scaling kicking in
however, i think there's a way to maximize double ad potential in fast pushing comps. just group early and abuse range advantage and force EVEN EARLIER TOWERS than we see right now, even vs defenders
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VES vs. C9 is gonna take a lot of bans next week they're gonna have a shot to win.
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As long as the other team targets vileroze, VES has a chance lol
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On July 20 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:10 wei2coolman wrote:On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark. i mean thats generally accurate, because vs most standard comps there's gonna be a huge power spike when laning phase "officially ends" and people group up - standard comps have decent midgame brawling potential, whereas double ad might be lackluster when they have most of, or at most only 1 major item and no multiplicative scaling kicking in however, i think there's a way to maximize double ad potential in fast pushing comps. just group early and abuse range advantage and force EVEN EARLIER TOWERS than we see right now, even vs defenders
Yeah, you almost have to run that Cait/lulu, or cait/janna, type of lane, and try to grab that 3 min turret, and have jungler with the Ez grab a 4-5 min turret.
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On July 20 2013 11:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:08 Badboyrune wrote:On July 20 2013 11:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:01 caelym wrote:On July 20 2013 11:00 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 10:59 caelym wrote:On July 20 2013 10:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
i left after ves was up like 10k come back 30 minutes later game is still going
and this is why ves is last place - even when they win they look bad
this was more zz-inducing than eu games where teams sit on 30k leads and do nothing for 30 minutes what you get off your damn high horse and just bask in the glory of what is effectively Team Liquid getting a perfect week? i dont associate ves with team liquid I dont care if you dont. shut your mouth and stop being condescending. please don't condescend to me On July 20 2013 11:01 Badboyrune wrote:
I feel like people should stop calling blue ez an ad carry. Its almost like calling any malphite or cho who picks up an abyssal an ap carry.
In my mind blue ez does quite little of what an ad carry does. Sure he does auto attack but he's more of an ad caster if anything. they call him ad carry cause he basically builds and plays the same way when he's picked for bot They shouldn't call him an ad carry when he's bot either, assuming he goes for standard blue build. That's why riot is introducing awesome new terminology to differentiate between role and position!! but for now calling him adc is pretty straightforward. what would you call him if not MARKSMAN MID?
Marksmage sounds fine! Or ad poke caster bruiser. Either is fine by me.
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On July 20 2013 11:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark.
Honestly I don't feel very good about the double AD comp's ultralate game. With peel being spread out and a lot of burst to deal with, it's so easy to just make an AD a nonfactor in a late game teamfight when the peeling is split so much. If an AP or assassin gets their combo off but dies in the first 5 seconds of a fight, they influence the fight a LOT more than an AD getting burst down in the first 5 seconds.
Also, thornmails hurt. A lot.
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On July 20 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
however, i think there's a way to maximize double ad potential in fast pushing comps. just group early and abuse range advantage and force EVEN EARLIER TOWERS than we see right now, even vs defenders
Jungle Elise with a ranged support too pushed incredibly fast.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:15 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:10 wei2coolman wrote:On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark. Honestly I don't feel very good about the double AD comp's ultralate game. With peel being spread out and a lot of burst to deal with, it's so easy to just make an AD a nonfactor in a late game teamfight when the peeling is split so much. If an AP or assassin gets their combo off but dies in the first 5 seconds of a fight, they influence the fight a LOT more than an AD getting burst down in the first 5 seconds. Also, thornmails hurt. A lot.
if you do the math thornmail's effect is actually almost negligible late game, mainly because you're not buildling magic pen, adcs have life steal, and you're dropping 2k gold for 100 armor and zero hp, when you already probably have 1-2 big armor and a handful of smaller ones (randuins, sunfire, locket, tabi, locket, aegis) so the diminishing returns kicks in
also whisper + bc
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Double AD is terrible at skirmishes and most games are decided by early game skirmishes. You also get screwed by malphite. It's a cheesy strat like VES's old jungle ezreal. Just because Korea's godlike execution did it well, doesn't mean it's an overall consistent strategy.
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On July 20 2013 11:17 Lysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
however, i think there's a way to maximize double ad potential in fast pushing comps. just group early and abuse range advantage and force EVEN EARLIER TOWERS than we see right now, even vs defenders Jungle Elise with a ranged support too pushed incredibly fast.
I like Nasus better for this, but Elise works alright. It's hard to get autoattack time on the turret against defenders, though. Nasus shoves super hard and even 1 hit on the tower with a level 1 Q does pretty significant damage.
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I know we laugh at "marksman," but Riot did manage to make us say "champions" instead of "heroes" by the end of beta -- might as well resign ourselves to the brave new words
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Baa?21248 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:19 caelym wrote:
Double AD is terrible at skirmishes and most games are decided by early game skirmishes. You also get screwed by malphite. It's a cheesy strat like VES's old jungle ezreal. Just because Korea's godlike execution did it well, doesn't mean it's an overall consistent strategy.
watch njsw vs cj blaze
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On July 20 2013 11:19 caelym wrote:
Double AD is terrible at skirmishes and most games are decided by early game skirmishes. You also get screwed by malphite. It's a cheesy strat like VES's old jungle ezreal.
Ezreal's pretty dang good at skirmishing though. I think you kinda want to force a situation where the AD who isn't ezreal gets the empty lane farm in the earlier parts of post-laning. At least that's what I've seen the korean teams do with Vayne when they run this. Helps that Vayne's around BORK timing, she's super hard to 1v1.
Also seen it with Ezreal Varus when Fnatic ran it, and Varus went BT-LW-IE Q>E>W. He didn't have to be anywhere NEAR the fight in order to do serious damage with that build.
What Csheep said, NJv CJ.
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On July 20 2013 11:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 11:15 sylverfyre wrote:On July 20 2013 11:10 wei2coolman wrote:On July 20 2013 11:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 20 2013 11:07 Flakes wrote:
Looks like no one will ever run double AD vs VES again
Oh who am I kidding, CLG will probably try 3 carries next time the double ad comp is fine, clg just drafted horribly (lol tf top vs elise) and vulcun got outplayed in skirmishes because they chose to engage early when double ad just needs space to farm there's nothing inherently wrong with double ad, it just looks really bad when it fails. if you want ogn examples lg-im fed horribly with ez mid while cj blaze won a very convincing game with ez mid vs very similar enemy comps I feel double AD; you have to win in the early game. or drag it out til 50min mark. Honestly I don't feel very good about the double AD comp's ultralate game. With peel being spread out and a lot of burst to deal with, it's so easy to just make an AD a nonfactor in a late game teamfight when the peeling is split so much. If an AP or assassin gets their combo off but dies in the first 5 seconds of a fight, they influence the fight a LOT more than an AD getting burst down in the first 5 seconds. Also, thornmails hurt. A lot. if you do the math thornmail's effect is actually almost negligible late game, mainly because you're not buildling magic pen, adcs have life steal, and you're dropping 2k gold for 100 armor and zero hp, when you already probably have 1-2 big armor and a handful of smaller ones (randuins, sunfire, locket, tabi, locket, aegis) so the diminishing returns kicks in also whisper + bc
Haven't seen a bunch of teamcomps try to sneak a BC or armor-shredding champs in with those double AD comps, but that's probably an oversight. That, or they value peel more than armour-shred (and having a big frontline so the non-AD rush defensive itemisation and skip BC until potentially 5-6th item) so they choose their remaining picks around that.
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On July 20 2013 11:19 caelym wrote:
Double AD is terrible at skirmishes and most games are decided by early game skirmishes. You also get screwed by malphite. It's a cheesy strat like VES's old jungle ezreal. Just because Korea's godlike execution did it well, doesn't mean it's an overall consistent strategy.
I think teams are getting around the Malphite hard counter by last picking the second AD. If they do the drafting right they can have to option of doing a more standard comp.
I do wonder though if Jayce was nerfed so hard that mid Ez is a better choice now. Jayce still seems good to me.
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EPT
