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On March 20 2013 08:02 AsnSensation wrote:
now I just think it's ridiculous how you just straight up claim that ad carries from lower tier NA teams, even SoloQ are better than guys like Cpt Jack or Woong who have played in plenty of LAN events and actually won shit. Hate Woong all you want, but if he was actually dead weight for Frost than they wouldn't have reached those 3 ogn finals and s2 finals.
I never said he was dead weight. I'm saying their teamwork carries them much harder than "individual talent". I'm saying you guys weight individual talent wayyyyy heavier than teamwork strength. Getting players of individual talent level is ez mode, can do that in almost any region; now try to get um to work as a team, and it's not inconceivable for them to reach kr level.
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If you think about the best player in NA, it's likely Doublelift. People have to realize how he developed as a player. CLG saw the potential and recruited him and developed him under a very talented player (Chauster). This is ultimately what NA teams (and EU tbh) needs. To be able to swallow pride and admit that there's going to be some players out there are that are better than your brand name players and develop them to their potential. We see this situation develop and play out in Dignitas' Kiwikid situation where he's able to compete with the likes of Voyboy who's long lauded the NA's best top. (I think he's a bit overrated in this regard as his style is unique but very useful for certain team comps). Someone like WeiXiao or Flame would almost never break into the NA scene because once again, ego trips a plenty. Can you picture HotshotGG ever thinking "Oh wow this guy I just played a ranked game against top lane is really frigging good compared to me, I should bring him over"?
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That asian teams have better team work tha NA teams is pretty obvious, that's right, I still don't see how you are able to make assessments of individual player skill then...
I probably overreacted, but I think it's unfair to korean ad's who have won international events to be called worse than ads who play in teams that struggle in the bottom 4 of LCS or even SoloQ.
Won't discuss this any further, imo you're just NA fanboying too hard or.
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On March 20 2013 08:16 AsnSensation wrote:
That asian teams have better team work tha NA teams is pretty obvious, that's right, I still don't see how you are able to make assessments of individual player skill then...
I probably overreacted, but I think it's unfair to korean ad's who have won international events to be called worse than ads who play in teams that struggle in the bottom 4 of LCS or even SoloQ.
Won't discuss this any further, imo you're just NA fanboying too hard or.
It's not a hard concept...
Just different opinions on region based plays.
You're arguing.
Individual skills of Korea > individual skills of NA; and that's compounded with their ability to strategize, and work as a team, and better practice infrastructure; and that's why we see "stomps".
I'd argue, the only major difference is NA individual talents are spread apart, or not recognized as heavily; and difference is that korea teams works a lot harder as a "group", and the huge level of play difference comes from team work, not because korean individual talent is significantly higher.
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On March 20 2013 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 08:02 AsnSensation wrote:
now I just think it's ridiculous how you just straight up claim that ad carries from lower tier NA teams, even SoloQ are better than guys like Cpt Jack or Woong who have played in plenty of LAN events and actually won shit. Hate Woong all you want, but if he was actually dead weight for Frost than they wouldn't have reached those 3 ogn finals and s2 finals. I never said he was dead weight. I'm saying their teamwork carries them much harder than "individual talent". I'm saying you guys weight individual talent wayyyyy heavier than teamwork strength. Getting players of individual talent level is ez mode, can do that in almost any region; now try to get um to work as a team, and it's not inconceivable for them to reach kr level.
Your assessment of individual skills aside, perhaps it would be wise to actually study a scene before making such sweeping assumptions. You've seen two players who you believe to be equal in individual skill to the top AD carries in your region, but I get the feeling you only know them because they are on teams with international exposure. What are your thoughts on Korean AD carry Imp? Have you seen any of his performances in the Korean league, or SWL? I personally thought his individual performance as an AD carry against Bebe was pretty excellent. Exactly in what regard does he lack individually compared to the amateur solo que AD carries of North America?
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On March 20 2013 04:14 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 01:38 Azarkon wrote:On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:
If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays. As TheYango said, TPA is a veteran team hailing from the very early days of LoL, and its success occurred at the time the transition between amateur and professional was happening in Korea. TPA's one off and rather unique success in the Taiwanese scene is similar to Gambit in that regard. These days, they are starting to fall off vis-a-vis Korean teams. Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals. TPA mainly practiced against Chinese and SEA teams AFAIK.
Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it.
Indeed, Riot is pouring money into the scene, but the eSports infrastructure of the NA is not and was never professional. LoL is the first game in which there is this kind of support from a sponsor, and this sponsorship is not only unique but highly contingent on Riot's whim and will, for it has very little support from other organizations such as corporations and media. Korea, by contrast, has 10+ years of BW development under Kespa, during which there was both corporate sponsorship and media support. Korean BW, SC 2, and LoL is broadcast on TV. Korean coaches, managers, talent scouters, etc. all have tremendous experience in this area, which Korean culture and laws are conducive towards. While this experience was in Starcraft, ultimately a great deal of it does transfer over. This is why, for example, you hear of Korean coaches being coaches while NA 'coaches' are only managers.
I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out.
There are indeed a lot of teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, but in the end, who is going to succeed? I agree that the 'magic eSports formula' is not a Korean specific formula; but at the same time I argue that it does not exist in NA.
How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams?
There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will.
Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
There is an explanation for everything, and while the lack of ambition and dedication among NA players is not an invalid explanation, it ought to be one of the last explanations. Otherwise, we have to explain why NA players lack ambition and dedication, and that is difficult to do given that NA people excel in plenty of other fields, including physical sports in which, for example, we boast the best Olympics team in the world. NA has people with talent, ambition, and rigorous work ethics. Of course, all of this is in a way moot because it is not known yet whether NA is going to succeed. Riot's efforts at infrastructure building has occurred only recently and such efforts take time before they pay off. What I am saying, however, is that the previous results registered by NA players and teams in both LoL and other eSports are products of infrastructural weakness and lack of legal / cultural support. Thus the SC / SC 2 analogies. 1) That doesn't really provide much explanation here. Korean teams from the early days were composed of high-ELO stars from the NA server too - MiG Frost, Najin Shield and Team OP. Some faltered. Others kept up their pace in an ever expanding scene. The members of Taipei Assassins had pretty much the same level of experience in LoL as the members of Azubu Frost except for Shy. North Americans had much greater numbers of high-ELO players in comparison to the Koreans or Taiwanese people. They simply didn't keep their intensity in trying to be the best. Perhaps Taipei Assassins are the exception to the rule. Then again, if they can do it, what stops the other teams from doing the same? 2) I was trying to prove a point that Taipei Assassins went out of their way to practice against teams from other regions, and reaped the benefits. Why did they scrim against Korean teams and participate in online tournaments against Korean teams when practice against Chinese and SEA teams was much easily done? I mean, TPA had their strategies against Azubu Frost down to the wire. They had CloudTemplar's jungle routes right down to the wire and completely zoned him out of the game, so much so that he has nightmares about the games to this day. They banned out what they felt was Madlife's most threatening picks. This kind of stuff never would have happened if they didn't do their research. I'd imagine preparations of similar magnitude were done in order to prevail against the heavily favoured Moscow 5. The level of preparation TPA showed in that tournament could have been done by ANY team, but it happened to be TPA and guess what? They won. 3) You highly overestimate the level of the Korean LoL e-Sports scene. It's not even close to the heights that was reached in Brood Wars. The systematic factory-like production skilled amateurs being honed into well oiled machines at professional levels is not being done here. It's a work in progress, like it is for a lot of regions. Of course the e-Sports experience does seep in, but not to the level you state in my personal opinion. It's one thing to fight for a lost cause, but when you have clearly seen others succeed against the odds, you don't just throw your hands in the air just because the conditions aren't as optimal as you'd like it to be. The media exposure doesn't come free. The coorporate sponsorship and prestige as a legitimate competition doesn't just fall out of your ass. It's what the Korean progamers, their fans, the passionate guys in the production who believed in this thing, made through years of blood, sweat and tears. It's a cultural phenomonon that was created during my generation, and is constantly threatened by the elder establishment who simply wish this away. You think it's all roses here in Korea? There are law restrictions specifically designed to combat gaming in young people, the "gaming-addiction" seen as a pest to the society, there willl never be news coverage over the e-Sports scene on national television no matter how big the viewership is amongst the young people (unless it's covered in a negative light). It's the passion and dedication of everybody involved that's keeping this thing alive. Korean professionals benefiting from the infrastructure? They ARE the infrastructure. The level of "infrastructure" that was reached in Brood Wars was only possible because of the highly talented and insanely dedicated individuals building a legacy that came into fruition years later. Only to be torn down... but lets not get started on that issue, it makes me way too sad. 3) North American players lack the dedication shown by the very best performing players from other regions. This is an inrefutable fact. They may have things worse for them in some cases, but there are others who have prevailed through worse. The very fact that you provide excuses just because North Americans did not have the very best support available makes me wonder how much you feel success has to bestowed upon these team you are defending. North America had the largest pool of high level players for the longest time. But so many players were just content with streaming whilst trolling on the ladder. Sure they stomped faces when competitions came around, but they were never dedicated to the game that other pioneers of progaming such as Boxer were. When competition became more stiff, they simply fell down the ladder, just like other teams who were not focused on being the best. The teams that stayed at the top were the ones that tried hard. North America right now could have been the leading scene in LoL. They still can be. But for heaven's sake stop pretending everything has to be handed down to them on a silver platter. The past failures were not products of infrastructual weakness. If they keep being mediocre, sure, in a few months the infrastructural differences will add up to be far too great. It's up to them to not let it get to that point. It's an uphill battle, sure, but seriously, just giving up will make the North American look so pathetic.
You are ignoring what I said and simply harping on the passion of Korean eSports professionals. While I do not begrudge their passion, I want to ask you this - why is it that in Korea, large corporations such as Samsung, SKT, Korean Air, and Shinhan Bank provide funding and support for eSports, while in NA you never see Apple, Microsoft, Boeing, Bank of America, etc. support eSports? Why did Intel sponsor the ESL in Europe instead of America? Why is it that Korean eSports professionals were able to get their cable TV networks to host Starcraft, but equally passionate individuals such as Artosis and Day9 were never able to do the same for NA? Why is it that IGN, one of the biggest organizations to enter NA eSports, shut down its eSports wing after just two years in the biz?
It is this ignorance of cultural and industrial differences that make arguments about dedication and passion worthless. You accuse NA eSports professionals for being the cause for their poor position. In a way, you are correct - they have failed to develop the eSports infrastructure to compete with Korea. But is this because NA players lack dedication / passion? I don't think so. I think the better explanation is in the business side of things. NA eSports professionals have failed to productize eSports. They have failed to sell their craft as a legitimate career. It is a poor state of things when the maker of the game has to step in to support NA eSports because without them, NA teams wouldn't even be able to get a salary.
But there are also factors that have nothing to do with business. South Korea's Ministry of Culture officially legitimized eSports and called attention to it in Korea via the formation of KeSPA in 2000 - around the time of the first OSL. KeSPA, with the mandate given to it by its corporate sponsors and the South Korean government, which is its 'parent company,' has acted concertedly to expand the market base for eSports in Korea and, later, around the world. It is therefore fair to say that, for your generation, the expansion of eSports in Korea was a strategic, country wide cultural initiative. While you cite South Korea's recent policy against gaming addiction as a counter argument, it is imperative to understand that this policy was carefully designed to not harm competitive career gamers, and that it has been government and public policy in South Korea to promote digital gaming - including competitive gaming - see, for example, T. L. Taylor's 2012 book on eSports. For a technologically oriented, export based economy such as South Korea with operates on 'soft power,' this is completely logical.
NA eSports has no equivalent governing body, and certainly no government supported initiative propelling it forward. There is practically no recognition of NA eSports at a mass media level, and the organizations behind NA eSports cannibalize each other for the sake of short sighted leverage in a small, low visibility scene. The way EG operates is a perfect example of how NA eSports organizations function, favoring personality over results, because that is also what the bulk of NA fans enjoy - entertainment above success. For EG to keep going, they have to keep recruiting players who increase their visibility, whatever the results those players have.
The bottom line I'm trying to reach here is that it is naive to think that infrastructure does not matter and that NA players 'have it easy' when it comes to being competitive. Correct, competitive infrastructure is built by eSports professionals, and the failure to build it is their fault. But at the same time, the cultural and commercial incentives are completely different between NA and Korea, and indeed between NA, Europe, and Asia. Fans of eSports in the West ultimately look towards Europe for the challengers who's going to take on Asia, because in Europe the infrastructure for eSports is a lot better and is targeted towards successful competitors, rather than just successful personalities.
When you casually dismiss the infrastructural, cultural, and economic differences between NA eSports and Korean eSports, and only look at the results, you are not seeing the bigger picture. You are not seeing the underlying forces that propel causation and which ultimately explain regional differences in win rates and tournament success. It is easy to say that NA players are a bunch of jokers because, indeed, that's what you see. But ask yourself this - why are they jokers? Is it just a matter of individual responsibility? Because in that case, it is amazing to me that, in the popular imagination, the NA scene just happened to end up with a bunch of lazy, washed up hacks and Korea just happened to end up with a bunch of dedicated professionals.
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On March 20 2013 08:37 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:On March 20 2013 08:02 AsnSensation wrote:
now I just think it's ridiculous how you just straight up claim that ad carries from lower tier NA teams, even SoloQ are better than guys like Cpt Jack or Woong who have played in plenty of LAN events and actually won shit. Hate Woong all you want, but if he was actually dead weight for Frost than they wouldn't have reached those 3 ogn finals and s2 finals. I never said he was dead weight. I'm saying their teamwork carries them much harder than "individual talent". I'm saying you guys weight individual talent wayyyyy heavier than teamwork strength. Getting players of individual talent level is ez mode, can do that in almost any region; now try to get um to work as a team, and it's not inconceivable for them to reach kr level. Your assessment of individual skills aside, perhaps it would be wise to actually study a scene before making such sweeping assumptions. You've seen two players who you believe to be equal in individual skill to the top AD carries in your region, but I get the feeling you only know them because they are on teams with international exposure. What are your thoughts on Korean AD carry Imp? Have you seen any of his performances in the Korean league, or SWL? I personally thought his individual performance as an AD carry against Bebe was pretty excellent. Exactly in what regard does he lack individually compared to the amateur solo que AD carries of North America?
I'd say amateur solo queue AD carries in North America, are willing to actually carry. They're willing to take risks. There's a common thing in Tennis that's often brought up; that riskier players have a better chance of advancing further than consistent players; assuming their level of play on average is similar. It's the same thing essentially. NA Adc's are far more willing to take risks, and play the "carry" position. They play with their entire team on their back. Just look at early day Fear when Aphro was still there. Yes. Fear was worse with Aphromoo as their focused carry, because they relied on him far too heavily, but as individual skill rank quite high up there. Also, if you listened to some of DL banter earlier today with ST.V, about why her prefers Link over Jiji, is because he prefers that Link is willing to put up the pressure as a "carry", and is willing to play risky. The reason I say Korean ADC's are behind NA ADC's is because they have the luxury of not having to carry that pressure, because they have amazing toplaners/midlaners that take a lot of pressure off of them. The opposite applies to Korean toplaners, their toplaners are so good for the same reason why NA adc's are good (but to a far larger extent).
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On March 20 2013 08:39 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 04:14 Letmelose wrote:On March 20 2013 01:38 Azarkon wrote:On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:
If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays. As TheYango said, TPA is a veteran team hailing from the very early days of LoL, and its success occurred at the time the transition between amateur and professional was happening in Korea. TPA's one off and rather unique success in the Taiwanese scene is similar to Gambit in that regard. These days, they are starting to fall off vis-a-vis Korean teams. Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals. TPA mainly practiced against Chinese and SEA teams AFAIK.
Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it.
Indeed, Riot is pouring money into the scene, but the eSports infrastructure of the NA is not and was never professional. LoL is the first game in which there is this kind of support from a sponsor, and this sponsorship is not only unique but highly contingent on Riot's whim and will, for it has very little support from other organizations such as corporations and media. Korea, by contrast, has 10+ years of BW development under Kespa, during which there was both corporate sponsorship and media support. Korean BW, SC 2, and LoL is broadcast on TV. Korean coaches, managers, talent scouters, etc. all have tremendous experience in this area, which Korean culture and laws are conducive towards. While this experience was in Starcraft, ultimately a great deal of it does transfer over. This is why, for example, you hear of Korean coaches being coaches while NA 'coaches' are only managers.
I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out.
There are indeed a lot of teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, but in the end, who is going to succeed? I agree that the 'magic eSports formula' is not a Korean specific formula; but at the same time I argue that it does not exist in NA.
How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams?
There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will.
Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
There is an explanation for everything, and while the lack of ambition and dedication among NA players is not an invalid explanation, it ought to be one of the last explanations. Otherwise, we have to explain why NA players lack ambition and dedication, and that is difficult to do given that NA people excel in plenty of other fields, including physical sports in which, for example, we boast the best Olympics team in the world. NA has people with talent, ambition, and rigorous work ethics. Of course, all of this is in a way moot because it is not known yet whether NA is going to succeed. Riot's efforts at infrastructure building has occurred only recently and such efforts take time before they pay off. What I am saying, however, is that the previous results registered by NA players and teams in both LoL and other eSports are products of infrastructural weakness and lack of legal / cultural support. Thus the SC / SC 2 analogies. 1) That doesn't really provide much explanation here. Korean teams from the early days were composed of high-ELO stars from the NA server too - MiG Frost, Najin Shield and Team OP. Some faltered. Others kept up their pace in an ever expanding scene. The members of Taipei Assassins had pretty much the same level of experience in LoL as the members of Azubu Frost except for Shy. North Americans had much greater numbers of high-ELO players in comparison to the Koreans or Taiwanese people. They simply didn't keep their intensity in trying to be the best. Perhaps Taipei Assassins are the exception to the rule. Then again, if they can do it, what stops the other teams from doing the same? 2) I was trying to prove a point that Taipei Assassins went out of their way to practice against teams from other regions, and reaped the benefits. Why did they scrim against Korean teams and participate in online tournaments against Korean teams when practice against Chinese and SEA teams was much easily done? I mean, TPA had their strategies against Azubu Frost down to the wire. They had CloudTemplar's jungle routes right down to the wire and completely zoned him out of the game, so much so that he has nightmares about the games to this day. They banned out what they felt was Madlife's most threatening picks. This kind of stuff never would have happened if they didn't do their research. I'd imagine preparations of similar magnitude were done in order to prevail against the heavily favoured Moscow 5. The level of preparation TPA showed in that tournament could have been done by ANY team, but it happened to be TPA and guess what? They won. 3) You highly overestimate the level of the Korean LoL e-Sports scene. It's not even close to the heights that was reached in Brood Wars. The systematic factory-like production skilled amateurs being honed into well oiled machines at professional levels is not being done here. It's a work in progress, like it is for a lot of regions. Of course the e-Sports experience does seep in, but not to the level you state in my personal opinion. It's one thing to fight for a lost cause, but when you have clearly seen others succeed against the odds, you don't just throw your hands in the air just because the conditions aren't as optimal as you'd like it to be. The media exposure doesn't come free. The coorporate sponsorship and prestige as a legitimate competition doesn't just fall out of your ass. It's what the Korean progamers, their fans, the passionate guys in the production who believed in this thing, made through years of blood, sweat and tears. It's a cultural phenomonon that was created during my generation, and is constantly threatened by the elder establishment who simply wish this away. You think it's all roses here in Korea? There are law restrictions specifically designed to combat gaming in young people, the "gaming-addiction" seen as a pest to the society, there willl never be news coverage over the e-Sports scene on national television no matter how big the viewership is amongst the young people (unless it's covered in a negative light). It's the passion and dedication of everybody involved that's keeping this thing alive. Korean professionals benefiting from the infrastructure? They ARE the infrastructure. The level of "infrastructure" that was reached in Brood Wars was only possible because of the highly talented and insanely dedicated individuals building a legacy that came into fruition years later. Only to be torn down... but lets not get started on that issue, it makes me way too sad. 3) North American players lack the dedication shown by the very best performing players from other regions. This is an inrefutable fact. They may have things worse for them in some cases, but there are others who have prevailed through worse. The very fact that you provide excuses just because North Americans did not have the very best support available makes me wonder how much you feel success has to bestowed upon these team you are defending. North America had the largest pool of high level players for the longest time. But so many players were just content with streaming whilst trolling on the ladder. Sure they stomped faces when competitions came around, but they were never dedicated to the game that other pioneers of progaming such as Boxer were. When competition became more stiff, they simply fell down the ladder, just like other teams who were not focused on being the best. The teams that stayed at the top were the ones that tried hard. North America right now could have been the leading scene in LoL. They still can be. But for heaven's sake stop pretending everything has to be handed down to them on a silver platter. The past failures were not products of infrastructual weakness. If they keep being mediocre, sure, in a few months the infrastructural differences will add up to be far too great. It's up to them to not let it get to that point. It's an uphill battle, sure, but seriously, just giving up will make the North American look so pathetic. You are ignoring what I said and simply harping on the passion of Korean eSports professionals. While I do not begrudge their passion, I want to ask you this - why is it that in Korea, large corporations such as Samsung, SKT, Korean Air, and Shinhan Bank provide funding and support for eSports, while in NA you never see Apple, Microsoft, Boeing, Bank of America, etc. support eSports? Why did Intel sponsor the ESL in Europe instead of America? Why is it that Korean eSports professionals were able to get their cable TV networks to host Starcraft, but equally passionate individuals such as Artosis and Day9 were never able to do the same for NA? Why is it that IGN, one of the biggest organizations to enter NA eSports, shut down its eSports wing after just two years in the biz? It is this ignorance of cultural and industrial differences that make arguments about dedication and passion worthless. You accuse NA eSports professionals for being the cause for their poor position. In a way, you are correct - they have failed to develop the eSports infrastructure to compete with Korea. But is this because NA players lack dedication / passion? I don't think so. I think the better explanation is in the business side of things. NA eSports professionals have failed to productize eSports. They have failed to sell their craft as a legitimate career. It is a poor state of things when the maker of the game has to step in to support NA eSports because without them, NA teams wouldn't even be able to get a salary. But there are also factors that have nothing to do with business. South Korea's Ministry of Culture officially legitimized eSports and called attention to it in Korea via the formation of KeSPA in 2000 - around the time of the first OSL. KeSPA, with the mandate given to it by its corporate sponsors and the South Korean government, which is its 'parent company,' has acted concertedly to expand the market base for eSports in Korea and, later, around the world. It is therefore fair to say that, for your generation, the expansion of eSports in Korea was a strategic, country wide cultural initiative. While you cite South Korea's recent policy against gaming addiction as a counter argument, it is imperative to understand that this policy was carefully designed to not harm competitive career gamers, and that it has been government and public policy in South Korea to promote digital gaming - including competitive gaming - see, for example, T. L. Taylor's 2012 book on eSports. For a technologically oriented, export based economy such as South Korea with operates on 'soft power,' this is completely logical. NA eSports has no equivalent governing body, and certainly no government supported initiative propelling it forward. There is practically no recognition of NA eSports at a mass media level, and the organizations behind NA eSports cannibalize each other for the sake of short sighted leverage in a small, low visibility scene. The way EG operates is a perfect example of how NA eSports organizations function, favoring personality over results, because that is also what the bulk of NA fans enjoy - entertainment above success. For EG to keep going, they have to keep recruiting players who increase their visibility, whatever the results those players have. The bottom line I'm trying to reach here is that it is naive to think that infrastructure does not matter and that NA players 'have it easy' when it comes to being competitive. Correct, competitive infrastructure is built by eSports professionals, and the failure to build it is their fault. But at the same time, the cultural and commercial incentives are completely different between NA and Korea, and indeed between NA, Europe, and Asia. Fans of eSports in the West ultimately look towards Europe for the challengers who's going to take on Asia, because in Europe the infrastructure for eSports is a lot better and is targeted towards successful competitors, rather than just successful personalities. When you casually dismiss the infrastructural, cultural, and economic differences between NA eSports and Korean eSports, and only look at the results, you are not seeing the bigger picture. You are not seeing the underlying forces that propel causation and which ultimately explain regional differences in win rates and tournament success. It is easy to say that NA players are a bunch of jokers because, indeed, that's what you see. But ask yourself this - why are they jokers? Is it just a matter of individual responsibility? Because in that case, it is amazing to me that, in the popular imagination, the NA scene just happened to end up with a bunch of lazy, washed up hacks and Korea just happened to end up with a bunch of dedicated professionals.
We're going in circles. For the sake of argument, let's suppose the following are absolutely true.
1) North American teams are at an disadvantage in terms of infrastructure compared to Korea and this was the single biggest reason for their lack of success up to now.
2) Taipei Assassins, who did not have the similar degrees of infrastructure available in Korea, cannot be set as an example of how a team with limited infrastructure can rise to the top of world since they are an exception.
3) Until there is sufficient television exposure, corporate sponsorship and a culture that embraces professional gaming, results alone cannot be tracked back to a lack of drive or dedication.
But just a couple of points,
A) What did you think about the scene before the formation of KeSPA, and the introduction of corporate sponsorship in Korea? Before salaries were given. Just your mouse, your skills and your dreams. Sometimes one of these tournaments would get televised on some small cable TV channel, but they had no fixed schedule like in Korea today or with the LCS in NA. Were they as hopelessly lost? I think not.
Of course the circumstances in Korea back then, and North America now are vastly different in all kind of ways. I simply believe that corporate sponsorship and a systemized governing body isn't what makes the difference here. It has to be special. What Korea had back then was magical, and after a couple of years, corporate sponsorship came along, as well as a governining body that tried to control the entire scene (and the money that comes off it, naturally). You have to keep trying, then all the rest will follow. You don't stand there waiting for the media and the entire nation to embrace you first, then start trying.
B) Artosis and Day[9] are amzing personalities. Perhaps you should build on that, as a community, as players, as people with social links in various fields. Maybe it will take longer in North America, perhaps you need a player that captures the hearts of the nation like Boxer did. I don't know. Keep trying, don't lament the lack of interest from Apple. Who cares about Apple? I'd rather see a moment of magic than some big gay fruit sign over some guys shirt. This is more than trying to sneak a deal. If it was about that Boxer would have cashed in years ago.
C) I'm talking about actual effort into researching other teams, getting the best practice possible, trying insanely hard to improve your horizons, taking things to the limit. I can just tell from the interviews that Alex Ich knows more about the Korean teams than, say, Dyrus of Team Solo Mid for example. I see it from their picks and bans. Surely one thing that doesn't rely on infrastructure is the ability to obtain VODs of your opponents, and analyze the hell out of it? Or am I not allowed to mention members of Gambit Gaming since they are yet another exception to the rule?
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United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2013 07:43 wei2coolman wrote:
Pray and Score are probably the 2 in Kr, I'd say are on par with top NA ADC's. Loco weak, capt jack weak, woong all weak, they're all carried by their supports; On average, Kr adc's are around where EU adc's are at. Mechanically better than NA counterparts; maybe. But, are they better ADC's? hardly. qtpie, cop, dl, nien, even the lower tier solo queue adc stars in NA are better than a lot of their international counterparts (With exception of China).
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RJS' fundamentals off pure game understanding from playing top make him a better AD than virtually every NA AD other than maybe Doublelift.
The fact that you're even distinguishing something like "Pray and Score are good, but Woong sucks" belies your total ignorance about the KR scene to begin with. Maknoon even said that top 3 ADs for KR are Woong/Score/Pray fairly close.
EDIT: You're also selling Chinese ADs a bit too hard. They're not actually THAT far ahead of Korean AD play other than the two big outliers. If I were to rank ADs between the two, I'd say something like Weixiao>Bebe/Uzi>Woong>Score/Pray/Devil>Kid/Jack.
If you're taking Doublelift's admission that Devil is better than him to be meaningful, then that places the all of LCS-level NA ADs (who are worse than DLift) below the Korean ADs that you said "suck".
On March 20 2013 07:43 wei2coolman wrote:
NA mids are slightly behind Kr mids, but only slightly. There are a lot of impressive NA mids that I'd argue could go toe to toe with a lot of the Kr mids.
No?
NA mids are arguably even more behind Korea than top lane. I'd argue that the only NA mid laner that has anywhere meaningful to go is Nyjacky whereas top lane NA has at least a couple players with real potential.
On March 20 2013 07:43 wei2coolman wrote:
You telling me, you couldn't create like 3-4 teams of existing NA talent, that could arguably have same level of individual "talent" as korean teams, right now? Pool of player talent in their individual roles are all distributed somewhat among regions, with certain regions having better players in certain roles.
Essentially, what i'm saying individual talent roles, exist in all regions in around same level; it's a matter of whether or not you can aggregate them into a functioning team.
And I'm arguing that the talent pool in NA is far lower.
It's been cited multiple times that pre-30 games on Korean server are harder than Diamond-level games on NA. You're making the ridiculous statement that somehow there are magically a ton of outliers at the top end in NA, which isn't the case.
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dude koreans are so tryhard.
i dont think that the talent pool is not there in NA, but given how hard koreans play and how they seek to emulate the best even at extremely low levels (because success constitutes fun rather than fking invis teemo all over the place) the avg level of play is much higher there.
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comparing it to "diamond games" doesnt mean much, as that bracket is pretty much a cesspool anyway. I have better games on pre-30 NA server than diamond as well, just get a nice little smurf with a good winrate and you'll be surprised at how good the games are. A lot of korean/eu/etc playing for fun.
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On March 20 2013 09:50 Letmelose wrote:
A) What did you think about the scene before the formation of KeSPA, and the introduction of corporate sponsorship in Korea? Before salaries were given. Just your mouse, your skills and your dreams. Sometimes one of these tournaments would get televised on some small cable TV channel, but they had no fixed schedule like in Korea today or with the LCS in NA. Were they as hopelessly lost? I think not.
Of course the circumstances in Korea back then, and North America now are vastly different in all kind of ways. I simply believe that corporate sponsorship and a systemized governing body isn't what makes the difference here. It has to be special. What Korea had back then was magical, and after a couple of years, corporate sponsorship came along, as well as a governining body that tried to control the entire scene (and the money that comes off it, naturally). You have to keep trying, then all the rest will follow. You don't stand there waiting for the media and the entire nation to embrace you first, then start trying.
B) Artosis and Day[9] are amzing personalities. Perhaps you should build on that, as a community, as players, as people with social links in various fields. Maybe it will take longer in North America, perhaps you need a player that captures the hearts of the nation like Boxer did. I don't know. Keep trying, don't lament the lack of interest from Apple. Who cares about Apple? I'd rather see a moment of magic than some big gay fruit sign over some guys shirt. This is more than trying to sneak a deal. If it was about that Boxer would have cashed in years ago.
C) I'm talking about actual effort into researching other teams, getting the best practice possible, trying insanely hard to improve your horizons, taking things to the limit. I can just tell from the interviews that Alex Ich knows more about the Korean teams than, say, Dyrus of Team Solo Mid for example. I see it from their picks and bans. Surely one thing that doesn't rely on infrastructure is the ability to obtain VODs of your opponents, and analyze the hell out of it? Or am I not allowed to mention members of Gambit Gaming since they are yet another exception to the rule?
Thing is there is a pretty huge swell of interest in the west for esports (with LoL a long way in front of its competitors). I don't know whether it is on the "magic" levels of BW's heyday in Korea, but it's easy to forget just how popular LoL content is right now.
As of typing there are 34,000 people watching Voyboy, 8 million watched the S2 final, 6 figure weekly numbers for NA LCS. I'm not an expert on international sports, but the cumulative viewing hours of LoL in the west dwarfs the tv viewing figures of the two biggest sports in my country (Rugby League and Australian Football). These are both sports with million dollar salaries, billion (yes billion) dollar tv deals and top line corporate backing. I know we're talking international vs local reach and there are cultural factors that enhance the marketing appeal of a ball sport that LoL doesn't have, but even a cursory glance at the numbers doesn't add up to the sparse support given to these players/teams. For any real world sport these hours would add up to a significant payday. There's a discrepancy between those numbers and MRN not being able to afford a desk to practice on.
Then I turn on my cable tv and see huge amounts of niche content on any number of the 100s of channels. Premier league darts (on one of the main sport channels at a not unreasonable hour), motocross, Scandinavian foosball, competitive fishing, sailing, snooker (I could go on and on). It just baffles me that gaming content in mainstream media never goes past the most shallow analysis programming into a space where there's demonstrated interest.
In short I don't think corporates and mainstream media in the west are awake to how popular this is. Most media corporations are locally based, and it's likely difficult to obtain localized viewing figures (it's not in the interest of Twitch or Youtube to make that information public) which likely slows things down. There's probably some social stigma amongst the demographic that's running these companies as well, though that will disappear like fog on a clear morning the second they see someone making money off it. Once companies start to do the math, competition for content will increase the amount of money going into the system. It's at that point that the infrastructure and corporate support starts to develop.
You don't need magic, just money, and there's enough interest for money to be made if things are set up correctly.
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On March 20 2013 06:28 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 03:15 cLutZ wrote:On March 20 2013 01:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches. That is...the opposite of true. The thing is, the best players often know very little about how the game actually works. See: Michael Jordan trying to be a manager/owner of a basketball team. Plus, the NA teams besides Curse/Dig are basically owned by the players, which is a terrible setup. i'm talking about preparing strategies
I'm saying that being a good pro player does not have much correlation to being good at creating strategies. A certain level of skill is probably needed, but its just as likely that some 45 year old guy who is Mid Diamond would be as good in that position as HotshotGG weeks after he retires.
You think Bellichek is or was ever a good player? How bout Butch Harmon, great golfer?
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what are you talking about, i said LoL is a unique situation, and you're trying to refute me by using examples from other sports.
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LoL has a lot of subtleties that you will only see in arranged play, but you're selling other sports short if you think they somehow don't have subtleties in their arranged play.
Also, just because you weren't able to see these subtleties until you actually played arranged 5's at a high level doesn't mean no one can see those subtleties. Some people are great observers, better observers than you or I could ever be. They can watch the game and see things that it takes normal people hard experience to find out. These people are rare, but it doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Those are fair points. The reason I am arguing this point in the first place though, is that the overwhelming majority of people who think they do or are supposed to understand the game, commentators, stonewall, etc, know a lot less than people give them credit for. And of course I didn't know this until I played a lot.
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On March 20 2013 09:50 Letmelose wrote:
But just a couple of points,
A) What did you think about the scene before the formation of KeSPA, and the introduction of corporate sponsorship in Korea? Before salaries were given. Just your mouse, your skills and your dreams. Sometimes one of these tournaments would get televised on some small cable TV channel, but they had no fixed schedule like in Korea today or with the LCS in NA. Were they as hopelessly lost? I think not.
Kespa was formed very early - 2000, to be exact, while the first OSL was also in 2000. It behooves me to mention that the first OSL was won by Grrrr, a Canadian Starcraft player, so that indeed, in the time before Kespa even Korean Starcraft was in its infancy and not the unstoppable force that we have come to think of it as.
The subsequent success of Korean BW is inextricably tied with the rise of Kespa, so that to talk about Korean eSports without Kespa is next to useless. Kespa was created to guide the growth and success of Korean eSports, and to promote digital gaming as a whole, because there was a huge push at the time from the Korean Ministry of Culture towards broadband internet and digital culture. At the same time, the Asian economic crisis of 1997 drove people in South Korea towards escapist entertainment in order to relieve the stress of a sagging economy, resulting in the rapid rise of 'PC bang culture,' which has itself played a role in the rise of competitive eSports because of the peer effect - curtly described as an incentive to play better in order to impress other people in the same physical environment.
In short, the rise of Korean eSports is a combination of government, commercial, and cultural factors, as well as 'being there at the correct place at the correct time.'
You have to keep trying, then all the rest will follow. You don't stand there waiting for the media and the entire nation to embrace you first, then start trying.
The problem is that the rest haven't followed.
Ignoring the corporate sponsors and professional organizations for a moment, the American gaming culture is fundamentally casual in a way that the Korean gaming culture is not. Take TheYango's statement about Diamond level play on NA being <= below-30 level play on Korea as an example. This is the same as it was in Starcraft. People joke about Korean tryhards but that is precisely how it is - Korean gamers value playing competitively, while American gamers do not.
American gamers see games as opportunities to screw around and relax, and this shows competitive gaming's low status in the US. Tryhards are looked down upon; griefers and jokers are elevated. Where the US value success in physical sports - ie the 'jock culture' of American high schools - they devalue success in video games - ie the 'geek culture' of American high schools. Triumph in physical sports is seen as a display of masculinity and virility - ie 'chick magnet', 'leadership', 'manliness', etc - while triumph in video games is seen as geeky obsessive compulsive behavior and a loss of proper priorities.
Are things changing? I don't know. I think mainstream American culture is still fundamentally against competitive gaming, though there is increasing acceptance of casual gaming. The issues holding competitive gaming in America back is too varied to discuss here, but suffice to say it's not just a matter of American pro gamers not trying.
B) Artosis and Day[9] are amzing personalities. Perhaps you should build on that, as a community, as players, as people with social links in various fields. Maybe it will take longer in North America, perhaps you need a player that captures the hearts of the nation like Boxer did. I don't know. Keep trying, don't lament the lack of interest from Apple. Who cares about Apple? I'd rather see a moment of magic than some big gay fruit sign over some guys shirt. This is more than trying to sneak a deal. If it was about that Boxer would have cashed in years ago.
The thing is, I don't think America is ready to be captured by a video game personality the way South Korea was in the early 2000's. The cultural support for competitive gaming just isn't there. As I said, the 'jock culture' is preeminent even as casual gaming is accepted today. Being a tryhard is still looked down upon. The hope is on the next generation, but these days kids are going mobile / handheld. How about that - eSports on phones?
C) I'm talking about actual effort into researching other teams, getting the best practice possible, trying insanely hard to improve your horizons, taking things to the limit. I can just tell from the interviews that Alex Ich knows more about the Korean teams than, say, Dyrus of Team Solo Mid for example. I see it from their picks and bans. Surely one thing that doesn't rely on infrastructure is the ability to obtain VODs of your opponents, and analyze the hell out of it? Or am I not allowed to mention members of Gambit Gaming since they are yet another exception to the rule?
Gambit is an outlier but not an exception. Eastern Europe, especially the old Soviet bloc, has ever produced a great chunk of Europe's finest teams in Dota and Starcraft, so that their success in LoL is not unique in the way TPA's is. I don't know what it is about Russians and Ukrainians, but they take to competitive gaming very well, even though they do get drunk before important games from time to time.
Still, it's not the same as in Korea. I think European eSports is a goal to aspire to for American eSports, because they are better without vastly better infrastructure, even though we don't want to admit it. But beyond that, the infrastructure exists in neither Europe nor America to challenge Kespa organized eSports in Korea.
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On March 20 2013 22:23 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what are you talking about, i said LoL is a unique situation, and you're trying to refute me by using examples from other sports.
You in no way explained how LOL is unique.
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On March 21 2013 03:09 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 09:50 Letmelose wrote:
But just a couple of points,
A) What did you think about the scene before the formation of KeSPA, and the introduction of corporate sponsorship in Korea? Before salaries were given. Just your mouse, your skills and your dreams. Sometimes one of these tournaments would get televised on some small cable TV channel, but they had no fixed schedule like in Korea today or with the LCS in NA. Were they as hopelessly lost? I think not. Kespa was formed very early - 2000, to be exact, while the first OSL was also in 2000. It behooves me to mention that the first OSL was won by Grrrr, a Canadian Starcraft player, so that indeed, in the time before Kespa even Korean Starcraft was in its infancy and not the unstoppable force that we have come to think of it as. The subsequent success of Korean BW is inextricably tied with the rise of Kespa, so that to talk about Korean eSports without Kespa is next to useless. Kespa was created to guide the growth and success of Korean eSports, and to promote digital gaming as a whole, because there was a huge push at the time from the Korean Ministry of Culture towards broadband internet and digital culture. At the same time, the Asian economic crisis of 1997 drove people in South Korea towards escapist entertainment in order to relieve the stress of a sagging economy, resulting in the rapid rise of 'PC bang culture,' which has itself played a role in the rise of competitive eSports because of the peer effect - curtly described as an incentive to play better in order to impress other people in the same physical environment. In short, the rise of Korean eSports is a combination of government, commercial, and cultural factors, as well as 'being there at the correct place at the correct time.' Show nested quote +You have to keep trying, then all the rest will follow. You don't stand there waiting for the media and the entire nation to embrace you first, then start trying. The problem is that the rest haven't followed. Ignoring the corporate sponsors and professional organizations for a moment, the American gaming culture is fundamentally casual in a way that the Korean gaming culture is not. Take TheYango's statement about Diamond level play on NA being <= below-30 level play on Korea as an example. This is the same as it was in Starcraft. People joke about Korean tryhards but that is precisely how it is - Korean gamers value playing competitively, while American gamers do not. American gamers see games as opportunities to screw around and relax, and this shows competitive gaming's low status in the US. Tryhards are looked down upon; griefers and jokers are elevated. Where the US value success in physical sports - ie the 'jock culture' of American high schools - they devalue success in video games - ie the 'geek culture' of American high schools. Triumph in physical sports is seen as a display of masculinity and virility - ie 'chick magnet', 'leadership', 'manliness', etc - while triumph in video games is seen as geeky obsessive compulsive behavior and a loss of proper priorities. Are things changing? I don't know. I think mainstream American culture is still fundamentally against competitive gaming, though there is increasing acceptance of casual gaming. The issues holding competitive gaming in America back is too varied to discuss here, but suffice to say it's not just a matter of American pro gamers not trying. Show nested quote +
B) Artosis and Day[9] are amzing personalities. Perhaps you should build on that, as a community, as players, as people with social links in various fields. Maybe it will take longer in North America, perhaps you need a player that captures the hearts of the nation like Boxer did. I don't know. Keep trying, don't lament the lack of interest from Apple. Who cares about Apple? I'd rather see a moment of magic than some big gay fruit sign over some guys shirt. This is more than trying to sneak a deal. If it was about that Boxer would have cashed in years ago.
The thing is, I don't think America is ready to be captured by a video game personality the way South Korea was in the early 2000's. The cultural support for competitive gaming just isn't there. As I said, the 'jock culture' is preeminent even as casual gaming is accepted today. Being a tryhard is still looked down upon. The hope is on the next generation, but these days kids are going mobile / handheld. How about that - eSports on phones? Show nested quote +
C) I'm talking about actual effort into researching other teams, getting the best practice possible, trying insanely hard to improve your horizons, taking things to the limit. I can just tell from the interviews that Alex Ich knows more about the Korean teams than, say, Dyrus of Team Solo Mid for example. I see it from their picks and bans. Surely one thing that doesn't rely on infrastructure is the ability to obtain VODs of your opponents, and analyze the hell out of it? Or am I not allowed to mention members of Gambit Gaming since they are yet another exception to the rule?
Gambit is an outlier but not an exception. Eastern Europe, especially the old Soviet bloc, has ever produced a great chunk of Europe's finest teams in Dota and Starcraft, so that their success in LoL is not unique in the way TPA's is. I don't know what it is about Russians and Ukrainians, but they take to competitive gaming very well, even though they do get drunk before important games from time to time. Still, it's not the same as in Korea. I think European eSports is a goal to aspire to for American eSports, because they are better without vastly better infrastructure, even though we don't want to admit it. But beyond that, the infrastructure exists in neither Europe nor America to challenge Kespa organized eSports in Korea.
KeSPA created in order to guide the success of e-Sports? That's complete bullshit. They did NOTHING until 2005. I want you to take a close look at what they did to "guide" e-Sports until 2005, no speculations, actual research so you don't talk out of your ass like that. The KeSPA you know of now was created when it was eventually taken over by corporations that made the "birth of KeSPA version 2" possible in 2005, and the power struggles, actual active participation by the corportations/goverments (same shit, guys with money and power) only took place after the meteoric rise of the e-Sports scene. This is a fact. They will gladly pull the plug on it the moment it doesn't have the "magical pull" e-Sports has on the youth of Korea.
The cultural phenomonon that was Starcraft, and the circumstances you have described are more or less correct. However, this notion in your head that everything was made possible by money is just you twisting facts to suit your argument. The casters you see today on OGN would be the first to tell you they did not start riding on the money of the big corporations. The gamers before the advent of major corporate take-over formed houses, gathered together in order to play the best Starcraft possible did so despite having no money. The following that made the corporations take interest in the scene was made possible due to the circumstances, that's true, but they were NOT there from the start.
How mainstream do you think gaming is in Korea? How do you explain the laws that prevents kids below the age of 18 from playing games after 10 o'clock. Exactly how embracing of this culture are the people in power? There's never stopping constant media coverage over the threats of gaming on younger kids. Can you imagine CNN (or whatever's the prime time news coverage show over there) news stating how gaming makes kids violent, and in order to prove that SHUTS DOWN THE ELECTRICITY of an entire building (That houses a PC cafe) just to see the natural rage from the customers? You're paying money to play LoL or Starcraft on the ladder and the entire goddamned building shuts down. Of course you are going to curse, but news anchors then states something to the effect of "the teenagers playing these online games show tendencies of extreme violence when they are forced to stop playing".
What you are trying to say, I believe, is that the same generation of gamers in North America has failed to overcome to negative light gaming has been perceived by the more established, elder generations in control of the media, corporations and government. That's true in Korea too, but to a lesser degree due to the different circumstances you've mentioned. Gaming is NEVER going to be accepted by the established society until it reaches a certain breaking point where it becomes simply too huge to ignore. That's what's happening in North America. The gamers are being ignored.
I can tell you this much. I believe the gamers of Korea are on average much more passionate and dedicated than their North American counterparts. This is due to the various circumstances. This WILL create better gamers, better content, better casters and better analysts, if we take out the outliers that will obviously come along. The support that comes will only take place if you grow too big, and even then people will not respect you at all. It takes time. It takes luck. But NOTHING WILL HAPPEN unless you pour your heart out over it. That means every single one of you, especially more so if the average teen in North America is not going to take gaming seriously, nevermind the parents, teachers and people in mainstream media who obviously won't. If we're not making a difference, the established society will NEVER help you.
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