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On March 19 2013 00:20 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:46 cLutZ wrote:On March 18 2013 16:43 KissBlade wrote:
I don't know why people don't realize in Asia, they talent scout all the time. Meanwhile you got these glory day oldies on our teams like HsGG who hasn't been relevant for like ever. Let's not even mention TSM's stagnant lineup for like ever. NA scouting is really its weakest point imo. Dig pulled up Kiwikid from nowhere and look at what he has been doing. IWD's departure was the best thing to happen to them. Just about to say that. I mentioned it the Super Week write-up, but dig picking up Kiwikid has been one of the few examples of an NA team drafting for future potential instead of immediate talent. Kiwi didn't even main Top lane before dig picked him up (He played Mid and ADC for UT Austin). People kind of rag on his small champion pull but a lot of that's due to the fact he's only been maining Top for the last couple months.
The only problem with stuff like this is giving fan what they want to see. Marketing their players is very important for sponsors when skill isn't present. So changing out the popular players may cost the team fans since they cant gain fans with their show of skills because they don't have skills. However, I think that can change. If the NA scene does get the setup with a team house with a coach and strict practice regiment then they will be able to harness the talent from scouted players and be able to advertise their talent rather than their persona.
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On March 18 2013 16:07 Arbax wrote:Show nested quote +There's an interview with Locodoco who laughed off this notion that North American teams have it hard since they don't have high quality practice partners, he mentioned how Koreans (save for those who played on the NA server like Maknoon) had no idea on how to play the game, and had to catch up fast by learning from famous non-Koreans. That meant studying their play intensely, trying to play against them even if they look down on you, playing at uncomfortable hours just for the chance to learn from players more skilled than you are. Things were infinately harder for the Koreans. Don't blame it on practice, or try to discredit Korean success by telling yourself that they had "better practice". The likes of Fnatic, CLG and Gambit Gaming had better practice for months, if not years. Now that Korean LoL e-sports scene has been established, of course they have it "easier", but with the right dedication ANY team can be the best. The scene Europe has now has vastly more population, better level of skill and experience of the game than Korea had just a year ago. Just want to requote this as its important... Soo many na/eu "will catch up", or "koreans are overrated", "koreans have it easy" etc, etc supporters keep missing the fine line... Its the hard work and dedication... Locodoco has mentioned when they were behind, they dealt with the 150-200ping disadvantage to learn, for any chance to practice vs any na/eu team. There were no sponsers, no money coming in at the time, they practiced and worked hard to get to where they are. Fast forward to today, Now that the tables have turned, what has the NA scene done... other then make excuses... When its all said and done, the level of dedication and work ethics DOES NOT exist in the NA scene, despite all these "pro" teams stating that they are scriming, and working on there game play, trust me by korean or asian standards, its more then laughable, a child sitting at a internet cafe, theory crafting with his friends, and trying to get better at solo Q probably shows more dedication then most NA pro teams. All you ever see with NA teams is excuses upon excuses, and everything they say turns into an excuse because they dont do anything about it other then QQ'ing.
At the same time, do you think what Locodoco did was ever going to raise Korean LoL above the West? Because I don't. That sort of practice, however dedicated, is only going to take you so far. Playing on 150-200 ping disadvantage on crappy hours and following another scene's meta makes for above average followers, not world class leaders. While one has to follow before one is able to lead, the devil is in the transition.
Locodoco and co. did what they did to secure a head start, so that when the Korean LoL scene became professional, they were the guys the team managers went to with contracts. But that scene did not become professional because Locodo and co. begged to practice with NA teams with 150-200 ping. It came about because Kespa and other Korean eSports organizations saw LoL as the next big thing and pumped money and infrastructure into it. Thus, while what Locodoco and co. did resulted in their own success in that scene, it was not the cause for the success of Korean LoL.
I'm not trying to rain on this parade of dedication because dedication is obviously important. But thinking that all NA teams need to do is emulate Locodo and co. and play on Korea with 150-200 ping 10-12 hours a day is to ignore the failures of NA players who tried to do just that in SC 2. Sure, it raises your own skill level, but it doesn't make up for the difference in resources and infrastructure. Korean LoL surges ahead because of the latter, and no amount of dedication on the side of NA players is going to result in the formation of an American Kespa with dozens of team houses, coaches, and televised matches. Those things are out of the control of NA players.
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Are you talking about SC2 or League now??? Because NA players do have team houses, coaches and streamed matches ...
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On March 19 2013 09:51 KissBlade wrote:
Are you talking about SC2 or League now??? Because NA players do have team houses, coaches and streamed matches ...
Yeah that just happened recently right? I guess we just have to keep waiting, but I got a feeling their practice regiment isn't as strict as the Koreans.
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On March 19 2013 09:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 16:07 Arbax wrote:There's an interview with Locodoco who laughed off this notion that North American teams have it hard since they don't have high quality practice partners, he mentioned how Koreans (save for those who played on the NA server like Maknoon) had no idea on how to play the game, and had to catch up fast by learning from famous non-Koreans. That meant studying their play intensely, trying to play against them even if they look down on you, playing at uncomfortable hours just for the chance to learn from players more skilled than you are. Things were infinately harder for the Koreans. Don't blame it on practice, or try to discredit Korean success by telling yourself that they had "better practice". The likes of Fnatic, CLG and Gambit Gaming had better practice for months, if not years. Now that Korean LoL e-sports scene has been established, of course they have it "easier", but with the right dedication ANY team can be the best. The scene Europe has now has vastly more population, better level of skill and experience of the game than Korea had just a year ago. Just want to requote this as its important... Soo many na/eu "will catch up", or "koreans are overrated", "koreans have it easy" etc, etc supporters keep missing the fine line... Its the hard work and dedication... Locodoco has mentioned when they were behind, they dealt with the 150-200ping disadvantage to learn, for any chance to practice vs any na/eu team. There were no sponsers, no money coming in at the time, they practiced and worked hard to get to where they are. Fast forward to today, Now that the tables have turned, what has the NA scene done... other then make excuses... When its all said and done, the level of dedication and work ethics DOES NOT exist in the NA scene, despite all these "pro" teams stating that they are scriming, and working on there game play, trust me by korean or asian standards, its more then laughable, a child sitting at a internet cafe, theory crafting with his friends, and trying to get better at solo Q probably shows more dedication then most NA pro teams. All you ever see with NA teams is excuses upon excuses, and everything they say turns into an excuse because they dont do anything about it other then QQ'ing. At the same time, do you think what Locodoco did was ever going to raise Korean LoL above the West? Because I don't. That sort of practice, however dedicated, is only going to take you so far. Playing on 150-200 ping disadvantage on crappy hours and following another scene's meta makes for above average followers, not world class leaders. While one has to follow before one is able to lead, the devil is in the transition. Locodoco and co. did what they did to secure a head start, so that when the Korean LoL scene became professional, they were the guys the team managers went to with contracts. But that scene did not become professional because Locodo and co. begged to practice with NA teams with 150-200 ping. It came about because Kespa and other Korean eSports organizations saw LoL as the next big thing and pumped money and infrastructure into it. Thus, while what Locodoco and co. did resulted in their own success in that scene, it was not the cause for the success of Korean LoL. I'm not trying to rain on this parade of dedication because dedication is obviously important. But thinking that all NA teams need to do is emulate Locodo and co. and play on Korea with 150-200 ping 10-12 hours a day is to ignore the failures of NA players who tried to do just that in SC 2. Sure, it raises your own skill level, but it doesn't make up for the difference in resources and infrastructure. Korean LoL surges ahead because of the latter, and no amount of dedication on the side of NA players is going to result in the formation of an American Kespa with dozens of team houses, coaches, and televised matches. Those things are out of the control of NA players.
If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays.
How high do you rate the level of Garena Proleague? What do you think about the level of the Taiwanese server and the talent pool of amateurs there? How much money do you think was poured into the Taiwanese League of Legends scene by big companies?
Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals.
Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it.
I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out.
How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams?
There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will.
Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
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" If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed."
This.
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On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:34 Azarkon wrote:On March 18 2013 16:07 Arbax wrote:There's an interview with Locodoco who laughed off this notion that North American teams have it hard since they don't have high quality practice partners, he mentioned how Koreans (save for those who played on the NA server like Maknoon) had no idea on how to play the game, and had to catch up fast by learning from famous non-Koreans. That meant studying their play intensely, trying to play against them even if they look down on you, playing at uncomfortable hours just for the chance to learn from players more skilled than you are. Things were infinately harder for the Koreans. Don't blame it on practice, or try to discredit Korean success by telling yourself that they had "better practice". The likes of Fnatic, CLG and Gambit Gaming had better practice for months, if not years. Now that Korean LoL e-sports scene has been established, of course they have it "easier", but with the right dedication ANY team can be the best. The scene Europe has now has vastly more population, better level of skill and experience of the game than Korea had just a year ago. Just want to requote this as its important... Soo many na/eu "will catch up", or "koreans are overrated", "koreans have it easy" etc, etc supporters keep missing the fine line... Its the hard work and dedication... Locodoco has mentioned when they were behind, they dealt with the 150-200ping disadvantage to learn, for any chance to practice vs any na/eu team. There were no sponsers, no money coming in at the time, they practiced and worked hard to get to where they are. Fast forward to today, Now that the tables have turned, what has the NA scene done... other then make excuses... When its all said and done, the level of dedication and work ethics DOES NOT exist in the NA scene, despite all these "pro" teams stating that they are scriming, and working on there game play, trust me by korean or asian standards, its more then laughable, a child sitting at a internet cafe, theory crafting with his friends, and trying to get better at solo Q probably shows more dedication then most NA pro teams. All you ever see with NA teams is excuses upon excuses, and everything they say turns into an excuse because they dont do anything about it other then QQ'ing. At the same time, do you think what Locodoco did was ever going to raise Korean LoL above the West? Because I don't. That sort of practice, however dedicated, is only going to take you so far. Playing on 150-200 ping disadvantage on crappy hours and following another scene's meta makes for above average followers, not world class leaders. While one has to follow before one is able to lead, the devil is in the transition. Locodoco and co. did what they did to secure a head start, so that when the Korean LoL scene became professional, they were the guys the team managers went to with contracts. But that scene did not become professional because Locodo and co. begged to practice with NA teams with 150-200 ping. It came about because Kespa and other Korean eSports organizations saw LoL as the next big thing and pumped money and infrastructure into it. Thus, while what Locodoco and co. did resulted in their own success in that scene, it was not the cause for the success of Korean LoL. I'm not trying to rain on this parade of dedication because dedication is obviously important. But thinking that all NA teams need to do is emulate Locodo and co. and play on Korea with 150-200 ping 10-12 hours a day is to ignore the failures of NA players who tried to do just that in SC 2. Sure, it raises your own skill level, but it doesn't make up for the difference in resources and infrastructure. Korean LoL surges ahead because of the latter, and no amount of dedication on the side of NA players is going to result in the formation of an American Kespa with dozens of team houses, coaches, and televised matches. Those things are out of the control of NA players. If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays. How high do you rate the level of Garena Proleague? What do you think about the level of the Taiwanese server and the talent pool of amateurs there? How much money do you think was poured into the Taiwanese League of Legends scene by big companies? Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals. Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it. I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out. How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams? There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will. Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
Damn dude, that was a great read. Thank you for sharing!
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Ok I'm feeling dejavu here. Isn't this topic discussed thousand times over with BW and SC2? And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success? Haven't the Korean starcraft players proved this over and over again?
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On March 19 2013 15:57 caelym wrote:
Ok I'm feeling dejavu here. Isn't this topic discussed thousand times over with BW and SC2? And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success? Haven't the Korean starcraft players proved this over and over again?
No, this is a huge oversimplyfication. Just look at Idra who is a training machine and never really got the the very top. Quite a lot of semipro computer gamers train and play 8+ hours a day and never become anything.
The most difficult part about getting to the absolute top in any sports or competition is NOT putting the quantity of hours into it. Quite a lot of people are actually able to do this, however the usage of the hours are much more important, extremely difficult and it is very easy to fall into a monotomy where you are just doing what your supposed to do without thinking, especially after e.g. 20 days with 8+ hours of practice every single day.
Personal anecdote below:
I have a friend who was competing for Denmark at the Olympics in Beijing in 2008 in arrow and bow shooting (don't know the actual english word for the sport), who got to the top of the sport in just 2 years at a late age (19). What he did different compared to all his Danish and many foreign colleagues was the way he used his hours during training. He, along with his coaches, wrote diarys of litteraly every miniscule change he made in his stance, elbow angle, what he ate, how he had slept that night, the temperature in the air, how his focus was, what he was focusing on, what he was thinking about while shooting the arrows, etc etc etc, and compared this with exact results and performance of wher his arrows hit, and statistics on this.
His main strength then, was that he could do this very focused for many hours every day. He did NOT just get into this monotome training where he was just shooting a million arrows (aka Idra, and some LoL pros playing soloQ all day). He focused on every arrow, to make every shot arrow count. This got him to the top of a very competive sport in a short time, where everything is mechanics, comparable to esports.
Best example of current good practice mentallity in NA is Doublelift and Curse and for SKorea Jaedong.
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On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:34 Azarkon wrote:On March 18 2013 16:07 Arbax wrote:There's an interview with Locodoco who laughed off this notion that North American teams have it hard since they don't have high quality practice partners, he mentioned how Koreans (save for those who played on the NA server like Maknoon) had no idea on how to play the game, and had to catch up fast by learning from famous non-Koreans. That meant studying their play intensely, trying to play against them even if they look down on you, playing at uncomfortable hours just for the chance to learn from players more skilled than you are. Things were infinately harder for the Koreans. Don't blame it on practice, or try to discredit Korean success by telling yourself that they had "better practice". The likes of Fnatic, CLG and Gambit Gaming had better practice for months, if not years. Now that Korean LoL e-sports scene has been established, of course they have it "easier", but with the right dedication ANY team can be the best. The scene Europe has now has vastly more population, better level of skill and experience of the game than Korea had just a year ago. Just want to requote this as its important... Soo many na/eu "will catch up", or "koreans are overrated", "koreans have it easy" etc, etc supporters keep missing the fine line... Its the hard work and dedication... Locodoco has mentioned when they were behind, they dealt with the 150-200ping disadvantage to learn, for any chance to practice vs any na/eu team. There were no sponsers, no money coming in at the time, they practiced and worked hard to get to where they are. Fast forward to today, Now that the tables have turned, what has the NA scene done... other then make excuses... When its all said and done, the level of dedication and work ethics DOES NOT exist in the NA scene, despite all these "pro" teams stating that they are scriming, and working on there game play, trust me by korean or asian standards, its more then laughable, a child sitting at a internet cafe, theory crafting with his friends, and trying to get better at solo Q probably shows more dedication then most NA pro teams. All you ever see with NA teams is excuses upon excuses, and everything they say turns into an excuse because they dont do anything about it other then QQ'ing. At the same time, do you think what Locodoco did was ever going to raise Korean LoL above the West? Because I don't. That sort of practice, however dedicated, is only going to take you so far. Playing on 150-200 ping disadvantage on crappy hours and following another scene's meta makes for above average followers, not world class leaders. While one has to follow before one is able to lead, the devil is in the transition. Locodoco and co. did what they did to secure a head start, so that when the Korean LoL scene became professional, they were the guys the team managers went to with contracts. But that scene did not become professional because Locodo and co. begged to practice with NA teams with 150-200 ping. It came about because Kespa and other Korean eSports organizations saw LoL as the next big thing and pumped money and infrastructure into it. Thus, while what Locodoco and co. did resulted in their own success in that scene, it was not the cause for the success of Korean LoL. I'm not trying to rain on this parade of dedication because dedication is obviously important. But thinking that all NA teams need to do is emulate Locodo and co. and play on Korea with 150-200 ping 10-12 hours a day is to ignore the failures of NA players who tried to do just that in SC 2. Sure, it raises your own skill level, but it doesn't make up for the difference in resources and infrastructure. Korean LoL surges ahead because of the latter, and no amount of dedication on the side of NA players is going to result in the formation of an American Kespa with dozens of team houses, coaches, and televised matches. Those things are out of the control of NA players. If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays. How high do you rate the level of Garena Proleague? What do you think about the level of the Taiwanese server and the talent pool of amateurs there? How much money do you think was poured into the Taiwanese League of Legends scene by big companies? Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals. Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it. I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out. How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams? There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will. Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
Beautifully written and agreed on all points.
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On March 19 2013 15:57 caelym wrote:
And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success?
Not quite. NA teams train a lot but you don't become a world class team simply by grinding, it's more about the quality of training.
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On March 20 2013 00:23 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:57 caelym wrote:
And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success? Not quite. NA teams train a lot but you don't become a world class team simply by grinding, it's more about the quality of training.
Or players.
NA still so stagnant.
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On March 20 2013 00:23 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:57 caelym wrote:
And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success? Not quite. NA teams train a lot but you don't become a world class team simply by grinding, it's more about the quality of training.
The biggest difference between Korea and the western world seems to be the role of the coach within the team. To my knowledge not a single US or EU team has a fulltime coach whose job it is to scout the opposition (and talentscout of course) and create strategies. Frankly if the teams want to get ahead that is where they should start, by hiring not only a manager but also a fulltime coach, ideally someone with a background in sport sciences.
EG just hired someone like that for SC2, I hope they will hire a similar expert for their LoL team.
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there are "managers" for most NA teams but they are largely people who know even less than the players, as in about the game and about the scene.
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On March 20 2013 01:12 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 00:23 Dan HH wrote:On March 19 2013 15:57 caelym wrote:
And doesn't it just boil down to more training = more success? Not quite. NA teams train a lot but you don't become a world class team simply by grinding, it's more about the quality of training. The biggest difference between Korea and the western world seems to be the role of the coach within the team. To my knowledge not a single US or EU team has a fulltime coach whose job it is to scout the opposition (and talentscout of course) and create strategies. Frankly if the teams want to get ahead that is where they should start, by hiring not only a manager but also a fulltime coach, ideally someone with a background in sport sciences. EG just hired someone like that for SC2, I hope they will hire a similar expert for their LoL team.
Pretty sure Liquid on Curse.na does that, but obviously he has to do "usual" manager stuff on the side, as well so he's not 100% dedicated to scouting and prepping strats. Not sure if groove from Gambit does anything like scouting etc or if he only takes care of things outside the game.
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On March 20 2013 01:16 zulu_nation8 wrote:
there are "managers" for most NA teams but they are largely people who know even less than the players, as in about the game and about the scene.
Why do you always hate our GTSRS?! He is really the most amazing team manager i know.
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On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:
If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays.
As TheYango said, TPA is a veteran team hailing from the very early days of LoL, and its success occurred at the time the transition between amateur and professional was happening in Korea. TPA's one off and rather unique success in the Taiwanese scene is similar to Gambit in that regard. These days, they are starting to fall off vis-a-vis Korean teams.
Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals.
TPA mainly practiced against Chinese and SEA teams AFAIK.
Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it.
Indeed, Riot is pouring money into the scene, but the eSports infrastructure of the NA is not and was never professional. LoL is the first game in which there is this kind of support from a sponsor, and this sponsorship is not only unique but highly contingent on Riot's whim and will, for it has very little support from other organizations such as corporations and media.
Korea, by contrast, has 10+ years of BW development under Kespa, during which there was both corporate sponsorship and media support. Korean BW, SC 2, and LoL is broadcast on TV. Korean coaches, managers, talent scouters, etc. all have tremendous experience in this area, which Korean culture and laws are conducive towards. While this experience was in Starcraft, ultimately a great deal of it does transfer over.
This is why, for example, you hear of Korean coaches being coaches while NA 'coaches' are only managers.
I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out.
There are indeed a lot of teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, but in the end, who is going to succeed? I agree that the 'magic eSports formula' is not a Korean specific formula; but at the same time I argue that it does not exist in NA.
How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams?
There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will.
Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
There is an explanation for everything, and while the lack of ambition and dedication among NA players is not an invalid explanation, it ought to be one of the last explanations. Otherwise, we have to explain why NA players lack ambition and dedication, and that is difficult to do given that NA people excel in plenty of other fields, including physical sports in which, for example, we boast the best Olympics team in the world. NA has people with talent, ambition, and rigorous work ethics.
Of course, all of this is in a way moot because it is not known yet whether NA is going to succeed. Riot's efforts at infrastructure building has occurred only recently and such efforts take time before they pay off. What I am saying, however, is that the previous results registered by NA players and teams in both LoL and other eSports are products of infrastructural weakness and lack of legal / cultural support. Thus the SC / SC 2 analogies.
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I'm talking about ALL NA managers. It's very simple, how do you become knowledgeable about the scene without playing the game? How do you know who's good or not without knowing what to look for? And beyond all that, most managers aren't nice or even sociable when their job relies on making contacts and knowing people.
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On March 20 2013 01:16 zulu_nation8 wrote:
there are "managers" for most NA teams but they are largely people who know even less than the players, as in about the game and about the scene.
That is exactly what I mean. A manager for the buisness aspect is one thing, but what they need would be a coach for the ingame aspects. Ideally someone who understands the game on a very high level and has a background in sports psychology / training plans. Obviously I have no clue where you could find such a specimen, but you could start like the Koreans did by taking retired pro gamers and having them work in similar functions.
No matter how good you are sometimes you will need outside perspective to really find your faults. When I was part of a basketball team the new coach we had one season made me practice throwing inner court shots (my english skills are lacking, throws from within 3m) for days at a time, even if I felt that was the area where I was already solid. He felt I'd need to hit 99% if unchallenged and at least 80% against a defender. After about 2 months of training like that our team improved in the ranking by 7 slots from 9th to 2nd. Not a single player changed, simply our focus during training was changed.
If you look at CLG or EG or heck even Curse playing, there are literally 100s of things you could change to make them different, and maybe better (Wicked needs more champions, Cop/Elementz need to work on their teamwork, Cop needs to farm better etc. etc. etc.), but only a true professional himself would be able to say: "you should work on XX and he needs to work on YY" to really increase their performance as a team.
edit: zulu in regards to your latest post there is also one more thing to keep in mind, someone being good or not isn't the deciding factor either. Don't forget LoL is a team based game, the prospective player also needs to fit within a team. Take Voyboy, he is obviously one of the deciding factors of why Curse is doing well, but he didn't fit at all into CLG's playstyle.
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I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches.
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EPT
