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On March 20 2013 01:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches.
If you say so. Have you tried? There are likely quite a few people who have a decent understanding of the game but lack the dedication to reach the highest mechanics (or to keep up mechanically after a bit). Obviously LoL cannot recruit 12 years worth of BW players/coaches like SC2 can, but there are almost certainly quite a few ex-Dota professionals who might want to continue working in an esport, even if they cannot play anymore (or simply don't want to anymore).
Maybe I'm wrong and no such people exist, but I somehow find that hard to believe. It's a matter of money for most teams, they feel they can profit more by paying 5 players who do things like stream and represent brands as alternative income sources than by paying 1 coach and 5 players and trying to win tournaments.
If the teams truly want to compete at the highest international level that is where they must start. I'm not going to go out on a limb and say every Korean team has a top notch coach, but I can guarantee that every top team has at least 1, or even coaching staff Kespa style.
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Until I see one, I will say that it's not possible. I currently play a decent amount of 5s and some competitive. My understanding is that you have to reach a certain level of mechanics and fundamentals to think about the game at a basic level for 5s. If you do not have the experience required to reach that level of individual play, a lot of the finer points in 5s will be incomprehensible I am not sure how the Koreans do it, but I doubt the coaches have much strategic input, and seeing that most of the league coaches came from BW, I'm sure they understand their own limitations. Coaches can push players into doing their own research and studying the game, but ultimately the players themselves have to want to put in the work and have the necessary dedication and a minimum level of intelligence in order to improve and succeed. But that is not to say that there are still plenty of coachable areas in competitive LoL.
In the meantime though, I believe that in order for a team like curse to step up to the next level, aside from replacing players, it's mostly up to the team itself, and the strategist/shotcaller to analyze why they are at the level they are at.
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On March 20 2013 01:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches.
You could say the same applies to every pro-level scene of anything.
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I don't think it applies in any way whatsoever to sports like football/basketball, etc. Coaches are actually the strategists in those cases.
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I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with.
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On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with.
Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though.
Kr strategy just better imo; they're far more willing to try new things.
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On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with.
Well, for one thing, it is a coach's job to tell those players that their mechanics are below par, and to create training regimens for them to improve within a period of time / otherwise be dropped from the team.
Again, all of it comes down to infrastructure and professional standard. A player who is behind on mechanics needs to be told so by his coach, and his coach needs to help him overcome that limitation and to drop him when he isn't up to the task.
LoL mechanics do not need 350 APM and players do not have to sign carpal tunnel risk contracts before joining a team. Coaches ought to require top tier mechanics from their players.
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Well you can say something about the dedication of CLG. They needed a coach to actual pracc normaly, because didnt came out of their bed and didnt had the mentality to become the best team in NA. Ofcourse they had a lot of talking but that was always BS talking after a loss or "win vs bot 4 LCS".
Kelby is somehow does the personal coaching but the strategic is comming from somone who is totaly over estimating himself (chauster/Sensei). And who is the "best" player but he doesnt practice.
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On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with. Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though. Kr strategy just better imo; they're far more willing to try new things.
just because DL said so, it's not reality. I don't think guys like cop, nien, brunch, chaox, dontmashme, etc are > Score, Pray, cpt jack, sbs, woong, even Loco. What does " on average" even mean when it comes to the pro scene.
I don't even know what basis you use for the rest of your comparisons. Not only are there way too few games to even say whos better or equal than who, but as far as I can remember every NA team has been shit on by koreans so far. Even fnatic and EG in their current shape would stand no chance, only gambit seems to be as good as them.
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On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with. Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though. Kr strategy just better imo; they're far more willing to try new things.
I feel you're being a little fanboyish. Only doublelift is mechanically on par. NA mids are far behind. I agree that NA junglers are decent.
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On March 20 2013 01:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches.
That is...the opposite of true.
The thing is, the best players often know very little about how the game actually works. See: Michael Jordan trying to be a manager/owner of a basketball team.
Plus, the NA teams besides Curse/Dig are basically owned by the players, which is a terrible setup.
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United States47024 Posts
While I can't say I know as much about how it applies to KR (I don't know how much the coaches for the various Korean teams play the game) I do know that many of the current Chinese teams had their coaches come out of being ex-players for those teams. While it varies from team to team, many of them still continued to play the game at a high level even while they were coaches (not just solo queue, but participating in/observing practice matches between high level semi-pro teams, etc.). Joker used to play on WE before he became coach, LonelyHot played on IG, Ayaya played on LGD before he became coach (though he later left the organization altogether), etc.
Joker actually scouted Weixiao directly from playing against him in a high-level practice match against Weixiao's semi-pro team at the time.
WE has also specifically said that their other coach, Aaron, has significant direct input into how they play the game.
On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:
Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though.
ROFL, come on wei2coolman, your NA fanboyism becomes more ridiculous and stupid every day.
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On March 20 2013 01:38 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:34 Letmelose wrote:
If success in the professional League of Legends is completely reliant on the unique e-Sports scene only available in Korea, how do you explain Taipei Assassins' success? I'm hesitant to even delve into this because I know so little, but how much media exposure do you think they had compared to other elite teams? How much corporate sponsorship do you think they had? I'm guessing not much different than Korean teams during their early days or North American teams nowadays. As TheYango said, TPA is a veteran team hailing from the very early days of LoL, and its success occurred at the time the transition between amateur and professional was happening in Korea. TPA's one off and rather unique success in the Taiwanese scene is similar to Gambit in that regard. These days, they are starting to fall off vis-a-vis Korean teams. Show nested quote +Here's what I believe. Taipei Assassins was formed by passionate, ambitious and talented players that did not have the greatest infrastructure around them. You might say that it was easy to scrim against other Asian teams. I obviously do not. How willing do you think the Korean teams were to practice against some team from Taiwan with really bad pings and what seemed to be mediocre skills, and the obvious existing language barrier? I've heard that they had crushing defeats at the hands of many Korean teams who obviously thought they were a level below them, but they persisted and eventually had the final laugh at the S2 World Finals. TPA mainly practiced against Chinese and SEA teams AFAIK. Show nested quote +
Exactly how are the North American scene at a disadvantage? You guys have a huge fan base. Riot IS pouring money into the scene, in a way that is reasonably comparable to other regions, and in many ways, even more so. The player pool is large, and definately easier to form teams than it is in Taiwan for example. North America already has a scene set-up for the top eight teams. With a pretty neat schedule that keeps them motivated throughout the year. You have more things going for you than SO many teams with just as much talent and dedication, but you fail to see it.
Indeed, Riot is pouring money into the scene, but the eSports infrastructure of the NA is not and was never professional. LoL is the first game in which there is this kind of support from a sponsor, and this sponsorship is not only unique but highly contingent on Riot's whim and will, for it has very little support from other organizations such as corporations and media. Korea, by contrast, has 10+ years of BW development under Kespa, during which there was both corporate sponsorship and media support. Korean BW, SC 2, and LoL is broadcast on TV. Korean coaches, managers, talent scouters, etc. all have tremendous experience in this area, which Korean culture and laws are conducive towards. While this experience was in Starcraft, ultimately a great deal of it does transfer over. This is why, for example, you hear of Korean coaches being coaches while NA 'coaches' are only managers. Show nested quote +
I don't think it's the infrastructure. There's so many teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, and they don't all have the "magic Korean e-Sports formula" behind them. This is the cutting edge of e-Sports with the entire world trying to come out on top and you have to keep on track. That means scouting for the best players, forming the best possible team, having a dedicated coach and manager. There are so many teams are in a cut-throat competition for the top dog spot, with weaker teams and players constantly dying out.
There are indeed a lot of teams out there trying to be the best and succeeding, but in the end, who is going to succeed? I agree that the 'magic eSports formula' is not a Korean specific formula; but at the same time I argue that it does not exist in NA. Show nested quote +
How many North American teams are actually actively scouting for information outside of their scene? If you watch Alex Ich's interview, you'll see that he is well rehearsed in the Korean scene. Hell, the most intense issue in Korea recently was whether Easyhoon (a nobody outside of Korea but very talented) or Ambition was the better mid-lane. Alex Ich mentioned Easyhoon even without media coverage. He scouts for information and reaps the benefits. Gambit Gaming stomped Korean teams by executing their picks and bans very intelligently. How many North American teams actually swallow their pride and attempt to practice against non-NA teams?
There is one thing North American teams in general excel at. It's the business side of things. Making a brand out of their teams and players. Being personalities that fans are attracted to. Gaining media attention through "reality shows" and gaining more sponsorship. It's really smart stuff that takes talent in its own right, and is perhaps the correct choice that allows them to stay afloat. There's SO MUCH MONEY being poured into the NA scene, but the money being poured creates a better brand, more personalities recognizable to the fans, more media coverage of their favourite teams rather than the formation of the most competitive teams. It's all good. I'm sure the members of TSM will have more lucrative careers than members of TPA ever will.
Don't blame money or infrastructure on this. It's all about the will to succeed. If you can't succeed with the infrastructure and opportunities available in North America, you don't deserve to succeed. There are teams that had it worse, and overcame those obsticles. Korea might not be the best comparison like you mentioned since we have a deep e-Sports background, but there are plenty of teams more successful result-wise than North American teams and they often have things worse. This is a fact. And you cannot deny this.
There is an explanation for everything, and while the lack of ambition and dedication among NA players is not an invalid explanation, it ought to be one of the last explanations. Otherwise, we have to explain why NA players lack ambition and dedication, and that is difficult to do given that NA people excel in plenty of other fields, including physical sports in which, for example, we boast the best Olympics team in the world. NA has people with talent, ambition, and rigorous work ethics. Of course, all of this is in a way moot because it is not known yet whether NA is going to succeed. Riot's efforts at infrastructure building has occurred only recently and such efforts take time before they pay off. What I am saying, however, is that the previous results registered by NA players and teams in both LoL and other eSports are products of infrastructural weakness and lack of legal / cultural support. Thus the SC / SC 2 analogies.
1) That doesn't really provide much explanation here. Korean teams from the early days were composed of high-ELO stars from the NA server too - MiG Frost, Najin Shield and Team OP. Some faltered. Others kept up their pace in an ever expanding scene. The members of Taipei Assassins had pretty much the same level of experience in LoL as the members of Azubu Frost except for Shy. North Americans had much greater numbers of high-ELO players in comparison to the Koreans or Taiwanese people. They simply didn't keep their intensity in trying to be the best.
Perhaps Taipei Assassins are the exception to the rule. Then again, if they can do it, what stops the other teams from doing the same?
2) I was trying to prove a point that Taipei Assassins went out of their way to practice against teams from other regions, and reaped the benefits. Why did they scrim against Korean teams and participate in online tournaments against Korean teams when practice against Chinese and SEA teams was much easily done?
I mean, TPA had their strategies against Azubu Frost down to the wire. They had CloudTemplar's jungle routes right down to the wire and completely zoned him out of the game, so much so that he has nightmares about the games to this day. They banned out what they felt was Madlife's most threatening picks. This kind of stuff never would have happened if they didn't do their research. I'd imagine preparations of similar magnitude were done in order to prevail against the heavily favoured Moscow 5. The level of preparation TPA showed in that tournament could have been done by ANY team, but it happened to be TPA and guess what? They won.
3) You highly overestimate the level of the Korean LoL e-Sports scene. It's not even close to the heights that was reached in Brood Wars. The systematic factory-like production skilled amateurs being honed into well oiled machines at professional levels is not being done here. It's a work in progress, like it is for a lot of regions. Of course the e-Sports experience does seep in, but not to the level you state in my personal opinion.
It's one thing to fight for a lost cause, but when you have clearly seen others succeed against the odds, you don't just throw your hands in the air just because the conditions aren't as optimal as you'd like it to be. The media exposure doesn't come free. The coorporate sponsorship and prestige as a legitimate competition doesn't just fall out of your ass. It's what the Korean progamers, their fans, the passionate guys in the production who believed in this thing, made through years of blood, sweat and tears. It's a cultural phenomonon that was created during my generation, and is constantly threatened by the elder establishment who simply wish this away.
You think it's all roses here in Korea? There are law restrictions specifically designed to combat gaming in young people, the "gaming-addiction" seen as a pest to the society, there willl never be news coverage over the e-Sports scene on national television no matter how big the viewership is amongst the young people (unless it's covered in a negative light). It's the passion and dedication of everybody involved that's keeping this thing alive. Korean professionals benefiting from the infrastructure? They ARE the infrastructure. The level of "infrastructure" that was reached in Brood Wars was only possible because of the highly talented and insanely dedicated individuals building a legacy that came into fruition years later. Only to be torn down... but lets not get started on that issue, it makes me way too sad.
3) North American players lack the dedication shown by the very best performing players from other regions. This is an inrefutable fact. They may have things worse for them in some cases, but there are others who have prevailed through worse. The very fact that you provide excuses just because North Americans did not have the very best support available makes me wonder how much you feel success has to bestowed upon these team you are defending.
North America had the largest pool of high level players for the longest time. But so many players were just content with streaming whilst trolling on the ladder. Sure they stomped faces when competitions came around, but they were never dedicated to the game that other pioneers of progaming such as Boxer were. When competition became more stiff, they simply fell down the ladder, just like other teams who were not focused on being the best. The teams that stayed at the top were the ones that tried hard. North America right now could have been the leading scene in LoL. They still can be.
But for heaven's sake stop pretending everything has to be handed down to them on a silver platter. The past failures were not products of infrastructual weakness. If they keep being mediocre, sure, in a few months the infrastructural differences will add up to be far too great. It's up to them to not let it get to that point. It's an uphill battle, sure, but seriously, just giving up will make the North American look so pathetic.
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On March 20 2013 03:15 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 01:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't disagree, but pro LoL is a very unique situation. Someone like Liquid, being an ex "pro" can push his players to find their own faults, but even as an outside observer he wouldn't know anything more than his players about the game itself, and hence what problems they have, mistakes they need to fix, etc. It takes someone who plays the game currently, and those people wouldn't become coaches. That is...the opposite of true. The thing is, the best players often know very little about how the game actually works. See: Michael Jordan trying to be a manager/owner of a basketball team. Plus, the NA teams besides Curse/Dig are basically owned by the players, which is a terrible setup.
i'm talking about preparing strategies
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You guys seem to be placing a lot of responsibility on coaches to push their team to the next level. What are your opinions on player/coaches like Scarra and Alex Ich? Having a strong team captain seems to be just as important (if not more) as good management. Teams without a good captain have a track record of underperforming (see TSM and CLG).
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On March 20 2013 07:15 caelym wrote:
You guys seem to be placing a lot of responsibility on coaches to push their team to the next level. What are your opinions on player/coaches like Scarra and Alex Ich? Having a strong team captain seems to be just as important (if not more) as good management. Teams without a good captain have a track record of underperforming (see TSM and CLG).
Yes a good team captain is important to a teams success, but there is no way that such a player will be able to do everything that a full time coach does and still keep in tip top shape.
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On March 20 2013 03:14 caelym wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with. Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though. Kr strategy just better imo; they're far more willing to try new things. I feel you're being a little fanboyish. Only doublelift is mechanically on par. NA mids are far behind. I agree that NA junglers are decent.
On March 20 2013 03:12 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:On March 20 2013 02:43 caelym wrote:
I agree that managing/coaching in NA can definitely use improvement, but I don't think that's even the biggest problem. NA players themselves are a class below Koreans on mechanics alone. So many games are lost because of poor execution, not strategy and preparation that a coach can help out with. Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though. Kr strategy just better imo; they're far more willing to try new things. just because DL said so, it's not reality. I don't think guys like cop, nien, brunch, chaox, dontmashme, etc are > Score, Pray, cpt jack, sbs, woong, even Loco. What does " on average" even mean when it comes to the pro scene. I don't even know what basis you use for the rest of your comparisons. Not only are there way too few games to even say whos better or equal than who, but as far as I can remember every NA team has been shit on by koreans so far. Even fnatic and EG in their current shape would stand no chance, only gambit seems to be as good as them.
Pray and Score are probably the 2 in Kr, I'd say are on par with top NA ADC's. Loco weak, capt jack weak, woong all weak, they're all carried by their supports; On average, Kr adc's are around where EU adc's are at. Mechanically better than NA counterparts; maybe. But, are they better ADC's? hardly. qtpie, cop, dl, nien, even the lower tier solo queue adc stars in NA are better than a lot of their international counterparts (With exception of China).
NA mids are slightly behind Kr mids, but only slightly. There are a lot of impressive NA mids that I'd argue could go toe to toe with a lot of the Kr mids.
And when you say Kr team shit on NA teams, I agree. no doubt; but we're talking about role players, and isolating role play from game results. I'm saying NA players have the potential, there exists already a pool of talent that could challenge Kr teams.
It wouldn't be hard to pool a team of decent NA players, set up Kr like infrastructure, and get them on that level in the same time. Curse is one of those teams that are headed towards that direction.
On March 20 2013 03:59 TheYango wrote:While I can't say I know as much about how it applies to KR (I don't know how much the coaches for the various Korean teams play the game) I do know that many of the current Chinese teams had their coaches come out of being ex-players for those teams. While it varies from team to team, many of them still continued to play the game at a high level even while they were coaches (not just solo queue, but participating in/observing practice matches between high level semi-pro teams, etc.). Joker used to play on WE before he became coach, LonelyHot played on IG, Ayaya played on LGD before he became coach (though he later left the organization altogether), etc. Joker actually scouted Weixiao directly from playing against him in a high-level practice match against Weixiao's semi-pro team at the time. WE has also specifically said that their other coach, Aaron, has significant direct input into how they play the game. Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:51 wei2coolman wrote:
Eh, depends. NA ADC's > Korean ADC's on average; NA mids are around same level as Kr mids; junglers are around the same. Kr toplaners and supports are just on another level though. ROFL, come on wei2coolman, your NA fanboyism becomes more ridiculous and stupid every day.
You telling me, you couldn't create like 3-4 teams of existing NA talent, that could arguably have same level of individual "talent" as korean teams, right now? Pool of player talent in their individual roles are all distributed somewhat among regions, with certain regions having better players in certain roles.
Essentially, what i'm saying individual talent roles, exist in all regions in around same level; it's a matter of whether or not you can aggregate them into a functioning team.
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I'm pretty sure those NA guys you mentioned are NOT better than the korean ads,
and I'm still wondering how you can come to the conclusion that certain roles are "slightly" behind their korean fellows when there's basically no samplesize for that except for koreans stomping white dudes over and over.
I don't even want you to write a long complex post about how you come to the conclusion how player A does things better than B or how C is better than D.
But just an example.
How can you claim Score is "only" on par with cop or how is NyJacky "only" slightly behind Ryu when all we have is a 2x 20min stomp bo3 as a samplesize.
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On March 20 2013 07:53 AsnSensation wrote:
I'm pretty sure those NA guys you mentioned are NOT better than the korean ads,
and I'm still wondering how you can come to the conclusion that certain roles are "slightly" behind their korean fellows when there's basically no samplesize for that except for koreans stomping white dudes over and over.
I don't even want you to write a long complex post about how you come to the conclusion how player A does things better than B or how C is better than D.
But just an example.
How can you claim Score is "only" on par with cop or how is NyJacky "only" slightly behind Ryu when all we have is a 2x 20min stomp bo3 as a samplesize.
Do you seriously think, direct comparison is the only way measure skill? if that's the case you end up with NA style player drafting, recycle old talent because "hey, this player can play against this level of team, cuz he's done it before"; rather than drafting new talent.
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now I just think it's ridiculous how you just straight up claim that ad carries from lower tier NA teams, even SoloQ are better than guys like Cpt Jack or Woong who have played in plenty of LAN events and actually won shit. Hate Woong all you want, but if he was actually dead weight for Frost than they wouldn't have reached those 3 ogn finals and s2 finals.
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EPT
