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Seems unlikely. TF clears waves about as quickly as Karma and Regi did the same build against oRb earlier. Triple gp10 isn't uncommon on AP mids but it is uncommon on AP mids like TF who want to gank and thus need damage during the early and mid game.
You don't build gp10 on Ahri or Kassadin for the same reasons.
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On August 12 2012 13:18 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Right. Which is why I dunno why you'd pick TF of all champions to do that with. Why not just play triple gp10 Morgana or triple gp10 Gragas. End of the game you'll end up with a stronger team fight than TF with either champion. TF's biggest strength is how much he can influence the game with his ult during mid game which is why I don't understand the gp10 build on him. Still, I'd like to hear Regi's thoughts as he did the same build earlier against oRb.
Vs. Orb they were sieging from ~15-20 mins in the game. They were sapping all of Orb's gold that way, but also heavily taxing Regi's.
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He rushed HoG and had Philo before oRb was even sieging mid lol.
It was obvious he went into both games planning on going gp10. edit: In fact, it's likely that oRb sieged mid in response to him going gp10 to deny him a farm lane.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 13:25 overt wrote:
Seems unlikely. TF clears waves about as quickly as Karma and Regi did the same build against oRb earlier. Triple gp10 isn't uncommon on AP mids but it is uncommon on AP mids like TF who want to gank and thus need damage during the early and mid game.
You don't build gp10 on Ahri or Kassadin for the same reasons.
It's also really stupid because of how TF needs to get early AP pretty aggressively to have enough for Wild Cards to insta-clear ranged minions.
If you delay your AP itemization by ~1600 gold, you're not going to be able to insta-clear for a VERY long time, which has the potential to lose you more farm than the gp10 is worth when you want to gank as much as TF does.
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On August 12 2012 13:22 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Yeah, he definitely had some questionable and ineffective teleports early on. And that SGS rush at TSM's mid inhibitor turret was just not a good move, game looked pretty much over after that. I agree that Regi's TF didn't have the desirable impact that game, but I think his 3gp/10 was just a reaction to being pinned to his turret. He just wasn't quite sure how to play it.
Philo Stone takes over 13 min to even break even (if you want to sell it in the end). It takes nearly 27 min if you don't want to sell it. Heart of Gold has similar numbers. So that's nearly half an hour you need to wait before it becomes worth it. Even in a one hour game, your item is not actually doing anything for you for half the game.
In other words, in the 13 min window after picking up the GP10, he could have gotten 2xDrings and a bucketload of pots and still had pretty much the same effect as the HoG and Philo. (200hp and lots of regen, but with free AP for less money as well)
In the 27 minute window after picking up the GP10, if you get anything accomplished that the GP10 would not let you do (like a successful gank) then you're already more useful. In this instance, he could have had a DCap, like, 15 minutes earlier. Could have easily pushed a tower, or actually burst someone down in a gank or teamfight.
Getting GP10 which you do not plan on actually building anything from is basically saying you're content to wait nearly 30 min before you want your gold to do anything rather than do something useful now. This isn't some Korean low economy game where both teams are roaming. Regi pretty much stayed in lane and farmed most of the game. And he couldn't instaclear waves either since he had no AP. Not to mention when he tried his Ult-ganks he didn't have much burst. Imagine how that gank top could have gone if he had his DCap instead of several GP10 items.
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United States47024 Posts
Being able to insta-clear means you can leave to gank 4-5 seconds sooner, which means you get back to lane 4-5 seconds sooner, which means you miss 2-3 less creeps on every gank. 2-3 creeps every 2 minutes is about the rate of gold generation on gp10s, which means that buying triple gp10 over just having enough AP to insta-clear isn't even gaining gold because not being able to insta-clear means you miss more creeps when you gank.
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United States37500 Posts
Set is delayed until tomorrow because some of SGS are sick. Technically we have the venue for another hour.
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Sucks to hear. Hope SGS get better!
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Looks like I was wrong and you guys didn't have to wait around until midnight.
Hope the SGS team feel better and show us some good stuff tomorrow.
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lololol wildturtle tooled all over misaya
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2 SGS members vomited lol
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
is the asian rebroadcast already over?
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not sure, could be due to flight
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On August 12 2012 13:30 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:22 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Yeah, he definitely had some questionable and ineffective teleports early on. And that SGS rush at TSM's mid inhibitor turret was just not a good move, game looked pretty much over after that. I agree that Regi's TF didn't have the desirable impact that game, but I think his 3gp/10 was just a reaction to being pinned to his turret. He just wasn't quite sure how to play it. Philo Stone takes over 13 min to even break even (if you want to sell it in the end). It takes nearly 27 min if you don't want to sell it. Heart of Gold has similar numbers. So that's nearly half an hour you need to wait before it becomes worth it. Even in a one hour game, your item is not actually doing anything for you for half the game. In other words, in the 13 min window after picking up the GP10, he could have gotten 2xDrings and a bucketload of pots and still had pretty much the same effect as the HoG and Philo. (200hp and lots of regen, but with free AP for less money as well) In the 27 minute window after picking up the GP10, if you get anything accomplished that the GP10 would not let you do (like a successful gank) then you're already more useful. In this instance, he could have had a DCap, like, 15 minutes earlier. Could have easily pushed a tower, or actually burst someone down in a gank or teamfight. Getting GP10 which you do not plan on actually building anything from is basically saying you're content to wait nearly 30 min before you want your gold to do anything rather than do something useful now. This isn't some Korean low economy game where both teams are roaming. Regi pretty much stayed in lane and farmed most of the game. And he couldn't instaclear waves either since he had no AP. Not to mention when he tried his Ult-ganks he didn't have much burst. Imagine how that gank top could have gone if he had his DCap instead of several GP10 items.
I thought it was accepted knowledge that GP10 items get you to deathcap faster?
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=27381
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On August 12 2012 17:02 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:30 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:22 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Yeah, he definitely had some questionable and ineffective teleports early on. And that SGS rush at TSM's mid inhibitor turret was just not a good move, game looked pretty much over after that. I agree that Regi's TF didn't have the desirable impact that game, but I think his 3gp/10 was just a reaction to being pinned to his turret. He just wasn't quite sure how to play it. Philo Stone takes over 13 min to even break even (if you want to sell it in the end). It takes nearly 27 min if you don't want to sell it. Heart of Gold has similar numbers. So that's nearly half an hour you need to wait before it becomes worth it. Even in a one hour game, your item is not actually doing anything for you for half the game. In other words, in the 13 min window after picking up the GP10, he could have gotten 2xDrings and a bucketload of pots and still had pretty much the same effect as the HoG and Philo. (200hp and lots of regen, but with free AP for less money as well) In the 27 minute window after picking up the GP10, if you get anything accomplished that the GP10 would not let you do (like a successful gank) then you're already more useful. In this instance, he could have had a DCap, like, 15 minutes earlier. Could have easily pushed a tower, or actually burst someone down in a gank or teamfight. Getting GP10 which you do not plan on actually building anything from is basically saying you're content to wait nearly 30 min before you want your gold to do anything rather than do something useful now. This isn't some Korean low economy game where both teams are roaming. Regi pretty much stayed in lane and farmed most of the game. And he couldn't instaclear waves either since he had no AP. Not to mention when he tried his Ult-ganks he didn't have much burst. Imagine how that gank top could have gone if he had his DCap instead of several GP10 items. I thought it was accepted knowledge that GP10 items get you to deathcap faster? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=27381
Most of the gold benefits are provided by the rune setup and the 2 GP10 items. Adding another GP10 item and 9/0/21 masteries to the mix only has marginal effect.
It's only faster if you use GP10 runes and masteries along with the items. It's possible to see Regi going 9/0/21 for the summoners cd reduction but I can't imagine him going GP10 runes ever.
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On August 12 2012 12:03 Slusher wrote:
did anyone catch TD's games mTw.NA that much better now, or TD that much worse?
TD is not the same without nintendude. They don't practice as much either, and Atlanta is just a downgrade as a jungler
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 17:02 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:30 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:22 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Yeah, he definitely had some questionable and ineffective teleports early on. And that SGS rush at TSM's mid inhibitor turret was just not a good move, game looked pretty much over after that. I agree that Regi's TF didn't have the desirable impact that game, but I think his 3gp/10 was just a reaction to being pinned to his turret. He just wasn't quite sure how to play it. Philo Stone takes over 13 min to even break even (if you want to sell it in the end). It takes nearly 27 min if you don't want to sell it. Heart of Gold has similar numbers. So that's nearly half an hour you need to wait before it becomes worth it. Even in a one hour game, your item is not actually doing anything for you for half the game. In other words, in the 13 min window after picking up the GP10, he could have gotten 2xDrings and a bucketload of pots and still had pretty much the same effect as the HoG and Philo. (200hp and lots of regen, but with free AP for less money as well) In the 27 minute window after picking up the GP10, if you get anything accomplished that the GP10 would not let you do (like a successful gank) then you're already more useful. In this instance, he could have had a DCap, like, 15 minutes earlier. Could have easily pushed a tower, or actually burst someone down in a gank or teamfight. Getting GP10 which you do not plan on actually building anything from is basically saying you're content to wait nearly 30 min before you want your gold to do anything rather than do something useful now. This isn't some Korean low economy game where both teams are roaming. Regi pretty much stayed in lane and farmed most of the game. And he couldn't instaclear waves either since he had no AP. Not to mention when he tried his Ult-ganks he didn't have much burst. Imagine how that gank top could have gone if he had his DCap instead of several GP10 items. I thought it was accepted knowledge that GP10 items get you to deathcap faster? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=27381
That's based on the absolutely laughable assumption that you will be able to CS at the same rate with gp10 items as you would with real fighting items.
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On August 12 2012 18:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:02 Phrujbaz wrote:On August 12 2012 13:30 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:22 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 12 2012 13:13 Leporello wrote:On August 12 2012 13:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 12 2012 13:05 Nos- wrote:
Chaox so much more ahead than Graves, doing massive damage in these fights.
Also I think you guys give Regi a bit too much shit :/ Still, going HoG first in lane and then a Philo and then a Kage is a bad build for someone who wants to early gank like TF no matter how you look at it... It's not like he made a misplay. It's a conscious decision to do something like this. I think Regi felt pinned in his lane because Karma was pushing so hard. It hurt him a bit, but the dividends certainly paid off in the end. Honestly, going triple gold/10 might've been okay if Regi was resigned to just playign super passive and putting his faith in Xpecial/Chaox dominating bot lane to carry them through to the point where the gold/10 items are worth it, especially since Karma was pressuring his ass so damn hard. But Regi kept trying to make ganks happen when he had no damage to back it up, makin his item choice really weird/bad. If you noticed, Regi was essentially a stunbot that could get off maybe 1~2 stuns per fight and did no damage. It wasn't until he sat on his triple gold/10 for like 30 minutes to get his Dcap when he actually started making impacts on the game. Up until then, it was all Xpecial/Chaox holding them in the game + SGS doin some really stupid shit like pushing balls deep with 4 against 5 and diving TSM at their third tower. Yeah, he definitely had some questionable and ineffective teleports early on. And that SGS rush at TSM's mid inhibitor turret was just not a good move, game looked pretty much over after that. I agree that Regi's TF didn't have the desirable impact that game, but I think his 3gp/10 was just a reaction to being pinned to his turret. He just wasn't quite sure how to play it. Philo Stone takes over 13 min to even break even (if you want to sell it in the end). It takes nearly 27 min if you don't want to sell it. Heart of Gold has similar numbers. So that's nearly half an hour you need to wait before it becomes worth it. Even in a one hour game, your item is not actually doing anything for you for half the game. In other words, in the 13 min window after picking up the GP10, he could have gotten 2xDrings and a bucketload of pots and still had pretty much the same effect as the HoG and Philo. (200hp and lots of regen, but with free AP for less money as well) In the 27 minute window after picking up the GP10, if you get anything accomplished that the GP10 would not let you do (like a successful gank) then you're already more useful. In this instance, he could have had a DCap, like, 15 minutes earlier. Could have easily pushed a tower, or actually burst someone down in a gank or teamfight. Getting GP10 which you do not plan on actually building anything from is basically saying you're content to wait nearly 30 min before you want your gold to do anything rather than do something useful now. This isn't some Korean low economy game where both teams are roaming. Regi pretty much stayed in lane and farmed most of the game. And he couldn't instaclear waves either since he had no AP. Not to mention when he tried his Ult-ganks he didn't have much burst. Imagine how that gank top could have gone if he had his DCap instead of several GP10 items. I thought it was accepted knowledge that GP10 items get you to deathcap faster? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=27381 That's based on the absolutely laughable assumption that you will be able to CS at the same rate with gp10 items as you would with real fighting items.
There's no point discussing it, curse has lost more than 1 game because jacky had tripple gp10, lost a dragon fight because of it and couldn't come back into the game.
TSM also has lost a few games because regi went tripple gp10 and got completely shit on against like m5. People still think it's good tho, no point at all to discuss it.
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kage's is good because dfg is amazing
philo is excusable sometimes
hog is laughable in most cases, esp. after nerf except in reallllyyy fringe situations which wont occur in competitive LoL (maybe as aniv against 5 physical opponents)
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EPT
