Passive: Camouflage Description: If Teemo stands still and takes no action for 2 seconds, he becomes stealthed. Taking any action will break his camouflage, granting him 40% attack speed for 3 seconds. Notes: + Show Spoiler +
-The ward passive. Useful occasionally, mostly against dumb opponents. -Will not activate if you have taken damage in those 2 seconds. -At the start of the game, you can use it to ambush an opponent if you get to lane before them. -Can be used to juke if you get ahead of an opponent you’re running from and jump into a bush for 2 seconds.
Q: Blinding Dart Description: Teemo shoots a dart at an enemy, dealing magic damage and blinding them for a few seconds. Cooldown: 8 seconds Cost: 70/80/90/100/110 Mana Range: 580 arbitrary units Damage: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 80% AP) Blind Duration: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 seconds Notes: + Show Spoiler +
-Blind is good, especially in top lane where many champions are auto attackers like Jax, Trynd, Nasus, etc. -This is a relatively long ranged nuke, and can be used to poke under turret or against someone that is playing further back than your auto range. -Blind will not affect on-hit effects, so Darius slow, Garen silence, etc. will still hit you. -Blind only prevents bonus physical damage, so any bonus magic damage (Ori passive, Wit’s, Kayle’s Fury) will still deal damage. -While it’s a strong harass tool, it can be quite price-y mana-wise, so don’t spam it with impunity. Autos will do the same or more damage from a harass perspective, though with slightly more risk involved. -If you get Rylai’s, this will proc the full slow and make you an annoying shit.
W: Move Quick Passive Description: Teemo gains increased movement speed. Damage from champions and structures will disable this bonus for 5 seconds. Active Description: For 3 seconds, Teemo doubles his passive movement speed bonus. While active, Move Quick's bonus cannot be disabled via champion or structure damage. Cooldown: 17 seconds Cost: 40 Mana Passive MS: 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26% Active MS: 20 / 28 / 36 / 44 / 52% Notes: + Show Spoiler +
-One of the things that make you annoying as fuck. Your chasing/escaping potential is huge due to your high MS. -Minions will not deactivate his passive, so you can harass within the minion wave without worrying about anything but a bit of damage. -Do not use the active to chase unless you’re 100% certain you won’t need it. There’s nothing worse than chasing the enemy to their tower with W up, only to get ganked from the jungle and have no sprint. -Max this early against people you need to kite. It’s not as necessary against low-mobility opponents.
E: Toxic Shot Description: Teemo's auto-attacks deal bonus magic damage and poison his target, causing them to take additional magic damage over 4 seconds. Subsequent attacks only refresh the duration. On-Hit Damage: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+ 30% AP) Tick Damage: 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 (+ 10% AP) Total DoT Damage: 24 / 48 / 72 / 96 / 120 (+ 40% AP) Notes: + Show Spoiler +
-Generally the ability you’ll be maxing first. The damage is actually huge and adds up quite quickly against any melee champion that is forced to eat autos when he goes to farm. -Careful harassing with this near turret, as the poison will still cause aggro even when running in and out of range. -The damage will activate Hexdrinker/Maw, and will deal damage to the shield. The standard auto portion will still damage their health. -The magic damage applied from this will not proc Liandry’s or Rylai’s. -The magic damage WILL proc Morellonomicon, making it an excellent buy against someone like Voli. -Your poison can be used by Cass to proc her Twin Fang CD.
R: Noxious Trap Description: Teemo places a mushroom trap on the ground, which stealths and arms after 1 second. While armed, the traps grant vision in a 212.5 radius. If an enemy comes within 60 range of the trap, it will detonate, slowing and dealing damage over 4 seconds to nearby enemies within 200 radius. Each mushroom has 100 health and can only be destroyed by auto-attacks.
Noxious Traps have a 10 minute duration. Teemo generates a new trap periodically, affected by cooldown reduction, and can only store up to 3 traps at once. Reload Time: 35 / 31 / 27 seconds Cooldown: 1 second Cost: 75 / 100 / 125 mana Range: 230 arbitrary units Tick Damage: 50 / 81.25 / 112.5 (+ 20% AP) Total Damage: 200 / 325 / 450 (+ 80% AP) Slow Power: 30% / 40% / 50% Notes: + Show Spoiler +
-Aw yiss. This is what you know Teemo for. -Ward yo lane -Ward yo baron -Can be used to push, if you get a decent amount of AP one shroom can kill caster minions and bring melee down to nothing. -REMEMBER BATTLE SHROOMS. Always drop at least one shroom in a fight. The damage is high (even the base), so if you get forced into a stand-up fight (should be never), it helps kill people. -Place ahead of you while kiting, or on top of you if you’re getting jumped. -Once Oracles start coming out, Shrooms in the open don’t last long. Place them in brush so opponents have to facecheck them to clear. -The range isn’t quite enough to check a bush for you (unlike a ward), but you can place them over thin walls if you’re careful.
Flash is Flash. It probably will save your life at least once or twice per game. An argument can be made for Ghost if you don’t think you need Flash, as it gives great chasing/run away potential, which is Teemo in a nutshell.
Ignite is a lane killing summoner. As you’re a lane bully, it’s good. Shroom DoT + Ignite + E DoT can deal a huge amount of damage even after you walk away, for dives and the like. Also, as a Marksman with AP scaling, if you take the Ignite Mastery, you benefit from both portions nicely.
Teleport is great. It allows split pushing and gank assists to other lanes, or just general Teleport stuff like backing quickly. I would take this in lanes I don’t predict killing too much, or if I want to hard splitpush but also will be needed for teamfights. Again, standard Teleport shit.
Ghost as a second summoner (as in, Flash/Ghost) may be worth a look. It gives you huge mobility spikes and chasing/escaping power, which, again, is Teemo in a nutshell. Taking both limits your map presence and kill potential, but can make you even more of an annoying shit.
Masteries: My general Masteries are 9/21/0, the usual AP bruiser masteries. I prefer MPen and AP in the Offensive tree over AD and ArPen as you generally are getting more out of your EQE combo than you are just the auto damage. It also helps more late game with Shrooms and what not.
Other options are:
9/21/0 with an AD focus if you are looking to rush BotRK and FMallet.
21/9/0 if you want higher damage and don’t think you need Defensive masteries, generally works best with a full AP build.
15/15/0 as an experimental option with dual pen masteries and Spellsword. You could take out Spellsword if you aren’t planning on building a lot of AP.
...Don’t quote me on the specifics of the Defensive tree masteries, I like the CC and Slow reduction because hard engages and CC are your worst enemies, but I know many people take Juggernaut. There’s a lot of wiggle room in all of these, use your own preferences and judgements.
Runes:
Quints: MS Quints have no real equal for someone like Teemo. Other options include Hybrid Pen or AP. Marks: Hybrid Pen is the best choice 99% of the time. AS or MPen are decent alternatives if you can’t afford them. Seals: Armor. Glyphs: MR. Flat is my preferred option, but scaling are fine too.
You may also find it useful to run an Armor heavy page for someone like Panth, who can be quite the annoyance.
Skill Order:
EQEWER, R > E > Q > W is my general skill order. You may want to change it depending on matchup, however.
-W is useful to level if you’re going to be running in and away a lot. -Q is best to level against autoattackers with a hard gapcloser that you can’t deny. Fantastic against Xin/Yi, especially once they start trying to charge and fight you.
Item Build/Playstyle:
Here’s a list of good Teemo items, and reasonings. Afterwards are my ideas for building him.
Doran’s Ring: A good starting item. The mana return on kill means you can basically always use Q and W and lets you plant Shrooms with impunity. If you don’t think you need early defenses, this is probably your best starting item with 2 potions.
Doran’s Shield: A decent starting item against certain champs. Since you’re Teemo, you shouldn’t be taking a lot of early game auto harass except from maybe Kennen or Jayce. However, it’s still a good chunk of health and regen, so consider it if the situation warrants it.
Boots: A fine start if you don’t want to futz around with Doran’s items.
Later Boots: I generally prefer Tabi or Merc’s as my boot options, even as AP Teemo. Sorc’s if you’re really not worried about being jumped at all is fine, I suppose.
Don’t do Mobos, Swiftness are only good if you’re ahead and want to be an asshole to that Garen, Zerker’s don’t give you nearly enough with just AS. I guess you could do CDR boots, but I wouldn’t.
Nashor’s Tooth: Probably my favorite item on Teemo. Against anyone that you can auto, it turns you from annoying to a monster that makes people ragequit. AS/AP/AP on autos makes your E harass even scarier than you could imagine.
Zhonya’s: Seeker’s is a great item against heavy AD laners, you can even start Cloth and build into it easily. Also Zhonya’s active is great for being a troll and letting your DoTs kill people.
Guardian Angel: A great item, in all honesty. Look, you’re Teemo. People are going to jump you and try to instagib you, that’s just the way it is. It’s a strong defensive item and the passive can save your life or dissuade people from focusing you.
Blade of the Ruined King: IMO the best item for a Tank Teemo build. One stop shop for damage and AS, Active for chasing/kiting, sustain on someone who generally doesn’t have any.
Frozen Mallet: Another Tankmo item. Probably my favorite on him, though the build time can be quite annoying now that you can’t build it through Phage. Your auto harass is just a monster with this.
Liandry’s Torment: Not a bad choice for Teemo at all. His damages on shrooms and autos are strong enough to take advantage of the flat MPen, and you can tick away health with your DoTs by proccing Lidandry’s DoT.
Rylai’s Crystal Scepter: Not the best item, but a possibility. If you want health and a slow, I would wager FMallet is a much better option, but Rylai’s can be a fantastic boost to your Shrooms, especially if you have a Liandry’s. Additionally, if you’re AP and want a slow, I guess it scales better with Nashor’s and DC.
Rabadoodle’s Deathcap: If you’re AP Teemo and want to laugh as people’s health melts away. I find it hard to justify going straight AP most of the time, but if you are, this will make you laugh.
Wit’s End: A great choice for Tankmo, a pretty good choice for AP Bruiser builds if you need MR. Teemo does great with all the stats, pretty straightforward here.
Morellonomicon: A good buy if you’re against heavy sustain folks like Voli (passive), Mundo, Vlad, etc. As your E’s damage will proc it, you just kind of buy it and fuck them. The stats aren’t bad, either, and an early Kage’s in a lane you’re bullying can be nice.
Lichbane: I would advise against this as a first item, as you can’t really proc it enough to make it your main source of damage, but it makes Auto - Q - Auto combos super chunky. A great damage item to round out a build.
Runaan’s Hurrican: Yep, this item actually still exists. You can use it to be a total menace, too. If you’re going Tankmo and can afford to dedicate a slot to straight AS, the only other item that can really compete with this is like, Zephyr. Not to mention with FMallet you can slow 3 people per auto and kite like a motherfucker. Situational but good.
Void Staff: Same as it is on any AP champ. If you’re building AP and they’re stacking MR to the point where Wit’s/Liandry’s won’t cut it, you can grab this. Not core, though.
Trinity Force: Meh. Meh, in my opinion. Your AD isn’t super high, you’re not spammy, you don’t want Crit… meh. But Phage is a pretty good item so I guess you can do this if you want Phage in lane and don’t like selling.
Randuin’s Omen: Not a super great option, but can dissuade divers and give you a lot of kiting power..
In my opinion, there are two or three main build paths for Teemo - AP Bruiser, Tankmo, and AP.
AP Bruiser: Focus on defenses and AP as the game goes on, allowing flexibility but without being super strong in either area. Sort of an in-between of the other two, my normal build path. Great in 1v1s where you’re going to take some damage back.
For this one I generally start with DRing and 2 pots, then build Nashor’s Tooth. From there, I vary depending on how the game is going.
Liandry’s Lament is a good next item, again being a good AP Bruiser item and giving health and damage. Makes your autos and Shrooms deadly potent.
If I’m getting focused hard, I’ll go Zhonya’s Hourglass if heavy AD/burst avoidable with the active, or Guardian Angel if I’m just getting dove and instagibbed.
If I can afford to go high amounts of damage fast, Deathcap, Void Staff, and Hourglass are acceptable options.
My final build will generally look like Nashor’s, Deathcap, Guardian Angel, Liandry’s, Merc’s, Zhonya’s Hourglass.
Tankmo Probably the least overall effective build, but situationally it can be super strong and is, in my opinion, probably the most fun one to play. This focuses around getting tanky items and then BotRK as your one “straight damage” item.
I will generally start with DRing and 2 Pots if I feel safe enough, as it gives you sustain for the lane and just enough AP to harass hard early on with Auto-Q-Auto combos. Boots and 4 Pots is an acceptable start for this as well, as is Doran’s Shield 1 Pot or Cloth Armor 5 Pots.
Your main core for this build is Blade of the Ruined King and Frozen Mallet. This combo will let you be rather survivable and still have strong ranged harass. Your autos will do less damage than an AP build, but with the slow, % health, and Active, you can be a veritable threat.
Guardian Angel is again an all around good item for defensive purposes, especially against mixed damage opponents. If you’re worried about AP, Wit’s End with Merc’s is your best option. Against AD, Tabi is a solid early buy and Zhonya’s is still rather good, despite requiring a NLR to complete. If you want a straight defensive Armor item. Randuin’s Omen is good for kiting and denying divers.
If you have your core and are looking for more damage from this build, Wit’s, Liandry’s, and Runaan’s Hurricane are all good choices. Well, Hurricane is much more situational, but nice if you can afford it.
My final build with Tankmo is generally something like BotRK, Boots (Tabi or Merc’s), FMallet, GA, Liandry’s/Zhonya’s, and Wit’s.
I dislike straight AP Teemo. It has potential to be huge, but without hard CC, AoE, or a reliable escape, he’s really prone to just getting jumped and killed instantly. However, depending on teamcomp, enemy teamcomp, and how the game is going, you can make it work and do insane amounts of damage.
As with AP Bruiser, you’ll likely want to start Doran’s Ring and 2 Pots, but can even start Amp Tome if you’re feeling frisky.
Your first buy will, again, be Nashor’s Tooth, as it works too well with him and has such a good build path. You’ll want to follow this up with a Needlessly Large Rod item in Hourglass or Deathcap.
At this point, a MPen item is a good option, so either Liandry’s Torment or Void Staff. Abyssal Scepter is a decent option as well, but it does not affect your shrooms, and once people leave the range your poisons will not benefit from it anymore. Still, you can grab Abyssal if you want.
Grab Rylai’s or Guardian Angel if you need to fill a slot with a defensive item.
My general final build as AP Teemo looks like Sorc’s, Nashor’s, Deathcap, Rylai’s, Zhonya’s Hourglass, and Liandry’s Torment.
Here's some notes on AP Teemo from someone much better at it than I:
On October 02 2013 21:03 RouaF wrote: Overall good advices, the only thing I don't understand is why you never start with a ward, to me it seems like suicide, I'd really like to start with doran ring but it's pretty much impossible, you will die to ganks. I often start with boots 2 pots+ward or in matchups where they can trade with you, faerie 5 pots ward.
Here's my teemo experience :
I play full ap in diamond 1 running 21/9 but I never buy nashors. Ap teemo's strength comes from mushrooms, the aoe damage and the control they give is great . Basically if you play full AP you HAVE to use your shrooms correctly and your team HAS to play with them. If they commit to teamfights in open space where you hadn't time to setup shrooms, you will most likely lose.
The key to winning is just to be able to plant shroom forests around baron/dragon and force fights there, you will win these 100%. You'll also need to kill the enemy supports when he comes with pinks/oracle to destroy your precious shrooms, just stealth in a brush and wait for him to facecheck, with 1 shroom and auto Q auto he will be dead.
While this build might not be the easiest to play, it's insanely fun and will even sometimes makes teemo look overpowered, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing shrooms explode on 5 people when you have liandries+decent ap, also people "safe recalling" in brushes when they're low, *boom*.
Tbh i'd rate ap teemo mid/late game as very strong but his laning phase is really what's tricky, if you get ganked and your jungler is like meh teemo top i'll gank somewhere else you have a ton of chances to be heavily screwed because teemo needs to stay ahead and push his advantage. Once he gets behind he dies very quickly and doesn't have a lot of tools to outplay - the only one that I know of is shroom under your turret and bait a dive -.
TL;dr my teemo build 21/9 AP (sometimes 30/0/0 if I know they can't harass back), hybrid reds, scaling ap blues (if the enemy laner is ad), armor yellows, flat ap quints. Haunting guise/sorc core, then buld whatever AP, turn guise into liandries, build grail if needed. Laning phase extremely important, try to be nice to your jungler and ask him for counterganks.
Laning This is where you’re an asshole to like 90% of top champions. Any melee autoattackers more or less just cry against you, most other melees fear seeing you as well.
Harass, last hit, and run. These are the tenets of laning Teemo. Early on, you can’t fight pretty much anyone from 100-0, but you can harass them down to half from a range and then force them to run and chug pots. If they ever jump to engage on you, drop a shroom, hit W, and run, orbwalking if you have the ability. Even if you’re full health, it’s generally a bad idea to fight anyone in melee once your blind wears off.
Ranged champions like Kennen, Jayce, or Elise can give you trouble. They can generally trade harder than you and will usually not take your harass without chunking you in return.
I would recommend Tankmo in these situations. As long as you can survive, get tank stuff, and then splitpush as normal, you won’t be a huge liability to your team. Don’t expect to get kills in these lanes, and if you’re under your turret trying to last hit and push with Shrooms, well, that’s better than feeding.
Splitpushing This is where you shine. With an AP item or two, your Shrooms will instaclear a wave, or at least put it to the point where you can last hit in 2 seconds. Grab wards, put them in the usual spots, and Shroom entrances to the lane. As long as you see someone coming, between your Passive, W, and Shrooms, you should never get caught.
With Nashor’s or BotRK, you’ll drop towers pretty quick too. You will force at least one person to respond (if not more), and then you can either kite them or fight them. You can also steal buffs rather quickly depending on which build you went, so if you have good vision don’t be afraid to sneak off with their Red/Blue.
Teamfigthing Eventually, you have to teamfight. You can’t just splitpush all game, sad to say, either your team will rotate to you and group to push the tower, or you’ll have to go fight at Baron or one of your towers.
Teemo… is not the best teamfighter. No CC, no burst, middling range. That said, though, not all hope is lost. You can set up shrooms to give you an environmental advantage, and place them in fights to peel divers.
You have pretty darn good single target damage with any build, so utilize your kiting and orbwalking to whittle away at front/midliners.
If you have Zhonya’s or GA, don’t be afraid to run in and be a distraction, drawing fire with your fuzzy goodness.
Don’t use Blinding Dart for damage in a teamfight as long as there is a viable target to use it on. Your team should thank you for using it on Zed, Yi, and Jax when they jump in, though they probably won’t. If you’re able to use it on the enemy ADC, laugh and fuck them up.
Tips and Tricks -Your general combo is Auto-Q-Auto. Q has just the right length of cast/travel time to fit in between autos, so that combo will do a surprising chunk in lane. -Shrooms are expensive! Throw as many down as possible, but don’t get into a situation where you can’t use Q or W afterwards. -Battle Shrooms! Drop Shrooms in the middle of a fight, never have them sitting in your inventory if you can. -Teemo is not a complicated champ. You want to Blind autoattackers, Shroom to either slow or ward, and run like fuck with W. -Spam laugh. Trust me. -If you experience a lane swap and you are 1v2, you can go to lane and stealth there, you will be able to get full XP, they can't zone you if they don't see you ! :D
The one point I would make is that DFG on AP Teemo is an especially strong item, if you're looking to assassinate 1 person. With it, you become effectively a ranged assassin in terms of damage; your single target damage also spikes heavily, especially if you've been maxing Q (an alternate to E if you're looking for burst/short trades over sustained damage).
That being said, I've been returning to the viability of mid lane Teemo, where Q max is generally superior for trading.
I also feel Nashors Tooth, while an excellent item for the CDR, is a poor damage choice on AP Teemo, given the relatively weak AP ratio on it. A Lichbane on AP Teemo is more effective for the added burst (and the MS is nice), or DFG, which is, relatively speaking, what you play AP Teemo for.
That being said, Teemo top is probably his most viable position, but I'm reminiscing about the short burst of Mid AP Teemo FOTM, and will try to fiddle with it in SoloQ sometime.
CDR, while useful for more Shrooms, is a relatively weak stat on Teemo as well, given his poor AP Scaling/Second (link).
I'm nowhere near an authority on AP Teemo, I've done it like twice, and then only in lanes I know I'd demolish.
Still, I never really would associate Teemo with high amounts of burst. With a single nuke (two, if you count Lichbane), he's not really bursty in any sense and most of his damage comes from autos. DFG I could see if you could drop a Shroom on them after the active goes off, but I still don't really see him as a 100-0 champ like Ahri can be.
On October 02 2013 05:59 Requizen wrote: I'm nowhere near an authority on AP Teemo, I've done it like twice, and then only in lanes I know I'd demolish.
Still, I never really would associate Teemo with high amounts of burst. With a single nuke (two, if you count Lichbane), he's not really bursty in any sense and most of his damage comes from autos. DFG I could see if you could drop a Shroom on them after the active goes off, but I still don't really see him as a 100-0 champ like Ahri can be.
I've done it a couple of times, and you can certainly burst down a single target with a DFG-AA-Q-AA-AA+ignite combo (or a Shroom+combo), though given the relative dearth of non-MS mobility (like Ahri's dashes), such a build relies on the enemy stepping on a Mushroom for you to catch up, or else ambushing them with the passive. At the 1 item timing (with a DFG), he becomes a major single target threat to targets without a major MR item with strong (conditional) pick potential.
I'll probably look into this abit more in my off-time. I agree with alot of what you've written about top lane Teemo.
Ahri's total AP ratio (for a single rotation with all her spells) hovers at a 2.86 AP ratio, while Teemo's entire ratio is 2.4 (+.3AP per AA, in addition to additional poison ticks per AA). Because of this, his actual AP burst ratio with additional AP is already pretty good. Lich Bane adds another .75 AP ratio every 2 seconds (or a burst rotation of 3.1AP +.3AP per additional AA), versus (2.55AP+.45 AP per additional AA). Nashors is better than Lich Bane if you expect to get more than 5 AAs in (and assuming only 1 Lich Bane Proc), which may make it worth it for an AP bruiser build, but for a pure AP burst build, Lich Bane (and DFG) are better. DFG amplifies Teemos Damage to 2.88+.36AP, with a significant nuke attached to it and more AP overall.
Again, further testing required. Will get back to this thread in a few weeks/a month.
On October 02 2013 06:14 Duvon wrote: Haunting Guise ASAP if you're planning on getting Liandry's anyway no?
It's a fair enough buy most of the time. Health/AP/MPen is never going to be bad, but depending on the situation you may not want it before your Nashor's/DC/BotRK/FMallet/etc.
I don't advocate blindly building any single item 100% of the time on Teemo. He's a variable champion who works well with a lot of things, and can change based on the matchup, jungle pressure, how your team is doing, etc.
On October 02 2013 12:58 ZataN wrote: The AP Bruiser and the Full AP builds are like the same build.... And you say you don't like AP teemo. Lol.
Full AP goes 21/9/0, gets DC early, and likely doesn't build a defensive item other than maybe Zhonya until later into the game.
As AP bruiser, I run 9/21/0 and after Nashor generally get Liandry's or GA, being much more defensive and survivable.
I dislike full AP because it means anything that looks your way kills you, more or less. It has a much higher damage potential, especially once you hit your Nashor's/DC timing.
If Tolkein is to be believed, it should also skip Nashor's in favor of straight DC and AP items.
Teemo is ARAM hell. I've gotten him what... the last 6 out of 11 games in ARAM? He's so strong with a hurricane and people really seem to have a problem jumping me in time before I blow everyone up. ;3
Overall good advices, the only thing I don't understand is why you never start with a ward, to me it seems like suicide, I'd really like to start with doran ring but it's pretty much impossible, you will die to ganks. I often start with boots 2 pots+ward or in matchups where they can trade with you, faerie 5 pots ward.
Here's my teemo experience :
I play full ap in diamond 1 running 21/9 but I never buy nashors. Ap teemo's strength comes from mushrooms, the aoe damage and the control they give is great . Basically if you play full AP you HAVE to use your shrooms correctly and your team HAS to play with them. If they commit to teamfights in open space where you hadn't time to setup shrooms, you will most likely lose.
The key to winning is just to be able to plant shroom forests around baron/dragon and force fights there, you will win these 100%. You'll also need to kill the enemy supports when he comes with pinks/oracle to destroy your precious shrooms, just stealth in a brush and wait for him to facecheck, with 1 shroom and auto Q auto he will be dead.
While this build might not be the easiest to play, it's insanely fun and will even sometimes makes teemo look overpowered, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing shrooms explode on 5 people when you have liandries+decent ap, also people "safe recalling" in brushes when they're low, *boom*.
Tbh i'd rate ap teemo mid/late game as very strong but his laning phase is really what's tricky, if you get ganked and your jungler is like meh teemo top i'll gank somewhere else you have a ton of chances to be heavily screwed because teemo needs to stay ahead and push his advantage. Once he gets behind he dies very quickly and doesn't have a lot of tools to outplay - the only one that I know of is shroom under your turret and bait a dive -.
Your jungler has to understand that 1v1 you'll be ahead but the lane can very quickly turn into a disaster for you if you get ganked, teemo doesn't have the best escape mechanics and he dies very fast early if stunned/slowed. Ask your jungler for counterganks, teemo should always win 2v2 because his direct lane opponent WILL be low life. Also when you pick teemo be prepared to be ganked, ALL junglers LOVE to gank teemo, when I pick him I get ganked like twice more often.
I don't agree that CDR is a bad stat on teemo, at least on full AP teemo it allows you to shroom more, you will probably have mana issues if you don't build grail though, I often build it if the opposing team is quite ap heavy. More shrooms = more map control + more chances to plant shrooms at places where skirmishes can happen, giving your team a large advantage in those even if you're on the other side of the map.
Funny trick : if you experience a lane swap and you are 1v2, you can go to lane and stealth there, you will be able to get full XP, they can't zone you if they don't see you ! :D
TL;dr my teemo build 21/9 AP (sometimes 30/0/0 if I know they can't harass back), hybrid reds, scaling ap blues (if the enemy laner is ad), armor yellows, flat ap quints. Haunting guise/sorc core, then buld whatever AP, turn guise into liandries, build grail if needed. Laning phase extremely important, try to be nice to your jungler and ask him for counterganks.
Thanks for the insight, I'll add it to the OP. As I said, I'm not the best AP Teemo player, generally preferring more defenses. I'll also add Ward openings, though I don't find them as necessary when running defensive masteries. If I know that they have a strong ganking jungler and I have to burn Flash early, I'll back immediately and buy wards, but usually I find that I can harass the opposing laner down enough that even a 2v1 from a gank isn't as dangerous as it would be otherwise.
I just think CDR is a good stat on any champion. Anything that lets you do what you do more often is good.
I'll also add that 1v2 trick to the OP, never thought of that! Probably quite dangerous, though, as a random pink ward in the lane brush means you die lol.
While the utility advantage of CDR is important in that you do plant more mushrooms (and that's difficult to quantify), in pure "burst" perspective (if you're looking for the dmgz), it's a relatively weak damage stat on Teemo all told because only 2 damage active spells, and one is conditional. His ratios are pretty good if you get a mushroom or multiple autoattacks in, however, but the AAs/Blinding Dart is single target (which does allow him to assassinate supports or squishies in roam/pick scenarioes quite readily, however). But in general, if you're looking for more damage, more AP/MPen is the way to go, not CDR. CDR is much more useful for map control, however, so it's not a weak stat, just a weak "Damage" Stat, so to speak, which is a clarification I should make. There's utility in getting CDR.
In contrast, other AP casters like Ahri have sustained damage that is much more greatly boosted by CDR as a stat.
So on AP Teemo are you maxing E or Q? I know AD Teemo goes E > W > Q, but from my experience laning against AP Teemo's (as Kayle in Gold-Plat games) Q max is significantly more dangerous compared to E. This is probably a little biased based on the fact that Kayle's damage is partially auto-based, but the E max Teemo lost every single trade while the Q max stayed even.
Is Q vs E subject to change based on the champ you lane against? So Q vs auto attack harassers/traders, and E vs people you can chase for a bit?
Q max: gains 180 damage and 1s of blind E max: gains 136 damage per hit (less on additional hits since I don't think poison stacks, just refreshes)
So based on that, E is always better if you hit more than once. But Q has higher range than your autos, so are there any specific champions (again, Kayle) that you'd want to max Q against because it's too dangerous to go in for autos or who can't trade without their autos?
Like you said, completely situational. Q gives more "burst" poke and is also a good choice if you're going to be trading with someone who can get autos on you that you can't avoid (like Xin charging you or Jax QEing you). E is generally better as long as you can get multiple autos off, and is also less of a manahog (obviously).
On October 03 2013 05:24 Requizen wrote: Like you said, completely situational. Q gives more "burst" poke and is also a good choice if you're going to be trading with someone who can get autos on you that you can't avoid (like Xin charging you or Jax QEing you). E is generally better as long as you can get multiple autos off, and is also less of a manahog (obviously).
Yep.
In mid lane for instance, Q max is likely to be more substantial, as it's far better in short trades against ranged champions with burst, or champions like Zed whom can close distances in a threatening manner. It gives you the ability to poke them out early, and the mana usage pre-6 of Q is pretty sustainable, especially if you have a Dorans Ring. Post-6, you'll start having to manage mana (without a blue buff), the more CDR you have especially, but otherwise Q max isn't the most mana intensive.
If you're up against, say, melee champions without threatening gapclosers, E is better if you can get multiple autos off, and is a staple of top lane, given the range of champions you'll face there.
on AD Teeto I typically max E>Q>W. sometimes a quick 2 points in Q before maxing E vs champions that auto attack and have a dash like xin or jax. I find the bonus burst from Q max second to be more effective than W max because you will be finishing botrk during that period of time anyway.
I really like 30-0-0 masteries for most lanes and hybrid reds, armor yellows, ap blues, ap quints, but some hard lanes require special mastery setups in order to go even or just not die.
yorick in particular is a lane that most people think counters teemo for some reason at my level(just made plat, so gold/plat area, I'm getting a lot of yorick counterpicks)
Vs yorick, if you go 30-0-0 masteries and the above runes, you will lose lane, and hard.
If you take 17-0-13 masteries, lifesteal/spellvamp and biscuteer/ward being the important ones in utility, then changing your rune setup to hybrid/armor/mr/lifesteal, and starting dorans blade and running teleport, you actually outsustain yorick and run him OOM. I typically recall once i have 900+ gold for a vamp scepter, wards and pots(opting to use teleport if the lane went bad or you got ganked). At this point yorick has probably farmed a tear but either hasn't recalled, or is at an exp disadvantage due to when he recalled. both situations are favorable allowing you to hit 6 safely and set up shop. proper kiting/bush control vs ghouls allows you to lose minimal life and eventually run yorick out of mana again. Teemo has all the kill potential in this lane 1v1 once cutlass and boots come into the picture.
I've been having a lot of success with dorans(+biscuit/fakeward)-->vamp-->cutlass-->boots(zerkers?)-->botrk then frozen mallet or hurricane depending on how big of an advantage i have. hurricane helps shove the lane relenetlessly vs opponents you've already curbstomped and demands a lot of attention from mid/jungle, giving your team a lot of breathing room, ideally allowing them to stop feeding. frozen mallet first gives you the kiting necessary to continue your dominance over champs that otherwise would outscale you, such as jax.
After you've completed the trifecta of botrk/hurricane/frozen mallet the game is usually decided and rarely goes much farther. either you've split pushed successfully enough to allow your team towers and dragons and barons(switching to pushing bottom lane, sending 4 top around the 20 minute mark) to snowball your team to victory, or you got caught and killed enough (orcounterpicked) for the enemy top laner to manage to 1v1 you, at which point ad teemo might as well /ff and afk.
I've toyed with several 4th items. bloodthirster, IE, Shiv, zephyr, phage-->trinity force(its OP), but I'm not really sure what's good at this point. wardens mail is always there if you're ever worried a fight might be close late game. zephyr seems to give just about everything teeto needs late game at a reasonable price, so I'd lean towards that as being solid in most situations.
The best part about s3 is that hurricane gave teemo a really strong 2 item teamfight timing. botrk + hurricane and then suddenly joining up for surprise 5v4 butsex(enemy top laner is trying to farm top and catch up) is the best.
I kinda like teemo as a counterpick to certain lanes. Not a huge of AP though. I have done stuff like (dblade)wits>blade vs some AP lanes for easy wins though(hi vlad).
I much prefer bruiser so that you can actually join in fights/peel/tank a bit if necessary though. The kiting power that a couple well placed shrooms along with blind & blade give you is really, really obnoxious.
But bruiser teemo should be played in a split-push comp. Teemo has never been a fantastic team-fighter and the reason why he is partly good for team fights as AP, is the amount of dedication some Teemo-players (from my PoV) put in their shroom settings. This allow you to control the fights alot more, because aside from Q and auto's you don't really do anything, but if you can bait people around in well-placed shrooms you melt them like chocolate.
I disagree Sponkz. Blade/Mallet(/Hurricane) Teemo is quite decent at teamfights, you get to play a mid line semi ADC since you pack the utility to screw with divers, good tankiness, and also good damage between a maxed E and BotRK.
@ItsFunToLose:
30/0/0 is quite hilarious, as against anyone without a gap closer you just lolol shit on their face, but I tend to prefer being tankier. Both are effective, I think.
About a 4th item, as I said I rather like GA in a lot of cases. If you're getting focused (which, let's face it, you're Teemo) it makes you even more annoying and people will curse your name.
Short of that, even though you're playing "AD Teemo" you're still mostly mixed damage, so consider Zhonya for both extra damage and maximum trolling with the active.
On October 29 2013 20:51 Sponkz wrote: But bruiser teemo should be played in a split-push comp. Teemo has never been a fantastic team-fighter and the reason why he is partly good for team fights as AP, is the amount of dedication some Teemo-players (from my PoV) put in their shroom settings. This allow you to control the fights alot more, because aside from Q and auto's you don't really do anything, but if you can bait people around in well-placed shrooms you melt them like chocolate.
ADC only really provide autos too. For the mid game it's respectable damage (so until the ADC gets like 4 major items). More importantly if you get caught out by a bruiser in the mid game and you don't have a tower to run back to, then won't you die? Can't shroom everywhere you're pushing.
I think I remember people doing Teemo APC in botlane during Trolls. How did that go?
Blade of the ruined+mallet makes you a good adc or what are you trying to imply here? Like sure, the %dmg from blade is decent against high health targets, but by no means makes you a threat, the same way a typical adc does. His peeling is mediocre; the only real good part about his kit is the blind, apart from that he's just a worse auto-attacker than an ADC. You seem to forget, that IF you decide to run teemo top, you need an extremely tanky front-line from your support and jungler (e.g Amumu/Leona or similar), because you're pretty much playing like pantheon (back-line peeling for your ADC), except you do way less damage.
@obesechicken13
Yeah, you forget the part where ADC's build multiplicative scaling items, that makes them terrifying late-game. Can't really compare ADC autos with teemo's autos. That's just absurd.
For the split-pushing part, the most common thing I've seen is taking outer+inner turret top and then you kindly rotate bot post-30 min. This allows your team to pressure dragon and baron respectively while still insuring that your team gets some sort of global gold from the towers you end up pushing. I've seen some Teemo's completely demolish bot-lane and get the inhibitor while his team lost baron-control and had to give it to the enemy (still very much worth it).
Blade of the ruined+mallet makes you a good adc or what are you trying to imply here? Like sure, the %dmg from blade is decent against high health targets, but by no means makes you a threat, the same way a typical adc does. His peeling is mediocre; the only real good part about his kit is the blind, apart from that he's just a worse auto-attacker than an ADC. You seem to forget, that IF you decide to run teemo top, you need an extremely tanky front-line from your support and jungler (e.g Amumu/Leona or similar), because you're pretty much playing like pantheon (back-line peeling for your ADC), except you do way less damage.
@obesechicken13
Yeah, you forget the part where ADC's build multiplicative scaling items, that makes them terrifying late-game. Can't really compare ADC autos with teemo's autos. That's just absurd.
For the split-pushing part, the most common thing I've seen is taking outer+inner turret top and then you kindly rotate bot post-30 min. This allows your team to pressure dragon and baron respectively while still insuring that your team gets some sort of global gold from the towers you end up pushing. I've seen some Teemo's completely demolish bot-lane and get the inhibitor while his team lost baron-control and had to give it to the enemy (still very much worth it).
Yeah, I'm aware Teemo's scaling into late is bad compared to ADC, but I'm mostly wondering if the blind lets him crush ADs bot enough.
If you're just getting the outer then you're in little danger since you're so close to turret and wards but as soon as you go for the inner turret that's where I'd kill Teemo whereas someone like Udyr or Shen might get away if ganked.
Well, I'm honestly not a veteran teemo-player, but the very few (we're talking a maximum of 5 during the entire span of season 3) bruiser teemo's i see, either deep-wards or shroom heavily around the blue buff (if purple side) or in every brush in upper jungle (if blue side) and only push heavily forward for sieging if their team is forcing objectives. It's suicide if you push relentlessly without a purpose in any given situation. Udyr/Shen can't get away, if they split-push like mad man when the enemy mid and jungler isn't showing themselves.
I said semi-ADC, since you have good (not great) autoattacks. Bruiser Teemo functions in the mid-line - BotRK is most effective on high-health targets where the on-hit kicks in, and with Shrooms, FMallet, and BotRK active he can mess with anyone trying to dive past the front line.
While he isn't a high-damage threat, he's disruptive, fairly resilient (assuming Mallet/Defensive masteries/maybe GA), and hard as hell to pin down without turning your whole focus onto him. AP Teemo is more adept if you want to carry games with damage, but Bruiser is by no means useless in a teamfight. He doesn't fill a role of carry or front line tank, he provides a target, he blinds marksmen, and he gives area control with shrooms.
Do you have any replays that could enlighten this method? Like, idk why but i keep seeing this little captain just standing there, throwing auto attacks which deal no damage to tanks (resists being the biggest factor here, if you're going 9/21/0 you'll only have either %arpen or %mpen not both and you're not building wits/lw/void/liandrys) with the only good thing being a 2,5 second blind every 8 seconds.
I generally don't run LoLReplay, but if I end up playing some solo queue I'll throw it up on stream.
Obviously you're not doing a lot of damage to late-game tanks with lots of both resists stacked on top of armor. That's the ADC's and certain APC's jobs, and something AP Teemo does well at. Bruiser Teemo works best against things he can kite and disrupt. Things like Udyr (who famously doesn't have a good late game anyway), Nasus (even if he Withers you, you should be able to kite well and survive while your ADC does their thing), or someone like Skarner.
On October 30 2013 05:10 Lightswarm wrote: i do kinda wanna see ad carries do primarily ap dmg. would be kinda interesting to play out rather than the typical BF upgrade/LW
Well if their primary damage was AP, they wouldn't be ad carries?
We already have Kog'Maw, Ezreal and Corki as a mixture of ap and AD and all 3 are really good tri-force users aswell, which is a contrast to the build path you're describing.
There are few champions who get AP ratios on their autos as part of their kits. Off the top of my head, it's Teemo, Kayle, TF, Ziggs, and Ori.
TF and Ziggs don't have it on every auto (Ziggs's being his passive and TF being E and PAC reset) so are unreliable. Also TF's range is booty and if he stays in range he dies instantly.
Ori's AP ratio on her autos is really small and requires buildup time on top of that.
Kayle's is tied to her Fury active. Late game it's pretty fuckright devastating in combination with her shred and nuke, but when it's on CD early game she sucks.
Teemo is really the only champ right now that can reliably build AP and fill the Marksman role. Not saying it's good to do so and put him in a duo lane so he can rush a DC or whatever, but from a mechanics standpoint he's the only real choice for it.
On topic: Lately I've been preferring Zhonya's first on AP Bruiser Teemo in nearly any situation where the opponent isn't pure AP. Nashor's is fantastic if I get fed and have a chance to build other AP, but by itself it's been wearing on me. Seeker's is just such a great item to have in most lane matchups and Hourglass makes you kind of a monster.
My current issue is that he doesn't really have a good straight MR item to build outside of Merc's. I often find myself just getting GA if I need MR. I never really buy Abyssal for some reason though I suppose it's probably a decent item on him.
The issue I have with Abyssal (and this is kind of nitpick) is that the MR reduction doesn't affect them when they hit shrooms on the other side of the map, and if you're poking with poison you have to remain in aura range for the best effect. Often if I'm against an AP champion I just get a lot of health in Liandry's and DRings instead.
I've been toying around with Wit's End on Teemo for the extra MR. Base +25MR and +5MR for every hit. And you get a bonus 42 AP damage on every hit. When auto-attacking it stacks up pretty fast and you get respectable MR. Combine this with some mag pen and points in E and it looks alright to me.
AD Teemo - I often go E>W>Q, a point in Q but not much else until late game. Mov.speed on Teemo is just the best. Keep the distance, wait for shrooms to hit in a good spot, rush in and finish the job. 30/0/0 masteries are probably insane on Teemo because of the AP his auto attacks deal. I need to try that out.
AP Teemo - Rush Liandrys Torment, then CDR, then Shroom it up with ap/mag pen
I usually do build Wit's on Tankmo, but if you're going AP Teemo you're paying quite a lot for AS. Which isn't a bad stat on him, by any means, but if I'm going AP damage oriented, it's rather sub optimal imo.
Yeah, AS on AP Teemo isn't really that necessary since Q, E and R do so much damage. I was thinking more of a hybrid build where you go full AD, but since Teemo has so much help from the E, building some mag pen + Wit's End could deal a lot of damage for a low cost (alongside the regular AD damage)
You should win early levels against fizz. Harass him as much as you can at level 1. The lane is tricky but should go in teemo's favour until fizz hits 6 and gets full life, it's up to you to be far ahead enough to be able to punish his stupidly safe allins later on. It's been like 1 year I haven't seen lane nunu so I can't comment.
You should win early levels against fizz. Harass him as much as you can at level 1. The lane is tricky but should go in teemo's favour until fizz hits 6 and gets full life, it's up to you to be far ahead enough to be able to punish his stupidly safe allins later on. It's been like 1 year I haven't seen lane nunu so I can't comment.
A good fizz will stack sustain out the wazzoo early game and just play safe and sit until he hits 3. Then he'll kill you repeatedly if you give him an inch. Teemo is in a difficult spot since he needs to keep pressure on to stop fizz controlling the flow of the lane, but that means he'll be very vulnerable to jungle ganks and not able to benefit much from his own.
Honestly, the best way I think of beating a fizz is just stacking pots and MR in the early game. If you have enough that he can't kill you outright, just pot back up. once you get to 6 you can shroom the bushes like mad and use them as a safe haven and with the added MR he won't be able to execute a combo on you successfully. Keep him occupied and stop him from roaming, then you've done your job.
on hits miss when blinded so Q is going to do about 10 damage if you blind Fizz on the incoming, unless he wants to use E to engage you you will out trade him massively, if he E's in to engage, just blind when you hear the seastone trident sound (it's a metallic sound) once again win the trade, then pummel him in the back as he tries to disengage. If he goes lichbane first and you've already established a cs lead you should be in the drives seat from this point forward.
On November 10 2013 22:55 Slusher wrote: on hits miss when blinded so Q is going to do about 10 damage if you blind Fizz on the incoming, unless he wants to use E to engage you you will out trade him massively, if he E's in to engage, just blind when you hear the seastone trident sound (it's a metallic sound) once again win the trade, then pummel him in the back as he tries to disengage. If he goes lichbane first and you've already established a cs lead you should be in the drives seat from this point forward.
and don't rush mr lol.
While Q applies on hit effects, it isn't on hit afaik. Also all of Fizz's damage is magic and blinds don't stop most forms of magic damage. They do block WW's Rs because coded as minions.
the damage is on Q is complete and utter garbage(it is literally 10 damage at rank 1 which is what you will face pre 6) if you don't get the auto attack from it(his Q is basically an empowered auto with a dash) his W is also empowered auto attacks, unless Fizz commits with E (pre 6) he has no chance to out trade teemo, and if he Does commit with E blind him when he goes for active W hits and you will turn the trade around, and he's already used his escape so you can pummel him in the back as he walks away in shame.
Fizz is a really strong champion and he can win this match up, but it is not a favored one if the Teemo knows how to play the match up.
On November 11 2013 05:47 Slusher wrote: the damage is on Q is complete and utter garbage if you don't get the auto attack from it(his Q is basically an empowered auto with a dash) his W is also empowered auto attacks, unless Fizz commits with E (pre 6) he has no chance to out trade teemo, and if he Does commit with E blind him when he goes for active W hits and you will turn the trade around, and he's already used his escape so you can pummel him in the back as he walks away in shame.
That may be true, but 10 damage is an understatement. None of Fizz's spell damage gets blocked.
On November 11 2013 05:49 Slusher wrote: Q is literally 10 damage + an auto, there is no understatement to be had.
His level 1 Q's auto and his next autos get blocked. That's fine. But most Fizz activate W before using Q. That means he at least gets the magic damage from W on his first Q for more than 10 damage. And your statement that on hit gets blocked by blinds is what I take issue with. I was wrong to state that none of Fizz's spell damage gets blocked. It does block his Q's AD ratio for 50-100 damage depending on Fizz's level.
Blind only mitigates the physical damage portion of an attack, including physical damage sourced from a physical on-hit effect. Other damage types and effects won't miss. See: On-hit effects.
Not all on hit effects get affected by blind.
I also doubt if it's possible to use your Q after seeing Fizz start to use Q, but before they've actually gone into the Q. You'd need insane reflexes to do that because if you Q too early, he can potentially E to dodge your Q and punish you for it. I'd have to see this in game.
it's possible in the same way it's possible to block fizz Q with Draven E, it's possible. you act like Teemos autos aren't doing enhanced damage also, except Teemo is getting the his ad in the mix also, bottom line without items, pre 6, Teemo wins all in trades and is ranged vs. melee so he can punish last hitting, it's not a favored match up for Fizz, that is all that is being discussed here.
On November 11 2013 06:25 Slusher wrote: it's possible in the same way it's possible to block fizz Q with Draven E, it's possible. you act like Teemos autos aren't doing enhanced damage also, except Teemo is getting the his ad in the mix also, bottom line without items, pre 6, Teemo wins all in trades and is ranged vs. melee so he can punish last hitting, it's not a favored match up for Fizz, that is all that is being discussed here.
I never said anything about Teemo's autos and whether they were enhanced.
I do agree though that Teemo can bully Fizz pre 6. Even said so at the top of the page. If that's all we're arguing then that's not in dispute.
teemo wins all lanes. he's the best. don't be a pussy. buy more damage.
Also, the reasoning for 30-0-0 is that in some matchups, you have the huge burden of securing a substantial HP lead, or risk dying to power spike level 2/3 all-ins. If you're only getting one or two autos in here or there, the difference between 30-0-0 with balls out hybrid/26 flat AP runes and 9-21-0 MRblues/MS quints can be 15-20 damage per auto. it's fucking monsterous.
On November 12 2013 07:39 krndandaman wrote: I would play teemo so much more if I knew for sure that my support would ward top for me in the beginning of the game. It's so hard to be aggressive yet be wary of ganks with no ward. With the ward he's pretty much unstoppable in nearly every matchup.
True. If my support wards for me and I can start doranblade or boots 4 pots my winrate goes up a ton. The problem with playing Teemo in solo queue is that most of the time your team thinks you're trolling and they won't help you at all, the jungler will ignore you even if a 2v2 is 100% going in your favour because your lane opponent is supposed to be low.
As a result a big part of playing Teemo in solo queue is trying to charm your teammates. Tell them you main teemo and you know what you're doing, ask for a ward by the support in the lobby and say that you will win the lane if you have one (ofc you will get flamed a lot if somehow you lose it). If you don't get a ward try to convince your jungler that their jungler will be top at lvl 3 after blue/red (which 90% of junglers do in solo queue against teemo) and that you will win the 2v2. I've clearly noticed an increase in my winrate by doing so but it's quite exhausting to ask this game every game and sometimes people will just give you the middle finger even if you ask nicely because "stfu u troll teemo" (gosh those 15 years old playing the game...)
An other alternative is just starting boots 2 pots +ward, which I often do, but in some matchups those 2 pots less change everything.
can someone pls make a list of all the melee champs that fucking destroy teemo I just want to make sure I don't pick my beloved teemo into bad situations pls
Teemo is mostly destroyed by junglers pre 6, i don't really even like to lane vs nasus bcs of that if there is a strong jungler present (that w slow vs a no dash champ). But i hate to lane vs Swain and don't really like to go vs aatrox even if in theory you should be able to deal with him thanks to your Q. Teemo doesn't seem to have many bad matchups in my experience
The short answer is: Melees who aren't entirely reliant on autoattacks and have gapclosers.
Pantheon is the worst offender. Riven is less annoying but still requires a lot of kiting. Wukong can and will fuck your day up if you don't remove him from lane before level 5. Darius is a shit if you aren't 100% careful, a single EQ can lose the lane. Malphite is like Wu where if he doesn't get bullied out he will just ignore you and then kill you. Akali will murder you twice.
I haven't played against an Irelia or Olaf in a long time but I can imagine that they have the capacity to be annoying. Top Zac is also likely a pain but I haven't seen one in months. I can't comment on these.
Cho and Nasus have the capacity to just ignore you and sustain if you let them keep up, but they should never really be able to kill you if you aren't standing in ruptures/close enough to get caught out with Wither.
The real threats are ranged champions. Jayce (dunno recently, but before nerfs it was true), Elise, etc.
Now that I've said that, aside from Panth, Jayce, Elise, and a few others, all the lanes are pretty winnable if you play right. You lose to a lot of champions when they hit 6 (Malph/Wu/Akali are the big ones), but you have massive advantages over them beforehand if you play smart. You may be forced into buying defenses (either Seeker's if you want to be AP or go full tank), but that's acceptable.
Jayce isn't that OP monster he was before, haven't seen him as a huge threat anymore. Don't see him that much either. Panth can be a pain, but as time goes on you should start to overtake him if you dont die early on, with him you are less pressured to make plays early on either way so start with cloth and pray. As you hit 6 if you are able to keep him in lane I can't see him having a huge advantage anymore if you didn't fall too far behind and if he starts roaming and doesnt get a quadra on his first flight to bot you will start stacking up really quickly. Riven is another story, she seems to be able to take your punishment not too harshly with her spammable shield and after 6 your main hope is getting her to step on every shroom which doesn't work too well if she is paying attention. Wu doesn't even really seem to be that big of a deal, his lack of sustain just lets you harass him and the lack of proper CC for such a long time makes escaping ganks (the only big threat in my mind vs him pre 6 when you dont have a new ward available so often) pretty easy. Haven't seen Darius but he seems to be my big scare if I blindpick Teemo. My main pick in the past has been Pantheon and the thing that stands out if I picked him vs a Teemo was that if i got a kill or forced him out of the lane really early there was no coming back, but the only times I could actually get that far ahead was if the teemo started with idiotic items or just misplayed horribly. Going even with a Teemo just becomes a death sentence if you start roaming and that is your main strenght.
Not sure whether on hit or ap is the way to go vs Teemo.
On hit lets you get wits end first which, once you get it is really strong. MR, mpen, aspd, on hit magic damage that goes through blinds are all good things against Teemo. On hit leads to really good deeps late game too and you can still get some CDR with lucidity boots.
Then AP lets you get CDR, mostly useful for the late game or if you're using your Q on cooldown and so get more Q's than Teemo. AP helps you to heal more but I'm guessing it'd be too mana intensive to do that a lot. Your E also hits harder, especially once you get Nashors.
If you get a pink ward, and put it down when you don't know where his shrooms are, you'll never step into Teemo's shrooms. But your ult is still useful for you. Pre-6 you lose to Teemo since his blind is strong. Hug the brush. Post 6 your ult lasts for longer than his level 1 blind. Since your fury's damage and wits end goes through blind you'll also be hurt less by the blind than champions that build AD. Finally, late game Kayle's E ratio is .1 higher than Teemo's which may not seem like a lot, but that's 10 damage per auto per 100 AP. If you have 400 AP that's 40 damage per auto lost.
imo Kayle's decent vs Teemo but by no means a counter.
On November 13 2013 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote: I've played the Kayle vs Teemo matchup a lot.
Not sure whether on hit or ap is the way to go vs Teemo.
On hit lets you get wits end first which, once you get it is really strong. MR, mpen, aspd, on hit magic damage that goes through blinds are all good things against Teemo. On hit leads to really good deeps late game too and you can still get some CDR with lucidity boots.
Then AP lets you get CDR, mostly useful for the late game or if you're using your Q on cooldown and so get more Q's than Teemo. AP helps you to heal more but I'm guessing it'd be too mana intensive to do that a lot. Your E also hits harder, especially once you get Nashors.
If you get a pink ward, and put it down when you don't know where his shrooms are, you'll never step into Teemo's shrooms. But your ult is still useful for you. Pre-6 you lose to Teemo since his blind is strong. Hug the brush. Post 6 your ult lasts for longer than his level 1 blind. Since your fury's damage and wits end goes through blind you'll also be hurt less by the blind than champions that build AD. Finally, late game Kayle's E ratio is .1 higher than Teemo's which may not seem like a lot, but that's 10 damage per auto per 100 AP. If you have 400 AP that's 40 damage per auto lost.
imo Kayle's decent vs Teemo but by no means a counter.
Or Kayle finishes Lichbane and two-shots Teemo. Building Wit's is shooting yourself in the foot damage-wise.
If Teemo maxes E Kayle out-trades him with her Q + E combo because she shreds his MR, if Teemo maxes Q he can trade because he cuts the AD part of her E off for longer. I think Teemo's Q is also slightly longer range than Kayle's Q, so if he's fast Teemo can run in shoot it off and get out. With her ult Kayle just wins though. If you can get her to walk on a shroom then you can get away from her and possibly kill her, but otherwise you aren't winning that in an even matchup.
Panth, wukong, malphite(AP), elise, jayce. in that order. TF mid is also a soft counter to splitpush teemo.
Don't pick teemo when TF is already locked for the enemy team. It's almost worse than a pantheon counterpick. Probably half of my teemo losses are from twisted fate mid ruining my life.
bad pantheons win. once malphite gets chalice, you lose. wukong kills you whenever his ult is up.
cloth 5 is a must vs pantheon and wukong. i'd consider taking teleport vs pantheon. if you're able to kill pantheon he fucked up badly and ignite isn't going to be the game changer. try to not die early, use teleport if you can gain an advantage that creates a window where you can farm and zone him out. (both players out of pots/flask and low health. recall+teleport back and you have at least 1-2 waves of freefarm, more if he doesn't back immediately.) and once you complete seekers/tabi/vamp you can start pushing him around.
vs ridiculously ganky junglers (lee/j4...) start 17-0-13 and grab explorer ward+biscuit. you can go dorans blade and still have a pot/ward. unless you saw jungler gank bottom/mid and know they will be delayed, place around 2:30 in river and play safe from 3:30-4:00. it's rare to get ganked after that, but before your first back, where you can start warding yourself.
Kayle loses to teemo from my experience, but I'm sure i've only played bad kayles. punish her when her E is down, Qauto if she Q's to mitigate the E damage that is coming your way. I'm pretty sure teemo Q has more range, but i'd almost always save it to play reactionary to any Q's she does manage to throw. you can almost always bait out her E form and run before getting into her Q range. she has to use it to cs, or eat harass in melee. After level 6, strategic placement of in-lane shrooms are more important than river/brush wardhax shrooms. buy wards, use all shrooms in lane on the sides of creep waves. if you can force her to respect their placement, it minimizes her ability to chase you if you do get Q'd. kayle does have quite a powerspike once they finish nashors that you have to be careful about if you are going AD.
malph isn't that strong if you go for a lifesteal build but a gank is a free kill and he snowballs hard lol I didn think of wukong, irelia used to be good but that was vs everyone pre nerfs lol.
The only thing that gives teemo an ability to kite is movespeed. malphite steals movespeed. he doesn't just slow you, he moves faster the faster you were when it hits. If the enemy jungler comes top ever, you die.
Malphite is also one of the best low gold scaling tank/initiates in the game, so even if you dunk him in lane, he still bends your backline over and puts it in their butt. your split push is that much worse off if your team can't ever stop the 0-5 30 cs malphite from (flash) ult initiating 5v4.
malphite starts mantle + 2 pots, flash teleport or flash ignite. it's highly unlikely you shove him out of lane before he's able to farm up the rest of chalice. once he gets chalice + ward/pots, you can't really duel him anymore. he spams Q, your trades get shielded. he wins a slow war of attrition and eventually earns his right to farm unmolested. if he has ignite, his jungler doesn't even have to kill you early, if he shows up just once, malphite usually gets to level 6 without being in too bad of shape, and just allins teemo with ignite.
If malphite is jungling it's just as bad. malphite's Q is a very strong counter to teemo.
I don't understand why anybody would play teemo any way but AP. If you want to play a moderate range BotrK top then why not play Vayne for utility and AD scaling for optimum efficiency? I have been playing AP teemo as my main for a while now and I guess the big thing I have not seen mentioned here that made a difference in my play is that while my build is pretty set in stone (sorc boots, hourglass, nashtor's, deathcap, void staff, liandry's) the build path is VERY game dependent. I can tell you right now why people get frustrated with Nashtor's. It is not good in lane.
Ap teemo's laning is all about abusing the amazing ratio on E. With spellsword it is .75 per auto if you get full damage, higher than any of orianna's abilities including her ult. Since consistently applying the dot between CS is a strong laning tactic you must maximize AP efficiency in your purchases. Attack speed becomes better in team fights when constant damage output becomes the goal. The ratio on teemo's E in team fights is effectively...
.3 (on hit) + .1 (first tick of dot) + .05 (spellsword) +.15 (nashtors) = .6 ratio on hit/.9 for full duration
The difference in team fights between .45 and (.6x1.5) is huge but if you buy it too early you will find yourself out gunned in poke combat where attack speed is not important. Timing the investment in AS is crucial to your success.
When I look at these numbers, even apart from shrooms and blinding dart, I am amazed more pros don't hold him in their kit. MR is far harder to itemize than armor (late game people tend to half about half as much MR as armor) and less useful in team fights for most top laners. Once oracles is gone and people lose some of their prejudice I suspect a lot more people will be seeing teemo my way, even if the new season brings very little actual change to his game.
Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
I'm not saying teemo is bad. I love da teeto! I just take issue with tankmo and onhitmo because, while they do work, I do not think they are the best in the game at anything. If you are just looking for fun that is fine but in ranked play winning comes first. On the other hand I feel AP teemo is massively undervalued and is the best AP marksman in the game, a role strong enough to see worlds level play imo.
The whole point of my vayne example was to point out that these builds do not amplify teemo's strengths but instead sacrifice many of them to accommodate the meta.
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
I'm not saying teemo is bad. I love da teeto! I just take issue with tankmo and onhitmo because, while they do work, I do not think they are the best in the game at anything. If you are just looking for fun that is fine but in ranked play winning comes first. On the other hand I feel AP teemo is massively undervalued and is the best AP marksman in the game, a role strong enough to see worlds level play imo.
The whole point of my vayne example was to point out that these builds do not amplify teemo's strengths but instead sacrifice many of them to accommodate the meta.
Teemo's strengths are from your perspective. People doing on hit builds are trying him on hit because his kit also fits an on hit style.
He's not only competing with Kayle for best AP autoattacker but he's also probably undisputedly the best on hit champion.
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
AP Teemo isn't gimmicky at all, playing ap is way better for teamfights/zone control than ad which is more about splitpushing/dueling. I've never had any problems with malphite, yes as ap teemo you buy more pots than as ad but if you have a matchup like this where you get harassed a bit you can always pick up a doran blade (+pots - always). When malph will come to Q you will throw on him 3x the damage he does to you... and Q off cooldown for him is free harass for you.
The malph matchup is such a bad example of ad teemos superior laning phase because malphite wants to buy armor not mr, so you're better going ap against him. Just get some health with haunting guise, a doran blade, pots and you will win if you avoid ganks.
I am so annoyed at this champion. Teemo is like the old Eve - really annoying, but also really weak (IMO). Every time I see someone pick him I lose the game.
It's as if the goal of the Teemo player is not to win - it is to annoy people. If you really want to counterpick, play Kennen or Vlad.
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
ad teemo is gimicky imo ap teemo is in many situations really good. Yes there are some hard counters(Kennen, swain and some others)
You can go some "lifesteal" by buying 1-2 dorans. Personally I play teemo a little bit different then the main teemo player in europe (fullon morning) by going a more auto attack build with going nashors and a couple of dorans blades in the start. Probably because im an AD carry player it is more natural for me to play him like this. Cooldown reduction is my most important stat aswell. I usually go morello and nashors to get manaregen and the 40% cdr (because I will not be able to get the blue buff)
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
ad teemo is gimicky imo ap teemo is in many situations really good. Yes there are some hard counters(Kennen, swain and some others)
You can go some "lifesteal" by buying 1-2 dorans. Personally I play teemo a little bit different then the main teemo player in europe (fullon morning) by going a more auto attack build with going nashors and a couple of dorans blades in the start. Probably because im an AD carry player it is more natural for me to play him like this. Cooldown reduction is my most important stat aswell. I usually go morello and nashors to get manaregen and the 40% cdr (because I will not be able to get the blue buff)
You should stop worrying about hard counters, at least with Teemo. Even if Kennen and Swain hard countered Teemo, you'd rarely ever see a good Kennen or Swain that could counterpick you. It'd be like worrying about Top lane Sivir or Top Lane Leblanc destroying you as Teemo. Swain and Kennen vs Teemo might happen once in 50 games. So few times, it could be said to be trivial. Even when they do happen, no matchups on lolking have a greater than 60% win rate. That means even when they happen, you'll still have like a 40%+ chance of winning.
Even if it was true that you got hard countered by Kennen and this were common knowledge among the LoL community like Teemo countering Tryn, I've seen Tryn's destroy Teemo. Voyboy does it on youtube. Even if this were common knowledge, most of the time you'd just face a shit Kennen who might win lane and will spend the rest of the game charging into your team without Zhonyas.
Just because people win by being the superior player, does not mean that you cannot talk about hard/soft-counters. Otherwise, ban/pick phase would be near useless, because you could pick 5 random champions and not give 2 shits about the enemy's picks.
On November 25 2013 17:49 Sponkz wrote: Just because people win by being the superior player, does not mean that you cannot talk about hard/soft-counters. Otherwise, ban/pick phase would be near useless, because you could pick 5 random champions and not give 2 shits about the enemy's picks.
Ban phase is pretty meaningless for us in solo queue.
You ban the overpowered champions with a clearly high win rate and what you don't want to deal with. Even if it didn't exist the game would be balanced for low level play. We'd just see more Blitzcranks and Threshes lol.
I don't know why you're talking about picking 5 random champions. People play what they're good with. The pick phase is ordered and lets the team create a coherent comp.
High level, bans and picks have more strategic depth to them and change the flow of games.
I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
On November 25 2013 20:09 Sponkz wrote: I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
Your conclusions don't make sense. Any champion can beat anyone, that's true. You should play who you're good at instead of picking random. I never said you should pick random.
If bans were just for comfort zones I wouldn't be seeing Kassadin Nidalee Blitz Thresh bans every game.
kassadin blitz nidalee thresh all make people very uncomfortable because of how hard they punish mistakes and people dont want to have to worry that much about that
also lol@obesechicken trying to tell a former #1 EUW challenger (if on points and not mmr) that counterpicks dont matter because you can outplay
although agree with this statement to some extent the better you get the more they matter
and then you also misinterpret sponkz point, which was that you're acting as there is never any point discussing what champion is good or bad vs X because anyone can beat anyone which is a retarded argument
On November 26 2013 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: kassadin blitz nidalee thresh all make people very uncomfortable because of how hard they punish mistakes and people dont want to have to worry that much about that
also lol@obesechicken trying to tell a former #1 EUW challenger (if on points and not mmr) that counterpicks dont matter because you can outplay
although agree with this statement to some extent the better you get the more they matter
and then you also misinterpret sponkz point, which was that you're acting as there is never any point discussing what champion is good or bad vs X because anyone can beat anyone which is a retarded argument
On November 25 2013 20:09 Sponkz wrote: I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
Your conclusions don't make sense. Any champion can beat anyone, that's true. You should play who you're good at instead of picking random. I never said you should pick random.
If bans were just for comfort zones I wouldn't be seeing Kassadin Nidalee Blitz Thresh bans every game.
? You are pretty much proving his point. Few if any soloq botlanes are confident going against Blitz even if Pros don't have a problem countering him. So because almost everyone hates playing against blitz and no one as first pick takes support he is usually banned. Same for thresh basically.
Nidalee and Kassadin are another case, notice that if the first pick is going mid he'll often leave kassa open if he is confident in playing a counter to him. If on the other hand the guy doing the bans is going to be adc/jungle/top he'll almost certainly ban kassa, simply because you don't have the confidence in random mid lane guys to either counter him or ward up properly to pull the teeth from his roaming.
Any champion can beat anyone is standard feelgood bullshit. Any champion in the hands of a significantly more skilled player can win even unfavorable matchups might be more correct. Your forgetting the fact that the matchmaking system tries its very best to make sure such gaps in skill don't enter the game though. So all things being normal (not a smurfing pro or a ebay boosted player) your opponent will roughly be in the same class as you.
That is the entire point why we discuss favorable matchups here, because in about 70% of your games you will be within the skill bracket where favorable and unfavorable can make a difference.
On November 25 2013 20:09 Sponkz wrote: I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
Your conclusions don't make sense. Any champion can beat anyone, that's true. You should play who you're good at instead of picking random. I never said you should pick random.
If bans were just for comfort zones I wouldn't be seeing Kassadin Nidalee Blitz Thresh bans every game.
? You are pretty much proving his point. Few if any soloq botlanes are confident going against Blitz even if Pros don't have a problem countering him. So because almost everyone hates playing against blitz and no one as first pick takes support he is usually banned. Same for thresh basically.
Nidalee and Kassadin are another case, notice that if the first pick is going mid he'll often leave kassa open if he is confident in playing a counter to him. If on the other hand the guy doing the bans is going to be adc/jungle/top he'll almost certainly ban kassa, simply because you don't have the confidence in random mid lane guys to either counter him or ward up properly to pull the teeth from his roaming.
Any champion can beat anyone is standard feelgood bullshit. Any champion in the hands of a significantly more skilled player can win even unfavorable matchups might be more correct. Your forgetting the fact that the matchmaking system tries its very best to make sure such gaps in skill don't enter the game though. So all things being normal (not a smurfing pro or a ebay boosted player) your opponent will roughly be in the same class as you.
That is the entire point why we discuss favorable matchups here, because in about 70% of your games you will be within the skill bracket where favorable and unfavorable can make a difference.
TL GD recently just had a phase where we were talking about how playing one champion was better for improving than playing multiple champions and trying to counterpick. You get less variables to worry about.
Now you guys are telling me that you'll win 70% of your games if you don't stick to one champion and just counterpick.
Maybe you are favored to beat a Silver 1 Teemo playing Teemo for the first time in 50 games and for the 3rd time in his career if you're playing Tryndamere as a Silver 1 playing Tryn for your 40th game in the past 50.
I agree, that you should focus on 1 champion if you can, but you shouldn't blindly pick it, if the match-up heavily favors your opponent. You're just gonna rely on your opponent being really bad, which is a bad assumption and causes bad habits. Have respect for your opponent and always assume that he/she is of an equal skill-level as you and then pick your preferred champion.
The common consensus was that you should stick to 1 role if possible (top, mid etc.) and a maximum of 5 chars within that role. Maybe 2 other champions (1 support, 1 jungle) for obstinate teammates in picks and bans
On November 26 2013 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: kassadin blitz nidalee thresh all make people very uncomfortable because of how hard they punish mistakes and people dont want to have to worry that much about that
also lol@obesechicken trying to tell a former #1 EUW challenger (if on points and not mmr) that counterpicks dont matter because you can outplay
although agree with this statement to some extent the better you get the more they matter
and then you also misinterpret sponkz point, which was that you're acting as there is never any point discussing what champion is good or bad vs X because anyone can beat anyone which is a retarded argument
Lol, I can't see borders on TL discussions.
you shouldn't need to the fact should have been irrelevant to the discussion but you your argument was based on him being silver 5 and even then it doesnt make too much sense when discussing in a champ thread specifiically
On November 26 2013 08:12 Tula wrote: The common consensus was that you should stick to 1 role if possible (top, mid etc.) and a maximum of 5 chars within that role. Maybe 2 other champions (1 support, 1 jungle) for obstinate teammates in picks and bans
That makes sense. If you're versed in a number of roles in one lane I can see counterpicking being more important. Then there's people like Boxbox who only play one champion but I guess they're the exception. I've been focusing on trying to have one champion for each role now except I have two junglers. Sejuani for when the team needs a tank and Rengar otherwise and I feel that's helped. So I can see your point here. I don't know if I'll have time to diversify my tops though.
This was one of the most civilized discussions I've had on TL in a long time. If anyone wants to continue we can make another thread. We've gotten off topic from Teemo counters.
On November 26 2013 08:12 Tula wrote: The common consensus was that you should stick to 1 role if possible (top, mid etc.) and a maximum of 5 chars within that role. Maybe 2 other champions (1 support, 1 jungle) for obstinate teammates in picks and bans
That makes sense. If you're versed in a number of roles in one lane I can see counterpicking being more important. Then there's people like Boxbox who only play one champion but I guess they're the exception. I've been focusing on trying to have one champion for each role now except I have two junglers. Sejuani for when the team needs a tank and Rengar otherwise and I feel that's helped. So I can see your point here. I don't know if I'll have time to diversify my tops though.
This was one of the most civilized discussions I've had on TL in a long time. If anyone wants to continue we can make another thread. We've gotten off topic from Teemo counters.
I actually think boxbox is the norm. Top level players troll a lot but if you had them get serious and play for the absolute best chance of winning their pools would be 2-3 champs just like boxbox (lee sin/riven), sirhcez (nasus/singed) and all the other "gimmicky" top tier players. The idea that players should be good at all roles and have huge champ pools is probably the most toxic advice steadily streaming out of top tier players. Competent at all roles is all you need as far as diversity is concerned, 1-2 champs is realistic for getting to D1 for most players.
Can we stop this pointless debate which has nothing to do in our beloved teemo thread ? Lets talk 3.14 Teemo.
I feel he is quite decent in solo queue right now because nobody fucking wards because people are still used to supports spamming wards. Guess what they can't anymore ! Teemo brings great map control/vision with shrooms and since oracles are gone and nobody buys pinks/reveal trinket : shrooms are even more annoying.
Teemo doesn't really need to start with a ward anymore thanks to the ward trinket, allowing him to go boots 4 pots or dblade 1 pots depending on the matchup. I tried a bit of everything and I've had way more success mid because it allows him to control the map/dragon, also dblade start against a lot of mid can be abused, auto the minions to get a faster level 2 and then just stand behind him and his minions.
I ran mostly 30/0/0, ap quints, flat ap blues, armor yellows, hybrid pen reds E poison procs the weaving thing each tick taking the "bullyness" to a whole other level. Of course he's still squishy as fuck and has very few room for errors.
On November 26 2013 08:12 Tula wrote: The common consensus was that you should stick to 1 role if possible (top, mid etc.) and a maximum of 5 chars within that role. Maybe 2 other champions (1 support, 1 jungle) for obstinate teammates in picks and bans
That makes sense. If you're versed in a number of roles in one lane I can see counterpicking being more important. Then there's people like Boxbox who only play one champion but I guess they're the exception. I've been focusing on trying to have one champion for each role now except I have two junglers. Sejuani for when the team needs a tank and Rengar otherwise and I feel that's helped. So I can see your point here. I don't know if I'll have time to diversify my tops though.
This was one of the most civilized discussions I've had on TL in a long time. If anyone wants to continue we can make another thread. We've gotten off topic from Teemo counters.
You should create it, you were the most confused person in this discussion xD <3
On November 26 2013 22:24 RouaF wrote: Can we stop this pointless debate which has nothing to do in our beloved teemo thread ? Lets talk 3.14 Teemo.
I feel he is quite decent in solo queue right now because nobody fucking wards because people are still used to supports spamming wards. Guess what they can't anymore ! Teemo brings great map control/vision with shrooms and since oracles are gone and nobody buys pinks/reveal trinket : shrooms are even more annoying.
Teemo doesn't really need to start with a ward anymore thanks to the ward trinket, allowing him to go boots 4 pots or dblade 1 pots depending on the matchup. I tried a bit of everything and I've had way more success mid because it allows him to control the map/dragon, also dblade start against a lot of mid can be abused, auto the minions to get a faster level 2 and then just stand behind him and his minions.
I ran mostly 30/0/0, ap quints, flat ap blues, armor yellows, hybrid pen reds E poison procs the weaving thing each tick taking the "bullyness" to a whole other level. Of course he's still squishy as fuck and has very few room for errors.
If you want an abusive lane bully start why would you go dblade and not dring? Dblade offers more sustain, but -- unless it changed in the last patch -- dring gives you more damage on autos than dblade (assuming E start). You lose the on-hit hp, but you get to buy an extra potion, and if you're bullying then the added damage on Q will matter too.
On November 27 2013 14:50 obesechicken13 wrote: Oh shit. No oracles means you're basically top tier again huh?
Gotta get on that AP Teemo again.
Top tier is questionable but viable for sure. There were two things holding AP teemo back in season 3, his weak early game and shrooms having limited viability when your opponent is winning (see: spamming oracles). The trinket and new masteries really help his early game a lot and while people do use red trinket and pink wards at my level, that only works well when pushing in lane. I have updated my guide on lolking (summoner name: QFT) but I'm not sure if I am allowed to link it here
do you all go nashors on teemo? if not, how much CD do you usually end up with and what CD items do you buy?
I started going away from it because prolly the best eu teemo(fullon morning) doesnt do it going for straight ap is just crazy high burst + I also dont start dorans blade that much anymore due to it getting nerfed in s4.
wow just played a teemo vs vlad ranked, vlad beat me in lane. He got first tower and was 6/4 me 4/6. Alot of times we ended up trading kills. Similar CS.
Usually a teemo/vlad lane is supposed to be early domination + possible 50+ cs advantage for teemo but after a certain point (prolly lvl 9 vlad mainly) he will start dominating and most likely killing you
but late game shrooms are so damn OP. 900 dmg shrooms with no oracles/limited pinks is ridiculous. I also went twin shadows so if anyone landed on a shroom it was an easy pick (especially with a morgana on my team). Teemo is just so good for jungle control.
agreed there but I still think that a huge part of teemos strength is people getting used to oracles lense, so many people dont know that its basically an oracle for 10s so if you would get several of them you prolly can kindof have oracles for ~50% of the time up which counteracts a lot of teemos strength.
Is Jayce considered a hard counter to Teemo? One of the my games as Teemo I had to face a Jayce and I wrecked him so hard by just dodging his EQ combo every time he tried it.
On November 29 2013 10:52 LightningStrike wrote: Is Jayce considered a hard counter to Teemo? One of the my games as Teemo I had to face a Jayce and I wrecked him so hard by just dodging his EQ combo every time he tried it.
Jayce falls into the same category as Nasus, Vladimir, Singed and a number of others. These are people that if you give teemo a small advantage he dumpsters them but if they get ahead they dumpster you. A lot of super high scaling top laners like teemo have this issue (Jax vs Renekton for example) but are still good picks with competent jungling.
I feel this champ does not provide as much to a teamfight as the champs he is only laning against. Its as if people pick teemo to win lane so they can convice themselves that it was them who carried the game or are not to blame in the case of a loss, this is of course, unless they picked teemo to troll which can be seen as the same thing I suppose.
That being said, I like the champion, hes a funny little guy.
not sure if you ever saw a good teemo but teemos strongest part is his post lvl 16. His shrooms and blind gives a lot of thread later on, he also is one of the few toplaners who beat ad carries 1v1 (or at least trade 1 for 1)
On November 30 2013 10:33 paddyz wrote: I feel this champ does not provide as much to a teamfight as the champs he is only laning against. Its as if people pick teemo to win lane so they can convice themselves that it was them who carried the game or are not to blame in the case of a loss, this is of course, unless they picked teemo to troll which can be seen as the same thing I suppose.
That being said, I like the champion, hes a funny little guy.
On November 30 2013 10:41 Ente wrote: not sure if you ever saw a good teemo but teemos strongest part is his post lvl 16. His shrooms and blind gives a lot of thread later on, he also is one of the few toplaners who beat ad carries 1v1 (or at least trade 1 for 1)
hard countered by garen with warmogs or spirit visage walking around cleaing all shroms and regenning up
pretty sure teemo is at his strongest at level 1. AP teemo is bad because he only feels strong once you're level 16 with 5 items.
teemos lvl 1 is actually really bad, lvl 3-5 would be a better peak time. And even if you only have 300-400 ap liandry's your shrooms still hurt a lot lategame
pretty sure teemo is at his strongest at level 1. AP teemo is bad because he only feels strong once you're level 16 with 5 items.
teemos lvl 1 is actually really bad, lvl 3-5 would be a better peak time. And even if you only have 300-400 ap liandry's your shrooms still hurt a lot lategame
hard countered by garen with warmogs or spirit visage walking around cleaing all shroms and regenning up
I have my doubts anything is countered by garen :D
I personally dont rush liandries and sometimes dont get it/get it very late its just that you are pretty much limited to only the shroom damage which is high but your q and e damage is really low with liandries. But yea morello/liandry or deatchcap is both threatening :D
On November 30 2013 10:33 paddyz wrote: I feel this champ does not provide as much to a teamfight as the champs he is only laning against. Its as if people pick teemo to win lane so they can convice themselves that it was them who carried the game or are not to blame in the case of a loss, this is of course, unless they picked teemo to troll which can be seen as the same thing I suppose.
That being said, I like the champion, hes a funny little guy.
Uhhh Teemo is one of the strongest team fighters (against everything but a poke comp, at least); you've just never seen a good Teemo...which makes sense, because I'm pretty sure I've never seen another good Teemo.
On November 30 2013 10:33 paddyz wrote: I feel this champ does not provide as much to a teamfight as the champs he is only laning against. Its as if people pick teemo to win lane so they can convice themselves that it was them who carried the game or are not to blame in the case of a loss, this is of course, unless they picked teemo to troll which can be seen as the same thing I suppose.
That being said, I like the champion, hes a funny little guy.
Uhhh Teemo is one of the strongest team fighters (against everything but a poke comp, at least); you've just never seen a good Teemo...which makes sense, because I'm pretty sure I've never seen another good Teemo.
Teemo is one of the strongest team fighters, but there are no good Teemo's to show this? What kind of statement is that lol?
On November 30 2013 10:33 paddyz wrote: I feel this champ does not provide as much to a teamfight as the champs he is only laning against. Its as if people pick teemo to win lane so they can convice themselves that it was them who carried the game or are not to blame in the case of a loss, this is of course, unless they picked teemo to troll which can be seen as the same thing I suppose.
That being said, I like the champion, hes a funny little guy.
Uhhh Teemo is one of the strongest team fighters (against everything but a poke comp, at least); you've just never seen a good Teemo...which makes sense, because I'm pretty sure I've never seen another good Teemo.
Teemo is one of the strongest team fighters, but there are no good Teemo's to show this? What kind of statement is that lol?
Of course. He's a rare pick and he's never picked in pro matches, and when he is picked he's picked for his laning and his split pushing--people don't really even try to understand how to play Teemo in team fights. He makes it impossible for the other team to initiate and is one of the best peelers when it is his team that is initiating.
k because i'm a horrible person and i've been spamming normals with teemo
i would like to get a sanity check on my shrooming philosophy here to make sure i'm doing it correctly
also this guide doesn't have a shrooming guide so meh
basically since i'm a support main i have the tendency to use shrooms sorta like wards - wards that chunk people
so...is this correct?
-if even: shroom choke points around objectives/river, few shrooms directly on objectives -if behind: shroom warding points/chokepoints in own jungle -if ahead: shroom warding points/chokepoints in enemy jungle -whenever: shroom random bushes for recall delay or finishing off low health champs -never tightly cluster shrooms - waste of shrooming, the first shroom with liandry's always chunks them the hardest anyway -try to keep 1 shroom on you to place in a teamfight if your teammates are dumb enough to engage with no shrooms -if possible use the shroom snare to set up a pick -try to get teamfights after chunking squishies down
just that i keep seeing people like put 30 shrooms in top lane or like their entire shroom load around baron or dragon and i think that's kind of a waste
I always try to keep a shroom on me, to put down if I get jumped. There are many places not in brushes that are good to shroom, since they are so unexpected there, run away/gank paths which are just as telling as brushes.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kDKXeQh.jpg)
