On November 13 2013 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote: I've played the Kayle vs Teemo matchup a lot.
Not sure whether on hit or ap is the way to go vs Teemo.
On hit lets you get wits end first which, once you get it is really strong. MR, mpen, aspd, on hit magic damage that goes through blinds are all good things against Teemo. On hit leads to really good deeps late game too and you can still get some CDR with lucidity boots.
Then AP lets you get CDR, mostly useful for the late game or if you're using your Q on cooldown and so get more Q's than Teemo. AP helps you to heal more but I'm guessing it'd be too mana intensive to do that a lot. Your E also hits harder, especially once you get Nashors.
If you get a pink ward, and put it down when you don't know where his shrooms are, you'll never step into Teemo's shrooms. But your ult is still useful for you. Pre-6 you lose to Teemo since his blind is strong. Hug the brush. Post 6 your ult lasts for longer than his level 1 blind. Since your fury's damage and wits end goes through blind you'll also be hurt less by the blind than champions that build AD. Finally, late game Kayle's E ratio is .1 higher than Teemo's which may not seem like a lot, but that's 10 damage per auto per 100 AP. If you have 400 AP that's 40 damage per auto lost.
imo Kayle's decent vs Teemo but by no means a counter.
Or Kayle finishes Lichbane and two-shots Teemo. Building Wit's is shooting yourself in the foot damage-wise.
If Teemo maxes E Kayle out-trades him with her Q + E combo because she shreds his MR, if Teemo maxes Q he can trade because he cuts the AD part of her E off for longer. I think Teemo's Q is also slightly longer range than Kayle's Q, so if he's fast Teemo can run in shoot it off and get out. With her ult Kayle just wins though. If you can get her to walk on a shroom then you can get away from her and possibly kill her, but otherwise you aren't winning that in an even matchup.
Panth, wukong, malphite(AP), elise, jayce. in that order. TF mid is also a soft counter to splitpush teemo.
Don't pick teemo when TF is already locked for the enemy team. It's almost worse than a pantheon counterpick. Probably half of my teemo losses are from twisted fate mid ruining my life.
bad pantheons win. once malphite gets chalice, you lose. wukong kills you whenever his ult is up.
cloth 5 is a must vs pantheon and wukong. i'd consider taking teleport vs pantheon. if you're able to kill pantheon he fucked up badly and ignite isn't going to be the game changer. try to not die early, use teleport if you can gain an advantage that creates a window where you can farm and zone him out. (both players out of pots/flask and low health. recall+teleport back and you have at least 1-2 waves of freefarm, more if he doesn't back immediately.) and once you complete seekers/tabi/vamp you can start pushing him around.
vs ridiculously ganky junglers (lee/j4...) start 17-0-13 and grab explorer ward+biscuit. you can go dorans blade and still have a pot/ward. unless you saw jungler gank bottom/mid and know they will be delayed, place around 2:30 in river and play safe from 3:30-4:00. it's rare to get ganked after that, but before your first back, where you can start warding yourself.
Kayle loses to teemo from my experience, but I'm sure i've only played bad kayles. punish her when her E is down, Qauto if she Q's to mitigate the E damage that is coming your way. I'm pretty sure teemo Q has more range, but i'd almost always save it to play reactionary to any Q's she does manage to throw. you can almost always bait out her E form and run before getting into her Q range. she has to use it to cs, or eat harass in melee. After level 6, strategic placement of in-lane shrooms are more important than river/brush wardhax shrooms. buy wards, use all shrooms in lane on the sides of creep waves. if you can force her to respect their placement, it minimizes her ability to chase you if you do get Q'd. kayle does have quite a powerspike once they finish nashors that you have to be careful about if you are going AD.
malph isn't that strong if you go for a lifesteal build but a gank is a free kill and he snowballs hard lol I didn think of wukong, irelia used to be good but that was vs everyone pre nerfs lol.
The only thing that gives teemo an ability to kite is movespeed. malphite steals movespeed. he doesn't just slow you, he moves faster the faster you were when it hits. If the enemy jungler comes top ever, you die.
Malphite is also one of the best low gold scaling tank/initiates in the game, so even if you dunk him in lane, he still bends your backline over and puts it in their butt. your split push is that much worse off if your team can't ever stop the 0-5 30 cs malphite from (flash) ult initiating 5v4.
malphite starts mantle + 2 pots, flash teleport or flash ignite. it's highly unlikely you shove him out of lane before he's able to farm up the rest of chalice. once he gets chalice + ward/pots, you can't really duel him anymore. he spams Q, your trades get shielded. he wins a slow war of attrition and eventually earns his right to farm unmolested. if he has ignite, his jungler doesn't even have to kill you early, if he shows up just once, malphite usually gets to level 6 without being in too bad of shape, and just allins teemo with ignite.
If malphite is jungling it's just as bad. malphite's Q is a very strong counter to teemo.
I don't understand why anybody would play teemo any way but AP. If you want to play a moderate range BotrK top then why not play Vayne for utility and AD scaling for optimum efficiency? I have been playing AP teemo as my main for a while now and I guess the big thing I have not seen mentioned here that made a difference in my play is that while my build is pretty set in stone (sorc boots, hourglass, nashtor's, deathcap, void staff, liandry's) the build path is VERY game dependent. I can tell you right now why people get frustrated with Nashtor's. It is not good in lane.
Ap teemo's laning is all about abusing the amazing ratio on E. With spellsword it is .75 per auto if you get full damage, higher than any of orianna's abilities including her ult. Since consistently applying the dot between CS is a strong laning tactic you must maximize AP efficiency in your purchases. Attack speed becomes better in team fights when constant damage output becomes the goal. The ratio on teemo's E in team fights is effectively...
.3 (on hit) + .1 (first tick of dot) + .05 (spellsword) +.15 (nashtors) = .6 ratio on hit/.9 for full duration
The difference in team fights between .45 and (.6x1.5) is huge but if you buy it too early you will find yourself out gunned in poke combat where attack speed is not important. Timing the investment in AS is crucial to your success.
When I look at these numbers, even apart from shrooms and blinding dart, I am amazed more pros don't hold him in their kit. MR is far harder to itemize than armor (late game people tend to half about half as much MR as armor) and less useful in team fights for most top laners. Once oracles is gone and people lose some of their prejudice I suspect a lot more people will be seeing teemo my way, even if the new season brings very little actual change to his game.
Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
I'm not saying teemo is bad. I love da teeto! I just take issue with tankmo and onhitmo because, while they do work, I do not think they are the best in the game at anything. If you are just looking for fun that is fine but in ranked play winning comes first. On the other hand I feel AP teemo is massively undervalued and is the best AP marksman in the game, a role strong enough to see worlds level play imo.
The whole point of my vayne example was to point out that these builds do not amplify teemo's strengths but instead sacrifice many of them to accommodate the meta.
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
I'm not saying teemo is bad. I love da teeto! I just take issue with tankmo and onhitmo because, while they do work, I do not think they are the best in the game at anything. If you are just looking for fun that is fine but in ranked play winning comes first. On the other hand I feel AP teemo is massively undervalued and is the best AP marksman in the game, a role strong enough to see worlds level play imo.
The whole point of my vayne example was to point out that these builds do not amplify teemo's strengths but instead sacrifice many of them to accommodate the meta.
Teemo's strengths are from your perspective. People doing on hit builds are trying him on hit because his kit also fits an on hit style.
He's not only competing with Kayle for best AP autoattacker but he's also probably undisputedly the best on hit champion.
On November 16 2013 02:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Teemo dunks a lot of top lanes that Vayne doesn't because of blind and also has a much stronger early game which can lead to snowballing plus he's a far better splitpusher and he can give your team a massive advantage in baron fights and map control
Those are some reasons
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
AP Teemo isn't gimmicky at all, playing ap is way better for teamfights/zone control than ad which is more about splitpushing/dueling. I've never had any problems with malphite, yes as ap teemo you buy more pots than as ad but if you have a matchup like this where you get harassed a bit you can always pick up a doran blade (+pots - always). When malph will come to Q you will throw on him 3x the damage he does to you... and Q off cooldown for him is free harass for you.
The malph matchup is such a bad example of ad teemos superior laning phase because malphite wants to buy armor not mr, so you're better going ap against him. Just get some health with haunting guise, a doran blade, pots and you will win if you avoid ganks.
I am so annoyed at this champion. Teemo is like the old Eve - really annoying, but also really weak (IMO). Every time I see someone pick him I lose the game.
It's as if the goal of the Teemo player is not to win - it is to annoy people. If you really want to counterpick, play Kennen or Vlad.
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
ad teemo is gimicky imo ap teemo is in many situations really good. Yes there are some hard counters(Kennen, swain and some others)
You can go some "lifesteal" by buying 1-2 dorans. Personally I play teemo a little bit different then the main teemo player in europe (fullon morning) by going a more auto attack build with going nashors and a couple of dorans blades in the start. Probably because im an AD carry player it is more natural for me to play him like this. Cooldown reduction is my most important stat aswell. I usually go morello and nashors to get manaregen and the 40% cdr (because I will not be able to get the blue buff)
Yeah, I think AP teemo is gimmicky, while playing AD teemo can be useful in fights. Teemo's main strength is dominating a lane so if you can't do that with vayne then ad teemo makes sense.
another problem with ap teemo is no lifesteal can suck hard. (think malphite or something, if you can't lifesteal Q's, after 2 q's he can R ignite E W Q and kill, even if you have pots, but pots+lifesteal is enough between Q combos hopefully)
ad teemo is gimicky imo ap teemo is in many situations really good. Yes there are some hard counters(Kennen, swain and some others)
You can go some "lifesteal" by buying 1-2 dorans. Personally I play teemo a little bit different then the main teemo player in europe (fullon morning) by going a more auto attack build with going nashors and a couple of dorans blades in the start. Probably because im an AD carry player it is more natural for me to play him like this. Cooldown reduction is my most important stat aswell. I usually go morello and nashors to get manaregen and the 40% cdr (because I will not be able to get the blue buff)
You should stop worrying about hard counters, at least with Teemo. Even if Kennen and Swain hard countered Teemo, you'd rarely ever see a good Kennen or Swain that could counterpick you. It'd be like worrying about Top lane Sivir or Top Lane Leblanc destroying you as Teemo. Swain and Kennen vs Teemo might happen once in 50 games. So few times, it could be said to be trivial. Even when they do happen, no matchups on lolking have a greater than 60% win rate. That means even when they happen, you'll still have like a 40%+ chance of winning.
Even if it was true that you got hard countered by Kennen and this were common knowledge among the LoL community like Teemo countering Tryn, I've seen Tryn's destroy Teemo. Voyboy does it on youtube. Even if this were common knowledge, most of the time you'd just face a shit Kennen who might win lane and will spend the rest of the game charging into your team without Zhonyas.
Just because people win by being the superior player, does not mean that you cannot talk about hard/soft-counters. Otherwise, ban/pick phase would be near useless, because you could pick 5 random champions and not give 2 shits about the enemy's picks.
On November 25 2013 17:49 Sponkz wrote: Just because people win by being the superior player, does not mean that you cannot talk about hard/soft-counters. Otherwise, ban/pick phase would be near useless, because you could pick 5 random champions and not give 2 shits about the enemy's picks.
Ban phase is pretty meaningless for us in solo queue.
You ban the overpowered champions with a clearly high win rate and what you don't want to deal with. Even if it didn't exist the game would be balanced for low level play. We'd just see more Blitzcranks and Threshes lol.
I don't know why you're talking about picking 5 random champions. People play what they're good with. The pick phase is ordered and lets the team create a coherent comp.
High level, bans and picks have more strategic depth to them and change the flow of games.
I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
On November 25 2013 20:09 Sponkz wrote: I talk about picking 5 random champions, because the way you address it, any champion can beat anyone. If i feel like playing tryndamere, then according to you, i shouldn't feel intimidated if the enemy picks teemo or malphite and just give 0 fucks? You're automatically assuming that:
a) Your opponent sucks in general b) Your opponent has no grasp of the champion he/she is playing c) Your opponent does not have experience with the match up
So if I assume this, why would I give a shit about what i pick? I can pick Soraka and beat Blitzcrank, I can pick Vladimir and beat Malzahar, I can pick Tryndamere and beat Teemo, but does that say anything about the pick(s) or the player I'm against?
You´re also generalizing way too much with your ideology of bans in solo queue. Most people actually prefer to ban shit that counters their own comfort-zone. It's way more common than just targeting fotm-champions and also the reason there's such a big diversity in bans across the tiers.
Your conclusions don't make sense. Any champion can beat anyone, that's true. You should play who you're good at instead of picking random. I never said you should pick random.
If bans were just for comfort zones I wouldn't be seeing Kassadin Nidalee Blitz Thresh bans every game.
EPT
