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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
So either A - Cass needs to be getting kills to get gold. Or B - The zoning needs to be so severe that Twitch gets far ahead. Vs. certain lanes I think the zoning potential may be there. We found that Leona was basically worthless vs. this lane, straight from level 1 Twitch/Cass can just go all in and the Leona+ADC lane has to back all the way off or die. Vs. say Cait Lulu, things would probably be different. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Unlike a lot of all-in lanes, I think this one doesn't need to be ahead to be scary. In game four (which went down the tubes for various reasons) I was still able to 1v1 Cait a number of times despite being way, way behind her in levels in farm. Cassiopeia is simply scary, and I would have been a lot scarier rushing AP than mana. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On August 24 2013 12:46 Seuss wrote: In retrospect I really think I should have gone all in on offensive itemization, skipping Tear for AP/Penetration and only worrying about mana when the laning phase was basically over. The poking I was doing with Q and W was basically meaningless, and sometimes got me into trouble. When the lane worked, it worked because Twitch attacked someone and I just keyed off that and blew them up. Unlike a lot of all-in lanes, I think this one doesn't need to be ahead to be scary. In game four (which went down the tubes for various reasons) I was still able to 1v1 Cait a number of times despite being way, way behind her in levels in farm. Cassiopeia is simply scary, and I would have been a lot scarier rushing AP than mana. Yup. I wholeheartedly agree with this analysis. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
So lets discuss that a bit. Runes wise I think a standard AP page makes sense, even a flat AP page. Mpen / Armor / FlatAP / FlatAP. You want to have a tremendous level 1 all in. Masteries I don't think 9/0/21 is wrong. If you think about it, 5 points in the later parts of the offense tree will be +5% AP and Spellsword. Cass doesn't have time to auto really with her spam, and +5% AP isn't efficient when you don't have money to get lots of AP. If you go 9/0/21 you can get the GP10, the extra starting gold and the level 1 items, which are going to be useful for obvious reasons. Then you can get all the movespeed which helps Cass zone in lane, as well as the spell vamp/lifesteal, which is probably as helpful as 2% extra damage from Havoc (if not better) Basically, assuming that Havoc = Vampirism, and assuming that the +5% AP is bad when you don't have gold to get a full build, you're looking at 2 GP10, 50 gold, biscuit, explorer ward and 3% movespeed vs. 6 AP and Executioner. The 6 AP at level 1 is nice but I think the biscuit and extra potion you get from the 50 gold gives you a stronger initial lane. Items? I don't have a clue. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
You're right that it's weak early. I haven't had a bot lane try to abuse us hard at level 1, which might crush us. I'd be willing to try both sides of the matchup in some practice games. Here's what I've been running as Malphite: magic pen reds, flat armor yellows, flat cdr blues, flat AP quints, 0/9/21 starting items Mana Manipulator + 2 wards + 2 hp pots | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Haunting Guise is probably one of the better options since it can be built piecemeal, though there's a minor power curve issue when you have the Ruby Crystal but haven't finished it. Armguard is another option, though if you aren't CSing it isn't that good. Void Staff might actually be a fairly good option as well. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I also kind of liked Wave's idea of getting Twin Shadows. Twin Shadows builds out of Kage's and while it doesn't give too much AP, it gives her some extra utility. Maybe something like Kage's -> Haunting Guise -> Twin Shadows -> Liandry if possible would be best. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
 Appearently there's a sweet spot against wolves too where the big one wont attack you. ADC junglers meta inc?  aaaaand there's one vs Wraiths too (needs kiting)..... Riot pls EDIT: Pictures of "sweet spots", for some reason my own screenshots come out totally black but I tried to find the best on google. Basically how it works is that the big monster will keep trying to aggro but it will cancel in mid attack and thus dealing no damage, it will then try to walk back but before health reset kicks in it'll re-aggro and keep being in this cycle until dead. It can be used on all jungle camps. Again. Riot pls Blue buff: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2crq8ih.jpg) Red buff: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2s9yrlw.jpg) Wolves: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/28bve42.jpg) - really small area, hard to see on the picture - sorry. Wraiths: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/11j23ya.jpg) - need to juke back and forth around the thin area. Really hard to pull off since it's ranged. Small golems: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/2vb1wmb.jpg) There's a blue flower on botside, need to stand almost on it. I don't know if the other ranged champions can do it or if it's only Twitch that thanks to his passive can keep re-triggering aggro to prevent monsters from resetting. Nor do I know if it needs a specific runepage - used attack reds, movespeed quints and 2% attack speed from masteries. Started Expunge. If it's common knowledge feel free to ignore this post. | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
On August 24 2013 12:56 Ketara wrote: I really think if we try this for next week we should math out what an economical build for Cassiopeia is that gets her as much damage as you can on a budget. there was an answer on some site a few months ago that settled this, the answer is always liandries if you can only afford 1 damage item, something that does % health will always be the best morello is the best option if what you want is cdr/ap but magic penetration is a wasted stat on you (janna) | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On August 25 2013 04:15 Jek wrote: + Show Spoiler + Is it common knowledge that Twitch can kill blue and red without taking any damage from the big Golem/Lizard at level 1? Considering how scary his ganks is, this might be interesting to investigate. Appearently there's a sweet spot against wolves too where the big one wont attack you. ADC junglers meta inc? aaaaand there's one vs Wraiths too (needs kiting)..... Riot pls EDIT: Pictures of "sweet spots", for some reason my own screenshots come out totally black but I tried to find the best on google. Basically how it works is that the big monster will keep trying to aggro but it will cancel in mid attack and thus dealing no damage, it will then try to walk back but before health reset kicks in it'll re-aggro and keep being in this cycle until dead. It can be used on all jungle camps. Again. Riot pls Blue buff: + Show Spoiler + Red buff: + Show Spoiler + Wolves: + Show Spoiler + - really small area, hard to see on the picture - sorry. Wraiths: + Show Spoiler + - need to juke back and forth around the thin area. Really hard to pull off since it's ranged. Small golems: + Show Spoiler + There's a blue flower on botside, need to stand almost on it. I don't know if the other ranged champions can do it or if it's only Twitch that thanks to his passive can keep re-triggering aggro to prevent monsters from resetting. Nor do I know if it needs a specific runepage - used attack reds, movespeed quints and 2% attack speed from masteries. Started Expunge. If it's common knowledge feel free to ignore this post. A big part of it is the passive re-aggroing immediately, since the monsters start healing as soon as you lose aggro and adcs don't have a lot of AS at level 1. Nice pictures, I didn't know it still worked. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 25 2013 05:15 Duvon wrote: While ranged champs also can kite the big buffs really well, it still comes down to how vulnerable you are as a jungler, to invades etc. But you take zero damage from the big Golem/Lizard, so I'd imagine you could start Doran's Blade without any issue regarding to health (would probably be much better than Machete/Pots in regards to staying in jungle). Which would make you be nearly full health inside your own jungle, an early would be in your favor? I mean, you have a strong early game item, nearly full health and can just keep your skills off cool-down - with Twitch that's a fairly high amount of damage. It's a valid point tho. Thought it is worth mentioning that in the test-run, ie. no leash at all, I could run my entire jungle and enemy jungle (including their buffs) with a machette/pots start and I still had pots to spare after finishing. On August 25 2013 05:53 Jek wrote: Nor do I know if it needs a specific runepage - used attack reds, movespeed quints and 2% attack speed from masteries. Started Expunge. Just to clarify I meant to write attack speed reds. | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
But if anyone's at AnimeFest in Dallas let me know and we can meet up. :3 | ||
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JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
1) void: 2295 gold, 70 ap, 35% mpen 2) liandries: 2900 gold, 50 ap, 300 hp, +15 mpen, hp burn passive 3) rylai: 2900, 80 ap, 500 hp, slow passive I personally believe rylai is the best choice because you're playing support Cass, the extra utility is better in my opinion. plus the strategy is based on spamming Es. the 500 hp is huge too because Cass is so squishy. liandries has the best buildup though and void is 600 cheaper. liandries is also not utilized as well because of Cass's spam and dot. just my 2 cents from a paper standpoint. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Runes: + Show Spoiler + Red - Mpen Yellow - Armor Blue - Flat AP Quint - Flat AP The goal here is to have the most level 1 dominance possible. We want to be winning the lane at level 1 and riding that into zoning the enemy duo hard. Masteries: + Show Spoiler + http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#73K7vwdmgM78MB The concept here is that 9/0/21 is stronger than 21/0/9 when you aren't getting CS from farming. Here's the logic on that. Nimble and Executioner we can say are about equally useful. Vampirism and Havoc we can say are about equally useful. What's left is the explorer ward and the gold masteries (2 GP10, 50 starting gold and Pickpocket) vs 5% extra AP and 6 starting AP. Presumably, the extra potion from 50 extra starting gold and the explorer ward gives you stronger laning than 6 AP does. The 5% extra AP doesn't give you as much AP over time as the 2 GP10, because you aren't going to be able to buy many items in a support position. Skill order: E W E Q E R R > E > W > Q I don't think there's much room for debate here. E is the obvious first max choice because it is going to let us zone and Twitch will be applying the poison stacks with his cask so we don't need Q to proc it. W is an aoe slow field and the slow increases with levels. Q is really just for poke and applying secondary poison. Core Items + Show Spoiler + Starting: 3 sight wards, 1 vision ward, 2 health pots, 2 mana pots. Core: Boots, Kage's Lucky Pick, Crystalline Flask The concept here is that we want mana regen on Cass but there aren't any mana regen items that she really likes from a support position besides Shard of True Ice which is awkward to the point of just being an awful item. Kage's gives GP10 and Flask allows her to spend all her potion money on wards, and will easily pay for itself by the end of the laning phase. We're starting with 4 wards because we want to be zoning hard and playing aggressive, and Cass has no hard CC till level 6, so warding everything is important. I'm hoping that over time Kage's+Flask gives about as much GP10 as a Sightstone, while providing Cass with AP and regen, which is what she wants to be building. What to build afterwards: + Show Spoiler + Here's some math with this build on Void Staff vs. Liandry's. Assuming level 11 and our core items with sorc shoes, you've got 62 AP. With Liandry: 112 AP, 8%+38 mpen With Void: 132 AP, 40%+23 mpen How does a Cass E damage look with this to different mres targets? 50 mres Liandry: 232.96 Void: 245.65 100 mres Liandry: 163.37 Void: 191.95 150 mres Liandry: 125.8 Void: 157.52 200 mres Liandry: 102.27 Void: 133.97 Now, Liandry is 2900g vs. Void Staffs 2295, but when we take out the cost of the HP Liandry gives, we can assume they're roughly equal. The question here is whether or not the Liandry passive will cause it to outdamage Void Staff. The answer is I'm not sure, it may be roughly equal. However, Liandry has the bonus of a build path that includes smaller pieces, plus Haunting Guise which is going to be an excellent mid game laning item. So I think Liandry is probably the stronger choice. So, realistically what we want is Liandry for our first "big item" and then Void Staff for our second if we can afford it. An ideal late game support Cass build will be: Kage's, Flask, Sorc Shoes, Liandry, Void Staff, Wards Thoughts? | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Paging red_ to the thread. I'm experimenting with tank jungle Gragas and I think it actually fits the current meta pretty well. I know he'd tried it some time ago in a TROLLS, but the game didn't go well for his team. I seem to recall he had a few issues and thoughts, but I couldn't find them in this thread, so I was curious as to what they were. Instead of maxing Q first, I've been going with R>W>E>Q. Q max is normal for AP jungle Gragas, but for tank Gragas it actually makes the least sense. The standard tank builds (Golem -> SV+Randuin's+Aegis etc) don't invest much in mana regen, so maxing Gragas' most mana-hungry ability first is a mistake. I max E second for the same reason, and also because it benefits from the bonus AD from W. You don't want to be spamming both Q and E in the jungle all that much, so going with the one that costs less and scales with your level/W is better. I've only tested it in bot games so far, but clearing hasn't been a big issue (I've been giving blue buffs to other people and generally avoiding abusing the lack of an opposing jungler). I'm curious what red has to say. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
We're short of things to test top and mid lane at the moment, so if anyone has any ideas there please share them. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I've seen it before, and I've never thought it was particularly great. Ezreal or Quinn both perform quite a bit better. Or even Graves and Draven probably. | ||
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