EPT[TL R&D] T.R.O.L.L.S. - Page 47
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Cheap0
United States540 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On March 23 2013 15:21 Seuss wrote: I see what happened, when I copied from my previous testing post it still said 5 CST, but we're now CDT. It converted and added an hour I didn't intend. TL Time too smart. G_G Old man monte off his rocker. So old he can't tell time anymore. It's like it all meshes together into a blur. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Shaso
France2 Posts
I would like to discuss with you about an idea of a jungle’s opening: doran’s blade instead of hunter's machete. This opening requires specific runes and masteries to use the doran’s blade effectively, because we lose 4 health potions. Runes: Marks: flat attack speed, Seals: flat armor, Glyphs: magic resist per level, Quints: life steal Masteries: 2/7/21: http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8917/loljungleopeningmasteri.png The goal is to have the best Hp regeneration with doran's blade + life steal quints + masteries, because we only have 1 health potion + buiscuit. We have 9% life steal. All champions have at least 60 AD with the doran’s blade at level 1. The greatest value of armor for the monsters of the jungle was 20 (lisard elder and ancient golem), the champion will do at least 50 damages with his auto attack, this is equivalent to a regeneration of 4.5 Hp per auto attack. Therefore, we have a regeneration of 9.5 HP per auto attack the doran’s blade + the life steal. If the champion have an attack speed of 0.6, it will put 3 auto attacks every 5 seconds,which gives a equivalent regeneration of 28.5 Hp5 while we hit monsters. To compare, the passive of level 1 Xin Zhao battle cry regenerates 26 HP every 3 auto attacks. If the champion have an attack speed of 0.8, it will put 4 auto attacks, if the champion have an attack speed of 1.0, it will put 5 auto attacks, … Junglers who can increase their attack speed are good candidates for this opening, especially if they also have another heal, shield or a damage’s reduction spell. I started to do some tests in solo custom games to check the reliability of this opening without going back to the base before the return of the first big buff. For my tests I used the following road: ancient golem > wolves > wraiths > lizard elder > golems > wraiths > wolves and cleaned camps as soon as possible, smite used as soon as possible. Important Note: I only have one life steal quint, I replaced the other two by armor quint, reduce the regeneration of 20% (7.5 vs 9.5 Hp per auto attack). Tier 1 : junglers who stay with more than ¾ of max health Xin Zhao, Nasus, Malphite, Trundle, Nunu. Tier 2 : junglers who stay with more than ½ of max health Skarner, Alistar, Trindamere, Cho gat, Maokai, Amumu, Taric. Tier 3 : junglers who need to back after the red buff because they’re not safe to continue cleaning the jungle after, even if it may be possible : Kha zix, Jarvan 4, Wukong, Rammus, Nautilus, Riven. My first conclusions: - Junglers with a short cooldown heal or life steal use well this opening, as junglers with a powerful damage’s reduction (malphite’s spell “ground slam”) - Junglers with just a shield, or with any form of sustain need a quick back after red buff. - The purchase of a second doran’s blade can solve regeneration’s problems for junglers who need to back after the elder lizard. Points to deal with in depth : - My runes and masteries shouldn’t be optimized but I think it’s a good starting point. - I have not unlocked the other junglers and need 2 life steal quints to do more tests. - Test this opening in normal games with opponents instead of solo. Thanks for reading =) | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
The problem with a dblade start imo is that you don't actually gain much over a machete start. I can see Xin and Trundle preferring it, but Skarner, for instance, would rather have spirit stone | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 27 2013 05:27 Tooplark wrote: Back when Lee Sin was still considered useless I used to jungle him with DBlade start and just farm a super fast level 6 and gank. The problem with a dblade start imo is that you don't actually gain much over a machete start. I can see Xin and Trundle preferring it, but Skarner, for instance, would rather have spirit stone Xin's jungle speed would slow to a crawl without Madred's(I can't say anything about Trundle, 0 experience). The tradeoff for a marginally more powerful early gank just isn't there IMO(especially for any of the junglers that sacrifice safety to do so). | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
3 PM Pacific everydudes. I'll post a schedule tomorrow morning since Monte loves me and is also Catholic. | ||
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Bebop_Drop
United States4 Posts
Laning wise he provided a lot more zoning than I thought he would just harassing with pillar without any mana problems. Pillar is great in laning skirmishes, escaping ganks and securing ganks. Rank 1 of his Q takes away 10 ad(which takes away a long sword's damage increase). And the shred on his ult provides extra damage as well. Outside of laning his W provides a nice speed boost and cc reduction to help him safely ward the map. Pillar not only can catch an enemy out of position it can also provide sight similar to Zyra plants. And he can peel better than a few of the common supports. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 29 2013 14:34 Bebop_Drop wrote: So support Trundle might actually be legit. I tried it a few games tonight and it seemed to work well enough though I think it needs more testing in a more arranged setting. Laning wise he provided a lot more zoning than I thought he would just harassing with pillar without any mana problems. Pillar is great in laning skirmishes, escaping ganks and securing ganks. Rank 1 of his Q takes away 10 ad(which takes away a long sword's damage increase). And the shred on his ult provides extra damage as well. Outside of laning his W provides a nice speed boost and cc reduction to help him safely ward the map. Pillar not only can catch an enemy out of position it can also provide sight similar to Zyra plants. And he can peel better than a few of the common supports. pardon but really?...I mean, he has pillar. and can bite the AD at melee range for -10ad..and..a tiny bit of sustain?..I do not see the recipe for a good support here. How does trundle zone anyone? Like, pillar is a good skill we all know that but pretty much anyone would be a better support than trundle....like you know, champs with like auras and 3 kinds of CC and shit.....like...thresh etc.. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:11 Ketara wrote: Yeah I'll do it. 3 PM Pacific everydudes. I'll post a schedule tomorrow morning since Monte loves me and is also Catholic. Posting to say that I'm not Catholic but everyone should listen to you tomorrow anyway. On March 29 2013 14:51 sob3k wrote: pardon but really?...I mean, he has pillar. and can bite the AD at melee range for -10ad..and..a tiny bit of sustain?..I do not see the recipe for a good support here. How does trundle zone anyone? Like, pillar is a good skill we all know that but pretty much anyone would be a better support than trundle....like you know, champs with like auras and 3 kinds of CC and shit.....like...thresh etc.. Thresh OP. If Trundle's Q reduced AD by the same value as the bonus then Support Trundle might work, but as it stands -10 AD is pretty bad. You also only increase the reduction by 2.5 per rank, which is really, really weak. We'll see if anything changes with the rework, but Trundle seems like a weaker/less versatile version of support Nasus at the moment. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + After some playtesting, I have decided that jungle morg is viable (neat since lane morg is pretty bad now): Smite/flash (obvious reasons) Hybrid reds/armor yellows/cdr blues/ap quints (hybrids since you auto stuff in the jungle and cdr blues since little need for mr) I go 9/9/12 but other specs work fine Build: machete5->spirit stone->armguard->sorcs->zhonyas->wraith stone->abyssal/aegis/locket->insertsituationalitem Zhonyas rush is strong, vamp stone gives a lot of sustain and clearing speed (dem smite heals) Focus on ganking, pre-6 a bind will usually net a kill, post-6 ult will net a kill Skill order is wqwe->r/w/q/e (smart level q first in invasion scenarios) Maxing w offers a very fast clear, when big monsters have max mr debuff, q them and move out of their range. Mana does become an issue, so don't spam bind in the jungle every time it comes off cd. I play heavily supportily, so I give laners kills (avg jungle morg stats are 3/3/10) Feedback is appreciated Testing stuff like this is how I conceived jungle nasus in the first place lol | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 29 2013 18:12 101toss wrote: Currently researching jungle morgana (x-post from morg thread): + Show Spoiler + After some playtesting, I have decided that jungle morg is viable (neat since lane morg is pretty bad now): Smite/flash (obvious reasons) Hybrid reds/armor yellows/cdr blues/ap quints (hybrids since you auto stuff in the jungle and cdr blues since little need for mr) I go 9/9/12 but other specs work fine Build: machete5->spirit stone->armguard->sorcs->zhonyas->wraith stone->abyssal/aegis/locket->insertsituationalitem Zhonyas rush is strong, vamp stone gives a lot of sustain and clearing speed (dem smite heals) Focus on ganking, pre-6 a bind will usually net a kill, post-6 ult will net a kill Skill order is wqwe->r/w/q/e (smart level q first in invasion scenarios) Maxing w offers a very fast clear, when big monsters have max mr debuff, q them and move out of their range. Mana does become an issue, so don't spam bind in the jungle every time it comes off cd. I play heavily supportily, so I give laners kills (avg jungle morg stats are 3/3/10) Feedback is appreciated Testing stuff like this is how I conceived jungle nasus in the first place lol Its seems unnecessary to armguard into zhonyas rush. Wouldn't you be just all around more effective if you just went for AP stone as fast as possible to get reasonable clear speed, or some mana/regen? Armguard is a bunch or armor for no real reason, and you wont be needing the zhonyas until teamfights in all probability. I'll go try jungle morg, I dont have your fancy shmancy runes though | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On March 29 2013 18:21 sob3k wrote: Its seems unnecessary to armguard into zhonyas rush. Wouldn't you be just all around more effective if you just went for AP stone as fast as possible to get reasonable clear speed, or some mana/regen? Armguard is a bunch or armor for no real reason, and you wont be needing the zhonyas until teamfights in all probability. I'll go try jungle morg Theory was that armguard rush was better since it hits max stacks earlier (and you also get zhonya's earlier), but rushing vamp stone gives great sustain and faster clear while being dirt cheap. The 1600 jump to get nlr for zhonya's feels problematic as a jungler, which is why I skip the vamp stone initially, but I guess it just depends on timings. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 29 2013 18:27 101toss wrote: Theory was that armguard rush was better since it hits max stacks earlier (and you also get zhonya's earlier), but rushing vamp stone gives great sustain and faster clear while being dirt cheap. The 1600 jump to get nlr for zhonya's feels problematic as a jungler, which is why I skip the vamp stone initially, but I guess it just depends on timings. wow, that actually works not bad at all. I just used Mpen/Armor/AP/AP,11/10/9 . I went fast APstone first, which makes clears actually very reasonable for most anyone. Also I had a feeding swain and was vs shaco so I got no blues and I did ok, only running OOM a few times. Our trynd had no idea how to play (50 cs at like 20min), and swain got ruined by fizz so we lost but I was 4-2 with good CS and felt useful, ended 6-6-6, plus I haven't played morg in forever and missed a few probable kills by not blowing ult and being bad. I really wanted CDR badly for more bindings, and also some tankyness/bit more mana. Not sure how to get it., but I just ended up with Apstone/zhonyas//Sorcs/Guise. ROA seems like it would be pretty slow after APstone and not that great. I almost want to get CDR boots just for the bindings....You could also just go like fuck it and get a locket.... rushing Liandries after APstone also seems like it could be good. Armguard stacks in like 5 minions so it doesn't really matter when you buy it, as long as you get the zhonyas by the time teamfighting starts. All in all that felt viable though, terrible dueling with morg, but you can usually just bind and walk out or hold them until someone can help. I'm gonna try Mach5/APstone/Liandries and see how that effects my damage and zhonyas timing. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
not a fan of liandries but w/e | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 29 2013 19:44 101toss wrote: ^you usually get most of your cdr from runes (7.5 from blues), masteries (4-10 depending on spec), and wraith stone (10). So normally your core will put you at ~20%. Then blue buff should top you off at 40%. Other cdr itemization is difficult: locket is 10, blue pot is 10, if you want real lulz SV is 20. CDR is indeed a very important stat since it allows for bind spam and less downtime on black shield (op in current meta). not a fan of liandries but w/e i'm pretty sure Liandries increases your damage by a pretty massive amount with the movement impair/DOT, and MR debuff from pool, I like it for the 200hp too and its very smooth to build. I played again and got it fast but It was an absurd one sided stomp and we just rolled them so I have no conclusion. There is just that classic morg situation where you bind/pool them and then sit there autoing....liandries I think helps with that quite a bit. Your ult chains also has a 20% slow so it procs double liandries damage for the whole duration. Liandries also should help speed drag and baron which she doesn't excel at. Jungle morg feels totally viable to me though, her clear is safe and quick, she has strong CC and ganks, good teamfighting later, and mana isn't a real issue. She is also amazing at holding lanes (and stealing farm). weaknesses seem to be terrible dueling and low overall dps, but that's really not too bad with all the CC and you have and black shield, and if you had a decent team who responded to threats in your jungle, could be mostly mitigated. also a very relaxing jungle, takes like 5 apm | ||
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