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[TL R&D] T.R.O.L.L.S. - Page 49

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
April 01 2013 21:08 GMT
#961
On April 02 2013 05:18 Ketara wrote:

In teamfights you want to just not use your ult. Just auto, try to get a blind off on their ADC if you can, save E to jump off anybody who dives you, and ult after the fight is over to clean up runners.



This, her ult is very weird, and it really is a trap to use it in the beginning or middle of teamfights. I feel the hardest thing about Quinn is knowing when to use her ult, but once you get a feel for it she gets a lot stronger. I've been having a lot of success with top Quinn, building her as Monte says. If you get even a little fed she just scales so hard.
I got nothin'...
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
April 02 2013 04:59 GMT
#962
morgana to receive mana cost reductions in pbe

more viable than before it seems now
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-02 07:02:34
April 02 2013 07:01 GMT
#963
Honestly, I don't see why we don't see more Morgana + Nunu. Given the buffs to both of them (CDR/Mana reduction for Nunu mostly), I think it might be viable to run them as a pair of insane AOE ult area control. A Nunu with Morg ult is stupidly powerful, a massive AOE nuke/slow, and with that a decent chance of proccing Morgana ult's stun and nuke.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
April 03 2013 19:47 GMT
#964
Quinn mid looks pretty legit guys: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29163504#history
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 06:29:41
April 04 2013 06:25 GMT
#965
im now thinking of a bruiser/ splitpush malzahar. his voidlings have 100% ad scaling, and i think building a banner of command could be pretty good on him (ap/armor and stronger minions). after that, just build tanky and cdr-- maybe a frozen fist/heart, randuin's, merc treads with a tear (manamune). finish it with an abyssal or mercurial scimitar.

malz has pretty good waveclear, voidlings kill stuff pretty fast, then like shen you can just tele in when your team needs you. he's got great teamfight utility-- 3 sec silence/ %hp damage and a suppress, and the base values (esp his w) is decent w/o AP.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
57 Corvette
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada5941 Posts
April 05 2013 16:13 GMT
#966
I'l be up for playing tonight, I'd like to do a bit of testing on Taric top as well. So far from what I've seen, building him tanky/AP with more of a focus on mana/tankiness (like a melee ryze a bit) seems to be the most effective, although I struggled against an AP top (I don't remember which one, was melee APish, might have been diana)
Survival is winning, everything else is bullshit.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-05 16:50:41
April 05 2013 16:49 GMT
#967
FRIDAY TEST AGENDA: 04/05/2013

Official testing begins at 22:00 GMT (+00:00). If you cannot be present by the appointed time then come whenever you can. We'll be testing so long as we have researchers and working brains, so it will continue for many hours and into the night presuming there is interest. All testing will be coordinated from the TROLLS chat channel and through TeamLiquid's TeamSpeak.

This week we will do both inhouses and arranged games, depending upon attendance.

I will stream all tests that I am a part of at http://www.twitch.tv/montegomerylol.

  • Specific Subjects:
    • Support Zilean
    • Jayce AD
    • Nami AD
    • Top Taric
    • Top Sejuani

  • General Concepts:
    • AP Junglers
    • Abduction/Hook Compositions

  • Changes from Last Week:
    • AP Jungle Testing Added
    • AP Duo Testing Removed
    • Baron Rush Testing Removed
    • Tower Rush Testing Removed
    • AD Thresh Removed
    • Support Nasus Removed


Details:

Removed Subjects:+ Show Spoiler +

A number of topics have been tested enough for our purposes. Further testing of these concepts requires a more stable, coordinated team practicing against players of a higher caliber. At the moment, T.R.O.L.L.S. does not have the resources to continue testing these topics in a meaningful way (though they remain fun). These topics include:
  • Support Nasus
  • AD Thresh
  • AP+Support Duo Lanes
  • Tower Rush Compositions

Some other topics are simply beyond our skill level to test effectively, and have also been removed. Specifically, Baron Rush compositions never worked largely due to execution issues inherent in a random gathering of players.

This will likely also be the last week of Top Sejuani testing for similar reasons.



Support Zilean:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QWQE R>Q>W>E
Primary Items: Philo Stone, Kage's, Sightstone
Secondary Items: Deathcap, Shurelya's, Crucible, Shard, Tear
Abilities:
  • Heightened Learning: Beyond simply assuring that his team will generally have a level advantage, the exp boost gives all his lanes the potential to hit level 6 first. This provides a potential timing for a sudden kill.
  • Time Bomb: When cast one bomb at a time this is a very sustainable and deadly form of harass. The high base damage and potent scaling makes Zilean one of the hardest hitting harass supports in the game, and also a good source of wave clear later.
  • Rewind: More bombs, slows, and ultimates. This is why you make sure you cap CDR on Zilean.
  • Time Warp: Speeding up a lane ganking jungler, slowing down an out of place opponent, helping a carry escape to safety. There are a plethora of applications for this ability. This is actually longest duration CC in the entire game, clocking in at 5.5 seconds, and with CDR Zilean can keep it up permanently.
  • Chronoshift: The reason to use Zilean in any role. Having a GA available for every team fight is incredibly powerful, especially as it's independent of maximum health. With maximum CDR and back to back Rewinds, it has an effective cooldown of a mere 30 seconds.


Best AD Carries:
  • Twitch: The amount of early pressure this pair can put down is absolutely brutal, and having a get out of jail free card for Twitch later is extremely valuable.
  • Graves: A tanky AD carry combined with a revive is extremely difficult to deal with.
  • Kog'maw: Let's be clear, any hard carry with a revive every teamfight is difficult to deal with. Zilean's ability to help Kog'maw from getting overwhelmed by a hard push is also useful.
  • Tristana: Having a revive available for overly gung-ho Tristana players is a literal life-saver. Zilean's strong mid-game, even as a support, helps make up for Tristana's lack of one.
  • Jayce: Stacking movement speed boosts is fun, and slowed targets are easy targets for Shock Blast.


Notes: Like Nasus, Zilean needs capped CDR to truly realize his potential. Unlike Nasus, he also needs a lot of mana and mana regeneration to support his spell usage. Acquiring some considerable amount of AP is also desirable as it greatly increases the potency of his ultimate, clear, and harass.



Jayce AD:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QEQW R>Q>W>E
Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Brutalizer
Secondary Items: Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Warmog's Armor, Infinity Edge

Best Supports::
  • Leona: Her ability to lock down a target gives Jayce ample time to set up a Shock Blast -> all-in, and his acceleration gate can greatly help her initiation.
  • Taric: His stun and armor shred is a perfect setup for a Shock Blast -> all-in. The sustain he brings and beneficial auras are icing on the cake.
  • Alistar: The combination of not one, but two displacement abilities is extremely nasty for both engaging and disengaging.
  • Zilean: Throwing a bomb on Jayce's head as he zooms headlong into a heavily harassed opponent, followed by a revive in case of emergency, is a thing of beauty.
  • Nasus: It's impossible to dodge Shock Blast when Withered, and oh do they hurt when you have zero armor.


Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.

Notes: Jayce does not fit the standard AD carry paradigm. Unlike almost every other AD carry, Attack Speed is largely an irrelevant stat for him. Instead, Jayce derives an incredible amount of power from CDR. With capped CDR Jayce's Cannon-W is roughly equivalent to a 130% Attack Speed steroid (without accounting for the increased damage). In many ways it is superior to such a steroid, as Jayce can burst an opponent with four quick attacks, disengage, and then reengage once the cooldown returns. Combined with his built-in speed boosts and above average (for an AD carry) movement speed, Jayce can afford to completely ignore AS/Movement itemization vital to other AD carries.

Jayce excels as an AD who can largely protect himself. His Hammer-Q -> Hammer-W combo on an adjacent target slows them and creates distance simultaneously (while also doing significant damage). Switching back to Cannon mode gives him a 25% Armor/MR reduction on the aggressor, which assures that the incoming burst will hurt like hell. With capped CDR this pattern can be repeated every 3.6 seconds, putting all but the most dogged of opponents in an impossible position.

Jayce's primary weakness is mana, but then other prominent ADs are also common recipients of Blue buff (Ezreal, Urgot). Jayce also works best with aggressive supports who can create space for Jayce to harass and farm.



Nami AD:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QEW R>W>E>Q
Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Infinity Edge
Secondary Items: Blade of the Ruined King, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper

Best Supports::
  • Leona: Nami's sustain makes up for Leona's primary weakness, and it's extremely easy to follow up Leona's CC with Nami's. This super-heavy CC combination should be able to punish a large variety of lanes.
  • Thresh: Any successful hook should essentially be a kill given proper coordination. The sheer amount of CC in this lane should make it an easy gank even for oddball junglers who have no CC or even gap closers.
  • Alistar: Nami's speed boost, slow from her autos, and (again) chain CC makes this a frightening lane. The double sustain combo should also make it extremely resilient.
  • Sona: Double poke, double sustain. Nami's CC makes up for Sona's lake thereof, and she can easily help keep Sona out of danger.


Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.

Notes: Nami lacks any true AD steroid or scaling, but her base Attack Speed and level scaling are decent. While she won't be terrible late game, she won't be able to match the power of late-game carries. As a result she, like Ashe, relies heavily on utility to be useful later, whatever her item build.

Nami's built in sustain makes her strong with supports lacking it, and her CC complements her support's. A Nami lane should thus be played aggressively, wearing down opponents until an opportunity arises for an all-in.



Top Taric: Requested by 57 Corvette


Top Sejuani:+ Show Spoiler +

This showed considerable promise in last week's testing. While the matchup and execution thereof didn't make it definitive, the potential for Sejuani as a top laner should be examined.

Skill Order: QWE R>W>Q>E
Primary Items: Warmog's Armor, Locket
Secondary Items: Haunting Guise, Aegis/Bulwark, Sunfire Cape, Randuin's Omen, Spirit Visage, Rylai's, Void Staff
Abilities:
  • Frost: Not as amazing as a Frozen Mallet, but useful nonetheless.
  • Arctic Assault: Sejuani's gap closer/escape. The cooldown is nearly halved by rank 5, making it a priority to max this second. Note that it applies Frost, and your escape can be blocked as it stops upon collision with an enemy champion.
  • Northern Winds: This is Sejuani's core ability. Its Health -> Damage ratio is based on rank, making it important to max this first. A Frosted target takes 396 + 18% of Sejuani's Maximum Health in damage over the duration, making it hard for any opponent to win in an extended trade.
  • Permafrost: The slow's efficacy increases greatly with rank, but little else improves significantly. While a very valuable skill it's arguably the least important to rank up.
  • Glacial Prison: An incredible initiation tool or gank assist. Sejuani can suddenly dive forward with Arctic Assault and launch this long range stun, or simply dive headlong into the enemy team herself before firing it point blank. Combined with Permafrost as soon as the stun fades, Sejuani is a strong initiator.


Notes: It's important to Sejuani to make every trade an extended one. Brief, fleeting trades hurt her significantly. For this reason Sejuani should hold onto her Q whenever dealing with opponents who possess an escape, so that she can close on them and punish them for trading.



AP Junglers:+ Show Spoiler +

Notes: We've had significant success with Jungle Karthus, and given discussion of Jungle Morgana I'd like to expand our testing in this area. There are a number of AP champions with plenty of potential in the jungle, and who deserve analysis. Testing for this week will focus on the following champions:
  • Morgana
  • Gragas
  • Fizz
  • Any other possibilities who are not wholly screwed without blue on their first clear.

I'm really emphasizing blue-independence because you simply can't assume you'll have blue, especially as unorthodox junglers tend to invite invasions. While champions like Cassiopeia, Malzahar, and Galio might seem like good options, they simply cannot jungle with any effectiveness unless they have blue buff.



Abduction/Hook Compositions:+ Show Spoiler +

Notes: In the past we played around with the Hook composition, consisting of Darius Top, Diana Mid, Nautilus Jungle, Thresh AD, and Blitz Support. It was obnoxious, but brittle in the face of bans and counter-picks. However, the possibility of expanding the notion out into an Abduction composition (which has fallen by the way side) came up in discussion.

The most important pick for this strategy is Thresh, as he can literally play any role while still fitting into the composition. All other picks are essentially optional, but should consist of a balance between isolating an opponent and preventing the opposing team from rushing to their rescue. As such, potential picks include (but are not limited to):
  • Solo A: Darius, Singed, Lee Sin
  • Solo B: Diana, Orianna, Anivia, Gragas, Ahri
  • Jungle: Nautilus, Volibear, Lee Sin, Hecarim, Skarner
  • Support: Blitz, Alistar, Janna
  • AD: Tristana, Vayne, Jayce, Urgot

Some key champions to ban or counter-pick include Kayle, Lulu, Shen, Thresh or any other champion who excels at saving an isolated ally.

"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
April 05 2013 17:45 GMT
#968
Decent chance I may hop in if testing is still going on later on in the evening!
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-05 20:09:09
April 05 2013 19:48 GMT
#969
I think you should scrap support Zilean for support Annie.

-GP10 Quints
-Hybrid Pen reds
-GP10 seals (or armor)
-CDR glyphs (or MR or flat MP5)

9/0/21

R>Q>W>E

Theory is to abuse Annie's extremely long AA range to harass low-ranged AD carries to get richer than the enemy support by abusing pickpocket to get a free 4-6 GP10 depending on how much you can harass. Should work well against Vayne or MF but bad vs Caitlyn/Kog/Ez (if you insist on using support Annie vs those guys I would use armor marks + seals at least). Use gold advantage and laningpower to suppress enemy vision, then make plays with her ridiculously strong flash-tibbers to either kill your own lane, gank mid, or gank their jungler etc. Once tibbers is out you can also go pick up easy dragons.

Build a sightstone first and then try to get Liandry which should give you more than sufficient damage as a support. Land a good tibbers in teamfights and then back the fuck out and recharge your stun. I would aim to be highly conservative with your mana because you're aiming to avoid the standard philo stone which I feel negatively affects her impact and delays her 2 core items. In lane just keep stun up to zone and harass with auto. Use shield to charge up stun while it's down or if you absolutely need to get stun up quickly, steal a (ranged creep) CS with Q.
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
April 06 2013 07:41 GMT
#970
On April 06 2013 04:48 Juicyfruit wrote:
Theory is to abuse Annie's extremely long AA range to harass low-ranged AD carries to get richer than the enemy support by abusing pickpocket to get a free 4-6 GP10 depending on how much you can harass. .

I've played AP Annie w/ support in bot lane. The problem with her range against someone like Vayne is that Annie's frontswing animation is slow enough to where the Vayne could trade back with you. On top of that, without some sort of AD, the damage is pretty insignificant, so counting on harass with support Annie is not particularly reliable.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 09:21:55
April 06 2013 09:15 GMT
#971
On April 06 2013 16:41 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2013 04:48 Juicyfruit wrote:
Theory is to abuse Annie's extremely long AA range to harass low-ranged AD carries to get richer than the enemy support by abusing pickpocket to get a free 4-6 GP10 depending on how much you can harass. .

I've played AP Annie w/ support in bot lane. The problem with her range against someone like Vayne is that Annie's frontswing animation is slow enough to where the Vayne could trade back with you. On top of that, without some sort of AD, the damage is pretty insignificant, so counting on harass with support Annie is not particularly reliable.


Well for one thing, you harass when they go for last hits, so they can't retaliate without missing CS, and with your Q-stun and flame shield they won't able to out-trade you before they buy their items. Since you're playing support and not the carry you have every opportunity to auto-harass; opportunities that present themselves fairly often when you outrange the other guy and aren't worried about cs yourself. Furthermore, you aren't really relying on chunking them out of lane with auto's because at the end of the day Annie's strength lies in her all-ins which is freaking strong even on full-HP heroes.
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
April 07 2013 20:04 GMT
#972
After reviewing support Syndra, I think Monte was right in that grail would've been better than crucible. When I watched the replays there were plenty of times when I wish I had my stun up, but it just wasn't there and it would've been much more helpful if I didn't have to wait for the extra 2 or 3 seconds. Also, Morgana's spellshield gave me nightmares, lol. 5 Sphere ult did 200 damage after spellshield.

Also, Morello's over Ice Shard would've been better too, I just thought Ice Shard Rammus would've been cool but it was actually underwhelming.
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
April 09 2013 20:29 GMT
#973
i've been testing some zephyr builds and hydra builds lately...

the other day, for vayne i was planning on going botrk/shiv/zephyr, but the game completed before zephyr was completed. they did have a team that had a lot of cc though, and i finished QSS before starting zephyr.

yesterday, on vi i tried spiritstone/zephyr. it was fun, and with swifties/zephyr you have 444 ms which should let you keep up to apply your passive. i planned on building tanky after that but the game ended. (madred's might be better than SS, because i forgot that i wanted to go tenacity on the ss and that zephyr gives tenacity.)

on jungle riven i tried spiritstone/hydra/lizard elder/LW/frozen mallet. it was actually really fun. if sona landed an ult on a clump of people, by myself i could get 3 of them down to half life before the stun wore off and before i used the shockwave on my ult.
black cleaver might have been a better buy than LW, though, given riven's combos and in conjunction with hydra. definitely wanna try that some more.
Lightswarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada966 Posts
April 10 2013 16:42 GMT
#974
what do you guys think of getting on person on each team to be the shotcaller and every1 else listen to that person. might be hard, but interesting to see the effects of that kind of coordination
Team[AoV]
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-10 17:14:26
April 10 2013 17:12 GMT
#975
It will not work unless everyone's playing on a level where they can already think for themselves. A shotcaller works best to affirm a decision that everyone else already has in mind, and simply makes sure everyone is aware that they're committing to that decision. In the end there's always 1 optimal decision in every instance, and the better players are on the team the more likely everyone will recognize the good ideas and will be on the same page to begin with.

You can still have an experienced players making calls for his teammates, but in that case it's highly stressful for the shotcaller and you'll run into cases of poor response rate and poor execution when the good calls take the lower level player by surprise and it takes them a second or two to process what he's been told, which is enough time to ruin the whole play.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-10 23:17:00
April 10 2013 19:20 GMT
#976
basically agree with juicyfruit

like its good to confirm situations like "should we take dragon even though we're all a little low" instead of wiffle waffling around for a few seconds and losing the opportunity. having someone who can just "shift the balance" in those sort of situations is good.

So... how viable would a half jungle/ top lane with a mid and tri bot lane be? First have your jungler grab blue/red and kind of do the first clear but hold top lane afterwards. Not lane would have like Taric + Leona with an AD. You lose out on jungle experience and farm, but enemy AD is going to get zoned pretty hard for the first few levels unless he's like Cait or someone with a strong long range farming skill.

After a few levels, I guess the enemy jungler would be at a point where he could help bot lane, so I'm not sure what he could do there.

I think this idea has been tried before, I'm pretty sure there's some terrible problem with it that I;m just overlooking.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
lilwisper
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2515 Posts
April 11 2013 17:11 GMT
#977
I would think that the XP/GP penalty for having 3 people in the lane for an extended time would be a major flaw. 2 is already giving you a hit so 3 would be that much worse.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
April 11 2013 19:16 GMT
#978
Taric, Pantheon + ADC tri lane would be pretty brutal and will easily result in a tower dive first blood if played correctly.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-11 19:28:44
April 11 2013 19:28 GMT
#979
I feel like something that's really important in the "Abduction composition" are, in addition to the "grabbers" are people to follow up on the grab. It's no good when you get a good grab and you can't finish someone off before the rest of the opposing team is just like "CHAAAAAAAAAAAARGE"

Also, Diana's vacuum really isn't much of a grab, it's more like a ... cluster-creator - better combo'd with AOE teamfight power rather than instant pickoff power. However, she does provide excellent burst for the 'follow up on a grab' you want in this kind of comp.

Also, remember that Trilane is effectively the same as a jungler who gets just doublebuffs, then camps bot constantly. Remember in DotA that the trilaner is also going to be busy in the jungle stacking creep camps anyway. It's just that in LoL, you can't stack them, so you kill the important ones instead. (You really don't want to leave your buffs up for the enemy jungler to take for free.)
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
April 11 2013 19:29 GMT
#980
On April 12 2013 04:28 sylverfyre wrote:
I feel like something that's really important in the "Abduction composition" are, in addition to the "grabbers" are people to follow up on the grab. It's no good when you get a good grab and you can't finish someone off before the rest of the opposing team is just like "CHAAAAAAAAAAAARGE"

Also, Diana's vacuum really isn't much of a grab, it's more like a ... cluster-creator - better combo'd with AOE teamfight power rather than instant pickoff power. However, she does provide excellent burst for the 'follow up on a grab' you want in this kind of comp.

Also, remember that Trilane is effectively the same as a jungler who gets just doublebuffs, then camps bot constantly. Remember in DotA that the trilaner is also going to be busy in the jungle stacking creep camps anyway. It's just that in LoL, you can't stack them, so you kill the important ones instead. (You really don't want to leave your buffs up for the enemy jungler to take for free.)

you can replace diana with morg and use morg q to set up an easy hook
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
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