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On March 12 2013 03:52 57 Corvette wrote:
So I tried Sej top in a ranked 5 game with some friends, and I got completely destroyed by the opponent lee sin. It was probably just skill difference, but he was retardedly agressive and just forced me to sit under tower until he destroyed it.
Even with 3 or 4 ganks from nocturne, I couldn't do anything about him and he snowballed into winning it for his team.
Lee seems like he would be innately strong vs sejuani just beacuse his mobility allows him to quickly trade and get out while avoiding sejuani's sustained damage output. Sej just doesn't seem like a strong top to me at any rate because of her extremely predictable kit. Maybe you could surprise someone with no experience against her, and she should support ganks well, but after a few games she should be extremely predictable in damage output and escapability. Not much room to outplay anyone on her, and her scaling isn't spectacular either so a farm lane isn't necessarily desirable. Not to mention her complete lack of sustain if she can't trade effectively.
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For the curious I am almost certain to be at MLG Dallas on Friday, which means I will not be around to coordinate T.R.O.L.L.S. testing. If any of you are going to be there let me know and we can meet up for the fun times. Otherwise, the next official T.R.O.L.L.S. testing session will not be until the 22nd.
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I don't even think many troll members were even on tonight lolol.
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On March 16 2013 11:57 BlackPaladin wrote:
I don't even think many troll members were even on tonight lolol.
Yeah, I saw like 5-6 people online and 3-4 were ingame lol
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Yo we gotta keep this place clean, you kids are filthy. And who pooped in the sink?
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AD Nami?
Her AA range is fine, animation is pretty smooth. Skill order something like QEWEER, Q for stun, E for damage/slow, W for heal, maxxing E as it gives insane damage and slow, allowing you to outtrade/burst most lane opponents with a EWQ- type combo.
Passive gives lots of mobility, and ult/Q/E give even more escape.
Pretty flexible, allows you to depend on yourself in SoloQ-- you can make plays in lane, initiate and keep yourself alive without teammates. Her base AD is alright, though her AS is pretty low.
I think this might work with either a lane bully (Taric/Leona/Thresh etc.) or even maybe a Soraka-- you're basically self-sufficient, and the extra mana/hp from the walking talking flask lets you bully.
I played a couple games with it, felt alright in lane. I'm a pretty bad AD, but I still managed to "win" against a Tristana and a Ezreal-- couldn't quite kill them, but forced them to back a lot. Enemy team(s) got a Garen and Akali fed as shit though, so we lost anyways.
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I like the concept for AD Nami. I feel like W/Q are better first choices to max because sustain/wave clear are more important than a slow on autos. She actually has better base attack speed than Ezreal and decent per/level scaling, but she's definitely behind carries like Ashe in that regard. It's worth testing.
In watching MLG I've noted GG's strategy and I think it's worth testing as well. Regardless of team composition they really, really prioritize dragon over turrets. It's extremely common for them to be down 3 turrets but be up enough dragons to have a less than 1k gold deficit, if not be even. Then, around 20 minutes, they start forcing team fights. The moment they win a team fight they're basically guaranteed to go up 2-4k gold on their opponents between towers and dragon. Their (still in progress) against KT Rolster B is a very good study in both how it can go right and how it can go wrong.
I'd also like to resurrect Hook Comp, and modify it into a more formal Abduction Comp. The super important pick for the composition is Thresh, who should be first picked every time. He simply can be put practically anywhere and be effective (Support, AD, Jungle, even Top). Other picks for the roles include: - Solo A: Darius, Singed, Lee Sin
- Solo B: Diana, Orianna, Gragas, Ahri
- Jungle: Nautilus, Volibear, Lee Sin, Hecarim, Skarner
- Support: Blitz, Alistar, Janna
- AD: Tristana, Vayne, Jayce, Urgot
The basic idea is to isolate a single enemy while keeping the enemy team from arriving before they are killed. You don't want nothing but displacement abilities, but also the ability to delay/prevent the enemy team from arriving. You also need sufficient burst to kill the opponent before they can escape or help can arrive.
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Hadn't thought about using Q as a waveclear on Nami, but the AOE is a bit larger than it looks so it should work. Flat mana cost, lower CDR higher damage, so I kind of like it. I don't know why you'd want a wave clear so early on, though. Well, she's probably going to be played as a huge bully, so maybe you'd want it... I'm not sure.
W has a flat cooldown, more heal/mp as you level it up. I think W over E in a non-Soraka lane-- you need the sustain, and the mana cost on E is a little large without some sort of mana sustain. I'm definitely liking having a Raka and Taric support. Both heal a lot, Raka lets you play incredibly self-sufficiently, whereas Taric lets you chain CC an opponent really hard. You're Q is 1.25, Taric's E is 1.5, then you're probably going to get ~2 sec of slow from the 3 procs of your E. Add on your ult, that's another 2-4 seconds of slow and a knockup. That's plenty of time to kill someone.
Taking dragons over towers to keep up in gold sounds good, but that's not counting a non-gold resource: map control. You lose towers, you lose map control on that area of the map-- buffs, jungle, etc. Lanes also push farther, and you end up getting spread out further and further. To try and compensate for that, you need to buy lots of wards, which costs even more gold. Losing control of your jungle lets the other team get more ahead.
Maybe its not so bad, but I feel like this sort of strategy gives up a lot. Like sure, you could win a teamfight and then take a tower or two afterwards, but if you're down 3 towers and up, say, 2 or 3 dragons, you can't let that remain the status quo-- you need to get a teamfight and win it hard. Otherwise you're bleeding gold for wards, and meanwhile the enemy team is taking away your jungle farm and buffs. Eventually, that advantage in map control is going to start showing. It's very dependent on winning a teamfight within a certain timeframe, or the game will likely get away you barring some huge mistakes from one side or the another
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Isn't Skarner the quintessential abduction jungler?
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On March 18 2013 11:52 ticklishmusic wrote:Taking dragons over towers to keep up in gold sounds good, but that's not counting a non-gold resource: map control. You lose towers, you lose map control on that area of the map-- buffs, jungle, etc. Lanes also push farther, and you end up getting spread out further and further. To try and compensate for that, you need to buy lots of wards, which costs even more gold. Losing control of your jungle lets the other team get more ahead.
Maybe its not so bad, but I feel like this sort of strategy gives up a lot. Like sure, you could win a teamfight and then take a tower or two afterwards, but if you're down 3 towers and up, say, 2 or 3 dragons, you can't let that remain the status quo-- you need to get a teamfight and win it hard. Otherwise you're bleeding gold for wards, and meanwhile the enemy team is taking away your jungle farm and buffs. Eventually, that advantage in map control is going to start showing. It's very dependent on winning a teamfight within a certain timeframe, or the game will likely get away you barring some huge mistakes from one side or the another
Lost towers only translate into a significant increase in wards if you weren't warding enough in the first place. By default your top, mid, and jungler should be warding roughly every 3-4 minutes regardless, and combined with your support all jungle entrances should thus be covered. When towers fall early what changes isn't really the number of wards which are needed as much as their location, as Baron is not yet safe and dragon (which you've been taking) is easily timed. The only time more wards are really needed is when you go for dragon (which again, you should have been dropping extra wards for anyway, and thanks to sightstone this doesn't come at appreciable cost).
You'll note that GG's strategy was precisely to start making things happen around 20-22 minutes. At that point you'll have exchanged 2-3 turrets for 2-3 dragons, and inner turrets are not a fair trade for dragon in most circumstances. That's when the impetus is really on you to start making things happen, especially as all the enemy outer turrets should be pushovers by this point. This is when winning a teamfight suddenly catapults you thousands of gold ahead.
The difficulty is simply ensuring that you never lose a dragon. Once you've lost one you're no longer looking at a sub-1k gold difference, but potentially far more. It also requires coordination and discipline, which we're not exactly overflowing with in TL RnD. Still, I'm hoping that our opponents' similar lack of discipline will make up for it so long as we all collapse on Dragon in a timely manner.
On March 18 2013 12:45 Alaric wrote:
Isn't Skarner the quintessential abduction jungler?
He was, up until they nerfed his ultimate. Now that Flash escapes it, his abduction isn't guaranteed. He also is somewhat meh in the current jungle, making him a less than ideal choice.
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the problem for that kind of approach, monte, is when you have the opposing support going for a fast sightstone+oracles, like Madlife seems to prefer. It counters any kind of doublebgp5 early on and really snowballs when you start taking towers. Towers >dragons in competitive play in my experience.
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United States23745 Posts
Probably terrible, but I really wanna try Bulwark/BoC/Captain boots as a focused split push build. Elise seems like the perfect candidate to try this out. Guess it really just depends on how much stronger the minions get and whether or not it's worth the gold. Not sure how much defense they would get from Bulwark (I think they just changed it so they got more stats) but 15% more damage and 20% move speed seems like it should make a somewhat noticeable difference. Plus on Elise it would work on her Spiderlings and since she does % damage not having tons of AP doesn't cripple her.
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On March 18 2013 22:43 necrosed wrote:
the problem for that kind of approach, monte, is when you have the opposing support going for a fast sightstone+oracles, like Madlife seems to prefer. It counters any kind of doublebgp5 early on and really snowballs when you start taking towers. Towers >dragons in competitive play in my experience.
I would normally agree, if it wasn't for GG continuously deploying this strategy to great effect. The games they lost against KT Rolster B arguably had more to do with positioning/team composition/etc. than this strategy, and the game they convincingly won was arguably because of this strategy. It's also something I've noticed happening in games with other teams, unless you have a crushing lead the outer turrets will eventually fall, so teams whose lead or parity with their opponents is entirely due to outer turrets will plummet behind if they lose a mid-game team fight.
It should also be noted that GG Edward frequently rushed Sightstone/Oracle's as well.
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Surprised to not see Anivia on Monte's list since she brings ult/wall to the fights and even though she doesn't have a pull she makes it extraordinarily hard for the enemy team to follow him in since we all know how running 4v5 into Anivia ult goes.
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Yeah, the zone power of Anivia is very similar to what Orianna brings to the table.
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Welp, Quinn free week. Time to try it mid.
First thoughts: Strong ganks, weak in lane. AA range and lack of safe poke is debilitating.
I'm starting with E rather than Q because it's less mana, more guaranteed poke at level 1, and E+passive at level 1 is only 5 less damage than a Q which may or may not hit.
I ran Exhaust a couple times which made that level 6 gank terrifying. Two games running Exhaust I went bot at 6 and immediately got a doublekill. But against long range mids Exhaust couldn't keep me alive in bad situations in lane. I think Exhaust might work in a favorable matchup and Barrier or maybe even Ghost in a hard one. She will have a lot of hard matchups I think and is maybe better for a situational pick.
Will update as I keep trying it.
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On March 18 2013 11:03 Seuss wrote:I like the concept for AD Nami. I feel like W/Q are better first choices to max because sustain/wave clear are more important than a slow on autos. She actually has better base attack speed than Ezreal and decent per/level scaling, but she's definitely behind carries like Ashe in that regard. It's worth testing. In watching MLG I've noted GG's strategy and I think it's worth testing as well. Regardless of team composition they really, really prioritize dragon over turrets. It's extremely common for them to be down 3 turrets but be up enough dragons to have a less than 1k gold deficit, if not be even. Then, around 20 minutes, they start forcing team fights. The moment they win a team fight they're basically guaranteed to go up 2-4k gold on their opponents between towers and dragon. Their (still in progress) against KT Rolster B is a very good study in both how it can go right and how it can go wrong. I'd also like to resurrect Hook Comp, and modify it into a more formal Abduction Comp. The super important pick for the composition is Thresh, who should be first picked every time. He simply can be put practically anywhere and be effective (Support, AD, Jungle, even Top). Other picks for the roles include: - Solo A: Darius, Singed, Lee Sin
- Solo B: Diana, Orianna, Gragas, Ahri
- Jungle: Nautilus, Volibear, Lee Sin, Hecarim, Skarner
- Support: Blitz, Alistar, Janna
- AD: Tristana, Vayne, Jayce, Urgot
The basic idea is to isolate a single enemy while keeping the enemy team from arriving before they are killed. You don't want nothing but displacement abilities, but also the ability to delay/prevent the enemy team from arriving. You also need sufficient burst to kill the opponent before they can escape or help can arrive.
A suggestion for the hook comp is Anivia, she does an amazing job of using her ult/wall to zone the other team from the hooked target, and does good burst to the target.
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Biggest problem with Quinn mid I'm having so far is that I've yet to have a jungler give me blue buff, and they don't really understand that it's like a super big deal for her. 28 seconds off ult, 12 seconds off her self ward, and lets her spam Q to waveclear.
It basically lets you gank a lot more. Her power spike seems to be 6-11 and you want to get as many ganks as possible in in that window.
However, I find myself wondering why I'm not playing AD Twisted Fate mid to accomplish the same goddamn thing.
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Because AD Twisted Fate is terrible.
I very much prefer maxing Q over E on Quinn. The range on Q is significantly greater, and using it does not put your primary escape ability on cooldown. It also gives you wave clear, which is critical for champions looking to roam or even for simple lane control, and makes it difficult for your opponent to stand near creeps. E also brings you into easy range of your opponents abilities, which can easily be fatal.
Anivia is definitely worth grabbing for abduction comp. It's my bad for leaving her off the list.
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EPT
