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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
Bruiser Mid (noct/j4/etc) (MF or other AD carry jungler ;p - I suggest MF just because I've seen it work a few times courtesy of slightly-famous TLer Kaal. In non-serious normals though..) Usual top (cho or w/e) I believe that would fill your "non-tristana mid" qualifier  | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 09 2013 05:56 Inschato wrote: Double AP Bot Bruiser Mid (noct/j4/etc) (MF or other AD carry jungler ;p - I suggest MF just because I've seen it work a few times courtesy of slightly-famous TLer Kaal. In non-serious normals though..) Usual top (cho or w/e) I believe that would fill your "non-tristana mid" qualifier Eh, I'd rather just run the MF mid with any combination of the others listed top/jungle(They can all do both, maybe Noc excluded from some possible weak top matchups). She doesn't have a typical 'escape' mid but if played right her movespeeed makes her a tough gank. It'll be up to the person playing her to be on top of warding as a mid, something a lot of people don't (like to) do. Urgot is another mid ADC choice, especially if someone else has a lot of carry potential themselves or you run a midgame dominating team(try to get a big enough item lead by 30-35 minutes that a late game team won't be able to leverage that advantage as well), picks like Kayle, Diana, Kha, etc. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 09 2013 04:36 Juicyfruit wrote: Not sure Q>W>E is the way to go on support Zilean, because there's no way you have enough mana to sustain out of combat W spam or QWQ spam with the typical support items. Edit: a compromise could probably be made to level W up to a level that's sustainable (somewhere between 2-4, not sure which) and then maxing E. You don't need to do QWQ spam for supp zil. It's a lot safer to harass with one Q+aa at a time and saves a lot of mana to boot. QWQ only when you realy want to go for the kill. But yeah, I can see Q>W~E having its advantages. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Speaking of, here's the first half of the AP Champion -> Jungle list. Blue means the champion is extremely Blue-dependant. *this does not mean they're good, just that they can clear without major issues.
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On March 09 2013 00:26 Requizen wrote: Er, MPen, fixed. Mobos is personal because I like to roam. I tried Tear a bit, it's fine, but I prefer the CDR and defenses on Athene's. I guess you could go Tear/CDR boots if you want a similar effect, but you'll be more susceptible to magic poke from Lulu, Soraka, and Sona (among others). Ah. That makes sense. Personally I prefer CDR Boots on him, alongside my masteries and a single codex this puts me at 35% CDR (haven't felt the need for CDR runes to hit 40) for relative cheap money and with a "liquid" item flow if I have to back in awkward timings. If I may chime in on the TROLLS session regarding support Zilean, I've found him the strongest with Vayne simply for the synergy they have later in the game the mobility he gives her makes it very easy for her to do her thing and if she messes up -- well, she gets another chance, there's nothing more disheartening than facing an immortal Vayne on amphetamine. On March 09 2013 05:56 Inschato wrote: Double AP Bot Bruiser Mid (noct/j4/etc) (MF or other AD carry jungler ;p - I suggest MF just because I've seen it work a few times courtesy of slightly-famous TLer Kaal. In non-serious normals though..) Usual top (cho or w/e) I believe that would fill your "non-tristana mid" qualifier You can still jungle Twitch in S3, you just need puppy eyes and beg your team for a super leash. ;-) | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 09 2013 07:59 Seuss wrote: Are either of the bruisers AP? That kind of setup would work well with an AP jungle. Speaking of, here's the first half of the AP Champion -> Jungle list. Blue means the champion is extremely Blue-dependant. [so]Strikeout[/so] means they have significant issues clearing. Bold means the champion has potential. *this does not mean they're good, just that they can clear without major issues.
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
I'll fill in the rest of the list later. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:51 Sermokala wrote: you missed taric,thresh, udyr, maokai, teemo Udyr and Maokai were intentionally skipped - I see no reason to put obvious information about explored territory down. Udyr isn't even really AP, even though he has a couple AP ratios, you'd never build AP items on him. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Downsides: average clearspeed, gets a little low, and has trouble with first few camps Upsides: strong ganks, safe from invades, reasonable invades herself, not blue dependent | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
Twisted Fate (maybe not totally desperately blue reliant, with blue cards?) i know a guy who jungles TF for fun but he builds no AP, gets wriggles and supporty cdr items like locket and shurelias, and skill orders like he's playing the AD TF of old (no points in Q at all)i asked him why and he said you just cant get enough AP together in the jungle for TF to do anything useful in teamfights so you just become a 40% cdr stunbot instead | ||
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Magus
Canada450 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:52 sob3k wrote: how did you manage to jungle annie even reasonably? I tried her like three times and I just couldn't clear, ran out of mana like worse than Cass, it felt really really awful and she doesn't ramp up nearly as smooth as cass. With Cass you can get tear and just mash Q literally 100% of the time and clear ok. Annie just didn't work at all unless you put a bunch into the shield, which is just...really really bad. I only ran the first clear, so any issues beyond that were largely ignored unless I had prior experience. I cleared with Annie using my Akali runes (Spell Vamp Quints) and masteries, QEQW. Knowing how to kite Blue when you're alone helps in terms of survivability, and she's not completely screwed without it because she can just last hit small creeps (she's better off with it, but she isn't completely screwed). But she isn't bolded because she's difficult, flimsy, and unideal. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I suck at Cassiopeia bot lane. Especially against two bruisers. >_> I think running it would also be a lot easier on purple side, because having almost no blue buffs as Cass was somewhat miserable. I feel like it's a lot harder to land her q in a 2v2 situation than it is in a 1v1, because there's two people darting in and out of q range, and even if you land it, it's harder to predict their movement. I think if it were a standard ADC/support lane that would be a lot easier to deal with. My itemization was also sketchy at best. You don't want to be on the receiving end of a 2v1 Jayce/support lane, because it is pretty brutal. The support can zone you out, letting Jayce have clear accelerated shock blasts- if he misses, he can switch to hammer form and regain his mana pretty quickly, so he can keep lobbing shock blasts almost indefinitely. If you move out from your tower at all, your risk of dying is pretty high. Once you die, Jayce's w lets him chunk the turret extremely quickly. Worked quite well with Thresh- after a certain point, a pull was pretty much guaranteed death. Also there was this hilarious moment where we had to deal with a 4v2 when we switched top to try to kill the turret, and Monty got away on Thresh with <100 hp, and we turned it around for several kills when our jungler showed up. I think this deserves some more exploration. If you know the enemy team is going to try to swap for an early tower kill, Jayce's early kill potential is a lot higher than most ADC's, and his power spike is much earlier, so a Jayce/support combo might be robust enough to deal with the 5 minute tower rushes seen in LCS games? I'm not sure if this is actually the case, but I think it'd be worth trying this against a team with Cait/Lulu that's trying to steamroll towers as fast as possible. Also, I love stattik shiv on this dude- you become extremely fast, you spit lightning out like a mad man, and your wave clear becomes pretty much instant while in hammer form. :> Ryze/Leona is somewhat legit as a bot lane. It has some weaknesses, but the kill potential is extremely high. The main weakness is its really hard to farm on Ryze without using his spells, and his waveclear is atrocious in general. However, if Ryze lands a rune prison, it's almost a guaranteed kill because Leona can follow up so easily. It's sort of awkward when Ryze is farming, because if he burns his Q, it's hard to initiate as Leona because you know his burst is going to be lower for the next 2-3 seconds. I think to compensate for the poor waveclear, it would be wise to have the solo top be someone who is an extremely strong pusher (Jayce? Singed?)- we had a Shen, but he never had any items to help with clearing waves, so at some point I felt like we were just getting split pushed to death. It may even be beneficial to have the strong pusher mid and have the ADC top- or just have Jayce as the AD and put him mid. So when mid turret goes down, the mid can just rotate bottom and clear that tower instead of it taking forever and an age to ever take bot tower. Or maybe we just needed our ADC to come bottom sooner. Doing 2 man baron rushes is hard to do in practice, because top lane has to roll his lane or its just too risky to do it. Udyr/Nasus/Sion is an unholy trinity of CC. Bear/dog/undead combo op. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Baron Rushes have been universally unsuccessful. Taking Baron at 25 minutes isn't a rush, it's normal. One of the big problems with our attempts at this strategy is that T.R.O.L.L.S. has very few players who are comfortable playing top lane, let alone comfortable playing the specific champions we hope to use. We may wish to move to a more comprehensive plan, or pick safer mid/bottom lanes to allow the jungler to focus 100% of their efforts top. It's hard to make many comments about AD Jayce because it's always easy to win a 2v1 lane unless you derp hard. The fact that Jayce/Thresh could zone out Zed is no surprise, and had there been greater pressure top lane we could definitely have pushed the tower quickly and safely. The more I play AD Thresh the more I like it. There are some disagreements about how, exactly, he should be built, but I believe he's as viable as any other AD. He's innately strong against the diving bruisers we commonly see today due to his passive, shield, significant self-peel, and mixed damage types (opponents can't simply build Armor). These same attributes allow him to easily win trades in lane. Combined with his ridiculous gank assist, His primary weakness is his range, but with an aggressive support (either an all-in type like Leona/Taric or a harass type like Lulu/Sona) he has all the room he needs to farm and go toe to toe with his opponents. Top Sejuani appears entirely legitimate. Regardless of the skill level or experience of the player testing her, Sejuani top has been almost universally frightening (even 1v2). While she may not have been put through her full paces of yet, it seems clear that she is at least a viable pick against top laners who lack the ability to engage in brief, burst trades and then disengage. Like Renekton, she need only stack health to become a terror and win the lane. I'll finish my appraisal of the remaining potential AP junglers some other time. I don't think sylverfyre is far off the mark (though Orianna should definitely be labeled blue-dependent). | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
1) Should be much easier for blue side than purple side 2) You NEED to win top-lane and kill the top tower. Ideally you force purple top to last-hit at their second-tower. 3) Best time to attempt a baron rush is the timing window when purple mid goes to get their blue buff, which is something you can predict. 4) It's best to have some plan in mind to abuse the window of opportunity where your team CAN do baron and theirs cannot. A gameplan that revolves around cheesing unsuspecting teams is alright, but a gameplan that can outmaneuver and counter potential counterplays is even better. For instance, if the enemy team catches you attempting to do baron, whether it's by luck or good intuition, you could to fall back and resume standard farming for a couple of minutes. Since the enemy team is going to be overzealous about having baron vision at this point, you can starve their jungle out of gold by repeatedly killing the wards they place at baron, and if they are paying too much attention to baron, you 5-man push bot instead. Of course this is all situational. | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
Even with 3 or 4 ganks from nocturne, I couldn't do anything about him and he snowballed into winning it for his team. | ||
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