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Will just write some stuff, will most likely never try with you ( ;
Mainly for Double ap with the mordekaiser suggestion. Maybe some thought help(s):
So for that we should first say why are aps played like they are played right now? 2 reasons: because of the blue and because of the xp. So playing extremly level dependend aps like Lux bot (she starts getting usefull lvl 16 before not really) or someone like AP Kogmaw doesnt work that well. Someone like Nidalee would work better as a concept(no I dont think she is good just level independend). Due to her only really needing lvl 9.
The second reason is the Bluebuff, which can easily be avoided by playing the AP on purple side botlane and/or picking soraka/not needing that much mana.
There are also 2 ways to play the ap botlane you either try to farm up or you try to all in hard. Personally I dont really like the farming path that much even though its ok, played twice against 2 botlanes (krepo/froggen in solo q with cassio/raka and genja/pepper with ziggs/raka). Both were really good until I got a certain amount of lifesteal and could outsustain it. The other concept with hard allin I like more. I played today vs Krepo/froggen playing Brand/annie botlane which was actually quite scary once we gave them a slight edge they pretty much flashed on cd on me.
One thing which I thought a while ago about is:
Picking an agressive lane bot (the mentioned annie/bran came into my mind or something like cassio/taric or annie). So basically at least 1 stun and high dmg. Playing a Zilean mid(mainly for the xp aura). Both botlaners take xp quints and skill the increased xp in utility (now in s3 its probably even better). Most important thing is: both skill flash. And you want to try to get an early drake. So you pick a strong drake jungler like Lee. You plan a certain drake timing (I dont know the minute because that was only a theory I had). The botlane will try to flash on the enemy botlane, which will most likely flash away. And exactly when flash is up again they will flash into them and maybe kill because of the lower Flash cooldown + higher level
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Fun fact, along with associated potential for disgust. Cho's Vorpal Spikes procs Liandry's. %HP burn on autoattack.
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I wonder if you couldn't just run Heimerdinger without smite for the rush comp.
"ADC" = Caitlyn
"Mid" = Heimerdinger
"Jungle" = Thresh
"Top" = Olaf / Cho / whoever mang
"Support" = Alistar
Heimer starts with mana manipulator + 2 pots. Cait dorans blade, Ali standard support stuff. Thresh start not sure, he really doesn't want to start machete.
You get Cait traps, Heimer turrets, Thresh knockback and Alistar knockback for a crazy disengage. Heimer passive, Ali heal and mana manipulator for a ton of sustain. Thresh hooks, Heimer stun, and at 6 Ali can tower dive.
Could also put Alistar in the jungle position, that's also oldschool legit.
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One thing I would like to have added to the agenda if possible is Sejuani top. I can write a little bit similar to what Monte has for the other things in the agenda.
+ Show Spoiler +Sejuani top
Skill order: The first few levels are variable, while going R>W>E>Q
Primary Items: Warmogs, Spirit Visage, Sunfire Cape
Secondary Items: Liandry's Torment, Locket, Runic Bulwark, Shurelia's, I might be forgetting some here.
Notes: Not sure what to put here, but I will say that her laning phase won't be nearly as bad as many would think it to be, as long as the worst counters are avoided (which I would say to be Jayce,Olaf, and maybe Renekton).
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HMM
Cait = Barrier/Flash, 21/0/9, Dorans blade, AD / flat HP / flat mana regen / AD
Heimer = Ignite/Flash, 21/0/9, Mana Manipulator + 2 pots, Mpen / flat mana regen / flat AP / flat AP
Thresh = Exhaust/Flash, 21/0/9, Dorans Blade, AD / flat HP / flat mana regen / AD
Olaf = Normal top lane build
Alistar = Smite/Flash, 0/21/9, Faerie charm, 3 wards, 2 pots, Armor / flat mana regen / MR / flat HP
Cait/Heimer/Thresh all start with the 3 AD and 5% tower damage masteries. The 4 laners all start with mana regen and the biscuit in utility.
You start by having Alistar and Cait do red buff and give that to Cait, the other 3 do blue and give that to Olaf.
Alistar opens the game with an extra 15 MP/5 from items/runes/masteries and 3 mana potions and spams heals on the team. This is literally enough mana for him to spam rank 1 heal on cooldown infinitely.
Cait/Heimer/Thresh are all ranged and have AD and increased tower damage.
You have crazy disengage with turrets, traps, and 2 knockbacks.
You have poke with Cait autos, piltover peacemaker, and Heimer missiles/grenades.
You can engage with Thresh grab into an Alistar combo or Thresh grabbing, jumping in and then exhausting somebody.
The comp looks legit at loading, it only becomes weird once you see peoples items. Providing they believe Heimer mid is a real thing.
In other news, I would like to try Janna mid.
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On February 27 2013 08:29 JingleHell wrote:
Fun fact, along with associated potential for disgust. Cho's Vorpal Spikes procs Liandry's. %HP burn on autoattack.
Interesting... cho the new kayle with nashor/liandrys?
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ive played support zilean and i would strongly advocate getting an ap item in the build. there's a tipping point with his ult where it goes from being a fancy zhonyas to giving really substantial amounts of survivability and you don't get there with a cookie cutter support build.
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On February 27 2013 07:47 KissBlade wrote:
I'd like to suggest Mordekaiser bot for AP carries paired with say Soraka or Taric.
You can't run a melle carry bot with no cc. This isn't really any different then a mele ad carry.
On February 27 2013 06:02 Ketara wrote:
1 Lux E is 130 mana and is both her main farming skill and her main harassment skill on a ten second cooldown. Without 40% CDR you have to choose between harassing the enemy lane and clearing minions, unless the enemy lane is stupid and stands in the middle of their minions (does happen a lot!)
She is a strong lane bully early game when you don't want to be using spells on minions at all and can focus all your mana on harassing the enemy laner.
She has a strong mid game when she has a lot of damage and is allowed to roam. Her damage comes from levels. At level 10 a Lux combo does 810+2.05 AP, with a 48 second cooldown on her ult. At level 11 it does 920+2.05 AP on a 36 second cooldown. That's assuming 40% CDR. In a side lane you can't assume 40% CDR, you have to assume 24%. The difference between 48 seconds and 36 seconds at that stage of the game is critical, because it's what allows her to do things like defend sieges by ulting every minion wave, or randomly use an ult to control an objective without fear that it won't be up in the next teamfight.
The difference between a level 11 mid lane Lux with blue buff and a level 10 side lane Lux without blue buff is 110 damage and 28 seconds cooldown on her ult, given the exact same minion farm, which is incorrect because realistically mid lane is the #1 farm position.
Trust me, I have played over 350 ranked Lux games. I'm not saying she's bad in a side lane, I'm saying she's giving up a ton of her potential by not being in mid.
Karthus is probably good in a side lane too, but there's no reason why you would ever not have him solo because he's just so incredibly good at soloing. Lux is the same way.
I agree that she'd be better mid but that doesn't mean that she can't be completely out of control in bot lane. lux zyra is going to kill people. You arn't going to be using spells to farm you'll be forced to use them to attack the enemy duo but I just think that shes got some amazing ability to shut down an ad carry.
Also Urgot nasus sounds amazing we need to try that 100% Wither alone with urgots kit sounds like it'd be even better then taric urgot.
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HOW FAST CAN WE BARON?
Fun facts: Warwick can jungle on just Longsword at little to no cost to his clear speed.
Nunu is just as silly solo top as always.
Longsword builds into BotRK.
Both Nunu and Warwick have attackspeed boosters.
15 minute ee han timing.
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No, it's ee han.
Also, people have been duoing baroning with Nunu/Jax and BotRK and other combinations for a while.
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On February 27 2013 08:04 Ente wrote:
Will just write some stuff, will most likely never try with you ( ;
Mainly for Double ap with the mordekaiser suggestion. Maybe some thought help(s):
So for that we should first say why are aps played like they are played right now? 2 reasons: because of the blue and because of the xp. So playing extremly level dependend aps like Lux bot (she starts getting usefull lvl 16 before not really) or someone like AP Kogmaw doesnt work that well. Someone like Nidalee would work better as a concept(no I dont think she is good just level independend). Due to her only really needing lvl 9.
The second reason is the Bluebuff, which can easily be avoided by playing the AP on purple side botlane and/or picking soraka/not needing that much mana.
There are also 2 ways to play the ap botlane you either try to farm up or you try to all in hard. Personally I dont really like the farming path that much even though its ok, played twice against 2 botlanes (krepo/froggen in solo q with cassio/raka and genja/pepper with ziggs/raka). Both were really good until I got a certain amount of lifesteal and could outsustain it. The other concept with hard allin I like more. I played today vs Krepo/froggen playing Brand/annie botlane which was actually quite scary once we gave them a slight edge they pretty much flashed on cd on me.
One thing which I thought a while ago about is:
Picking an agressive lane bot (the mentioned annie/bran came into my mind or something like cassio/taric or annie). So basically at least 1 stun and high dmg. Playing a Zilean mid(mainly for the xp aura). Both botlaners take xp quints and skill the increased xp in utility (now in s3 its probably even better). Most important thing is: both skill flash. And you want to try to get an early drake. So you pick a strong drake jungler like Lee. You plan a certain drake timing (I dont know the minute because that was only a theory I had). The botlane will try to flash on the enemy botlane, which will most likely flash away. And exactly when flash is up again they will flash into them and maybe kill because of the lower Flash cooldown + higher level
Our experiments have largely fallen in the middle-ground between those two options. We're not running pure double AP, but AP + Support. At the same time, most of the supports we've been picking are aggressive (Blitz, Leona, Thresh, Lulu, Sona etc.). The result is a lane which is still very threatening, but doesn't collapse if it falls a little behind (in our tests, kill lanes have generally been extremely binary). You can probably fudge the lines a bit with support champions like Zyra, Fiddlesticks etc.
I'll add Mordekaiser to the list of future options for the bot lane duo, but we won't get to that this week.
On February 27 2013 08:49 Ketara wrote:
I wonder if you couldn't just run Heimerdinger without smite for the rush comp.
"ADC" = Caitlyn
"Mid" = Heimerdinger
"Jungle" = Thresh
"Top" = Olaf / Cho / whoever mang
"Support" = Alistar
Heimer starts with mana manipulator + 2 pots. Cait dorans blade, Ali standard support stuff. Thresh start not sure, he really doesn't want to start machete.
You get Cait traps, Heimer turrets, Thresh knockback and Alistar knockback for a crazy disengage. Heimer passive, Ali heal and mana manipulator for a ton of sustain. Thresh hooks, Heimer stun, and at 6 Ali can tower dive.
Could also put Alistar in the jungle position, that's also oldschool legit.
You could just run Heimerdinger mid. I think I'd prefer Lulu support over Alistar simply because she can actually contribute to the harass/wave clear. Just Cait/Heimer is a little low on pushing potential. The goal is ultimately the tower, not killing people under it.
Thresh would grab a Long Sword as he can actually help push the tower due to his range. I'm pretty sure Thresh + Caitlyn could take Red while the rest of the team grabs Blue for Heimer/whoever. We'd need to test it to be sure (and have wards down in real games to watch for invasions).
On February 27 2013 23:34 Tooplark wrote:
HOW FAST CAN WE BARON?
Fun facts: Warwick can jungle on just Longsword at little to no cost to his clear speed.
Nunu is just as silly solo top as always.
Longsword builds into BotRK.
Both Nunu and Warwick have attackspeed boosters.
15 minute ee han timing.
There are a fair number of jungle/top combinations that can grab an early Baron. That's a good subject for investigation/experimentation. Some potential champions:- Nasus: His ultimate does 2117 damage to Baron over 15 seconds, roughly 1/4th of its total health. Combined with hard hitting Qs, Nasus could contribute a heck of a lot to a Baron rush.
- Udyr: A good candidate for BotRK, especially with a top-lane Tiger build.
- Cho'gath: Probably better when jungling, but bringing 1000 damage to the table is nothing to sniff at.
- Nunu: A support/top Nunu wandering off when no one is looking brings a lot to the table when rushing Baron.
- Lee Sin: His shield spam and sustain are excellent for fast Barons. Whether using Madred's from the jungle or BotRK in a top lane, he contributes a lot.
- Warwick: His ultimate is hilarious with BotRK. Grabbing Baron with it is basically a bonus.
I'm sure there are others, but those are all the most obvious examples. You'd want to throw down a couple pink wards before Baron spawned to hide your activity, but it would probably work against a lot of unsuspecting teams.
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The idea behind the Alistar isn't tower diving, but the constant sustain and preventing the enemy team from engaging. His heal heals minions which helps a lot in the early pushes. He just hangs out with the team like a bodyguard. Thresh/Heimer/Cait push down the tower, the combination of Ali heal and Heimer passive sustains the team and stops poking harass, and if anybody does a hard engage Ali just knocks them away.
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If the enemy team is lacking in wave clear that could work, but I think Lulu has a more versatile disengage (*every* spell she has helps) and is generally better due to her pushing power (and the fact that she can actually attack the tower).
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Isn't Janna also good for tower push comps?
Good poke/disengage, speed boost and shield. Only disadvantage is no sustain.
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Janna is a good pick, but at the moment Lulu is a very popular pick, and grabbing her prevents the enemy team from doing so. Janna isn't popular at all right now, so if the enemy team doesn't see the composition coming it's unlikely they'll pick her.
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It wouldn't be bad to deny the enemy team Lulu for a rush comp because she can defend towers like a champ.
So can Janna, though. All Janna has to do is max Q, a maxed Q with no AP kills the minion wave with total safety.
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Janna has to reach level at least level 7 before Q can one shot any minions, which will take her quite a while in a rush scenario. You can also mess up her line nuke by drawing the minions off to the side. Janna is good at defending a siege, but she's so weak in normal play that you simply won't see her picked unless the enemy team is either bad, playing around, or knows what you're up to.
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Maybe a "worst case defense" scenario would be good too. Like, pick champs that are viable for normal roles, but with an eye to blocking that sort of comp. Just to see what would happen if a team pulled that sort of stunt just a few times too often.
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The key to successful baron ninjaing, I think, is having a team that you KNOW can create bot lane pressure.
Baron also happens to synergize extremely well with push/poke and supertanky teams, so I think that once you have your two baron-ninjas, mid and bot lane should be some combination of champs that can seriously take advantage of baron.
Also my brother's been running jungle AD Thresh and building BotRK and Hurricane. It's... surprisingly effective, since both the BotRK effect and the soul bonus are applied to the hurricane hits. The problems occur when his early jungle gets disrupted or he ganks unsuccessfully a lot (if he doesn't gank at all, he does fine generally). It works well with safe lanes that don't mind losing some of their XP to a thresh coming in and taking some sooouuuulllllssssss.
Regarding the push comp: have you been trying the Banner of Command? If so, thoughts? I haven't had much success with it in most cases, feeling like Aegis was better in almost every situation.
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EPT
