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Hey guys. GG's. Sorry I had to run after that last game without sticking around to discuss... Little family emergency.
It kind of occurred to me during that last game that we may have a fundamental flaw in the way we are doing these tests. I mean, for the sake of science, it would be helpful to have some kind of a control group, right? So maybe when we were running a dual AP bot lane, sending that lane against a Solo Renekton after a lane swap wasn't the best arena for the scientific test. Same goes for that TP comp. There was really no point in testing that against the Smiterdinger all mid push comp...
Fun as shit though playin with you guys.
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On February 23 2013 15:02 Terranasaur wrote:
Hey guys. GG's. Sorry I had to run after that last game without sticking around to discuss... Little family emergency.
It kind of occurred to me during that last game that we may have a fundamental flaw in the way we are doing these tests. I mean, for the sake of science, it would be helpful to have some kind of a control group, right? So maybe when we were running a dual AP bot lane, sending that lane against a Solo Renekton after a lane swap wasn't the best arena for the scientific test. Same goes for that TP comp. There was really no point in testing that against the Smiterdinger all mid push comp...
Fun as shit though playin with you guys.
Tonight ended up more as a have fun playing with TLers night... nothing wrong with that really. We went into the night without anything super concrete to test, and the games showed that. If anything, some of the stuff that was tried out gives us insight into things we may want to actually do controlled testing on in future weeks.
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Hey guys, has anyone gathered experience with...Zhonyas as defensive item for ad carries? I saw GGU vs col yesterday, and the Twitch was just always dead, never not dead. Twitch took a very late Banshees to be a little safer, but as they were behind, all col needed to do was wait till a stray aoe spell hit the rat and then again use the full combo. If, and only if, they have a Vi with a strong follow-up, like Malph, would that be efficient? Or are you screwing yourself over with not being able to do anything for the duration of the active? I feel like against the vi alone, zhonyas could be worth it, but what do i know?
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Maybe if you were Tristana or MF and thus are benefitting in some way from the AP you're getting (I guess twitch benefits somewhat via expunge) but you're paying over 3k for that activation and 50 armor so if that's all you're getting, you should definitely look elsewhere.
I think I like it best on MF, where half of your teamfighting is your ulti (which has an AP ratio too) and you convert AP to autoattacks.
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On February 23 2013 23:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Maybe if you were Tristana or MF and thus are benefitting in some way from the AP you're getting (I guess twitch benefits somewhat via expunge) but you're paying over 3k for that activation and 50 armor so if that's all you're getting, you should definitely look elsewhere.
I think I like it best on MF, where half of your teamfighting is your ulti (which has an AP ratio too) and you convert AP to autoattacks.
Could work on Varus too.
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Teams in one game were Ashe/Alistar/Janna/Heimer/Cho against Cait/Lulu/TF/Kayle/Nunu.
I think this game was really poorly executed on the our side. Ashe/Alistar 2v1 against Nasus with AP Janna 1v2 against Cait/Lulu went south for a few reasons. There was a pretty big miscommunication where Ali went bot and then towerdived Nasus with Cho (I think?). Cait and Lulu were pushing extremely hard, but Janna was dead, so I was worried they would take a tower (they killed one in a single minion wave previously). I should just gone bottom after clearing the wave, but my brain doesn't really register things very quickly when things start going poorly, so I overextended and died. At which point the wave was again at our tower, so I went back again (still a mistake).
I think another issue was Janna was going haunting guise/abyssal's scepter. If she went straight AP items, her wave clear would have been a lot better (she does require some AP to clear waves at level 5 tornado, I think? at the very least you wouldn't have to charge the tornado as long), and I wouldn't have felt nearly as obligated to have to deal with Cait/Lulu (although trying to do this was still a mistake on my part). Also the shields would have been a lot stronger, which is probably more significant than the wave clearing.
Also, we didn't have nearly enough wards- think Ali was trying to rush Aegis, but we went quite a long time with extremely poor ward coverage..
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Thst game you needed:
-Someone not ashe: you needed a hypercarry. You had all the peel for protect the carry, but asje isn't exactly the ADC that does a million damage in seconds.
-Janna to build AP, not mpen. Idk what that build was even supposed to do. It gave her no waveclear and no damage.
-Wards....idk why ali was rushing aegis, cho already had one and your entire teamfighting revolved around picking people off with arrow/rupture and kiting.
-keep the lane swap so nasus can't farm: although nasus was getting more farm early on than janna regardless, an underfarmed nasus is a lot more useless than an underfarmed janna. You guys applied basically 0 pressure to nasus after he have 1st blood in the jungle than survived with like 10 hp in lane vs ashe ali in the first 5 mins. From there on he just free farmed against janna and became a god.
I thought the heimer pick worked really well. TF literally couldn't gank as if he did he'd lose the turret basically instantly, and he nearly dies miltiple times to heimer too without really being able to do anything back. (rockets range too strong) But the rest of the map seemed to fall apart after around the 10-15 min mark when cait lulu could outright beat ashe ali and nasus was slowly becoming a god who completely ignored janna.
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Homework:
What gives level 18 Lux more effective HP against an all AD team? A chain vest or a giants belt.
Assuming that Lux is already level 18, using armor seals, running 21/9/0, has a Zhonyas and barrier. We'll assume she gets a full 1 shield from her W with about 550 AP, which is fairly normal for a late game Lux build.
We'll also assume that the enemy damage is using a last whisper, has 5 BC stacks, and 30 additional armor pen (10 for BC + about 20 for a full arpen rune/mastery page). This is going to skew the math towards BC because it would be impossible for Lux to have 5 BC stacks on her and also be at full health, but I imagine that would be cancelled out by any additional armor shred mechanics on the enemy team.
This works out to 55.15% pen and 30 additional arpen after that.
Lux in this scenario has 1905 HP + 847.5 shield HP for 2752.5 HP, and 148 armor, before the chain vest/giants belt.
With chain vest:
148 + 40 = 188 * 0.4485 = 84.318 -30 = 54.318
2752.5 * 1.54318 = 4247.60295 effective HP
With giants belt:
148 * 0.4485 = 66.378 -30 = 36.378
2752.5 + 380 = 3132.5 * 1.36378 = 4272.04085 effective HP
So basically, they're about the same, but the chain vest is cheaper. Also worth noting that when the effective HP is roughly the same armor is the better option, because it will scale with sustain in long fights the way health will not.
Moral of the story:
If you're playing Lux and running Barrier vs an all AD team, you want Zhonyas + a chain vest item for defense
If you're playing Lux and NOT running Barrier vs an all AD team, you want Zhonyas + a giants belt item for defense
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I've reviewed the replay of that game specifically. Here's a lot of what went wrong for your (Red) team:
- Janna should have had something other than Ignite as her second summoner spell. It's a common summoner for AP Janna, but when you're not going to get much farm someone else (Teleport, Heal, Exhaust, even CV) would be better.
- Ali/Ashe had several chances to lane swap. 5:30, 9:30, and 11:30 were all times you needed to recall to base anyway, and so would have been good opportunities. This was discussed after the game, but letting Nasus 1v1 Janna was a really, really bad idea.
- Cho'gath's ganks on Nasus bottom were completely ineffective. There wasn't any major issue with Cho'gath's jungling (although E at level 2 would have been better than W), but a level 5 Cho'gath only brings moderate damage to a gank. When you're ganking a really tanky target you need a lot of damage to bring them down, which neither Cho'gath nor Janna provided. As a result, Nasus was literally able to stand, fight, and chase Cho'gath off 1v2. Cho'gath should have focused on ganking the other lanes, where CC-chains or lack of escapes made them much more viable.
- Cho'gath invested a lot in his early ganks, and really should have focused on leveling and his own development past the 10 minute mark. He was literally the lowest level in the game and had zero Feast stacks. Instead he kept trying to invest in him team, which lead to him being unable to adequately contribute to the team's tanky frontline. His intentions were noble, but Cho'gath isn't a jungler who can afford to be 100% altruistic.
- Red team's tower dives were all bad ideas. The first dive ran right into a cannon minion wave, and did not take into account how much time had passed since Nasus had recalled. Both Alistar and Cho'gath easily lost 2-3 Health bars from the minions alone. The second dive repeated the same mistakes: no creep support, right into a cannon minion wave, no map awareness. For this dive Red team could have simply stopped and taken a free dragon and/or bottom tower. Instead Blue team got a bunch of kills and took dragon themselves. Then there was a third dive on Nasus by Ali/Ashe that also went south. At that point Nasus had max rank Spirit Fire, meaning when Ali was taking turret shots he only had 33 Armor. These dives were simply disasters. Between that and Sheen-empowered Siphon Strike he simply evaporated. These dives were all disasters, and even with slightly better execution would not have ended well.
- Ashe never initiated. There's not much I can say about this, but there were opportunities where an Ashe arrow could have picked someone off, but they were never taken. A missed arrow is a sad thing, but an arrow that never flies can be worse.
- Blue team had the better team composition. Heimerdinger's main schtick is his ability to push, but every single champion on Blue team had strong wave clear. Combined with Nasus reaching the point where he could one shot Heimer's turrets, this veritable wall of push made it impossible for Red team to win a pushing war. Purple Team cleared waves well, but once the waves were cleared Blue team's extreme amounts of poke made it nigh impossible for Ashe to safely attack Blue team's towers. Even if the game had been more even, it's unlikely Red team would ever have won a head to head pushing contest.
It was a good game, and there's a host of things that Blue team did wrong as well, but I don't have the time to go over them.
Edit: Regarding Ketara's homework, given that they are about the same I'd probably grab Giant's Belt. The reason being Giant's Belt provides effective health against all types of damage. Unless the enemy team is entirely AD without any significant True/Magic damage sources, Giant's Belt makes more sense.
That actually has a lot to do with why Health stacking is so strong right now. Unless your only concern is one damage type, the cost of effective health through Armor+MR is greater than that of Health itself.
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I would only get the second defense item in the first place if the enemy team was 100% AD (not counting the support of course).
Zhonyas + Barrier + shield on Lux is typically more than enough defense, but if the enemy team is entirely one damage type, why not build to counter it.
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Yes, I should have focused more on clearing small camps. It does seem like Nasus top is particularly vulnerable to a swap, which can turn into a game of musical chairs. Maybe I should have dived for a 3v1 more?
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I think the one shield assumption is kind of faulty and skews things towards the giant's belt (especially if you're running barrier on Lux). I usually get off 3-4 shields. And certainly 2-3 is not that hard to get, since barrier will almost assure you live to get a second shield off, and then Zhonya's gets you close to a third one.
Also on the not initiating as Ashe bit: our composition didn't really favor that in my opinion. Where is our burst damage? We had an AP Janna, a Heimer, Ashe, and a Cho. If I initiated, if we wanted any chance of a kill, Cho would have to blow everything, because Heimer and Janna can't do much to follow up. There was a pretty narrow window where this could have conceivably worked, but I didn't really feel like the window was that large.
I would be more proactive about using it to initiate if I knew we had reliable. fast, mobile damage sources. (Although I will admit, I tend to be conservative with my arrows- haven't played Ashe in a while either so I wasn't exactly feeling super confident).
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Yeah I think assuming that Lux is only going to give herself one shield application is VERY conservative. Probably somewhere between 1 and 2 is the bare minimum for a typical teamfight.
One thing I would like for Lux is if the post game stats had a "Damage shielded" category. I think the Lux shield doesn't get the credit it deserves, as in a typical teamfight it is probably shielding several thousand points of damage if used well.
Barrier not always up though.
Even if your composition is geared towards counter initiation, if there's a time when an ashe arrow is guaranteeing a kill, go for it. Playing conservative is in general good (especially at lower skill levels), but playing too conservative can give up advantages.
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Today I discovered that we have a strategy subforum (I'd been away from LoL for a while).
T.R.O.L.L.S. is relevant to my interests.
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Soon I'll post a little article about lane swaps and my experiments and theory behind them. After IEM World Championships. If I post it before, the team I'm coaching (paiN Gaming) will have some of its new strats revealed.
Please be patient, fellow researchers!
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On February 24 2013 04:46 Pooshlmer wrote:
Yes, I should have focused more on clearing small camps. It does seem like Nasus top is particularly vulnerable to a swap, which can turn into a game of musical chairs. Maybe I should have dived for a 3v1 more?
Musical chairs generally favors the team who is swapping to chase, rather than swapping to run away, as long as you actually play it. Push and swap.
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On February 24 2013 06:28 zer0das wrote:
I think the one shield assumption is kind of faulty and skews things towards the giant's belt (especially if you're running barrier on Lux). I usually get off 3-4 shields. And certainly 2-3 is not that hard to get, since barrier will almost assure you live to get a second shield off, and then Zhonya's gets you close to a third one.
Also on the not initiating as Ashe bit: our composition didn't really favor that in my opinion. Where is our burst damage? We had an AP Janna, a Heimer, Ashe, and a Cho. If I initiated, if we wanted any chance of a kill, Cho would have to blow everything, because Heimer and Janna can't do much to follow up. There was a pretty narrow window where this could have conceivably worked, but I didn't really feel like the window was that large.
I would be more proactive about using it to initiate if I knew we had reliable. fast, mobile damage sources. (Although I will admit, I tend to be conservative with my arrows- haven't played Ashe in a while either so I wasn't exactly feeling super confident).
Blowing all of your damage to take out one of our damage sources (or our one tanky champion) would be well worth it. Ashe and Heimerdinger's damage is significant so long as a fight lasts long enough for it to be applied. In a 4v5 your two tanky champions + Janna utility would likely have outlasted us. It's also a heck of a lot easier to land ruptures, silences, tornadoes and pulverizes when the enemy is rushing in to save someone.
There were also several opportunities where one or more of us were forced to back or broke off at bad times when you were all still together. Perhaps it was lack of information, but I was surprised you didn't take these chances.
On February 24 2013 07:13 Ketara wrote:
Yeah I think assuming that Lux is only going to give herself one shield application is VERY conservative. Probably somewhere between 1 and 2 is the bare minimum for a typical teamfight.
One thing I would like for Lux is if the post game stats had a "Damage shielded" category. I think the Lux shield doesn't get the credit it deserves, as in a typical teamfight it is probably shielding several thousand points of damage if used well.
Barrier not always up though.
You're also, however, assuming that all shield applications are fully utilized. Even with that assumption here's what happens when you add a second shield use in a teamfight.
(2752.5 + 745) * 1.54318 = 5397.272
(2752.5 + 745 + 380) * 1.36378 = 5288.057
So there's a ~110 effective health difference (per additional shield past the first), but only so long as the damage in question is physical (and barrier plus the entirety of every shield is used).
You might try some more calculations which aren't so heavy on armor penetration. AD carries, for example, aren't commonly running armor penetration runes, and may not always be attacking a target with BC stacks. See if that doesn't swing things more clearly in favor of your argument.
That's actually one of the reasons Nidalee's traps are extremely scary for champions with high resistances. In a teamfight they're almost impossible to notice, but act as a free LW and Void Staff on affected targets. You don't have to be Xerath to deal true damage to tanks with Nidalee around.
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I think the math that I used was pretty heavily in favor of the armor penetration side of things. I basically listed out a perfect arpen scenario that is not likely to actually happen in a real game, and even with that they're roughly even.
The reality is if the enemy team is doing no magic damage at all, armor is still a good buy even if they have some crazy penetration team. The same would be true in reverse, except we don't see all AP teams. I do see all AD team in solo queue, with things like Panth mid, Riven top and Jarvan jungle. I guess Jarvans ult or whatever does magic damage, but not such a big deal.
Armor is especially a good buy before their damage dealers get Last Whispers and Black Cleavers, and you're almost always getting your chain vest before the enemy team finishes those items.
I'm pretty confident that my chain vest on Lux vs. all AD teams is the correct buy, there was just the challenge that it was not giving as much resistance as a giants belt. I think the math shows that even in an ideal scenario for the giants belt it's about the same, which means for a host of reasons chain vest is the better buy. It's cheaper, works better the longer the fight lasts, works better before enemy pen items are out, and also has more AP-friendly item build paths. I'd probably upgrade it to a Frozen Fist as 6th item for the CDR.
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On February 23 2013 06:07 Seuss wrote:
Support Nasus:
I'd like to run this through its paces. TheYango and I did some interesting math in the Nasus thread showing that 1-2 ranks in Wither is sufficient to push opponents down to the movement speed slow soft cap, so maxing E first seems appropriate (though costly in terms of mana). Proper placement of E will be critical to making this work. Miss Fortune, Twitch, Graves, and Draven seem like the best partners.
I'm surprised Corki/Kog aren't listed as ideal partners for the double armor shred combo -- with Nasus support they'd easily bring armor into negatives early game.
I don't often get the chance to do it because so few people play Nasus, but spirit fire + gatling gun in teamfights is just... 
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On February 24 2013 17:14 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 06:07 Seuss wrote:
Support Nasus:
I'd like to run this through its paces. TheYango and I did some interesting math in the Nasus thread showing that 1-2 ranks in Wither is sufficient to push opponents down to the movement speed slow soft cap, so maxing E first seems appropriate (though costly in terms of mana). Proper placement of E will be critical to making this work. Miss Fortune, Twitch, Graves, and Draven seem like the best partners.
I'm surprised Corki/Kog aren't listed as ideal partners for the double armor shred combo -- with Nasus support they'd easily bring armor into negatives early game. I don't often get the chance to do it because so few people play Nasus, but spirit fire + gatling gun in teamfights is just...
They might be possible...Corki especially. Less so Kog imo. That's because support Nasus offers pretty much zero damage at all to a lane so a kill combo once the enemy is Withered pretty much has to come all from the AD. Corki offers decent burst once he can fire some missiles but Kog offers no burst whatsoever so you've essentially gotta hope that his autos do enough damage that he can kill them before they get out of range...BAB helps with that I guess but I'm not so sure I see the synergy there.
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EPT
