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[TL R&D] T.R.O.L.L.S. - Page 39

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Flakes
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States3125 Posts
February 24 2013 09:13 GMT
#761
On February 24 2013 17:35 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2013 17:14 Flakes wrote:
On February 23 2013 06:07 Seuss wrote:
Support Nasus:
I'd like to run this through its paces. TheYango and I did some interesting math in the Nasus thread showing that 1-2 ranks in Wither is sufficient to push opponents down to the movement speed slow soft cap, so maxing E first seems appropriate (though costly in terms of mana). Proper placement of E will be critical to making this work. Miss Fortune, Twitch, Graves, and Draven seem like the best partners.

I'm surprised Corki/Kog aren't listed as ideal partners for the double armor shred combo -- with Nasus support they'd easily bring armor into negatives early game.
I don't often get the chance to do it because so few people play Nasus, but spirit fire + gatling gun in teamfights is just...

They might be possible...Corki especially. Less so Kog imo. That's because support Nasus offers pretty much zero damage at all to a lane so a kill combo once the enemy is Withered pretty much has to come all from the AD. Corki offers decent burst once he can fire some missiles but Kog offers no burst whatsoever so you've essentially gotta hope that his autos do enough damage that he can kill them before they get out of range...BAB helps with that I guess but I'm not so sure I see the synergy there.

I mostly mentioned Kog for completeness, since he's the only other ADC with flat armor reduction (caustic spittle, though it's pretty small if you leave it at 1).
My only experience with stacking flat armor shred is with Corki, either in lane with Taric shatter (which works great), or in teamfights with Nasus or pre-nerf Karthus wall.
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-24 19:50:21
February 24 2013 18:35 GMT
#762
I had a dream about Icebourne Gauntlet AD Kennen- I know the item is terrible for him from a gold efficiency perspective (unless the passive is worth a lot more than I suspect it would be), but the dream was amazing so I'm throwing it out there. :>

I tried out in a normal game, and it worked pretty well against a team with Udyr/Garen/Kassadin/Ezreal/Blitz. We did get quite far ahead though (or I did), so I don't know how much the ice glove made a difference. It did make me pretty much impossible to catch by anyone but Kassadin, and when he got on top of me he couldn't get away from me.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-25 06:01:25
February 25 2013 05:54 GMT
#763
So, further observations about AP annie bot lane:

Don't start W. Charging your stun at the fountain for level 1 is cool, but that stun now has a 32 second cooldown and costs most of your mana pool once you use it. Start Q. You probably want to wait til 2 to engage anyway, where you can combo. It also means you can Q+auto back in response to any auto harass (low CD on q) and win trades that way.

I'm not sure where to balance CDR with MPen. CDR gets you and your team more stuns, MPen makes people die harder. I feel like CDR might be the correct answer because the idea behind Annie bot is that you're sacrificing levels on your AP carry because you care more about the CC than having a farmed bitch who murders everything in sight.

On February 24 2013 17:35 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2013 17:14 Flakes wrote:
On February 23 2013 06:07 Seuss wrote:
Support Nasus:
I'd like to run this through its paces. TheYango and I did some interesting math in the Nasus thread showing that 1-2 ranks in Wither is sufficient to push opponents down to the movement speed slow soft cap, so maxing E first seems appropriate (though costly in terms of mana). Proper placement of E will be critical to making this work. Miss Fortune, Twitch, Graves, and Draven seem like the best partners.

I'm surprised Corki/Kog aren't listed as ideal partners for the double armor shred combo -- with Nasus support they'd easily bring armor into negatives early game.
I don't often get the chance to do it because so few people play Nasus, but spirit fire + gatling gun in teamfights is just...

They might be possible...Corki especially. Less so Kog imo. That's because support Nasus offers pretty much zero damage at all to a lane so a kill combo once the enemy is Withered pretty much has to come all from the AD. Corki offers decent burst once he can fire some missiles but Kog offers no burst whatsoever so you've essentially gotta hope that his autos do enough damage that he can kill them before they get out of range...BAB helps with that I guess but I'm not so sure I see the synergy there.

Corki does armor shred, but he doesn't really do a whole lot of physical damage (I hate this about Corki) so partnering him with armor shred feels really awkward.
I guess I do see the value in the ease of landing rockets on a withered target.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 25 2013 17:10 GMT
#764
Regarding Friday's testing, I have some thoughts:

AP Duos Lanes:
The lane swap we've utilized extensively with the AP + Support team composition appears to be a liability. So far in all of our tests we have yet to see an AP + Support push as hard as a standard AD + Support lane. The lane swap has only worked against opponents who horrifically misplay the setup by not pushing and/or suppressing the 1v2. At first I thought it was merely an issue in execution and champion choice, but the consistency of this failure has me convinced that at best it takes significantly more skill to execute the AP + Support 2v1, and at worst the swap is simply ineffective. Perhaps at the professional level it might make sense, but not at our level.

It's also unnecessary. Even in our earliest tests the AP + Support duo fared very well against AD + Support duos. Recent tests have had similar results, leading me to conclude that further testing of this subject should almost completely ignore lane swaps. Our next wave of tests will focus on Ryze, Cassiopeia, and Annie versus AD + Support.


Tower Rush Compositions:
This definitely qualifies as a cheese strategy (which is not a value judgement). The victory seen in our tests can be attributed primarily to three failures in execution on the defending side:
  • Shen and Jarvan should have each taken a side lane immediately, preventing Nasus from freely pushing and lane swapping. Instead Shen ended up where Nasus was not, while Jarvan largely jungled.
  • The losing team focused overly much on harassing versus wave clear. Allowing enemy creep waves to reach the tower slowly whittled it down and provided opportunities for hooks.
  • At the most critical point in the game, when the defending side was about to hit level 6, a hook landed and initiated a very suboptimal fight for the defending side.

If the defending side had changed any one of these three execution errors the game would have been even. Any two and they likely would have won. This is because the defending team saw the push coming, and was in position to stop it before any damage was done to the mid tower. Without these execution errors the rushing team was in an extremely tenuous position.

That said, this strategy could likely be used to great effect in ranked 5s. It may often lose if the defending team sees it coming, but otherwise its unorthodoxy and extreme pressure will break unprepared teams. I do think that Heimerdinger with Smite is too big a giveaway and would like to find alternatives (e.g. "Jungle" Nasus who simply passes the buff on before taking control of a lane).


Support Zilean:
While the Twitch/Zilean combo worked extremely well, invisibombs weren't the critical factor (much to my chagrin). Both this and Support Nasus need more extensive testing.


Jungle Karthus:
It didn't win the game, but it was obviously very effective. There was a common sentiment that it wouldn't work competitively because enemy junglers would continuously invade. As such, sometime in the future I'd like to arrange a test involving that sort of pressure. If I can be as on-target with my skittles as I was that game, I think I could do better against invasions than one might otherwise assume.


On February 25 2013 14:54 sylverfyre wrote:
So, further observations about AP annie bot lane:

Don't start W. Charging your stun at the fountain for level 1 is cool, but that stun now has a 32 second cooldown and costs most of your mana pool once you use it. Start Q. You probably want to wait til 2 to engage anyway, where you can combo. It also means you can Q+auto back in response to any auto harass (low CD on q) and win trades that way.

I'm not sure where to balance CDR with MPen. CDR gets you and your team more stuns, MPen makes people die harder. I feel like CDR might be the correct answer because the idea behind Annie bot is that you're sacrificing levels on your AP carry because you care more about the CC than having a farmed bitch who murders everything in sight.


Starting W is what allows Annie's team to auto-win level 1 team fights. You're not going to be level 1 very long even in a duo lane. If you're taking a ton of damage before level 2, you and/or your support are probably misplaying the lane.

Annie still cares more about murdering everything in sight than being a CC bot. She fits well in the duo lane because she actually scales well with farm and also is well-suited to fighting AD carries (that Flameshield). For those reasons early MPen is better, especially because Haunting Guise is coupled with Health and building a little tanky on Annie is important. Later in the game you should have Blue buff, so you don't need to invest heavily in CDR pretty much ever.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-25 20:16:33
February 25 2013 20:13 GMT
#765
My issue with jungle Karthus is that while it tends to effective early on, it tends to skew your itemization away from RoA because you're much poorer and need more early game power. So you compensate by getting other items (Zhonya's), but then you're too squishy when mid-game teamfights roll around.

It is also nearly impossible to get an early tear without gimping yourself (hard enough to do this when you're mid), and I find Seraph's is also a strong defensive item. Overall AP progression is quite a bit slower too, and that is crucial to becoming obnoxious as Karthus.

I'm not saying it doesn't work period, it just takes a lot more effort than playing him mid. Every jungle Karthus I see stomps face early then struggles to be relevant mid-game (if it isn't a complete stomp).
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 25 2013 22:14 GMT
#766
Do you build both RoA and Tear/AA when playing Karthus? That seems like a heck of a lot of investment in defense/utility stats early. Karthus does carry games late, but he's also a lot more fierce early on if you actually have a good chunk of AP/Penetration to go with his ultimate.

I'm not as concerned about being squishy on Karthus. Despite only having Haunting Guise and Armguard for defense for most of the game I didn't have many issues surviving. What is more concerning is mana. I consistently got blue buffs in the T.R.O.L.L.S. game so I didn't have to worry about mana often, but in a game with a more hotly contested jungle I'd definitely have wanted a Tear. However, Tear is now only 700g so it doesn't seem all that onerous.

On a related tangent, I've been lazily using my Akali runes and masteries for Karthus. That was necessary in S2 for a Boots start, but now that everyone runs Machete I'm ending clears super fast and with excess potions even with a minimal/no leash. I think I can afford to drop the 7 points in the defense tree and either go for 21/0/9 for the mana regen and buff duration or 9/0/21 for more CDR, faster leveling, and the like. I'd also like to try MPen instead of AD Marks.


On another tangent, we definitely need to investigate Sejuani top more, because Miscue's ego will be forever bruised if he's the only person to get crushed by it.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 25 2013 22:56 GMT
#767
Miscue can be excused, Sejuani with lane farm actually stomps squishies and terror whole teams.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 26 2013 00:44 GMT
#768
On another subject altogether, phyvo had a few thoughts regarding his Jayce game that he shared with me directly, but neglected to post here.

The most important was his skill order choice. Rather than leveling R>Q>E>W, he leveled R>Q>W>E. As a result his mid-game pushing power was much, much stronger than it otherwise would have been. The combination of significant area damage from Hammer W and the tower pushing potential of Cannon W was absolutely brutal. Not only does Cannon W do nearly twice as much damage at rank 5, but it also has less than half the cooldown. Between Brutalizer, Masteries, and a Blue Buff the cooldown on Cannon W is a mere 4 seconds (leaving only 2.8 between uses). If used on cooldown it's equivalent to having an average bonus Attack Speed of 133%, without accounting for the 30% extra damage dealt at rank 5 (which can crit no less).

Otherwise he actually built not unlike a Miss Fortune or Nunu-powered Caitlyn, focusing on AD, sustain, and penetration. If we look at Jayce similar to Ezreal (a mana dependent AD with bruiser qualities), he could be a fairly potent force either as a solo AD or pseudo AD. The complaints I've seen about Jayce's inability to carry seem rooted in the old R>Q>E>W skill order.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 01:00:50
February 26 2013 00:56 GMT
#769
Yeah, I tend to get RoA/AA (I finish Deathcap after RoA) when playing Karthus. Not every game, but probably about 90% of them. And yes, it's a lot of gold. Thing is the payoff once you finish everything is huge- large mana pool, lots of AP, and lots of defense. Keeping defile up for long periods of time when you're alive practically necessitates having a tear (and the RoA helps too). I've learned to cope with slow start that this sort of build entails. I try to get the tear asap, but sometimes I wait until after RoA is done to finish it- which means the tear needs to charge a bit more after finishing archangels, but not that much more. I think its more "standard" to just get a RoA and not an AA, but I've had the most success when I go RoA/Deathcap/AA.

Building more penetration early on him does help to a degree, but this is somewhat offset by people tending to build health items earlier. I suppose it would probably be less taxing to build a tear coming from the jungle in a way, because you don't have to worry about surviving another AP's burst nearly as much when you aren't in lane with them 24/7.

On the Jayce bit: I think most Jayce's in the know have been going Q>W>E for a while- and some even skip R until everything else is maxed (I do- more levels of Q/W help early than extra levels of R, in my experience). You chunk turrets, and W second works really well with Frozen Mallet. Also clear speed while in hammer form is almost as good as cannon form when you go Q>W>E, because W does a lot of AOE damage.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 26 2013 02:00 GMT
#770
I saw Smash max W first on Jayce even, shortly after he was out (so his E was still wtf bullshit material). Killed his lane opponent once. Got the tower down in a single wave (that wasn't even built-up).
I'm actually suprised noone abuses his ranged-W on a regular basis, considering the burst it represents, either during a gank, or when pushing. It's like Nasus on steroids.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Arekan
Profile Joined February 2011
United States248 Posts
February 26 2013 05:00 GMT
#771
On February 26 2013 07:14 Seuss wrote:


On another tangent, we definitely need to investigate Sejuani top more, because Miscue's ego will be forever bruised if he's the only person to get crushed by it.


I second this.
jermmanDOTA
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada45 Posts
February 26 2013 14:42 GMT
#772
Just stopping in to let you guys know heimerdinger is sleeper OP as a hard support 0 CS champion. Passive hp regen aura, stun, blind, free INFINITE wards that you have to take damage to destroy (turrets), and slow after lvl 6.
I exercise occult and subtle power, Carrying water, shouldering firewood.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
February 26 2013 15:02 GMT
#773
On February 26 2013 23:42 jermmanDOTA wrote:
Just stopping in to let you guys know heimerdinger is sleeper OP as a hard support 0 CS champion. Passive hp regen aura, stun, blind, free INFINITE wards that you have to take damage to destroy (turrets), and slow after lvl 6.

As soon as you start playing anyone who can dodge your grenade, he'll start to be way less useful in lane. And then a 0 cs Heimer ain't doing much later on.
It's your boy Guzma!
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 15:49:03
February 26 2013 15:45 GMT
#774
It's also worth noting that you don't need to take damage to kill turrets - the turrets don't have enough range to shoot back vs. most AD carries or ranged supports. If they're in a bush you can ward it.

Also the insane mana costs aren't particularly nice to deal with.

Heimer has a stun ONLY if your enemies stand very still. It's not even a matter of aiming and predicting well, it's a matter of luck and them entirely failing to dodge. Even the blind is significantly harder to land than Nami's Q stun (and the general complaint about Nami is how hard it is to reliably stun)
OhNeverMind
Profile Joined October 2010
United States90 Posts
February 26 2013 17:20 GMT
#775
My favorite duo AP lane to date has been Lux + morgana. It just feels really safe with the double snare and double shield. It also offers really good wave clears and either champ landing one bind in a decent position usually means you can get a kill or at least push them out of lane.

I played it out with letting Lux get farm priority up to deathcap, and then after that Morg gets farm priority to zhonya's. Their ults don't synergize perfectly, but otherwise their kits just bring a lot of utility. On top of that it was just really fun. I'm hoping to get some more games with those 2 and i can bring some more data points with some more testing.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 19:57:15
February 26 2013 19:56 GMT
#776
We tried a Lux carry farm lane and I do not like it.

Lux has a strong laning phase and can be a big bully with somebody to do backup damage after she hits a snare, that's true. However, it's hard for her to carry in a 2v2 from a side lane, for all of the following reasons:

1 - Lux's damage compared to other AP carries is actually fairly low. Reignofgaming had a spreadsheet of the theoretical damage limits of all AP carries and Lux was 3rd to last. Her AP ratios are not terrible but they aren't the best either. She requires solo lane levels to be scary in the mid game, where she is typically strongest. Level 11 is a big deal.

2 - Lux's mana costs are horrendous. They're not Anivia level bad, but without blue buff (which is not a guarantee in a side lane) she can easily run out of mana simply farming, and then exerts no pressure on the enemy lane because she can't afford to use her spells to harass at all.

3 - Lux in mid lane exerts a lot of map pressure. She can reach all four jungle buff objectives with her ult, as well as dragon and baron, without leaving the lane. This gives her a strong ability to safely assist other lanes. Her ganks are also very strong, both in terms of killing enemies and saving teammates. If she is in a side lane you're giving up this lane pressure because her ult is not actually global.


I like Annie, Cassiopeia and Ryze. Cass and Ryze because they are weak early but have extremely strong late games, and Annie because she is probably the ideal anti ADC lane bully.

I don't think Lux is a bad support for the AP duo lane, she is just as big a bully playing as support up to level 6. But that goes back to the question of if Lux support, why not Zyra?
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13984 Posts
February 26 2013 20:37 GMT
#777
We had the lux support vs zyra support argument a while back.

the reason why lux has such low damage limits is because she lacks a straight damage nuke. One spell is a shield so entierly defensive one spell is a slow aoe nuke so it can't be that damaging and another is a snare so again can't be that damaging as well. Her ult has insane range as well as low cd which makes her such a good ap carry for a duo lane. I think you're wildly underestimating her anti carry capabilities in early game and utility in mid-late game. barrier shield lux against an aoe comp? Range that would make a xerath think thrice before seiging up? a passive making aa trades with her something you really don't want to do? Top it all off her combo is near instant burst allowing her to walk away in between throwing out her shit which is something that a lot of other ap carry's can't do or they lose their dps. If your trying to come away from lux trying to get a damage or dps champ your not approaching her correctly.

Her mana problems are a real thing but as with jarvans mana costs they're really overstated. With the way her passive works she shouldn't need more then 1 e for farming each wave if that and the rest of your movement can be used to wrest bush control from the enemy for a lucky snare into 100-0 combo with your support.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 21:07:02
February 26 2013 21:02 GMT
#778
1 Lux E is 130 mana and is both her main farming skill and her main harassment skill on a ten second cooldown. Without 40% CDR you have to choose between harassing the enemy lane and clearing minions, unless the enemy lane is stupid and stands in the middle of their minions (does happen a lot!)

She is a strong lane bully early game when you don't want to be using spells on minions at all and can focus all your mana on harassing the enemy laner.

She has a strong mid game when she has a lot of damage and is allowed to roam. Her damage comes from levels. At level 10 a Lux combo does 810+2.05 AP, with a 48 second cooldown on her ult. At level 11 it does 920+2.05 AP on a 36 second cooldown. That's assuming 40% CDR. In a side lane you can't assume 40% CDR, you have to assume 24%. The difference between 48 seconds and 36 seconds at that stage of the game is critical, because it's what allows her to do things like defend sieges by ulting every minion wave, or randomly use an ult to control an objective without fear that it won't be up in the next teamfight.

The difference between a level 11 mid lane Lux with blue buff and a level 10 side lane Lux without blue buff is 110 damage and 28 seconds cooldown on her ult, given the exact same minion farm, which is incorrect because realistically mid lane is the #1 farm position.

Trust me, I have played over 350 ranked Lux games. I'm not saying she's bad in a side lane, I'm saying she's giving up a ton of her potential by not being in mid.

Karthus is probably good in a side lane too, but there's no reason why you would ever not have him solo because he's just so incredibly good at soloing. Lux is the same way.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-27 03:37:35
February 26 2013 22:34 GMT
#779
So I'd like to do something a little different this week for T.R.O.L.L.S testing. Rather than posting subjects for testing the day of, I'm going to post them today so we can figure out finer details. I'll also be going into much greater detail on each individual subject.

Beyond helping us to get things in order ahead of time, this should give you all a bigger say in what gets tested. If you feel I have forgotten a subject you have a few days to bring it up and get it into the agenda.

FRIDAY TEST AGENDA: 03/01/2013
  • Specific Subjects:
    • Support Nasus
    • Support Zilean
    • Jayce AD
    • Thresh AD
    • Jungle Karthus

  • General Concepts:
    • AP Duo Lanes
    • Tower Rush Compositions

Details:

Support Nasus:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: WEQ R>E>W>Q
Primary Items: Philo Stone, Sightstone, Locket
Secondary Items: Shurelya's, Zeke's, Aegis
Abilities:
  • Soul Eater: As a support this passive isn't particularly amazing. However, it does give Nasus some extra survivability when slugging it out in a skirmish.
  • Soul Siphon: Because this is an auto-attack reset Nasus can potentially eat an opponent's brush wards if his AD is nearby and prepared. While support Nasus will never be able to stack this ability as much as when he solos or jungles, he should still take every reasonable opportunity to stack its damage. Last-hitting wards does stack Q, so acting as a ward hunter is beneficial for support Nasus.
  • Wither: The most powerful Attack Speed slow in the game, even at low ranks. Because of this ability's strength and long duration it is imperative that Nasus quickly cap CDR. At 40% CDR and rank 5 Wither there is a mere 1.6 second gap between them, making it difficult or impossible for any AD carry without Cleanse or QSS to contribute to a fight. It is also an insanely effective counter to movement speed boosts.
  • Spirit Fire: This ability does a lot of damage and provides the single largest flat armor reduction debuff in the game. It's this ability which makes pairing heavy physical damage dealing carries with Nasus ideal. It is extremely important that Spirit Fire be placed in such a way as to maximize the time the enemy spends within it. When Wither is on a target it is better to spend a couple seconds closing the distance; this gives you the greatest degree of freedom when placing it, while also aligning with the most potent moments of Wither.
  • Fury of the Sands: Do not underestimate the power of a sudden chunk of bonus health, AoE %Health damage, and an ever increasing AD buff. It might not be self-apparent, but this ultimate allows Nasus to engage the opposing duo with an aggressiveness that only Alistar can safely duplicate.


Best AD Carries:
  • Miss Fortune: The combination of Wither + Make It Rain with Spirit Fire and Bullet Time is absolutely devastating both in lane and in teamfights.
  • Twitch: Wither gives Twitch more than ample time to apply his passive, and Expunge + Spirit Fire is extremely painful. Spray and Pray is also devastating when all of Twitch's targets are in Spirit Fire.
  • Graves: His instantaneous, high damage AoE burst damage can be thrown down before his opponents can exit Spirit Fire. Wither buys him the time he needs for his passive to stack.
  • Draven: When it comes to physical damage, no one has more than Draven. So long as Draven unloads everything while his opponents are still in Spirit Fire (and doesn't knock them out of it with E), they will melt.
  • Caitlyn: Wither can't set up her traps, but Spirit Fire will let her practically one shot a creep wave with her Q.
  • Urgot: Wither into Noxious Charge is unavoidable, and extremely deadly.
  • Jayce: A Withered target will not only be stuck in Spirit Fire, but will be extremely easy to hit with Shock Blast.


Notes: I can't emphasis enough how important CDR is to Nasus. The difference between no CDR and capped CDR is night and day.



Support Zilean:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QWQE R>Q>W>E
Primary Items: Philo Stone, Kage's, Sightstone
Secondary Items: Deathcap, Shurelya's, Crucible, Shard, Tear
Abilities:
  • Heightened Learning: Beyond simply assuring that his team will generally have a level advantage, the exp boost gives all his lanes the potential to hit level 6 first. This provides a potential timing for a sudden kill.
  • Time Bomb: When cast one bomb at a time this is a very sustainable and deadly form of harass. The high base damage and potent scaling makes Zilean one of the hardest hitting harass supports in the game, and also a good source of wave clear later.
  • Rewind: More bombs, slows, and ultimates. This is why you make sure you cap CDR on Zilean.
  • Time Warp: Speeding up a lane ganking jungler, slowing down an out of place opponent, helping a carry escape to safety. There are a plethora of applications for this ability. This is actually longest duration CC in the entire game, clocking in at 5.5 seconds, and with CDR Zilean can keep it up permanently.
  • Chronoshift: The reason to use Zilean in any role. Having a GA available for every team fight is incredibly powerful, especially as it's independent of maximum health. With maximum CDR and back to back Rewinds, it has an effective cooldown of a mere 30 seconds.


Best AD Carries:
  • Twitch: The amount of early pressure this pair can put down is absolutely brutal, and having a get out of jail free card for Twitch later is extremely valuable.
  • Graves: A tanky AD carry combined with a revive is extremely difficult to deal with.
  • Kog'maw: Let's be clear, any hard carry with a revive every teamfight is difficult to deal with. Zilean's ability to help Kog'maw from getting overwhelmed by a hard push is also useful.
  • Tristana: Having a revive available for overly gung-ho Tristana players is a literal life-saver. Zilean's strong mid-game, even as a support, helps make up for Tristana's lack of one.
  • Jayce: Stacking movement speed boosts is fun, and slowed targets are easy targets for Shock Blast.


Notes: Like Nasus, Zilean needs capped CDR to truly realize his potential. Unlike Nasus, he also needs a lot of mana and mana regeneration to support his spell usage.



Jayce AD:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QEQW R>Q>W>E
Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Brutalizer
Secondary Items: Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Warmog's Armor, Infinity Edge

Best Supports::
  • Leona: Her ability to lock down a target gives Jayce ample time to set up a Shock Blast -> all-in, and his acceleration gate can greatly help her initiation.
  • Taric: His stun and armor shred is a perfect setup for a Shock Blast -> all-in. The sustain he brings and beneficial auras are icing on the cake.
  • Alistar: The combination of not one, but two displacement abilities is extremely nasty for both engaging and disengaging.
  • Zilean: Throwing a bomb on Jayce's head as he zooms headlong into a heavily harassed opponent, followed by a revive in case of emergency, is a thing of beauty.
  • Nasus: It's impossible to dodge Shock Blast when Withered, and oh do they hurt when you have zero armor.


Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.

Notes: Jayce does not fit the standard AD carry paradigm. Unlike almost every other AD carry, Attack Speed is largely an irrelevant stat for him. Instead, Jayce derives an incredible amount of power from CDR. With capped CDR Jayce's Cannon-W is roughly equivalent to a 130% Attack Speed steroid (without accounting for the increased damage). In many ways it is superior to such a steroid, as Jayce can burst an opponent with four quick attacks, disengage, and then reengage once the cooldown returns. Combined with his built-in speed boosts and above average (for an AD carry) movement speed, Jayce can afford to completely ignore AS/Movement itemization vital to other AD carries.

Jayce excels as an AD who can largely protect himself. His Hammer-Q -> Hammer-W combo on an adjacent target slows them and creates distance simultaneously (while also doing significant damage). Switching back to Cannon mode gives him a 25% Armor/MR reduction on the aggressor, which assures that the incoming burst will hurt like hell. With capped CDR this pattern can be repeated every 3.6 seconds, putting all but the most dogged of opponents in an impossible position.

Jayce's primary weakness is mana, but then other prominent ADs are also common recipients of Blue buff (Ezreal, Urgot). Jayce also works best with aggressive supports who can create space for Jayce to harass and farm.



Thresh AD:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QWE R>Q>W>E
Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Infinity Edge
Secondary Items: Last Whisper, Warmog's Armor, Mercurial Scimitar
Abilities:
  • Damnation: This ability essentially gives Thresh the highest base Armor of any potential AD in the game. Moreover, each soul increases the damage from his auto-attacks by a significant amount. The AP is just icing on the cake.
  • Death Sentence: The primary benefit of this ability is its AD steroid. 200% of Thresh's total AD is a huge amount of burst damage even without the addition of all the souls he's collected. Even when attacking continuously a significant % of Thresh's AD is still added to his damage, resulting in very significant damage against his target.

    The hook is also extremely useful. Thresh can initiate skirmishes in his lane for his support, setting up a Leona, Alistar, or other support, or following up their initiation. It also serves as a potential escape mechanism or as a way to buy time.
  • Dark Passage: Thresh's Lantern is an excellent personal defense tool, especially when his passive is taken into account. Its uses to pull allies to him for both offensive and defensive maneuvers are well-documented. An AD that brings a built-in Locket to his team is a valuable asset.
  • Flay: While not as impressive as some other distance-creating abilities, Flay augments Thresh's tankiness by helping him lock down or lock out opponents.
  • The Box: Thresh's ultimate is an incredible tool for self-peeling. A would-be diver can trip multiple walls attempting to reach Thresh, who then still has Flay to continue to keep them at bay. Its damage is also significant, especially if multiple walls are encountered.


Best Supports:
  • Blitzcrank: No team in their right mind should let you get both Blitzcrank and Thresh, but those who are foolish enough to do so will suffer for it.
  • Lulu: Her shields and health boosts work well with Thresh's passive. Together they present an almost unassailable combination.
  • Leona: Paired with Thresh, it's neither safe for the carry to stand near their creeps, nor away from their creeps.
  • Taric: His Armor aura paired with Thresh's shield makes them both nearly impossible to kill.
  • Sona: Her harass and sustain paired with the threat of Thresh helps keep both of them safe.


Notes: Like Jayce, Thresh is perfectly happy forgoing Attack Speed itemization. He's more than content to simply wallop whatever tanky champion comes too close and then finish them off. If an enemy squishy is caught his massive burst damage from Q's passive is practically a guarantee they will die. His combination of damage and tankiness is so potent he can 1v1 an AP Tryndamere through his ultimate. Diving Thresh alone simply doesn't work the way it does against other carries.

Thresh's self-peel is also excellent against multiple targets, and in some situations he can even use his Q to reach
safety. Thresh's autonomy makes him a huge asset to his team, though he can't carry quite as hard as a Vayne or Kog'maw. Of all AD champions, he arguably bring the most to a level 1 team fight with his hook.

Thresh's notable weakness is his lack of defenses against AP assassins and his lack of mobility. He can be overwhelmed when out of position, and burst down by a clever AP. This is one of the reasons why Mercurial Scimitar is an extremely strong item for him, especially in conjunction with his shield. Making certain there is a Runic Bulwark on the team to help defend Thresh against AP champions is important. Still, his "come at me" playstyle is very strong in this era of heavy dive champions like Xin and Vi.



Jungle Karthus:+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Order: QEQW R>Q>E>W
Primary Items: Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, Tear, Haunting Guise, Seeker's Armguard
Secondary Items: Zhonya's Hourglass, Deathfire Grasp, Void Staff

Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.

Notes: Jungle Karthus is arguably most reasonable AP jungler outside of Jungle Akali. With Spell Vamp quints he sustains extremely well through his first clear, and can even clear with relative ease if his Blue is stolen thanks to the efficiency of his Q. Invasion in his early levels is his biggest threat, but he quickly reaches a point where escape is not only possible, but unnecessary in the face of his extremely powerful and spammable Lay Waste.

Karthus' ganks are actually frightening. Wall of Pain has 1000 range, far more than champion vision, allowing him to initiate a gank from out of sight. This makes him exceptional at ganking mid-lane champions, particularly those whose only escape is Flash. The duration of the slow is 5 seconds, as much as Wither, which means a lot of easy to aim Lay Wastes and plenty of opportunity for your ally to pick up the fact that they should be murdering something.

Jungle Karthus is best used to either bait out a would-be counter-pick, or to provide an AP carry in team compositions with a bruiser/AD assassin mid. Coupling him with a blue-hungry mid is nothing short of a fatal error.

In dire circumstances Karthus can forgo Tear of the Goddess and max W before E. This results in less damage but better utility, and much less mana drained in protracted fights. This can also be done in times of plenty if you believe your AP and penetration will make up for reduced Defile damage.



AP Duo Lanes:+ Show Spoiler +

Notes: We will be avoiding lane swapping this week, even when it seems an obvious choice. The goal is to put our best three side lane AP carries through their paces when facing an opposing duo.

AP Carries:
  • Ryze: Pair him with Soraka, Alistar, Leona, or Lulu. These supports all have some wave clear to make up for Ryze's lack thereof, and either sustain or the ability to follow up on his root.
  • Cassiopeia: Pair her with Soraka, Blitzcrank, Sona, Lulu, or Zyra. These supports give her the space or sustain she needs to function, and/or combo well with her ultimate.
  • Annie: Pair her with Lulu, Alistar, Sona, Zyra, or Leona. These supports capitalize on Tibbers and increase the intense pressure Annie brings to a lane.

Future Options: We will likely examine further champions in the future, after we've completed our further examination of these big three. Some Examples:
  • Xerath: Because his damage is practically all based on Q his side lane scaling is decent. This also frees him from his early wave clear problems. His extreme range and dangerous ultimate can shut down almost any AD if he gets a lead.
  • Teemo: His blind and auto-attack passive essentially ensure he'll win trades with almost any AD, and he has extremely like AP scaling with his auto-attacks.
  • Kayle is an option, but is so good elsewhere that she is extremely low priority.
Again, these options are only for future consideration and will not be used this week.



Tower Rush Compositions:+ Show Spoiler +

It's been verified that this is a tough composition to play against, although execution errors were arguably to blame. However, you can't expect a run of the mill ranked 5s team to handle the rush well. Despite that advantage, I'd like to examine alternatives to Heimerdinger that don't give away the composition.
Roles:
  • Support (Push Type): These supports excel at supporting a push via wave clear and other means. The goal is to shove, and shove they will. (Soraka, Lulu, Zyra)
  • Support (Catch Type): These supports are present for the sole purpose of pressuring the defenders. They may offer other benefits, but primarily their goal is to catch someone, kill them, and give their team the opportunity to push hard as a result. (Blitzcrank, Thresh)
  • AP: Any AP champion in this composition must have exceptional wave clear at a minimum. Sustainability, utility, and zoning potential are also important attributes. (Twisted Fate, Lux, Ziggs)
  • AD: Any AD should also have significant wave clear, and enough range to safely poke at the turret. Utility for catching or confusing opponents is a plus. (Caitlyn, Graves, Varus)
  • Solo: One champion should be elsewhere in order to act as an additional threat to the defenders. Able to free farm and push, this champion should be a strong 1v1 champion who poses a significant threat if left alone. This champion should almost always have teleport and be capable of pushing hard. (Nasus, Jayce, Nidalee)
  • Jungle: The jungler can actually act as a filler, but should err toward established or traditional-looking junglers to avoid suspicion. Wave clear, catch potential, and utility are important. (Cho'gath, Nocturne, Nautilus, Maokai)


Notes: Grabbing items such as Mana Manipulator and Emblem of Valor quickly is important to sustaining the push.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
KissBlade
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States5718 Posts
February 26 2013 22:47 GMT
#780
I'd like to suggest Mordekaiser bot for AP carries paired with say Soraka or Taric.
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