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On February 06 2013 01:05 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 20:49 justiceknight wrote:
been trying out lux's combo and i seemed to be doing it wrong, Q>E>R>spam E to detonate, is that correct?
and also itemisation, is ROA needed? heres the route i am going currently, Chalice > ROA > boots > morello > D cap > lichbane Don't go RoA. You don't need to be building survivability on Lux. You want all damage all the time. Thereisnosaurus's combo's are all a little too extravagant. You can Q-E-R-detonate-auto all before the snare wears off. You can even Q-E-R-detonate if your target is the second snare hit if your fingers are fast enough and they're not building tenacity. If you've got a deathcap and a void staff Q-E-R-detonate should be 100-0ing their carry. You shouldn't even need the auto afterwards.
Yeah i wouldn't go RoA on Lux unless you are vs an AD in midlane with a gap closer in which the extra survivability/sustain might be needed. Even then Lux can still farm quite well from a distance. I would definitely go RoA vs a dive composition though.
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On February 06 2013 14:38 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 01:05 Ketara wrote:On February 05 2013 20:49 justiceknight wrote:
been trying out lux's combo and i seemed to be doing it wrong, Q>E>R>spam E to detonate, is that correct?
and also itemisation, is ROA needed? heres the route i am going currently, Chalice > ROA > boots > morello > D cap > lichbane Don't go RoA. You don't need to be building survivability on Lux. You want all damage all the time. Thereisnosaurus's combo's are all a little too extravagant. You can Q-E-R-detonate-auto all before the snare wears off. You can even Q-E-R-detonate if your target is the second snare hit if your fingers are fast enough and they're not building tenacity. If you've got a deathcap and a void staff Q-E-R-detonate should be 100-0ing their carry. You shouldn't even need the auto afterwards. Yeah i wouldn't go RoA on Lux unless you are vs an AD in midlane with a gap closer in which the extra survivability/sustain might be needed. Even then Lux can still farm quite well from a distance. I would definitely go RoA vs a dive composition though.
If you're against an AD, why wouldn't you start cloth and go towards Seeker's Armguard? Zhonya's is more worthy than RoA, I'd imagine.
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So I'm hoping that the new patch upping Athenes to 20% CDR will put this Athenes vs Morellonomicon argument to rest, and that Dae will admit that now Athenes is straight up better for Lux than Morellos is.
I'd rather have 40 MR and infinite mana than 15 AP and a crappy anti-healing passive. Unless I'm fighting Tryndamere. Maybe.
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On February 14 2013 09:39 Ketara wrote:
So I'm hoping that the new patch upping Athenes to 20% CDR will put this Athenes vs Morellonomicon argument to rest, and that Dae will admit that now Athenes is straight up better for Lux than Morellos is.
I'd rather have 40 MR and infinite mana than 15 AP and a crappy anti-healing passive. Unless I'm fighting Tryndamere. Maybe.
With you on that one. The old S2 lux build (Athenes/Deathcap) is now undisputedly the best midgame for her. Now I just need to figure out where you go after that - Maybe Liandries->Void for Stacked Penetration...
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On February 06 2013 23:39 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:38 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 06 2013 01:05 Ketara wrote:On February 05 2013 20:49 justiceknight wrote:
been trying out lux's combo and i seemed to be doing it wrong, Q>E>R>spam E to detonate, is that correct?
and also itemisation, is ROA needed? heres the route i am going currently, Chalice > ROA > boots > morello > D cap > lichbane Don't go RoA. You don't need to be building survivability on Lux. You want all damage all the time. Thereisnosaurus's combo's are all a little too extravagant. You can Q-E-R-detonate-auto all before the snare wears off. You can even Q-E-R-detonate if your target is the second snare hit if your fingers are fast enough and they're not building tenacity. If you've got a deathcap and a void staff Q-E-R-detonate should be 100-0ing their carry. You shouldn't even need the auto afterwards. Yeah i wouldn't go RoA on Lux unless you are vs an AD in midlane with a gap closer in which the extra survivability/sustain might be needed. Even then Lux can still farm quite well from a distance. I would definitely go RoA vs a dive composition though. If you're against an AD, why wouldn't you start cloth and go towards Seeker's Armguard? Zhonya's is more worthy than RoA, I'd imagine.
Of course you need to start cloth still. But against an ad mid/dive comp roa is an excellent choice since it makes you tanky. Rushing armguard off the bat isn't as good as it looks on paper. I would still build the zhonya but after the roa.
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Now I just need to figure out where you go after that
lichbane all the way sir. Even setting aside the tower pushing-oneshotting deathmachine it makes you into, it's the only AP item other than twin shadows to give that crucial 5% movespeed boost that lets you stay out of the way of the crunch party coming after you a bit longer.
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On February 14 2013 09:39 Ketara wrote:
So I'm hoping that the new patch upping Athenes to 20% CDR will put this Athenes vs Morellonomicon argument to rest, and that Dae will admit that now Athenes is straight up better for Lux than Morellos is.
I'd rather have 40 MR and infinite mana than 15 AP and a crappy anti-healing passive. Unless I'm fighting Tryndamere. Maybe.
Why get only one?
Mmm challice->morellos->athenes->deathcap, farm all day build.
(also, good with fid/hec scumbag junglers taking all blues).
(also, 4% attack speed level 1 with w, auto harass all day hmmmm(or ez mode csing))
In all honesty Athenes has gotten quite a few buffs recently, to where its probably almost always better vs ap mids - Before morellos + tear was same cost as athenes, with better ap/lategame, now athenes has gotten way more attractive.
The 200g cheaper, + the added cdr, just make it so much more attractive.
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On February 14 2013 17:59 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:39 Requizen wrote:On February 06 2013 14:38 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 06 2013 01:05 Ketara wrote:On February 05 2013 20:49 justiceknight wrote:
been trying out lux's combo and i seemed to be doing it wrong, Q>E>R>spam E to detonate, is that correct?
and also itemisation, is ROA needed? heres the route i am going currently, Chalice > ROA > boots > morello > D cap > lichbane Don't go RoA. You don't need to be building survivability on Lux. You want all damage all the time. Thereisnosaurus's combo's are all a little too extravagant. You can Q-E-R-detonate-auto all before the snare wears off. You can even Q-E-R-detonate if your target is the second snare hit if your fingers are fast enough and they're not building tenacity. If you've got a deathcap and a void staff Q-E-R-detonate should be 100-0ing their carry. You shouldn't even need the auto afterwards. Yeah i wouldn't go RoA on Lux unless you are vs an AD in midlane with a gap closer in which the extra survivability/sustain might be needed. Even then Lux can still farm quite well from a distance. I would definitely go RoA vs a dive composition though. If you're against an AD, why wouldn't you start cloth and go towards Seeker's Armguard? Zhonya's is more worthy than RoA, I'd imagine. Of course you need to start cloth still. But against an ad mid/dive comp roa is an excellent choice since it makes you tanky. Rushing armguard off the bat isn't as good as it looks on paper. I would still build the zhonya but after the roa.
Please don't build RoA on Lux, resists + cdr are way better defensive stats for her, with her shield and snare.
Exception would be vs something stupid like noct building damage, where its literally impossible to stop him getting on you, and surviving once hes on you until team can kill him is needed.
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On February 14 2013 18:11 Thereisnosaurus wrote:lichbane all the way sir. Even setting aside the tower pushing-oneshotting deathmachine it makes you into, it's the only AP item other than twin shadows to give that crucial 5% movespeed boost that lets you stay out of the way of the crunch party coming after you a bit longer.
Right - I havent been getting this item nearly as much as I should be - I really cant be complaining about Lux's seeming lack of damage when a solution is right there. Ms is also really underrated too, because its so good against skillshots and brusiers.
I guess what I was really asking though is how I could use the liandries now that its been buffed. Of course I said that before I finished rereading the guide here, so now Im considering whether to get it or dfg now.
My only issue with lux is that she has no damage lategame/against tanky teams (I feel shes irelevant when they stack health); so I want a build that maximizes her effectiveness against them.
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I do not understand you dae.
You go from saying that Morellos is plenty of mana regen and you don't want Athenes because it doesn't do enough damage, to saying that you should get Athenes AND Morellos, when it's giving you even more mana regen, taking you over the CDR cap, and does much less damage than other item setups.
I could see it if you had some ranked team strategy that involved Lux never getting blue buff, but otherwise, what?
I just get Athenes and a second Fiendish Codex and sit on it. 32-34% CDR is fine, it still drops your ult to under 30 seconds, and when you start chugging blue elixirs you go over 40% anyway.
Athenes->Deathcap->Void Staff->Fiendish Codex/Seekers Armguard->Finish Zhonyas or DFG as needed is the build I'm doing now.
As for Lich Bane, it's good, but I think DFG is better now.
DFG gives you:
1 - More AP
2 - The active is similar to a Lich Bane proc but with a longer range, and teamfights are typically over by the time you get more than 1 lich bane proc to have an affect on the fight outcome.
3 - The ability to hit 40% CDR without blue buff
4 - A much more attractive build path since Fiendish Codex is so hilariously cost efficient right now
That's how I see it anyway.
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DFG gives you:
1 - More AP
2 - The active is similar to a Lich Bane proc but with a longer range, and teamfights are typically over by the time you get more than 1 lich bane proc to have an affect on the fight outcome.
3 - The ability to hit 40% CDR without blue buff
4 - A much more attractive build path since Fiendish Codex is so hilariously cost efficient right now
Seems logical. Ill try that build and see how effective it is. Thats a Q-E-DFG-Ult/popE combo?
Also whereabouts do you think Liandries fits into that build? I feel with all this health stacking that its an important item to have sometimes.
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On February 15 2013 07:59 Purge wrote:Show nested quote +DFG gives you:
1 - More AP
2 - The active is similar to a Lich Bane proc but with a longer range, and teamfights are typically over by the time you get more than 1 lich bane proc to have an affect on the fight outcome.
3 - The ability to hit 40% CDR without blue buff
4 - A much more attractive build path since Fiendish Codex is so hilariously cost efficient right now Seems logical. Ill try that build and see how effective it is. Thats a Q-E-DFG-Ult/popE combo? Also whereabouts do you think Liandries fits into that build? I feel with all this health stacking that its an important item to have sometimes.
I don't use the DFG active in any sort of combo at all. Just save it in case somebody is on you and you need to chunk his health down.
You can use one combo with your ult and a second Q>DFG>E combo later. By your third combo in the fight your ult is back up.
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On February 15 2013 08:02 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 07:59 Purge wrote:DFG gives you:
1 - More AP
2 - The active is similar to a Lich Bane proc but with a longer range, and teamfights are typically over by the time you get more than 1 lich bane proc to have an affect on the fight outcome.
3 - The ability to hit 40% CDR without blue buff
4 - A much more attractive build path since Fiendish Codex is so hilariously cost efficient right now Seems logical. Ill try that build and see how effective it is. Thats a Q-E-DFG-Ult/popE combo? Also whereabouts do you think Liandries fits into that build? I feel with all this health stacking that its an important item to have sometimes. I don't use the DFG active in any sort of combo at all. Just save it in case somebody is on you and you need to chunk his health down. You can use one combo with your ult and a second Q>DFG>E combo later. By your third combo in the fight your ult is back up.
So you kind of use it to replace the ult between ults? Never heard of it being used that way before. Interesting 0.o
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So, I am annoyed.
I am annoyed because reignofgaming recently posted an article: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/diff-the-ender/23231-liandrys-torment-is-incredibly-strong
This article says stuff that is more or less true. Liandry's is a strong item on the right champion. It's a fine article.
The problem with it is he uses Lux as his example, which is WRONG. He specifically says that Liandry is better than Void Staff on Lux, which is NOT true.
Then I had the misfortune of playing a game where somebody on the enemy team was Lux, rushed Liandry's, and when I tried to explain to him after kicking his ass that his build was bad, he cited the Reignofgaming article as proof that his build was good.
It's not good. And I am going to explain why it's not good.
Both of these recent Reignofgaming articles saying that Void Staff outdamages Deathcap and Liandry's outdamages Void Staff look only at math, and do not take into account specific game scenarios.
The reality is for Void Staff vs. Deathcap, that Void Staff does outdamage Deathcap on champions for Lux. However, Deathcap gives you more damage to minions. Critically, it gives you enough AP if you get it fast enough to one shot caster minions with your E. This is very important for Lux, because it allows her to clear much faster and more safely. It allows her to spend more time roaming other lanes, shoving creep waves, it is critical for defending tower sieges, etc. If you don't get the early Deathcap you actually end up missing CS because you get in these positions where your E literally takes creeps to 1-5 hit points and then your minions kill half of them in the time it takes you to autoattack the other half.
But that is not as big of a deal as the whole Liandry's thing. Liandry's is a bad early item for Lux for two reasons.
The first and primary reason is that Liandry burn damage cannot kill people. It is a percentage of their current HP with no minimum amount, meaning that it will never kill the target.
The reason why you get Void Staff on Lux is to ensure that your combo will 100-0 the carry. In a normal game situation you get Deathcap and your mana regen item first. You're then tasked with rushing your Void Staff before or around the same time the other team finishes a Bulwark. Because if they get the Bulwark and you don't have a Void Staff, you can't snipe down their carries as long as they're grouped up. But with the Void Staff you can.
The reality is if you combo somebody, you're going to get them low enough that they aren't going to be in the fight. But in many situations, if you don't have the Void Staff you won't kill them, and with the Void Staff you will. This is what's important. It may be that theoretically Liandry's causes more team damage, but it's not killing their carry, and that's what's important for Lux. Once their carry has been sniped your team can engage 5v4 and kill the rest of their team.
The other issue that I had with the article is that it said that, while Void Staff mathematically does more damage if you do your combo perfectly, you don't do it perfectly and Liandry's realistically ticks for about 5 seconds. This isn't true. The Lux combo is Q E R. The Q snare lasts 2 seconds. If you were waiting 2 seconds between Q and E R the person wouldn't be snared anymore and you could dodge it. Yes you probably aren't chaining the spells perfectly, but Liandry's is ticking for somewhere between 3 and 4 seconds, not 5 seconds. The math in the article is skewed to favor Liandry's, is what I'm saying.
Furthermore, Void Staff increases the damage of your passive procs, while Liandry's does not, which the article fails to mention. It is also better vs. minions.
I'm not saying that Liandry's is a bad item on Lux. It is a fine 5th item. I'm getting DFG as my 5th item these days because I like that with Athenes+DFG+Blue Elixir I can let somebody else on my team take blue buffs. (This is another issue I've had with reignofgaming recently, they used Lux as a good candidate for CDR runes because it's so hard to get 40% CDR on her which is also completely goddamn wrong. I wish I had better mastery options than the tier 1 CDR mastery because I think it's useless post about 11 minutes into the game.) But if you want to get Liandry's as your 4th-5th item that's fine.
But get Deathcap and Void Staff first. They're better, and the reignofgaming article is wrong.
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Further complaints about the ROG article:
he conflates the Haunting Guise part of Liandry with the Liandry proc part of liandry. 15 MPen works bloody fine for Lux (in low MR cases, it works better than 35% MPen, causing some of his numbers where Liandry outperforms VS on low MR targets), but DOES NOT MEAN you need to get the whole damn item. Lux can build a haunting guise and benefit from it. Liandry is garbage until potentially late game.
He also claims that "only annie bot" can cast spells in extremely quick succession, which is bullshit.
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It's especially bullshit because Lux's snare travels slow enough that you can literally have all 3 spells in the combo out before the snare hits, and are often waiting to see if the snare hits before casting your ult.
Early haunting guise is fine. I'm rushing Athenes these days, but a lot of pro Lux players are doing Tear + Haunting Guise as their early items, and that's fine. I feel like the Athenes rush gives you more leeway to be stupid, which is important for me, because I do stupid things.
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On February 22 2013 03:39 Ketara wrote:
Both of these recent Reignofgaming articles saying that Void Staff outdamages Deathcap and Liandry's outdamages Void Staff look only at math, and do not take into account specific game scenarios.
[...]
But get Deathcap and Void Staff first. They're better, and the reignofgaming article is wrong.
the beauty/usefulness of statistics isn't in making badass graphs (although they are nice), but trying to sort out relevant data from irrelevant data and bridging the gap between function and computation.
the article and the attached conclusions are made with certain assumptions which are understandable if you go and try to do those computations yourself, but, as you've pointed out, one can assert functional flaws for how those numbers carry out into the game, especially something like liandrys which is very conditional on the situation and not just flat damage you can compare. something worth considering is that the liandrys proc benefits from a certain style of 'spellcasting' -- rather than simply dropping your q/e/r on a single target as fast as possible, you could be spreading your e/q to different targets and be doing a lot more gross damage to the enemy team even though you are less capable of getting a single direct kill. this might be more appropriate in certain team comps or against certain team compositions.
analogous to this would be trying to figure out how valuable a sheen (or lich bane) is on lux. while in THEORY these items can add a fuckton to your damage output (something that for some reason i try to rationalize to myself on pretty much every champion i try to learn ever), to get that damage you need to change how you are casting spells (spreading them out in rhythm with the sheen proc) and be getting a lot closer to enemies to land AAs. similarly the efficacy in which you can ignite lux's passive corresponds to greater value derived from any magic penetration vs. AP since the passive does not scale with AP.
im not trying to disagree with you or disagree with the article or defend one viewpoint or the other, just trying to chime in that i don't really like the idea of saying one thing is always wrong and the other is always right. the thing that bothers me most about your post is that the person in your game reads an article and immediately starts blindly following it. people are way too comfortable with the idea of sticking to hard, unbreakable rules that they don't even understand the purpose for in the first place.
also another thing not really broached is the "buildup". to build a rabadons you need to save up 1600g at one point, whereas a liandrys involves cheaper purchases, as does void staff. since you can't always control when you are shopping this suggests to me that may play a role in why you might build one item in one game and a different one in another.
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He crunches numbers and gives you some pretty graph showing the potential damage under some assumptions. At the end it is YOU who need to land the snare and make the plays.... so.....
Cut the guy some slack.
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Nobody gets any slack when it comes to my Lux. She's too good for misinterpretable graphs. She needs real substance man.
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EPT
