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We don't have a Ziggs thread and I kinda have a thing for grinning crazy ass characters that cackle away while killing stuff and right now he is my #1 ap choice so here we go.
Champion description:
Ziggs is in my opinion the best underused ap mid out there right now.He's farm potential is insane due to his clear speed and the ability to hog wraith camps.Armed with a very strong poke coupled with skills that grant you very good zoning ability and a 5300 range ult he is a bundle of explosive fun and you won't regret picking him up.He's weakness is his mobility and mediocre scale on most of his ability's,high mana costs so you are highly dependent on blue buff,longer cast animations on most of his spells and he is a very squishy champion.Good news is you can repair his crucial weaknesses.
Patch notes:
+ Show Spoiler +Hexplosive Mines
Mana cost reduced to 70/80/90/100/110 from 80/90/100/110/120
Slow duration reduced to 1.5 seconds from 2
Damage from 2nd and subsequent mines reduced to 40% from 50%
Fixed a bug where Ziggs' Mad Scientist skin was leaving particles on the map (Hotfixed 2/21)
Bouncing Bomb
Mana cost reduced to 50/60/70/80/90 from 60/70/80/90/100
Satchel Charge
Knockback range on Ziggs has increased
Knockup height on enemies has increased
Mega Inferno Bomb
Secondary damage increased to 80% from 75%
Ziggs abilities:
Passive:
Short fuse
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v4gnh.jpg)
(Innate): Every 12 seconds, Ziggs' next basic attack deals 13 + (7 × level) (+0.35 per ability power) bonus magic damage. This cooldown is reduced by 4 seconds whenever Ziggs uses an ability.
This is what makes ziggs a very strong lane champ.Trading with ziggs early on is generally a very bad idea because of this passive.You will also have a very easy time last hitting with ziggs than with any other ap mid.
The passive is best utilized as harass once you get comfortable with ziggs.
Q:
Bouncing bomb
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eHYWc.jpg)
(Active): Ziggs throws a bomb to a target area. If the bomb doesn't hit any enemy in the area, it will bounce two times more or until it hits an enemy. The bomb will explode and deal magic damage in an area upon hitting an enemy or bouncing twice.
Details:
+ Show Spoiler +Range to First Bounce: 850
Maximum Range: 1400 (estimate)
Explosion radius: 150 (estimate)
Cost: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 mana
Cooldown: 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4 seconds
Magic Damage: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+0.65 per ability power)
Your bread and butter ability that you take first and should max first after ult.Use it to harass people in lane,clear creeps,poke people to death,etc.The interesting component to this spell is the bounce,now it feels kinda awkward the first few times you play ziggs because the bomb may end up skipping over your target if you fail to correctly estimate where to throw it.Once you get used to the bounce there are some really sneaky things you can do with it.Because of the insane range on this spell its very hard for most champions to zone ziggs(if you get killed for instance and fall behind).By correctly placing the bounce you can overshoot the first line of melee creeps for instance to hit the back line if you find yourself in a position where you don't feel comfortable coming near to kill them with the innate range let alone to last hit with your auto.The other great component to this ability is that it has a blast radius,and well,the best part about that is barely killing someone within the radius and watching him type in allchat  I wasn't even close to it.Gets me every time.
W:
Satchel Charge
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dfpir.jpg)
(Active): Ziggs flings an explosive charge to a nearby target area that will detonate after 4 seconds or when the ability is activated again. The explosion will deal magic damage to enemies knocking them away slightly. Additionally, if Ziggs is caught in the explosion, he will be knocked away a greater distance, without taking any damage.
Details:
+ Show Spoiler +
Cost: 65 mana
Range: 1000
Explosion radius: 225 (estimate)
Maximum knockback distance:
Enemy: 500 (estimate)
Self: 700 (estimate)
Sight Radius: 400 (estimate)
Cooldown: 30 / 27 / 24 / 21 / 18 seconds
Magic Damage: 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 (+0.35 per ability power)
First things first.THIS IS NOT A NUKE ABILITY.Do not treat as such.It has terrible scaling,a long ass cooldown and terrible damage as you max it last.Resist the temptation at all cost to try to damage people(unless you are going to kill them ofc) with it or clear creeps.
This is a mini flash and your only escape outside of your summoners(well you kinda have E to slow people chasing you but I wouldn't count on that later on to get away safely) .Using this ability the right way is what separates good ziggs players from great ones.In lane phase when you are getting ganked,try to avoid placing it directly under yourself,throw it rather a few steps behind you unless someone jumps directly on top of you and you really need to make some space between yourself and the enemy.The reason is you may panic and catapult yourself into the wrong direction by accident.Also avoid using it at the last second,the spell has a longer cast animation than comfortable for such a important escape mechanism.The bomb itself,when you drop it down,stays there for 4 seconds so as soon as you see someone coming close to you drop it down behind you and use it if you need it.The best way to position yourself with ziggs in teamfights is close to a ledge or a wall as you can easily jump over with this if you find yourself in danger.
That being said,in a situation where you are chasing a enemy and trying to secure a kill you can use this to knock them back towards yourself.But again,you must be certain that you are in no innate danger of getting jumped on.
The last thing you can use this ability as,and sometimes its not the worst idea,like a short lifespan ward as you approach a unwarded brush.
It's a very good idea to take this skill at lvl 2 right after your Q as it can be a life saver against champions that gank early.
E:
Hexplosive Minefield
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7s5G1.jpg)
(Active): Ziggs scatters 11 proximity mines in a circular area nearby, each will detonate on enemy contact, dealing magic damage and slowing them for 1.5 seconds. Enemies who have already hit a mine will take 40% damage from additional mines. The mines are visible to all players and last for 10 seconds.
Details:
+ Show Spoiler +Cooldown: 16 seconds
Range: 900
Minefield radius: 250 (estimate)
Activation radius: 75 (estimate)
Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 mana
Magic Damage from First Mine: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+0.3 per ability power)
Magic Damage from Additional Mines: 16 / 26 / 36 / 46 / 56 (+0.12 per ability power)
Total Possible Single Target Magic Damage: 200 / 325 / 450 / 575 / 700 (+1.5 per ability power)
Slow: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%
Great zoning skill.This will allow you to hit your Qs more consistently as it will either slow your enemy or force it to move in a predictable pattern.It plays a important part in your farming as well.EQ combo enables ziggs to clear creeps very fast and push the lane.Once you clear all the creeps in lane use the combo to clear the wraiths.Throw the E over the wall first and than follow up with a quick Q and one auto with your passive on the big wraith will usually be enough to clear the whole camp.People for some reason are magically attracted by these cute little bombs and love to trip over them.It has pretty wide radius and you can close of entire path ways with the mines to escape or prevent people from escaping.
You can take it at lvl 2 if you feel like you are not in danger of getting ganked early on by someone like jarvan,lee,rammus,alistar or maokai.If you think you need W more take this skill at lvl 3 and max it after Q.
Ultimate:
Mega Inferno Bomb
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jo8hR.jpg)
(Active): Ziggs deploys the Mega Inferno Bomb, hurling it an enormous distance to a target area. Enemies in the center of the explosion area will take a great amount of magic damage, while enemies away from the primary blast zone will take 80% of that damage.
Details:
+ Show Spoiler +Cost: 100 mana
Range: 5300
Primary explosion radius: 275 (estimate)
Secondary explosion radius: 550 (estimate)
Sight Radius: 700 (estimate)
Cooldown: 120 / 105 / 90 seconds
Primary Magic Damage: 250 / 375 / 500 (+0.9 per ability power)
Secondary Area Magic Damage: 187.5 / 281.25 / 375 (+0.675 per ability power)
A heavy long range nuke with terrific scale.
This is one of the things that makes ziggs a high skill cap champion.The ability to time your ult correctly to hit people running away or sniping a dragon,blue buff or baron is crucial to learn if you want to be a effective ziggs.
The feeling when you snipe a baron with the ult is priceless.This ult has a +0.9 scale in the primary blast radius and late game will hit for 1k+ damage in the center.
If used correctly it's pretty had to dodge and often the enemy has to flash or gets zoned so hard that it guarantees a certain death.
MS ZIGGS GUIDE
Description:
+ Show Spoiler +Ziggs suffers from two crucial weaknesses and that is why he is unpopular.He has high costs and is slow as balls but he doesn't have very good mobility apart from his jump.You can fix these things with runes and early itemization and he will become outstanding.
MS Ziggs will enable you to completely trash lanes that simple don't have the range to hurt you consistently or a blink like kassadin.It will also allow you to escape ganks and survive dives.
Summoners:
+ Show Spoiler +Ignite and flash are pretty much a no brainer.Consider cleanse against something like veigar maybe.
Masteris:
+ Show Spoiler +21/0/9
If you didn't know already take brute force and not shitty mental force.Depending on how you plan to play either take swiftness or meditation,if you want to harass early with your Q take meditation.If not take swiftness,you'll get enough mana regen soon enough anyways.
Runes:
+ Show Spoiler +
Quints:Move speed-just do it,trust me.In combination with chalice ziggs goes from a frail and slow hamster,to speedy gonzales,you will be able to escape ganks,dodge any kind of spells,poke people safely,just anything,MS quints is one of the most important things on ziggs imo.
Blues:ap per lvl
Red:magic pen
Yellow:what ever you prefer here honestly,you can go for mr,ap,mana regen,health per lvl w/e.I know mana regen seems like a no brainer but you will get your chalice and rings pretty fast and pushing lanes until you get lvl 4 isn't a good idea anyways so you shouldn't starve yourself out on mana at the start.
Item build:
+ Show Spoiler +Start:boots+3 always,do not go to lane without boots ever,ziggs move speed is atrocious you need them to harass,escape and to prevent getting abused in lane in general
Early:first back if you went back early grab a quick ring and a ward if you have enough money,if you went back later get ring and chalice.Chalice of harmony will make your life so easy on ziggs it's unreal.Ziggs without chalice is one of the most blue dependent ap mids,with chalice and 1-2 rings he is perfectly fine even without blue buff and can still farm like a mad man.
Core:Rush deathcap.It's the most damage for gold cost and the best ap item so no need for explanations there.
After Dcap if you are doing really good and farmed your ass off,rush a lich bane,if think you won't be able to complete any time soon and you are getting your blue buff denied,finish up your grail.What ever you do do not rush grail,it's pointless,chalice of harmony is all you need for lane phase.
Finish your build with void staff and zhonyas.
So a full build on ziggs should look like this:
Sorc boots,Deathcap,Lichbane,Grail,Void Staff,Zhonyas.
Play style
+ Show Spoiler +Early game you just want to focus on cs generally without pushing the lane,unless its a kassadin/leblanch/veigar/fizz,than you want to try to harass them as much as possible and push the lane as you reach lvl 4,you can generally escape ganks pretty safely without burning flash due to your MS quints.If they have something like a maokai or alistar refrain from pushing too hard until your first back and buy a ward.Early on it's irrelevant which side you ward but stick to the side you warded if you push.
As soon as your get chalice and rings start pushing,and I mean it.Just pretend you are a mordekeiser.Clear the caster minions with a Q+E combo,eventually you will start to outscale the caster minions are you will be able to one shot them with Q alone,if not and you have a pretty good ward coverage you can clear the back with Q and W to conserve some mana and save the E for the front melee row,I generally advise against this tho as W is your only escape.
When you are done with your wave clear your wraiths and rinse and repeat until you need to go back or go OOM.
So the idea is to just farm,farm farm.When you go back ALWAYS buy a ward to ward their wraiths.It is extremely unsafe to go for them if you don't have the side warded even tho you can clear the camp with Q+E and a auto on the big wraith.Do your wraiths as well,heck if you have time and jungle isn't around do the wolves as well,generally you can't do this early as you don't have enough ap to do it before the wave comes again.
ALWAYS be aware of other lanes once you hit 6 and ult accordingly.I generally advise against roaming unless it leads to a dragon fight,you have enough map presence as it is just be sure to ping when your lane goes mia.
You should aim for at least 200-210 cs by the 20 minute mark,it's actually scary easy to do it with ziggs.
Teamfights are the most demanding thing with ziggs,you need to learn how to position properly and when to auto with your lich bane proc and when not.This is where MS ziggs shines though,you will have more than enough move speed with lich bane and ms quints to move around,reposition and kite.
Having a ziggs is a lot like kogmaw,poke people with Q and zone with E force them to move and bully them away from their tower.
That's about it,playing ziggs properly has a lot to do with experience because it is really not easy as it sounds but once you get it he is amazing.
Champions that are hard matchups for Ziggs:
+ Show Spoiler +Leblanc: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RZ6Dl.png) She's a pain in the ass for most ap mids.You can beat her early on but if you don't score a kill with your jungler or something drastic you wont be able to hurt her later on.Ziggs is weak against champions like that who can just jump you and you can't do much to retaliate.The moast annoying this is she will anticipate your projectiles and than jump you.Avoid picking ziggs against her.If you get counterpicked I suggest you ask your jungler to try gank her early over and over.Chalice and rings will help you survive but if you still find it's not enough get buy mr boots and another mantle(it's a component of lich bane so it won't go to waste). Kassadin: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/isu8O.png) Ok so against kassadin you will be in a slightly different situation.The huge difference in this machup is that kassadin is a melee auto attacker.This enables you to absolutely dominate his ass pre 6 and get a decent lead on him which will help you survive later on.When he goes in to last hit a creep just throw mines around him and you will chunk him for a decent amount of his health,you can punish him really really hard and make him sweat for every cs before 6.Do the same build as with LB. Others: These are pretty much the only two champions I have a problem with right now.I used to have problems with ahri as well and fizz but with this build you should be able to farm no problem and never be in danger of getting one shotted. Zyra and Gragas are pretty OP now and I think that they are a hard matchup against anyone now really,don't put yourself in danger against them and just clear your waves and farm from a safe distance.
Happy farming!
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nice writeup. i dont play ziggs but i can certainly say it is one annoying champ to play against when theres no retard controlling him.
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Interesting choice on the Lichbane....I was trying to think about why that's not a good idea, but honestly he does spam his spells often enough/auto that it MIGHT be worth it. (Technically his passive is sorta like a LB proc anyway, but whateva)
Ideally you're not going to want to be autoattacking at all, rather sieging turrets during a push is where Ziggs does his best work, but I find myself running all over the place autoing/flinging myself over walls/kiting in teamfights enough that the little extra defense and duelling ability might be kinda nice. I'll have to give it a shot at some point.
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On April 05 2012 21:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Interesting choice on the Lichbane....I was trying to think about why that's not a good idea, but honestly he does spam his spells often enough/auto that it MIGHT be worth it. (Technically his passive is sorta like a LB proc anyway, but whateva)
Ideally you're not going to want to be autoattacking at all, rather sieging turrets during a push is where Ziggs does his best work, but I find myself running all over the place autoing/flinging myself over walls/kiting in teamfights enough that the little extra defense and duelling ability might be kinda nice. I'll have to give it a shot at some point.
Yea,as I said I can't really tell you when or if ever you want lich bane,its just a cool item imo .
But I'd like to add that it doesn't just add a little extra to your duelling ability.It adds A LOT.Your passive charged basic attack coupled with a lich bane proc turns it into a second Q that hits real hard as you will probably be getting it at a point in the game where you have 500-550 ap.
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I don't really like rylais on him. The only skill that really benefits from it is the q and even that only gets the small slow due to being aoe. When I want health, I actually get a Warmogs on him.
Lich Bane is really good on him and depending on the game, I might get it 2nd after Deathcap. Usually I prefer getting Wota and/or Void Staff before it though and Lichbane later, if the game actually lasts long enough. Lichbane is absurd for poking towers down and with Ziggs skills he can usually zone enough to get a hit in safely. Movementspeed is always good and since Ziggs has above average attack range, you can usually get auto attacks in during teamfights.
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He's been free this week, so I've been trying to get good with him. He has some insane farm.
I don't think rylai's is very good on him either. You already have a slow, and your abilities have a huge range, so you don't need the slow from rylai's. Plus, all of his abilities are AOE so you only get the 15% slow. And then there's the +500 health; additional health is generally a poor choice on an AP carry, and is an especially poor choice on a long-range ap carry like ziggs. Ziggs is so squishy that the 500 health won't do anything for you if you get caught.
I like morello's after his core of ring x2 + sorc boots + deathcap + void staff. Morello's + blue buff = 40% cdr, it has good AP, and decent mana regen.
Late-game, depends on the enemy comp/who's fed. If you need armor, go for Zhonya's. If you want pure AP, go for AA staff. If you have another strong AP champ on your team, get WotA. If you need/want more burst, get Lich Bane. If you need MR, get Abyssal Scepter.
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I reached level 30 this evening and to amuse myself I decided to play Ziggs. After about ten games I finally got the hang of him. In the last game I'm cruising along at 7-2, and our team is on its way to an easy win. We are running out of their base and I'm a little slow, so I use the W to jettison myself to safety. BANG, experiment gone haywire, Ziggs launches directly backwards into five enemies. I just lol'd.
If you're looking for a champion to just mess around with, this guy is crazy fun.
I started sapphire/hpot/mpot, and went 2x Dring into RoA, then Deathcap, followed by some other stuff. No idea if that's a good build but it seemed to work alright.
I too think the Scepter is wasted on Ziggs. I had about 2900 HP once my RoA maxed out, and that seems like a pretty solid amount (vitality seals and the HP defense masteries).
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Baa?21243 Posts
Stop building shitty no AP items like rylai and morellos, rings hat void lich bane zhonya all you need.
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On April 09 2012 18:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Stop building shitty no AP items like rylai and morellos, rings hat void lich bane zhonya all you need.
Morello's is good for Ziggs in particular since his passive scales with CDR. lower cooldown = more abilities = faster passive proc. Also, 75 AP is shitty? hmm.....
You can still get morello's and have boots/dcap/void/lich bane/zhonya's :D
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To me post blue nerf Ziggs is a RoA/AAstaff champion, siegeing for any amount of time is impossible without some mana items. as someone mentioned earlier Rylai's isn't that great on Ziggs, so RoA can provide a nice health boost.
and Ziggs is amazing for sieging, it's like having AoE nidalee spear.
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On April 10 2012 01:41 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 18:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Stop building shitty no AP items like rylai and morellos, rings hat void lich bane zhonya all you need. Morello's is good for Ziggs in particular since his passive scales with CDR. lower cooldown = more abilities = faster passive proc. Also, 75 AP is shitty? hmm..... You can still get morello's and have boots/dcap/void/lich bane/zhonya's :D
Morellos is just a bad item. You way overshoot the cdr cap with masteries blue pot and the blue buff you should have and in a world where deathfire grasp exists, why would you ever want morellos?
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On April 10 2012 01:50 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 01:41 BlasiuS wrote:On April 09 2012 18:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Stop building shitty no AP items like rylai and morellos, rings hat void lich bane zhonya all you need. Morello's is good for Ziggs in particular since his passive scales with CDR. lower cooldown = more abilities = faster passive proc. Also, 75 AP is shitty? hmm..... You can still get morello's and have boots/dcap/void/lich bane/zhonya's :D Morellos is just a bad item. You way overshoot the cdr cap with masteries blue pot and the blue buff you should have and in a world where deathfire grasp exists, why would you ever want morellos?
DFG is definitely a great alternative to morello's, no doubt. My main point was to include at least 1 CDR item, since CDR is especially good for ziggs compared to most AP carries.
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I personally dont like DFG on ziggs. Basically because I dont even want to get close enough to use DFG. I like to stay as far away as possible. I mostly nuke them down with Q, prevent escape with mines, kill them with R, and save satchel for escape.
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So much utility for this level of damage! And so much fun. However I find he's a bit blocked concerning build paths, he really needs tons of ap to do good damages because of his ratios and his range. Anyway, it's a really fun champ.
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Did an overhaul of the OP and added my MS ziggs build,hope you like it:D
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USING THIS RIGHT NOW IN RANKED YOU BETTER NOT FAIL ME >:T
edit- just won a 4v5. good build haha
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I forgot to mention it in the guide but this build is like a hard counter to ryze.Ryze can't deal with pushers very well,with MS quints even if he hits ult he can't walk up to you lol you are 2 fast wush~
You will easily finish the lane phase with far superior cs numbers + you deny him roaming.
His only hope of actually killing you is if he flash stuns you and than the jungle flashes after you as well.It's pretty much the same thing with anyone that has no way of fast wave clearing or a blink to punish you.
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Baa?21243 Posts
You already shit on Ryze why do you need special runes to do it?
Also chalice is completely unnecessary since they buffed his mana costs. Ziggs' mana costs are like non existent right now it's kinda silly lol.
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I just gave ryze as an example.His mana cost is still there,they lowerd the cost on the Q but that's about it and you will go oom without blue if you spam too much,chalice lets you spam like a mofo gives you a decent amount of mr along with lichbane and makes sure you never go oom no matter what you do.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:23 TheKefka wrote:
I just gave ryze as an example,and his mana cost is still there,they lowerd the cost on the Q but that's about it and you will go oom without blue,chalice lets you spam like a mofo gives you a decent amount of mr along with lichbane and makes sure you never go oom no matter what you do.
i mean...what else can i say besides spam less spells unnecessarily? chalice is 100% unnecessary...
Getting a grail lategame for extended sieges/defenses when you might not have blue is fine, but chalice during laning just delays your damage and makes you useless for 890 extra gold...
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I mean I don't know what to say besides if you clear the wave,wraiths and their wraiths and harass again and again you will go oom lol.
With chalice you can just hurl bombs at them and make them miss cs along with clearing anything you want.
Besides it makes you fucking hard to kill.
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Baa?21243 Posts
you can do all the things you described with 2 rings, mp5/lvl yellows, and the mp5 utility mastery...
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I guess you have your experiences I have mine idk.
I can guarantee you if you do this tho you will never(well almost,you know what I mean) die in lane pretty much,but if you think your way is better than by all means do so.
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On August 09 2012 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can do all the things you described with 2 rings, mp5/lvl yellows, and the mp5 utility mastery...
Have you ever TRIED building chalice?
It's paradise.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:34 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can do all the things you described with 2 rings, mp5/lvl yellows, and the mp5 utility mastery... Have you ever TRIED building chalice? It's paradise.
yes; i did no damage and was useless for 20 minutes because my items couldn't keep up.
why chalice sucks:
1. you could've had a blasting wand with the gold - times where you could instant clear casters with q, they live with a sliver of hp
2. you could've had sorc boots - mpen + ms (which OP prizes so much) servers you so muich better than mana regen and some mr
3. the mr is useless - you're probably dead if you're gonna be trading straight up with an enemy ap, mr or no mr.
4. ziggs has really high ap scaling, rushing ap is so incredibly important on him if he wants to be relevant in fights and keep up with enemy damage
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1.It actually doesn't matter because they still live.Meaning you still have to hit them again,it would be very good if you runed and itemized to get to a breaking point where you could one shot them but this way you still have to waste one more round.
2.You get your boots same time as the other ap mid,your still at an advantage without them so yea I guess you could but I like chalice better at lower lvls
3.No its not....I just played a game 10 minutes ago and survived a gragas ult coupled with a alistar gank with 20 hp...It actually makes a lot of difference to have a good amount of mr when a ap caster unloads on you or someone like kassadin is slowly trying to chip you away,not to long ago people were coming to lane with full mr pages,some still do.
4.Ziggs actually has mediocre scale,only his ult has a high scale but only in the primary blast radius which is not that big.
I agree with you that getting as much ap as soon as possible on ziggs is good,but the idea of this is that you keep your lane pushed at all times so it can't roam,he looses cs while you push and harass him,you get immense farm and a decent amount of ap when the teamfights start.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:47 TheKefka wrote:
1.It actually doesn't matter because they still live.Meaning you still have to hit them again,it would be very good if you runed and itemized to get to a breaking point where you could one shot them
if you don't understand why this point is important then there's no point saying anything else lol it's such a basic thing...
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I understand it lol I just said if you get to the breaking point its good lol,
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Baa?21243 Posts
it's not just good it's crucial...
sometimes its just unrealistic to stay and hit them again, for a variety of reasons. their mid roamed bot and you have to instantly clear to follow; their mid went b and you want to shove to roam or go back or whatever; theres a jungler waiting to gank you and you need to instantly clear while staying at tower; etc etc etc.
it's something thats so crucial to mid lane and yet you dismiss it as "it doesnt matter" lol
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What I meant was if you get to the point where you one shot the back wave its really good yea,but it doesn't matter right as you buy the staff because they actually still live with like 2 hp meaning you still have to hit them again.It "doesn't matter" tho with a chalice because you can spam your ass off as much as you want and you still wont go oom,your Q has a short as cd so throwing another Q out with a chalice is meaningless for your mana and time.You can insta clear the back row with QE anyway.
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Baa?21243 Posts
gonna gloat cuz he got permmed so it means everything i said is right
does anyone knwo if any pros take barrier on ziggs besides oddone when he's trolo qing?
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one and a half year later, csheep achieved victory
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Baa?21243 Posts
Voyboy is running Barrier in LCS vs. Kayle and Vi right now.
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Alot of the pro's on Ziggs pick barrier, probably thinking that if you're in range to use ignite you're not playing Ziggs right.
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can you make ADC from ziggs? on WePlay stream someone was playing with him, but didnt work well, any thoughts? =)
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On February 03 2014 22:13 fastandfury wrote:
can you make ADC from ziggs?
Not well. He has four abilities and a passive that scale off of AP. Thus building some AP is probably a reasonable idea on him.
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On February 03 2014 22:13 fastandfury wrote:
can you make ADC from ziggs? on WePlay stream someone was playing with him, but didnt work well, any thoughts? =)
Yes, but it won't be that good. He has a self escape/peel in his w and e, but he has pretty much no steroid (attack speed or attack damage), with his only steroid scaling with AP and CDR, not attack speed crit or ad..
You could probably make it work decently, since he has such good tools to keep himself alive, but he will be doing less damage then Caitlyn.
Edit: I'm almost 100% sure that at all stages of the game AP Ziggs does more burst and sustained damage then AD Ziggs, from farther away, so playing AD Ziggs is sub optimal in every case. He is a brokenly strong champion right now, so even if your playing him sub optimally it might be decent, but AP is always better.
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Baa?21243 Posts
I played the best Ziggs game a few days ago, my build went:
Dring > Boots > Dring > Sorcs > Nashor's Tooth > Bloodthirster > Triforce > Last Whisper > Rageblade > holyshitrageblade is the wrost item ever > Sell Rageblade > Frozen Mallet
Sugoi.
+ Show Spoiler + AD Ziggs only sucks because his AS growth is 2% a level which is below the 3.5%-4% range you find on most ADCs. Those with the 1% - 2.5% range (Jinx and Ezreal mainly) have insane steroids to make up for it. Ziggs' BAT is actually ok, about on par with a lot of the popular ADs, but the poor growth + lack of steroid on any skill makes it completely troll. Doesn't mean you should do it though huehue.
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This is my build for ziggs now. I think if ziggs is built right it's nearly impossible to win against him. currently 4-1 on him where my only loss was an absolutely useless jayce on my team that fed a top lee sin. we're talking 3/12 jayce and a 15/3 lee sin. I will be maining ziggs as my mid to climb back to diamond, currently gold 3.
Poke/control ziggs: I believe this is by far the best way to build ziggs
25/0/5 with 4 points into the AD portion of masteries
red: magic pen. yellow: scaling mana regen. blue: scaling AP. quint: 1 flat mana regen and 2 flat AP or movespeed
morello, athenes, sorc boots, zhonyas, deathcap, dfg/other.
This is the build, pretty simple, the biggest difference you'll see is that you are squishy, and you'll have very very high mana regen. The way I play this is to lob my skills all day, and if I can get a very safe auto off I do. Use your ult whenever off cooldown. going 2 dorans into athenes is the best build path for this.
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I think having that as an alternate setup when you're going against a team with no engage or just a terrible team comp is useful, but I don't think it's practical to have as your primary setup.
The mana regen yellows from season 2 was when the top 3 mids were karthus, anivia, and orianna. Come season 4, we have to deal with yasuos, talons, vi, rengar, evelynn, etc. There are other champ combos that have enough of a kill potential to kill a ziggs early game.
I don't think using a full setup of mana regen yellows in place of armor or health yellows is worth the risk of getting screwed over early game just so you can spam more bombs.
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You should never need armor in mid unless you're against an AD mid, then of course you use a page to counter them. 12hp is not going to make you survive your lane any better in nearly any case. And 11 mana regen late game is worth a lot more than 200 hp to ziggs. if they do engage and you can't escape, what is 200 hp to a talon? ziggs has a hard disengage/escape, an aoe slow, and an extremely long range skill.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8dGT6LR.jpg)
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On July 15 2014 02:13 GreggSauce wrote:
This is my build for ziggs now. I think if ziggs is built right it's nearly impossible to win against him. currently 4-1 on him where my only loss was an absolutely useless jayce on my team that fed a top lee sin. we're talking 3/12 jayce and a 15/3 lee sin. I will be maining ziggs as my mid to climb back to diamond, currently gold 3.
Poke/control ziggs: I believe this is by far the best way to build ziggs
25/0/5 with 4 points into the AD portion of masteries
red: magic pen. yellow: scaling mana regen. blue: scaling AP. quint: 1 flat mana regen and 2 flat AP or movespeed
morello, athenes, sorc boots, zhonyas, deathcap, dfg/other.
This is the build, pretty simple, the biggest difference you'll see is that you are squishy, and you'll have very very high mana regen. The way I play this is to lob my skills all day, and if I can get a very safe auto off I do. Use your ult whenever off cooldown. going 2 dorans into athenes is the best build path for this.
Tbh aslong as you get Athenes and dont build totally troll i dont think it matters what you build on Ziggs, he automatically makes the game like 3x harder to win
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I don't deny that having the extra mana regen late game is worth more than an extra 200 hp or 9 armor. And I didn't question your record with ziggs.
Most people setup rune pages for early game advantages where small points in stats give you the most benefits. Mana regen is not very useful early game. If you think your early game and your laning is fine without armor or hp yellows, then by all means go for a late game set up.
In my experience, I've managed to get out of a lot hairy situations with a sliver of health. I'm pretty sure I have the armor and health runes to thank for that. I don't run out of mana very much with athenes, even after the nerf.
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In order for ziggs to be able to spam all of his spells during an extended seige he needs like 10 m/5 more than athenes+morello+scaling mana+blue buff gives you. I do think when I get back up to high plat/diamond I may have to change my rune pages slightly. I personally prefer late game rune pages for mid/top and early game from jungle/bot lane. Mid was all early game when the assassin meta existed but now most have been shut down so they don't matter as much as they used to.
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Well if spamming all of those abilities is really what is getting you the win, then okay. I siege with just athenes and I never run into any mana problems. The limiting factor to how many bombs I throw is my CDR, not my mana.
And I rarely play with/against an extended siege comp anymore. It's always some kind of split pushing/jungle fighting/tower diving/crazy engage team, where I don't have the luxury of sitting mid and throwing bombs all day.
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On July 15 2014 08:14 imBLIND wrote:
Well if spamming all of those abilities is really what is getting you the win, then okay. I siege with just athenes and I never run into any mana problems. The limiting factor to how many bombs I throw is my CDR, not my mana.
And I rarely play with/against an extended siege comp anymore. It's always some kind of split pushing/jungle fighting/tower diving/crazy engage team, where I don't have the luxury of sitting mid and throwing bombs all day.
if you are bombing on cd with just athenes you are going to run oom really quickly
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On July 15 2014 03:48 GreggSauce wrote:You should never need armor in mid unless you're against an AD mid, then of course you use a page to counter them. 12hp is not going to make you survive your lane any better in nearly any case. And 11 mana regen late game is worth a lot more than 200 hp to ziggs. if they do engage and you can't escape, what is 200 hp to a talon? ziggs has a hard disengage/escape, an aoe slow, and an extremely long range skill.
Why do you have two Zhonya's in one of those games...
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On July 15 2014 09:13 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 03:48 GreggSauce wrote:You should never need armor in mid unless you're against an AD mid, then of course you use a page to counter them. 12hp is not going to make you survive your lane any better in nearly any case. And 11 mana regen late game is worth a lot more than 200 hp to ziggs. if they do engage and you can't escape, what is 200 hp to a talon? ziggs has a hard disengage/escape, an aoe slow, and an extremely long range skill. Why do you have two Zhonya's in one of those games...
2zhonyas1cup
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On July 15 2014 08:18 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 08:14 imBLIND wrote:
Well if spamming all of those abilities is really what is getting you the win, then okay. I siege with just athenes and I never run into any mana problems. The limiting factor to how many bombs I throw is my CDR, not my mana.
And I rarely play with/against an extended siege comp anymore. It's always some kind of split pushing/jungle fighting/tower diving/crazy engage team, where I don't have the luxury of sitting mid and throwing bombs all day. if you are bombing on cd with just athenes you are going to run oom really quickly
I don't bomb on cd, I bomb when I think I can hit someone
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if you are going to go 6 damage item ziggs I can't think of any situation where LB wouldn't be one of them
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On July 15 2014 10:13 Slusher wrote:
if you are going to go 6 damage item ziggs I can't think of any situation where LB wouldn't be one of them
Id probably rather have it over DFG but i dunno.
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wouldn't even think twice
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On July 15 2014 10:16 Slusher wrote:
wouldn't even think twice
Seems like situationally Morellos would be better, and in those circumstances id rather have Void than the DFG that guy got tbh.(referring tot hose pictures)
Ga would also be good after Athenes/Void/Hat/Zhonyas too
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well the "6 damage item" in the first comment is referring to the fact that Ziggs does not really need 6 offensive items to do obscene damage.
Morello's is highly situational, does the other team have something like Nasus, Mundo, Voli that takes a year to kill? is Morello's good on my teams support? am I vs. an AP in mid lane?
lb isn't needed in a 5 offensive item build but it becomes increasingly important if
a)my adc has bad siege (twitch)
b) they have a melee carry who is extremely fast, Akali and Yasuo are the main offenders here.
lastly on the topic of getting a defensive item it's pretty much just how you feel about the game, because in a lot of situations Ziggs can easily stay safe enough to go for 0, but at the same time at 5 items his damage is so disgusting if your team is really far ahead just being unkillable is sometimes more powerful.
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on the topic of Morello's, it's a great item, the problem is just that it occupies the same item arch type as the single most versatile and slot effective item in the game, if you can use all of the stats (which is basically any time you are vs. an ap mid) it accelerates your farm so much to grab Athene's that it actually sets you behind to buy Morello's
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DFG makes very little sense on Ziggs. He isn't a burst champion. Lich bane is definitely better. I think it's more a case of if you want to get lich bane or morello as a last item most of the time.
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I think an argument could be made for DFG over LB actually (mostly playing Devil's Advocate here).
You get an extra 120 AP from DFG, times whatever multiplier from passives and Rabadon's (I think 5% + 30%) so that's an extra 120+42 = 162 AP. Ziggs has around a total AP ratio of about 3, so that works out to an extra 486 damage or so (not including the DFG active). Let's say the active (without damage amp) does 2200*.15= 330 damage for a total extra damage amount of 816.
With Lich Bane, you get an additional 80 AP and a .5 AP ratio. We break his damage into two parts, the 3.0 AP ratio * 80*1.35 Ap for 324 extra damage, then the .5 lich*(80+ other).
Assuming one LB proc: 816 - 324 = .5 (80+x), 452 = .5(80+x), Ziggs needs 824 AP before Lich for it to be a better buy than DFG
Assuming two procs: 816 - 324 = 2*.5(80+x), 452 = 80 + x, Ziggs needs only 372 AP (still 3 or 4 items) before Lich for it to be a better buy than DFG.
The ratios and some numbers can be played around with a little, but there is a case for buying a DFG I think.
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Has anybody ever used Athenes -> Mejai's -> Rabadons/Zhonya's?
I read about this build on /r/lol somewhere (i think it was in the thread with Scarra's brother) and started using it, it's really fucking good when you snowball and still good when you're going even because you'll pretty much never die if you play it right as Ziggs. Probably not so good for arranged 5's but in solo queue it wrecks shit.
Opinions?
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On July 16 2014 01:03 Immortall wrote:
Has anybody ever used Athenes -> Mejai's -> Rabadons/Zhonya's?
I read about this build on /r/lol somewhere (i think it was in the thread with Scarra's brother) and started using it, it's really fucking good when you snowball and still good when you're going even because you'll pretty much never die if you play it right as Ziggs. Probably not so good for arranged 5's but in solo queue it wrecks shit.
Opinions?
Chinese players like to build Mejai's lol
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am I reading it wrong or is that saying I need to get milage out of LB auto twice during the cd of dfg for it to be more damage (300 ap is trivial @4-6th item)
I mean I understand you are just trying to present the argument but I think one of Zigg's best strengths is consistent damage.
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If a fight consist of you using all your abilities once and you can't get off more than one lich bane proc, you're probably better off getting a defensive item.
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I respect a guy for going over the raw #s to make a point but even looking at them confirms to me that I'll never purchase that item on Ziggs, gotta say I agree with Golem 100% here.
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Basically I was bored at work, so I hopped on and did math
But yeah, basically unless you get off 2 procs (likely you'd need 3) of Lich Bane then DFG does more damage than it (not including the damage amp, which could work out to a pretty decent amount. I also used half the max damage ratio for the mine field.
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On July 15 2014 09:13 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 03:48 GreggSauce wrote:You should never need armor in mid unless you're against an AD mid, then of course you use a page to counter them. 12hp is not going to make you survive your lane any better in nearly any case. And 11 mana regen late game is worth a lot more than 200 hp to ziggs. if they do engage and you can't escape, what is 200 hp to a talon? ziggs has a hard disengage/escape, an aoe slow, and an extremely long range skill. Why do you have two Zhonya's in one of those games...
that was a game with zed/rengar or something like that in it, I just wanted to live through their initial burst before i zhonya'd it worked out. i didn't think i could kill them with DFG before I zhonya'd.
I avoid LB because it puts you in range of being hurt, for the most part I just out cs laning phase, then team fight lobbing bombs 24/7 i'm still experimenting but I've lost the games i've experimented or didn't feel like what I did was that powerful. In my opinion a ziggs that always has mana and max cdr is much scarier than any other way ziggs could build.
Also I doubt either dfg or lb are really "that" good on him. he doesn't really have a scary burst. his damage is more sustained, sure you can use all your skills with DFG and probably kill someone but I'd rather use that item slot for something else, maybe even a mejai's. Also he doesn't really "weave" his spells although they can be low enough cd to proc LB, if you're in range to throw an AA you're in range to be AA'd or gap closed on.
Mejai's is really good on ziggs if you go for assists with your ult and go a fast zhonyas. I used it in a couple of my games. He's already maxed on cdr with my current build though so IDK.
I'm actually experimenting with going athenes with yellow and blue scaling mana per second. It really does lower his burst by quite a lot but it lets you not have to build the morello and late game it's as strong as having a blue buff + morello I believe.
Currently 10-4 with my ziggs, 1 loss couldn't be won, 1 game I did a troll build top lane =X, and the other 2 I didn't play right, so far I don't see anything wrong with the build.
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On July 16 2014 08:15 GreggSauce wrote:
Also I doubt either dfg or lb are really "that" good on him. he doesn't really have a scary burst. his damage is more sustained, sure you can use all your skills with DFG and probably kill someone but I'd rather use that item slot for something else, maybe even a mejai's. Also he doesn't really "weave" his spells although they can be low enough cd to proc LB, if you're in range to throw an AA you're in range to be AA'd or gap closed on.
Ironically champions with multiple gap closers or tons of ways to get in (alkali, Jax, Fizz, Yasuo) is when LB is at it's best (well 2nd best, it's best when your team has a low range adc that can't get good tower damage) you need on-demand 100% accuracy burst of LB+Passive to make them diving you an unfavorable situation, without it one missed bouncing bomb and you just die.
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If you're getting lich bane as your last item, you'll probably have ~700 AP. It also does 75% of your base AD, so that's around another 80 damage. Combined with your passive, your auto will be hitting for over 800 damage. To compare, with 700 AP your Q's will do 710 damage.
Everything that morello provides as a last item can be achieved just by getting a blue buff other than the passive. Lich bane will simply be better the vast majority of the time.
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On July 16 2014 09:21 GolemMadness wrote:
If you're getting lich bane as your last item, you'll probably have ~700 AP. It also does 75% of your base AD, so that's around another 80 damage. Combined with your passive, your auto will be hitting for over 800 damage. To compare, with 700 AP your Q's will do 710 damage.
Everything that morello provides as a last item can be achieved just by getting a blue buff other than the passive. Lich bane will simply be better the vast majority of the time.
blue buff isn't even enough, so no that's invalid, but I've switched to all scaling mana yellow an blues, one scaling cdr quint, and 2 ap/ms, still might adjust don't know yet.
to everyone else, I just don't like lich bane for my play style, nothing is wrong with not building it.
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How isn't blue buff enough? It gives more mana regen, it'll put you at max CDR since you're at 6 items and will have blue pot, and it gives the same AP as lich bane. So the only thing you're getting from morello is the passive.
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On July 17 2014 07:59 GolemMadness wrote:
How isn't blue buff enough? It gives more mana regen, it'll put you at max CDR since you're at 6 items and will have blue pot, and it gives the same AP as lich bane. So the only thing you're getting from morello is the passive.
try it
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B9fQL.jpg)
