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On June 07 2012 16:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:44 bokeevboke wrote:On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote:
I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away. At some point in the game, a farmed, 5-6 item AD carry with lifesteal can 1v1 anything (except maybe another AD carry but then it's dependent on picks and micro) simply because of how offensive items scale much harder than defensive items. Ofc, if the Olaf has an exhaust and you try to fight through the exhaust then yes, you may lose, but kiting through the exhaust duration isn't very hard for most AD carries if you have some form of escape. EDIT: I didn't mean that an AD carry could "shut down" olaf as in prevent him from taking objectives or whatnot. I was more of responding to what Requizen was askin about what to do with Olaf during teamfights. This is simply not true. Bruisers have better base stats, and more powerful kits(as otherwise melee would be useless due to their huge positional disadvantage in teamfights) than ranged carries. From this premise it logically follows that bruisers beat ranged champs(as fights necessarily are in melee range due to mallets unique). And also, offensive ad items do have diminishng returns so ina duel you woulduse more of a mixed set of items just like bruisers do
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offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns
AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set
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On June 15 2012 07:16 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:44 bokeevboke wrote:On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote:
I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away. At some point in the game, a farmed, 5-6 item AD carry with lifesteal can 1v1 anything (except maybe another AD carry but then it's dependent on picks and micro) simply because of how offensive items scale much harder than defensive items. Ofc, if the Olaf has an exhaust and you try to fight through the exhaust then yes, you may lose, but kiting through the exhaust duration isn't very hard for most AD carries if you have some form of escape. EDIT: I didn't mean that an AD carry could "shut down" olaf as in prevent him from taking objectives or whatnot. I was more of responding to what Requizen was askin about what to do with Olaf during teamfights. This is simply not true. Bruisers have better base stats, and more powerful kits(as otherwise melee would be useless due to their huge positional disadvantage in teamfights) than ranged carries. From this premise it logically follows that bruisers beat ranged champs(as fights necessarily are in melee range due to mallets unique). And also, offensive ad items do have diminishng returns so ina duel you woulduse more of a mixed set of items just like bruisers do
Really it comes down to solely how well the AD can kite away from the bruiser and deal damage. It's not a matter of items so much as it is summoners, positioning, QSS, and the kits on each.
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On June 15 2012 08:39 gtrsrs wrote:
offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns
AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set
They multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Which means the relative bonus diminishes after each item of the same type you get. Same with defensive items.
Armor and life multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Armor/res also multiplicates life steal and shields.
with AD you get as,ad,crit,pen,ls,crit dmg that multiplicate each other.
wih defense you get armor,life,ls. so 3 less stats. which may mean that in a duel the weight is more on the offensive stats, but they too have the same fundamental diminishin dynamics
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On June 10 2012 13:17 Requizen wrote:
Man, I can not gank as jungle Olaf to save my life. Even when I can land axes, that slow is not nearly enough to secure a kill. Bleh, having to rely on teammates is suffering.
You don't always have to kill. If you make them waste a flash or two, thats already a success.
I even don't go for kill sometimes, just show them I'm present and near by. They'll be scared and won't play at their full potential.
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Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much.
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11589 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote:
Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much.
Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated.
If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4.
EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you.
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On June 24 2012 15:17 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote:
Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much. Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated. If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4. EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you.
Really..? I thought jax and darius were the only melee champs that could outtrade an olaf's E. I mean olaf can build armor&life and gp5 like pros do, E and fiora has no answer.
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11589 Posts
On June 25 2012 11:53 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 15:17 yamato77 wrote:On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote:
Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much. Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated. If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4. EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you. Really..? I thought jax and darius were the only melee champs that could outtrade an olaf's E. I mean olaf can build armor&life and gp5 like pros do, E and fiora has no answer.
Yes, his E, when maxed first, is an amazing nuke. It makes his burst damage significantly stronger than most other champion's. However, Fiora mainly maxes Riposte first so she gets free AD + a ridiculous aspeed steriod (even at only 1 level invested) meaning that in prolonged engages, she outtrades Olaf. Hence, my setup is designed to disengage from her once she's blown e, the 2 q's, and activated riposte. She goes E->Q->Auto->Q->W, and then you E->Q (do not auto!) and run away. By minimizing her damage from E and ignoring W, you can win trades due to your E being as powerful as it is and creep aggro that Fiora has to draw in order to do damage.
Your base movespeed matches hers, so with movespeed quints and boots (plus 21 defense and/or 9 utility) you are guaranteed to have enough movespeed after the slow to run away without her getting any more autos off. If she tries to trade you with E and W on cd, your E+Q burst and W make you the clear winner. After you get past the early levels and start stacking armor+health, she becomes a lot less scary.
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From experience, Riven and Irelia (at least) ca outtrade Olaf too. Irelia's kinda weak early on but after 2-3 levels in W she can last hit normally and whenever Olaf E her she E him back, activates hiten style and start bashing him until he runs or his E is going to be available again.
Riven, well... is Riven, with bullshit scaling on every auto and AD scaling shield.
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Haha alright thanks for the help guys, I'll keep all this in mind when i go against a fiora next time.
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On June 25 2012 17:01 Alaric wrote:
From experience, Riven and Irelia (at least) ca outtrade Olaf too. Irelia's kinda weak early on but after 2-3 levels in W she can last hit normally and whenever Olaf E her she E him back, activates hiten style and start bashing him until he runs or his E is going to be available again.
Riven, well... is Riven, with bullshit scaling on every auto and AD scaling shield.
Re: Riven
in my experience, olaf is a great counter to Riven. Since riven is basically a pure AD champ, you can build armor to counter her:
-armor quints
-armor mastery
-ninja tabi
-wriggles
meanwhile, she can't counter you with armor since most of your damage, which comes from E, is true damage.
Also, you have sustain, while she doesn't. She has a small shield which is good for auto-attack trades, but one E will take out the shield + hp, then when she has to back off, throw an axe in her back and chase her away. The only way riven can trade well is to max her shield first, which completely gimps her damage. Most rivens max order is W -> E -> Q, so you should already be ahead before she can start trading.
If you can not die and stay even in cs, then when you finish your wriggles + tabi you should be ahead.
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Is Wukong a strong pick against Olaf? I got destroyed by a Wu last game...
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He'll trash you if you E his decoy, or if you let him QE-aa you. In those cases he'll severely outtrade you.
But if you hit your Es, force him to use EQ instead, and use your innate sustain from W, you should win those trades. Plus E has a shorter cooldown.
If he uses decoy and you have a general idea of his direction you can Q to slow him and catch-up once he reappears. If he tries to use decoy everytime he'll run oom much faster than you as your E doesn't cost mana.
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Has anyone tried building soul shroud on olaf? I've never tried it, but it seems like it would be good since it gives +health and +CDR, probably the 2 best stats for him. And of course it's good for teamfights.
There are of course some other great CDR items, but soul shroud seems like it could be useful if you have an AP-ish jungler and AP-ish support (for example something like maokai jungle/soraka support).
Although most people that want CDR have a build that reaches the cap, so the CDR aura might make some items wasted.
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On June 15 2012 19:34 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 08:39 gtrsrs wrote:
offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns
AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set They multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Which means the relative bonus diminishes after each item of the same type you get. Same with defensive items. Armor and life multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Armor/res also multiplicates life steal and shields. with AD you get as,ad,crit,pen,ls,crit dmg that multiplicate each other. wih defense you get armor,life,ls. so 3 less stats. which may mean that in a duel the weight is more on the offensive stats, but they too have the same fundamental diminishin dynamics
Don't forget AS reduction, which is a pretty normal thing to have vs terrifying AD carries, and multiplies incredibly well with your other stuff.
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On July 03 2012 02:22 BlasiuS wrote:
Has anyone tried building soul shroud on olaf? I've never tried it, but it seems like it would be good since it gives +health and +CDR, probably the 2 best stats for him. And of course it's good for teamfights.
There are of course some other great CDR items, but soul shroud seems like it could be useful if you have an AP-ish jungler and AP-ish support (for example something like maokai jungle/soraka support).
Although most people that want CDR have a build that reaches the cap, so the CDR aura might make some items wasted.
biggest problem with soul shroud is that it's expensive and a good chunk of it's cost goes into the +12 mana regen aura, which is relatively worthless. Not only that, but it's pretty easy to get cdr cap (or damn near it) with 21 def masteries and frozen heart/randuins, which are both really darn good on olaf.
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Buy a giants belt and kindlegem and get more for cheaper.
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0K. Am I supposed to be able to do any kind of shit against Yorick as Olaf? I got an early kill on him (he started meki+pots, I had to use my 5 pots for this), but he had enough to buy tear and after that... well he went back with tear, no boots, no pots. And then there was absolutely nothing I could do. No way to make damage stick through his sustain, no way to sustain the damage from ghoul if I tank them, zoned from minions if I sit in the bush... the ganks were just icing on the cake, he had 40cs on me just doing nothing but pressing WE if I tried to get closer than axe range.
I ran AD, armor, a mix of flat and scaling MR, MS; started cloth+5 into boots+NMM+pots, then phage, level both Q and E at the same time.
What am I supposed to do apart from praying no fucking bastard decides to play him, eat every axe, die at level 3 and still win lane through brainless spamming?
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I would've rushed wriggle's, vamp scepter first. Knowing it's Yorick and he's an asshole, I would have disregarded leveling E and focus on Q and W so you could stay in lane and kill minions easier. Whatever you got to do to salvage the lane.
Too many factors to account for but maybe you could have went aggro and pushed the lane into him at level 1 with axes.
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EPT
