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On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote:
somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
Pretty simple math.
3*2.7hp5 = 8.1hp5
W damage per target = 40/sec = 200/5sec
200*.06/3 = 4hp5 per target
Q damage (maximum) = 300/4s * 5s = 375/5s
375*.06 = 22.5hp5
Smite damage = 445
445 * .06 = 26.7 (flat)
To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
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On February 15 2012 14:53 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote:
somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol Pretty simple math. 3*2.7hp5 = 8.1hp5 W damage per target = 40/sec = 200/5sec 200*.06/3 = 4hp5 per target Q damage (maximum) = 300/4s * 5s = 375/5s 375*.06 = 22.5hp5 Smite damage = 445 445 * .06 = 26.7 (flat) To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
guess they did the math wrong
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On February 15 2012 14:53 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote:
somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol Pretty simple math. 3*2.7hp5 = 8.1hp5 W damage per target = 40/sec = 200/5sec 200*.06/3 = 4hp5 per target Q damage (maximum) = 300/4s * 5s = 375/5s 375*.06 = 22.5hp5 Smite damage = 445 445 * .06 = 26.7 (flat) To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
What? You're totally not measuring the time it takes to walk from base to base, not to mention that Q should almost never be hitting for max anyway, you really should be using lvl 1 or 2 Q as the standard instead. Mundo also clears the jungle so fast that he indeed will spend quite a bit of time walking which is when spellvamp quints do nothing.
edit: obv I meant camp to camp >_
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Poor Mundo, nerfed to the ground by Twisted Treeline.
I tried playing him as an agressive support in lane, thinking the harras with Q should be good enough to make the other carry miss a lot of CS, but it gets shutdown easily by any standard carry+support lane.
Also, without CS, you are kind of useless.
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As Shikyo said, spellvamp does nothing when you're not using spells. And you shouldn't bother using cleavers on small camps, since w + autoattacking the big creep clears them fast enough anyways. Also, even with max damage cleavers, the health cost outweighs what spellvamp can return. W + E is amazing for clearing the jungle - you shouldn't need more than 1 point in Q for ganks, since the slow doesn't scale with levels.
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On February 15 2012 16:00 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 14:53 Seuss wrote:On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote:
somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol Pretty simple math. 3*2.7hp5 = 8.1hp5 W damage per target = 40/sec = 200/5sec 200*.06/3 = 4hp5 per target Q damage (maximum) = 300/4s * 5s = 375/5s 375*.06 = 22.5hp5 Smite damage = 445 445 * .06 = 26.7 (flat) To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle. What? You're totally not measuring the time it takes to walk from base to base, not to mention that Q should almost never be hitting for max anyway, you really should be using lvl 1 or 2 Q as the standard instead. Mundo also clears the jungle so fast that he indeed will spend quite a bit of time walking which is when spellvamp quints do nothing. edit: obv I meant camp to camp >_
That's why I said to give a precise answer you'd need to actually measure this. At "face value" it seemed obvious to me that Spell Vamp crushed hp5 while you're fighting (which includes covering lanes or ganking), and that hp5 did well when you weren't (which includes time between camps). Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Didn't like the spell vamp quints or the heavy W points, it's kinda wasting your auto attacks and it costs too much hp. E feels liek the real king for jungle mundo. I lost too much hp the way i was doing it, that's with dshield.
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Mundo, due to his rather silly and offbeat design, has a lot of flexibility in his build paths and leaves a lot to personal playstyle. I run movespeed quints because I like being FAST. Lifesteal, spellvamp and hp5 are good for higher sustainability, while attackspeed, armor, armor pen and magic pen are also reasonable options.
The aggravating thing about quicksilver sash is that between boots, spirit visage, and qss that's half your inventory in <4k gold. I think Mundo would be super viable if either of the following 2 things happened: 1) item that combines SV and QSS, or at least builds out of QSS or 2) Cleanse ACTUALLY REMOVES IGNITE. Either of these things would be fine.
Most important Mundo skill for teamfighting: NOT GOING TOO FAR IN. Remember that if you last 12 seconds you absorb TONS more damage than if you only last 6, thanks to your massive regen. In fact, if you're still alive at the end of the fight, you'll be topped up and good to go (with ult back up!) in about 30 seconds.
Further, you are actually really good at peeling for your carry, since you can truck tanks and assassins alike while peeling with constant cleavers and absorbing skillshots with your huge MUNDO. You can dive the enemy carry if you need to, thanks to the speedboost from ult and your crazy 1v1 potential, though you're far more easily peeled by permaslows than, say, Akali. Finally, you're a good asset in the poke game because of cleaver's low cost and low cooldown, as well as how good you are at absorbing damage. Honestly, you can just walk into all the skillshots and heal it off in short order. No one's going to initiate because 3.5k hp 150 MR Mundo got hit by morgana's dark binding - he'll live, he'll regen it quickly, and it won't even lock him down long.
Anyways, to summarize that passage MUNDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU.
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Rugfeeder's Jungle Mundo
+ Show Spoiler [Skill order] +
EQWQQ R>E/W>Q
Ult whenever possible, of course.
E is for a more physical focus, which is my preferred style. W will clear small camps faster and allow you to chase better, but E gives you much greater 1v1 potential and faster buff camps, as well as scaling better.
I get three ranks in Q because it lets you clear buffs so much faster, which is where most of the gold value is concentrated in the current jungle. It also lets you actually threaten dragon (you ~can~ solo it at 6, though it's very slow, very risky, and slightly luck dependent). I stop taking points in Q after that because I either want W to farm/solopush lanes faster or E to crush everything in my path. Sometimes I max Q first, if it's a poke heavy game.
+ Show Spoiler [Masteries:] + 21/9/0
My favorite. Smash through the jungle incredibly quickly, staying at around half health because of lifesteal. Obviously, you want all the physical damage masteries, but perhaps less obviously you should grab the cdr and magic pen masteries as well.
9/21/0
Better for spellvamp-tanky-Wmax build.
x/x/21
Whatevs, it's Mundo. Build him how you please.
+ Show Spoiler [Runes:] + Pretty much any combination of physical damage and tankiness works.
Some recommended setups are:
Attackspeed reds, Armor yellows, Flat CDR blues, Movespeed quints.
My default. Common runes, perfectly logical.
Crit chance reds, Attackspeed yellows and blues, Lifesteal quints.
More physically focused Mundo. Start boots. Definitely get a Zeal at some point. Max E as fast as you can. Kill everything.
Armor or attackspeed reds, armor or hp/level yellows, scaling mr blues, spellvamp or something tanky on quints.
This goes best with the W first spellvamp Mundo. If you don't run spellvamp quints, you're gonna get real low hp (which actually translates into faster jungle, on Mundo).
+ Show Spoiler [Item build:] + Start boots if you can get away with it and vamp scepter if you can't.
In some order, buy Zeke's Herald, Spirit Visage, and Randuins.
Build Zeke's first if you anticipate early teamfights or if your team is heavily autoattack focused. Otherwise, get the parts first and upgrade later.
Build Randuin's first if the enemy team has strong physical damage early (I mean like Garen Graves Talon level strong). Just getting HoG + Chainmail and finishing it later is ok too.
Build Zeal first if 1) you be rollin' 2) you want to style on scrubs 3) you have a heavy physical spec
Otherwise build Spirit Visage first.
If you didn't start with boots, get them on your first b.
WHEN MUNDO BUY QSS?!?
Or rather, when should Mundo NOT buy it?
If the enemy team has no ignites or heal reduction, don't buy it.
If the enemy team is bad and can't coordinatedly ignite you in teamfights, you can get away without it.
Once/if cleanse is fixed to remove the healing reduction from ignite, just run cleanse unless they have a bunch of suppression or something.
Start wherever. I like enemy wraiths -> wolves blue against fast junglers, enemy golems-wraiths-red against a particularly slow jungler, or my golems-wraiths-red for early ganks. Run around haphazardly, mainly running to lanes to try for a gank, controlling buffs, and farming small camps or lanes when convenient.
Your priorities are, in order:
1) annoy the enemy laners into ragequitting
2) get every blue and red on both sides of the map
3) get farmed off of lanes
4) kill small creeps
GANKING AS MUNDO
When can I gank?
Whenever Cleaver is off cooldown.
Who can I gank?
Any lane past half pushed, and some that aren't even (mostly top).
Are my ganks really that strong?
Well, you aren't going to get kills most of the time. But ganking serves several purposes: the enemy laner feels a little more nervous, hopefully; the enemy laner takes some damage and maybe even has to b; the enemy laner buys wards; the enemy laner rages at his jungle for never ganking; your gankbuddy gets into a better position in lane.
How do I gank?
Run in behind them, cleaver when you know you can hit (or just throw it at random and leave if you miss hue). Mash E and autoattack them.
DON'T SPEND TOO LONG ON A GANK.
You don't need a kill from EVERY gank. Just cleaver, try and hit him a few times, and be on your merry way. Too many people think "if I wait JUST A BIT LONGER I'll TOTALLY get a kill".
DON'T FOCUS ON THE SMALL CAMPS.
Buffs are worth twice as much as wraiths and wolves, plus they give you a handy-dandy super power. Small camps are for killing if you have nothing else to do.
DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS
That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
+ Show Spoiler [Breakdown of hp runes:] +
Flat hp gives you 48.15 on yellows and 78 on quints
Hp/level gives you 9.27/level on yellows and 8.1/level on quints
Hp% gives you 4.5% on yellows and 4.5% on quints
In other words, hp/level breaks even with flat hp at level 5-6 on yellows and 9-10 on quints.
hp% gives you 4.5% of your base hp and hp/level which is 433*.045 and 89*.045 = 19.5 and 3.7/level.
So hp% yellows catch up with flat hp by level 6 and kindlegem/hog, and hp% quints surpass flat hp at about twice that much (level 11, kindlegem+hog)
hp% yellows start with a 10 hp lead on hp/level, which catches up at level 3. hp% breaks even if you buy 120 hp/level each level after 3. The values will be equal at level 18 if you have 3.7k hp.
hp% quints compare slightly more favorably, staying ahead until level 5, requiring 100 hp per level to break even, and at level 18 being comparable to 3.2k hp.
SUMMARY: hp/level yellows are pretty much the best of the three, unless you really plan to get tanky fast. Hp% quints are better if you wanna rush Warmogs; if you're going Zekes-Visage-Randuins you're probably better off with hp/level. Most likely you're gonna want something else in quints though.
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On February 16 2012 06:59 Tooplark wrote:
DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS
That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
Wut. You totally do not have better things to do than get blues for mid. Why are you sitting there while they AA it? Get it to oneshot then call mid over. Many many mids just cannot kill blue in a reasonable time period without taking huge damage.
Giving mid blue is your job. You know who has better things to do? Top and support, they need to be in lane all the time so they dont lose tower and massive amounts of continuously flowing experience and gold or let your precious AD carry get ganked. Jungle is the fastest and most efficient at killing big camps on the team, and the one who loses out on the least by doing it.
For gods sake just watch some good players and copy what they do in the jungle. When TOO starts letting Ahri solo bluebuff for 4 minutes because he has better things to do then you can maybe come back and start talking about this again.
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I figured that would be controversial.
I'm overstating things, of course. If you're passing through, sure, tank it for him. But don't come running across the map just cos your mid is a lazy bum who can't hurt creeps.
Top tower isn't going to go down if top leaves for 15 seconds. If it is, go gank top THEN give your mid blue.
Junglers are already starved for gold and experience, and frequently are on the opposite side of the map or acting on strict timers. Especially if you're counterjungling heavily, you might not be able to get blue to your mid in any reasonable length of time. Your AD hopefully isn't going to die because support left for a bit.
You're giving up 74 gold every time you give blue to your mid, as well as a decent chunk of experience. That's about 5 creeps. If your top lane can't live without five creeps, why can you?
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While I realize I'm nowhere near as good as you are on MadMundo, there's some stuff I really don't like about the way you play him. 3 points in Q seem like such a waste - you gimp your sustainability in jungle considerably, your clear speed too and why do you feel it takes mundo any time to clear buffs? Even at level 2, where I usually steal their red, I feel like I'm one of the fastest clearers around. Then again, I start WEQ most of the time. I don't really see a reason not to - I do wolves, ask for a strong leash at blue, then go steal their red with smite. So far, it's worked 100% of the time, but I only played like 10 games or so. As for Zeke's, I tried it and it's considerably stronger than Wit's. I've been toying with the idea to get Wit's over Zeal and PD additionally to Zeke, because I feel the AS is really really good, the damage proc comes in handy and I just neeeeeeeeeeed the MR badly. I also run 9/12/9 masteries.
I'm going to give your build a try, though! Just in theory, it feels like it does not fit my playstyle. That might be because I play a bad Mundo, or I approach him differently. Thanks for your guide though, I really really appreciate it.
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On February 16 2012 07:13 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 06:59 Tooplark wrote:
DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS
That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
Wut. You totally do not have better things to do than get blues for mid. Why are you sitting there while they AA it? Get it to oneshot then call mid over. Many many mids just cannot kill blue in a reasonable time period without taking huge damage. Giving mid blue is your job. You know who has better things to do? Top and support, they need to be in lane all the time so they dont lose tower and massive amounts of continuously flowing experience and gold or let your precious AD carry get ganked. Jungle is the fastest and most efficient at killing big camps on the team, and the one who loses out on the least by doing it. For gods sake just watch some good players and copy what they do in the jungle. When TOO starts letting Ahri solo bluebuff for 4 minutes because he has better things to do then you can maybe come back and start talking about this again.
Agree. Good junglers, save fiddlesticks, donate blue.
Good fiddlesticks pick fiddlesticks when the mid is not mana based.
If you don't have good timers on your buffs you can get counterjungled too. I recall games with some high elo friends of friends, where someone told me to get better buff control. I couldn't tell why until I started counterjungling and timing my enemy buffs.
From what I've seen, spell vamp quints are shit on even mundo.
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On February 16 2012 04:25 Tooplark wrote:
or 2) Cleanse ACTUALLY REMOVES IGNITE. Either of these things would be fine.
Ever since they re-did the masteries/summoner spells they buffed Cleanse to remove ignite and exhaust (maybe it did exhaust before... i forget).
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cleanse
edit: it looks like it just may remove the damage and not the healing debuff (sorry)
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E > Q is definitively better after further testing. Now I go EQWEERQQ then W>E>Q
Wit's End vs Zeal vs just more tank is a good question. Wit's is a nice compromise. More health isn't a bad idea (and more health probably means warmogs), while force of nature is a reasonable pick.
I don't have anything against donating blue, but I'm not going to run halfway across the map to give it to our mid as soon as it respawns. If they want it NOW they can kill it themselves. Lazy bums.
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Going to bump this after watching Saint jungle Mundo for the past few days.
He goes W first then Q and max E last. Play style is somewhat like Shyvana(counter jungle) where he would get really tanky and just farm to unstoppable status and oracles to clear wards. Goes boots -> Hog -> Warmogs -> Wits end -> situational, item build varies of course.
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Tanky DPS =P
User was warned for this post
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I guess I'm gonna have to eat crow. How did SV jungle Mundo at IEM? Runes/Masteries/Skill order?
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On March 07 2012 04:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I guess I'm gonna have to eat crow. How did SV jungle Mundo at IEM? Runes/Masteries/Skill order?
Maybe I missed something, but how would we know? He maxed W before E against fnatic, went Cloth 5 -> HoG -> Tabi -> situational. Aegis, Warmog's, stuff like that. He had the team to build like that, in solo Q, I'd still suggest the builds already discussed in this thread.
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On March 07 2012 04:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
I guess I'm gonna have to eat crow. How did SV jungle Mundo at IEM? Runes/Masteries/Skill order?
9-21-0, armorpen/armor/mrlvl/armor. Cloth 5 W>Q>E
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EPT
