EPT[Champion] Zilean - Page 3
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
A big reason why many champs aren't played isn't because their kit is bad or their numbers are low. It's more because of power creep and homogenous design. There's no reason to play champion X if champion Y does everything they do better. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2013 09:03 Juicyfruit wrote: It's obvious where Zilean's weakness is but that's only after level 9 where his only damage spells stops scaling. We're talking about a meta where support pantheon is a thing because of how important winning the game early is. iirc, the game where iG played support Pantheon against WE only worked because they were running a Panth+Lee kill lane. | ||
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danana
United States321 Posts
1. What item progression would you go now? I'm typically fairly torn between wanting a big mana item, getting 40% cdr asap, and also getting AP and a bit of survivability. I usually go RoA -> morellos or grail -> deathcap, with 9/0/21 masteries so I can reach cap w/ blue buff, blue pot, or a codex/kindlegem/glacial shroud. I vastly prefer the mana of RoA over Athenes (nothing's worse than tower diving, double bombing, and then not having mana to ult because you wasted it zoom zooming from lane), but delaying cdr that long doesn't feel great. I haven't tried this yet but I've also considered going tear -> morellos which seems like a nice tradeoff. Don't get the survivability that catalyst or chalice gives (esp since I often play vs assassins) but should give mana and cdr quite quickly. 2. When is Zilean a good pick? My typical criteria are teams with good lategame damage, and either an AD carry like ez that can get away after reviving or (more likely) melee damage threats that benefit from Zilean's utility. I feel like Zilean does particularly well with farm-dependent junglers, since he can give them a lot of lane farm (since he hass less scaling and spends a lot of time roaming). I also think he's really strong against most asassins in lane. Shuts them down hard before they get their big burst at lvl 6, gets to lvl 6 before them, and won't die to the all-in as long as his ult is up (particularly vs Zed, Fizz, Talon. Probably not as ideal against khazix, diana, akali). I know Zilean isn't a very popular pick right now but, given the right team, I still intend to play him a lot because I find him really fun and I'm relatively good at him compared to other mids (lack of skillshots certainly helps) | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On June 03 2013 07:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Does the 1 dmg tick from time bomb trigger Liandry's? no | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On June 03 2013 06:41 danana wrote: I've been playing a lot of Zilean lately, with fairly good success (I've won every lane, and although that doesn't translate into winning the game I don't think Zilean's late game is quite as bad as it's made out to be with how strong he is in the midgame). But anyway I have a couple questions: 1. What item progression would you go now? I'm typically fairly torn between wanting a big mana item, getting 40% cdr asap, and also getting AP and a bit of survivability. I usually go RoA -> morellos or grail -> deathcap, with 9/0/21 masteries so I can reach cap w/ blue buff, blue pot, or a codex/kindlegem/glacial shroud. I vastly prefer the mana of RoA over Athenes (nothing's worse than tower diving, double bombing, and then not having mana to ult because you wasted it zoom zooming from lane), but delaying cdr that long doesn't feel great. I haven't tried this yet but I've also considered going tear -> morellos which seems like a nice tradeoff. Don't get the survivability that catalyst or chalice gives (esp since I often play vs assassins) but should give mana and cdr quite quickly. 2. When is Zilean a good pick? My typical criteria are teams with good lategame damage, and either an AD carry like ez that can get away after reviving or (more likely) melee damage threats that benefit from Zilean's utility. I feel like Zilean does particularly well with farm-dependent junglers, since he can give them a lot of lane farm (since he hass less scaling and spends a lot of time roaming). I also think he's really strong against most asassins in lane. Shuts them down hard before they get their big burst at lvl 6, gets to lvl 6 before them, and won't die to the all-in as long as his ult is up (particularly vs Zed, Fizz, Talon. Probably not as ideal against khazix, diana, akali). I know Zilean isn't a very popular pick right now but, given the right team, I still intend to play him a lot because I find him really fun and I'm relatively good at him compared to other mids (lack of skillshots certainly helps) I doubt there are any good zil players on tl to say which item builds work well for them. The way I see it zilean needs to rush a mana item. If you have no mana regen runes RoA is probably as good as chalice or better. I haven't mathed out which gives more mana in lane, for sustained trades in lane. I rarely come into lane with any mana missing. The way I see it, if I came into lane with 200 mana missing that'd be the equivalent to throwing away a sapphire crystal in gold. I don't think Zilean can get away with just archangels or morellos as a first item so its between Athenes and RoA with a preference to RoA against people who do physical damage. Athenes prefers flat mana for helping with short fights that cost a lot of mana and for the on assist passive. While also benefitting greatly from mana regen with its bonus mp5 passive. If you can get away with athenes you will also have more CDR which scales really well with zilean considering his e. I would definitely play more zilean if I didn't like malz already. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Basically, you need an item build that allows you to spam Rewind between/during teamfights in order to always have your ultimate up. RoA doesn't contribute to that at all. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Also Cata is a huge boost to mana pool and hopefully your team gives you blue buff so RoA is a fine choice; the passive is just laning butter | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On June 03 2013 16:33 Tooplark wrote: heh, i go Tear, then cap cdr, then get deathcap Also Cata is a huge boost to mana pool and hopefully your team gives you blue buff so RoA is a fine choice; the passive is just laning butter Emphasis mine. The word "so" is important because it makes is clear that RoA is a fine choice if and only if you have blue buff. Whenever you do not have blue buff, which is at least 50% of the time in any match you and your team aren't absolutely crushing, RoA is not a fine choice. I'm obviously coming down very hard on Catalyst/RoA, but I do so with reason. I've seen far too many Zileans start with Catalyst/RoA and end up being extremely weak in the mid-game because they can't afford to spam their abilities whenever blue isn't available. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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danana
United States321 Posts
On June 03 2013 13:05 Seuss wrote: Never rush Catalyst on Zilean. You simply will not have enough mana and/or regen to sustain his spell usage. Chalice -> Grail -> Whatever (DC/Morello/Zhonya's) is the way to go. Basically, you need an item build that allows you to spam Rewind between/during teamfights in order to always have your ultimate up. RoA doesn't contribute to that at all. This doesn't really match up with what my experience has been (I tend to oom more with a Grail than with an RoA), and I'm not entirely sure why (I definitely don't mean to imply that you're wrong; I'm pretty sure you're much better than me!). It might have to do with what was mentioned about backing -- I probably do tend to back a bit more frequently than normal, and I think I also tend to use my mana in big bursts: for example, ganking a lane (I spam E/W a lot on my way, then do a double bomb, usually cast E once or twice, and often ult), and extended chases. Btw, thanks for all the comments! i'll definitely play around more with some of these item progressions (particularly grail -- I feel like my complaints with grail are relatively minor, I could get around them by just not feeling the need to E myself constantly, and the smoother buildup justifies any downsides) | ||
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Blyf
Denmark408 Posts
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danana
United States321 Posts
On June 04 2013 20:11 Blyf wrote: Hey danana, what is your division if one might ask? Your playstyle with Zilean seems fun, so I was just curious about the level of competition you are at. I'm in silver, although most of my Zilean games have been in normals. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
I've played him mid, support and even top (viable in special cases where their top is a very hard counter pick to yours, but your top is still capable of being in mid - for instance we've had a Darius go mid vs Fizz and I took top vs Teemo). While Zilean is execellent alongside a hypercarry, he is also great if your team posses two diving champions - they don't need a gapcloser since you can Time Warp both once you recieve the CDR threshold, by also placing a bomb on each of them this allows grants an easily "transfered" signifcant amount of AoE damage should you be non-support (base damage is fairly high, so even as support this is a noticeable amount of damage too). The itemization I've found best on Zilean is the obvious aim for CDR cap (this can be reached multiple ways; locket/masteries + 20% CDR item, Morello+Athenes, 20% CDR item + blue and so on) it is paramount to reach as this is a tremendous power spike, don't be afraid to build a tanky CDR item - enemies will oftentime try to chase you down out of fear of a secondary ult in teamfights (it is very possible). He is extremely mana hungry and burns it fast as thus you want a large pool, a high mana regeneration is only really needed in prolonged teamfights so you do not need to rush an Athene - I prefer my first true mana item to be a Tear since Zilean stacks it so rediculously fast. He does not have a weak midgame thanks to his utility Haste/Slow buff/debuff, a stupid strong ult and really high damage with few items - they are slightly hard to get off until you can duke in and out thanks to CDR and Time Warp. It is obvious important to spam Rewind whenever your ult is on cooldown, and is something I oftentimes see Zilean's with little experience fail to realize - it is better to have lower mana but an ult ready. His laning is nothing short of wonderful as he can waveclear very fast and his roaming is so wonderful due to his speed across the map, he is incredible safe (especially past level 6, good luck diving him) as he can slow a gank and speed away. But something I want to stress is the power of his ability to make strong diving champions without gapclosers incredible strong due to speed + bomb on them. Also, remember you can place bombs on any friendly unit; this is one of the most common feats of his kit I see people forget, as well as using Chrono Shift right -- you do not always want to use it on a carry. Another common mistake is not using his Time Warp as a slow. - His ult is incredible strong on allies with a high amount of armor and/or magic resist as it grants a tremendous amount of EHP heal; you can also occasional use it as a "heal" by letting someone get an execution at a tower for instance. I've found it better to reach a fast CDR cap, high mana pool and somewhat tanky than rushing for high AP. Consider his kit as Swain/Anivias where you want a high pool for keeping up an ult in Zilean's case it is (ab)using his Rewind, he uses mana in bursts pretty much. A Tear is all you need for mana until prolonged teamfights start happening where you will spam your abilities, alot -- as support Tear is also one of my priority items. While he might only have "three" skills, they make up for it through by the sheer amount of multifunctionality they posses. Lovely to see some more Zilean love, I consider him my strongest champion but this might be due to the lack of experience playing against him from most opponents. Nothing is more satisfying than having an opponent die in FOW from a bomb. ;-) EDIT: Finally, if you are laning against a melee champion you want to (in most cases) put bombs on your own minions - this puts your opponent in a lose-lose situation where they will either give up on a CS or take free damage since bombs go off on deaths too. EDIT2: I consider a solo lane Zilean as a hyper carry in and off himself due to his incredible scaling with items (which basically makes all teamfights a 6v5 and in prolonged fights 7v5), which is also why I don't feel like you need for instance a Vayne on your team. | ||
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danana
United States321 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
While I very much prefer to play him really defensive early (as he scales so incredible well it usually pays off) with E second, I will try to go the more aggressive route of W second next time I get the chance to play him. I always start Charm, 1 Ward and pots. Might be why we have different views on his early mana issues? So nice to finally meet another Zilean afficionado, never had anyone else to share experience and ideas with. ♥ EDIT: An item I've forgotten to mention is Lich Bane, it felt somewhat like a troll item the few cases I've tried it but Zilean can trigger it's passive everytime it's off cool down. | ||
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Blyf
Denmark408 Posts
Jek, can you elaborate a bit on the power curve of Zilean and share your experience of when he is weak? I mean, by the looks of your post, he is a safe lany bully with strong roaming and he scales like a hypercarry. That sounds like a recipe for OP/permaban, so there must be some reason that he isn't seen much. | ||
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