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On May 15 2014 22:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I am not the world's greatest Jax and yet I can consistently beat Trundle. I don't know why people think it's a counter:
* Trundle ult should never be that useful against Jax 1v1, because no Jax is going to press R until he sees Trundle press R;
* Pillar is not a great form of disengage 1v1, since Jax can jump over it;
* Counterstrike ignores 100% of Trundle's damage, and so long as Jax turns it on when he's next to Trundle, Trundle has no real escape;
* Trundle Q is annoying to deal with but is far less crippling than say, Lee Sin's or Malphite's attack speed slows
I do agree that Trundle is capable of surprise-killing a Jax even if the Jax is a little ahead, which is not something most champs can do. But I think Jax has the advantage so long as he is careful to respect Trundle's power spikes (i.e., not fighting when both have a BotRK but Jax has an incomplete Triforce and Trundle has Warden's Mail).
You time the pillar so it pops up in between you and Jax, blocking his jump. Somewhat difficult to do but most Jax players combo stun with leap so it leaves both his offensive options down.
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Can it pop up anywhere or does it have to be flush against you?
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Belgium9950 Posts
On May 16 2014 11:34 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 22:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I am not the world's greatest Jax and yet I can consistently beat Trundle. I don't know why people think it's a counter:
* Trundle ult should never be that useful against Jax 1v1, because no Jax is going to press R until he sees Trundle press R;
* Pillar is not a great form of disengage 1v1, since Jax can jump over it;
* Counterstrike ignores 100% of Trundle's damage, and so long as Jax turns it on when he's next to Trundle, Trundle has no real escape;
* Trundle Q is annoying to deal with but is far less crippling than say, Lee Sin's or Malphite's attack speed slows
I do agree that Trundle is capable of surprise-killing a Jax even if the Jax is a little ahead, which is not something most champs can do. But I think Jax has the advantage so long as he is careful to respect Trundle's power spikes (i.e., not fighting when both have a BotRK but Jax has an incomplete Triforce and Trundle has Warden's Mail). You time the pillar so it pops up in between you and Jax, blocking his jump. Somewhat difficult to do but most Jax players combo stun with leap so it leaves both his offensive options down.
A Jax is never gonna start a trade with e-q vs trundle unless he's super far ahead or desperate for an engage (in case of a friendly gank for instance). Normal trade start with jax just autoattacking from point blank range and then activating e. If you then pillar to avoid getting stunned, he'll jump on you to force the stun and get some more autos in.
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United States37500 Posts
Because we have such sensible people in GD, I'll move this over here for you and answer with what I can.
On September 22 2015 18:38 Celial wrote:Yo guys, I'm trying to figure out itembuild paths for jungle Jax. Champion.gg is not very helpful since apparently everybody just buys what the shop suggests and I have no idea how accurate that is. Plus, thinking for myself is fun! In the past, the thing to do on Jax always seemed like 2 DPS items and 3 defense items (and Mercs). I would reaaaaaaaaaaally love some help with this... Chilling Smite seems a given - I'm gold, so there is a lot lot lot of catching and skirmishes going on, Jax is already strong in that situations and I want to be able to stick to someone.
- Maybe Challenging Smite is better when I rise in ranks and teamfights become more prevalent.
Devourer or Cinderhulk - Devourer would be one of the DPS items, Cinderhulk one of the defensive items.
- I want to get Devourer when nobody gets super fucked before my level 6 and solo dragon.
- I want to get Cinderhulk when shit goes south and/or I am performing badly before level 6.
Triforce first real item - Everybody rushes BortK, but Triforce is just a bit more expensive and has a really good build path, plus I already have Chilling Smite.
- Triforce bursts better.
- Triforce gives me a bit defensive via my ult.
- I have no sustain then, but I won't take much damage from camps anyway because LOLWTF damage.
If Cinderhulk, what second DPS item? - BotrK: Seems core on every single Jax, but I would get it pretty late and I don't get to do much in terms of teamfight AA, plus I can already smite to slow.
- Hextech Gunblade: Oldschool cool Jax item. Really great in duels/skirmishes due to the passive. Gives me decent MR via my ultimate. NO ATTACKSPEED THOUGH! Does the spellvamp proc on my ultimates passive damage? Nice sustain nevertheless.
What first armor item? - How does having Cinderhulk change the value of HP? Does it become even better or can I round out other areas (like with FH) because I already got extra HP?
- Randuins: Armor and HP. Passive feels meh, I SHOULDN'T be taking that much damage from the ADC, ideally they would die before it becomes a problem for me. Active is okay I guess, for teamfight CC.
- Dead Mans Plate: Armor and HP. I run around a lot, and it gives damage and slows. No idea what to make of this, but it seems okay?
- Frozen Heart: Armor and Mana and CDR. Yes please. I need all of that. Downside: No HP!!!
- Thornmail: No idea, but I guess the combat stats the other items give are better...
- Sunfire Cape (if Devourer): I don't really need it for splitpushing or farming. No idea the value of the damage in fights though.
What MR item? - Banshees Veil vs Spirit Visage: It seems to me like Banshees it the overall better choice. The shield is awesome, it has HP, it has MR, whats not to love. Spirit Visage on the other hand has CDR, and a heal increase in case I go Cinderhulk and get one of the sustaining DPS items.
- Locket of the Iron Solari: Everyone loves the Aegis, it is cheap, Locket has great utility. It has a little CDR, a little HP and a little MR.
What third defensive item? - Guardian Angel: Revive passive. Should be decent when I am carrying.
- Zz'rot Portal: Lots of resistances and can defend/push a lane on its own.
- Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Randuins, Dead Mans Plate: No idea bruh, same question as first armor item...
- Warmogs: More HP seems good? But I have so low armor...
So yeah I have no real idea what is good on Jax at what point of the game and how to actually decide. Please help =(
What Smite you take is up to you. I prefer Ranger's but Skirmisher's and Stalker's are acceptable too. Devourer is preferred over Cinderhulk because it allows you to proc your "passive" in two hits, instead of three. This makes you very dependent on Dragon and Scuttle control so you get Sated in a reasonable amount of time. Merc or Tabi, depending on the enemy team comp, usually Merc for CC reduction purposes cause you're melee.
I like Sterak's into Titanic for invading/farming purposes but I don't feel like it's a far superior build over the usual Trinity rush. The latter is more tried and true.
Armor options you have either Dead Man's Plate or Randuin's Omen, then Frozen Heart or Thornmail.
I view DMP more as an offensive option and Omen more defensive. DMP provides additional MS and CC, which is good for a melee carry like Jax, even from a Jungle position. While Omen also has a slow, I think the Cold Steel passive is really the selling point.
FH vs Thornmail is trickier but again you're really looking at which passive you really need more of in team fights. FH greatly increases your CDR (which translates to more Counterstrikes, which is the biggest boon) and has a nice AS reduction aura. Thornmail provides the means for enemy AD carries to more or less kill themselves while they try to attack you. Obviously great if they have a strong auto-attacking line up (Tryndamere Top, Rek'Sai Jungle, fed ADC, etc).
I usually default to DMP and Thornmail here.
MR options are a bit more straight forward. Locket > Visage > Banshee's. Locket is self-explanatory, this is League of Legends we're talking about. I feel like Banshee's is a noob trap unless you're an ADC. It makes no sense to get Banshee's on Jax because he's frontline and there's really not much guaranteeing that you'll block the CC that you want to avoid and far more likely you'll pop your Banshee's to some random poke damage spell instead. Hexdrinker is probably really efficient on paper but I still prefer more defensive MR items. Not much beats Locket.
Devourer, Mercs, Trinity, DMP, Thornmail, Locket.
Edit: as krndandaman mentioned in his GD response, BotRK is also a solid buy for AS/Life Steal reasons. tbh, I'd choose it or Trinity as your offensive option. You already have that + Sated as your offensive items, I view Jungle Jax more frontline in team fights and less splitpushing duelist because of your lack of Teleport. But if you really want to channel your inner hypercarry, you could go Sated, Trinity/BotRK, Merc, and the best two defensive options against the enemy team comp.
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If you're playing jax you probably shouldn't value buying resists too much. Your ult gives enough that until you get 3k+ hp it's not even close to cost effective.
I can show you the math but it's less effort if you just believe me on this one.
if you're playing front line as neo suggests, then rushing double damage items doesn't make sense at all. Steraks is a tempting buy but it's not actually that cost effective at low hp.
after sated you are usually squishy as fuck and you want to rush as much hp as possible. Face of the mountain is very good but it's weak until you complete it. Giants belts are good obviously. Locket is quite good since you have E for physical damage anyway.
In terms of damage botrk and trinity are your only real options. As jax you lack sticking power more than anything else and botrk provides sticking power and dps and trinity provides more burst damage, scales with steraks well and more sticking power too.
If you're going trinity you probably want to save it until lategame and combine it with steraks and 40% cdr. masteries+cdr/lvl blues means you only need 20% so the boots or locket+face is enough to max cdr, you'll have Q and E on such short cooldowns that you become quite sticky and hard for adcs to deal with.
Your biggest weakness is early on since you gank and clear slowly and you're squishy until you get gold, so if you get to like 2.5k hp and sated devourer you're looking good, and you want to focus on getting steraks, and trinity after that most likely.
I'm not the exactly best jax around but i doubt anyone else around here is
in terms of lategame armour randuins is probably your only real option, but DMP is a bit better for stats so against non crit ads like assassins or something. You might want to sell face of mountain for example lategame so its a good replacement.
I'd only consider thornmail or FH against heavy-ass physical teams, or edge cases like thornmail vs nasus so he can't lifesteal for a shitton on every q.
I've actually not tried cinderhulk jax, maybe it's not terrible if you go trinity straight after and stack hp
i've often got cdr boots over mercs because when you're jax and have a ton of jumps and auto dodging cc isn't as huge a threat as on other champs
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United States37500 Posts
So what's your recommended build order for Devourer Jax then? Assuming AD/AP threat on enemy team is about equal.
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ad/ap threat doesn't really matter, since you get so much resists that hp is defacto best for most of the game anyway
tbh I don't have any solid answer, would need more games, but probably devourer-->giants belt/kindle-->face of mountain-->trinity-->steraks or some such
maybe conventional botrk stuff is better but i'm not really convinced. Jax has good enough defensive steroids to match tanks (much better than tanks but you need some damage to be a threat and also to farm) if you get some decent hp and I think people don't abuse it enough.
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you could be right
doesn't matter if you get blown up after 4 autos though, but it could be an argument over getting trinity instead of botrk cause devourer has no scaling with trinity
its better to work with averages though, so 12% or 240 extra damage an auto, down to 120 if he drops to 1k hp, don't forget its current hp
becomes weak fast if you're trying to burst down squishes which is why trinity feels a lot better against them
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past like 25 minutes it's pretty hard to look for duels without the enemy just being on tilt or something
there's no reason you're going to die if you burst a squishy. You'll take more damage attacking a tank and letting yourself get free DPS'd. Forcing them back allows you to damage someone else without getting rekt.
also it's not like you don't need 4 autos or something to do a lot of damage as jax so it's not like you're wasting anything. the ability to do lots of damage is just as important as it forces people to run away
warrior is in no universe going to make you do more damage to any target you're just being stubborn. If people could consistently get lots of autos on devourer in teamfights they'd be super strong but its just a fact of being a melee that you won't get too many off. In fact even adcs often don't get too many off if they don't have a tank to shoot for a long time, if its all people who can one shot them they have to take a few shots and back off until they can clean up.
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nice one you're just basically saying im wrong your way is better but it's not good because the champ sucks
warrior is terrible on jax and I doubt it's better dps on him even when you first get it, he has only autos and E doing physical damage. 10 dmg and 10 armour pen vs 50% AS you do the math
also you're acting like you've never played a bruiser before. The whole point is that you're squishier than a tank so you need to do damage to their squishy targets to be able to do other things. (OR zone them out if they are playing too safe) If you sucessfully say get their adc to 50% hp you can get more autos off on someone else since said adc has to worry about losing the next 50% hp if you jump on him.
the advantage you have over an assassin is that you are tanky and you do a lot of sustained damage so that if the teamfight does break up or their apc dies early you can dominate the rest of the fight, and you can enable your team by drawing cc and damage while an assassin has to wait in the back
sort of halfway between assassin and tank in that respect.
obviously you are strong in skirmishes but so are most bruisers.
only getting 4 autos off in a teamfight with devouruer sounds bad but so does playing an adc and only getting 4 autos off. A champ can rarely do their spreadsheet DPS, but the fact that it's possible is important because it changes the way people play. If you were a nunu or something then the ADC can do a lot more than if you are a jax even if you are just both not autoing
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getting extra burst damage doesn't suddenly make you not do sustained damage. This isn't diablo 3 we don't need to specialize like that. Your notion that if you want to be able to do some burst you should just play an assassin is nonsense.
I'm not saying to play jax for the burst damage, I'm saying that the burst damage is quite important because you lack the sticking power to chase down people in any situation that isn't a flat 1v1, and your ability to do the sustained damage you want to do is based on their damage threats being under control and being able to do 1k damage with a like q--auto-w-estun-auto means that you can hit someone else without worrying about a full hp adc shooting you in the face
that's another reason I like cdr, if you jump on someone and use everything+botrk you get CC'd or they use an escape skill and suddenly you can't do anything while with cdr your Q And E are both up soon allowing you to do some damage and then jump on someone else and then your next jump is ready to go for them if they try to rejoin the fight.
Don't know why you look at everything in such a tunnelvisioned way. The point is you can compensate for your weaknesses with your other advantages. You might do a lot less upfront damage than Vi but once VI's cds are down she's weak and immoblie while you have fantastic tank steroids and mobility and better sustained damage so if you both fail to kill your original target jax is absolutely fine with that because he can switch targets and be in good shape
you seem to just ignore all your weaknesses stack everything on your strength and then if you suck in teamfights you just go well i should play another champ this one sucks in teamfights
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On September 26 2015 21:30 krndandaman wrote:
I'm aware. But your notion that we should build devourer for the sake of 4 autos in a teamfight (your claim, not mine) is equally nonsense.
You say you lack sticking power but I don't think that's the case when you go botrk.
So there's a point we have to come to a conclusion on or else this conversation goes no where.
I like cdr on jax too?
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm compensating for my lack of burst and being a aa reliant melee by getting extra stickiness and being an incredible duelist. Basically you choose the go the route of building more burst to help his weakness and I'm going the route of accentuating his strengths.
It's like the scenario a while back where few people who were playing Lee in the cinderhulk meta with sejuani and shit were building cinderhulk. I'm pretty sure their thought process was similar to you in compensating for their weakness (tankiness) but it didn't work out nearly as well. The people who just went balls deep and realized 'if I'm picking Lee, I'm picking him to snowball the early game' and went warrior had far better results even in a shit meta for Lee. Like sure it looked horrible if it didn't work out, but that's the risk you take when picking a champion weak in the meta. You don't half ass it.
I'm going for the route of focusing on your strengths as a champion simply BECAUSE I acknowledge the weaknesses of the champion. I'd rather focus more on the strengths of my champion instead of getting a shittier mediocre version of a different champion better suited to the role.
On September 26 2015 21:30 krndandaman wrote:
I'm aware. But your notion that we should build devourer for the sake of 4 autos in a teamfight (your claim, not mine) is equally nonsense.
The point is that you're a big threat and the enemies devote a lot of resources to stopping you, if you build dumb items that won't be the case. There's lots of cases you get autos off but most of them involve the enemy team being dead.
On September 26 2015 21:30 krndandaman wrote:
You say you lack sticking power but I don't think that's the case when you go botrk.
So there's a point we have to come to a conclusion on or else this conversation goes no where
you're looking at things in a vacuum again, if the enemy support CC's you after you jump in your botrk proc runs out quickly. If you could botrk every 6 seconds I'd agree that jax doesn't have any sticking problems.
On September 26 2015 21:30 krndandaman wrote:
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm compensating for my lack of burst and being a aa reliant melee by getting extra stickiness and being an incredible duelist. Basically you choose the go the route of building more burst to help his weakness and I'm going the route of accentuating his strengths.
Jax is already an incredible duelist. Unless there's someone on the enemy team who you can't 1v1 you don't need to worry about that. Teamfights are normally a bigger issue unless you are planning to split push without teleport or something. Roaming enemy jungle and the like only works if you have an advantage.
On September 26 2015 21:30 krndandaman wrote:
It's like the scenario a while back where few people who were playing Lee in the cinderhulk meta with sejuani and shit were building cinderhulk. I'm pretty sure their thought process was similar to you in compensating for their weakness (tankiness) but it didn't work out nearly as well. The people who just went balls deep and realized 'if I'm picking Lee, I'm picking him to snowball the early game' and went warrior had far better results even in a shit meta for Lee. Like sure it looked horrible if it didn't work out, but that's the risk you take when picking a champion weak in the meta. You don't half ass it.
I'm going for the route of focusing on your strengths as a champion simply BECAUSE I acknowledge the weaknesses of the champion. I'd rather focus more on the strengths of my champion instead of getting a shittier mediocre version of a different champion better suited to the role.
As far as I know most successful lee players at least in progames went mostly full tank, but I don't know enough to really argue about this. At any rate just one example doesn't prove anything. There's plenty of champions who build to hole up weaknesses (fizz buying sustained damage, olaf buying movement speed etc) and they typically tend to be bruiser champs because damage champs tend to go full damage and tank champs tend to go full tank while champs with a mix of both have to react because they tend to have a strong mix of damage and toughness but they usually have the issue of either surviving or being able to stick on targets.
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I'm not saying botrk is bad, its just if you have to build a second damage item I'm not sure botrk is the best, and in general I find people are getting the second damage item too early period.
Getting CC'd off a target is okay if you can jump back in, botrk favours being all in the first time a little more.
I'd disagree with you about fizz, the reason you build sustained damage is because he has so much dumb mobility once you have some damage it's really hard to peel him, and once he gets tank items its hard to burst him and its overall a pain in the ass.
you'd think olafs true damage makes him a lot more useful against a tank than lee or fizz, but the point is lee or fizz can jump in and burst someone and jump out, olaf has to go all in so losing some hp hitting a tank greatly hinders your ability to go in ham.
Trinity helps you stick to targets as well, its a lot worse but more consistent, and gives you more damage if you fail to stick on your target. It just seems like it's unlikely you get to chase down people consistently in teamfights and if you can't trinity is better, if you can or you want to kill tanks botrk is better obviously.
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EPT
