|
I prefer 0/9/21 on Ryze, myself.
On May 02 2011 02:07 MythicalMage wrote:
Seems that tank Ryze is becoming pretty good, and the standard build is pretty close to: cata>boots>tear>merc treads>banshee's>glacial shroud and then build either frozen heart, Rylia's, or void staff depending on composition. And you'd also go armor/magic resist runes, as well as magic pen. Seems pretty sick.
Glacial Shroud / Frozen Heart are pretty damn core on Ryze, I wouldn't say it's just another option- it's easily the best tailored to get CDR from for Ryze, and the synergy between his passive and CDR is huge.
The items you ideally want on him include:
*Boots (probably Merc's)
*Frozen Heart
*Banshee's
*Void Staff
*Tear of the Goddess (can eventually be turned into Archangel's)
If the game goes on long enough, then you can consider filling up your final slot with Rylai's (no mana and 80 AP seems a bit suboptimal for Ryze, but the slow on your Q can be huge and more HP is always nice), RoA or something else.
|
United States47024 Posts
IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase.
|
On May 04 2011 12:19 TheYango wrote:
IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase.
You get 10% CDR from Ryze's Q, 20% from Frozen Heart, and 6% from Utility masteries. If you don't have blue buff, you're only missing 4%; if you really want to get to 40%, just get 4 CDR/level glyphs and you're done (that's like 1 quint's worth of max mana you're losing out on- OTOH if you go 9/0/21, it takes 3 HP regen quints to match Ryze's early game regen with SoS).
SoS > 3% CDR, and Ryze's late game is good enough that I'd rather make sure I'll have a good early game by going 0/9/21 and having a lot of HP regen and extra armor & mres without giving up much max mana for it. Late game, Archaic Knowledge is very good, but 40 HP/5 worth of regen is also kinda nice for when you're pushing or to recover from poking.
|
Does +40% Mpen mean that you slash off 40% of their Mres AFTER your flat Mpen has been substracted, or does it mean flat Mpenx1.4?
|
On May 04 2011 12:32 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:19 TheYango wrote:
IMO 3% CDR and 15% MPen are more useful to Ryze than 6 armor, 6 MR, and some amount of hp5. That 3% CDR goes a long way when it's taking you from 37% CDR -> 40% CDR, Ryze's laning just doesn't really demand the hp5 from SoS, and hp5 is just not really all that useful outside the laning phase. You get 10% CDR from Ryze's Q, 20% from Frozen Heart, and 6% from Utility masteries. If you don't have blue buff, you're only missing 4%; if you really want to get to 40%, just get 4 CDR/level glyphs and you're done (that's like 1 quint's worth of max mana you're losing out on- OTOH if you go 9/0/21, it takes 3 HP regen quints to match Ryze's early game regen with SoS). SoS > 3% CDR, and Ryze's late game is good enough that I'd rather make sure I'll have a good early game by going 0/9/21 and having a lot of HP regen and extra armor & mres without giving up much max mana for it. Late game, Archaic Knowledge is very good, but 40 HP/5 worth of regen is also kinda nice for when you're pushing or to recover from poking.
Imo Ryze either craps on the other guy early game, or you are forced to play passive. I.E. Caitlyn is a lost lane anyways, gotta survive. SoS won't really help you a lot. Same with Karthus. However, vs a Teemo for example, the SoS isn't necessary to win. It seems incredible, but a very good Ryze player (Angush) told me to get Wamogs, so you get late game regen anyways.
|
On May 04 2011 22:48 BouBou.865 wrote:
Does +40% Mpen mean that you slash off 40% of their Mres AFTER your flat Mpen has been substracted, or does it mean flat Mpenx1.4?
At first, any flat Magic Resist Reduction is applied. Then % Reduction. Then flat Penetration, then % Penetration.
Penetration has no effect on Magic Resist below 0, and can only push it down to 0. Flat Reduction is the only way to go below 0.
% Penetration effects stack multiplicatively, so if you have 40% and 15%, then the result is MagicResist * (1 - 40%) * (1 - 15%).
I have no idea what happens if you reduce the enemy Magic Resist below 0 and then apply a % Reduction effect.
|
On May 04 2011 23:12 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:48 BouBou.865 wrote:
Does +40% Mpen mean that you slash off 40% of their Mres AFTER your flat Mpen has been substracted, or does it mean flat Mpenx1.4? At first, any flat Magic Resist Reduction is applied. Then % Reduction. Then flat Penetration, then % Penetration. Penetration has no effect on Magic Resist below 0, and can only push it down to 0. Flat Reduction is the only way to go below 0. % Penetration effects stack multiplicatively, so if you have 40% and 15%, then the result is MagicResist * (1 - 40%) * (1 - 15%). I have no idea what happens if you reduce the enemy Magic Resist below 0 and then apply a % Reduction effect.
Thanks for your explanation. In that case I would run 9/0/21, but I suppose it's kiiinda a tossup. After cata/tear/shroud, you get this hp regen gap, where the hp/5 would really help. At the same time though, more Mpen means you'll fill your carry role better with your tanky set up.
I guess that if you reduce enemy magic resist under 0 and then apply a % reduction effect, no Mres is substracted. Had I been programmer, that's what I would do anyways.
Will stop spamming the thread now. : /
|
I'm running 9/7/14 with success. I'm ignoring buff mastery for full meditation/greed/2 in movespeed.
Discuss.
I feel that BOTH SoS and the %MPen are just too good to give up and 21 utility isn't that huge on ryze imo.
|
On May 05 2011 02:50 r.Evo wrote:
I feel that BOTH SoS and the %MPen are just too good to give up and 21 utility isn't that huge on ryze imo.
How are they not huge? He has no slow, his W has barely any range and is single target. If he gets ganked without summoners, the scientific term for Ryze's condition is powerborked. In order to let him catch up to stray enemies late game he needs flash/ghost too.
Let me put it this way: On what kind of character is 21 utility NOT bigger than on Ryze? It's more than just PotM, you also get flash mastery, (CDR?) and move speed.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2011 22:50 BouBou.865 wrote:
Imo Ryze either craps on the other guy early game, or you are forced to play passive. I.E. Caitlyn is a lost lane anyways, gotta survive. SoS won't really help you a lot. Same with Karthus. However, vs a Teemo for example, the SoS isn't necessary to win. It seems incredible, but a very good Ryze player (Angush) told me to get Wamogs, so you get late game regen anyways.
This is my reasoning. SoS just won't make or break any of your matchups. You'll either win them regardless or lose them regardless.
On top of that, every instance of Ryze I've seen played on stream at high Elo has been running 9/0/21.
|
Yeah I feel like if I have to mid against Caitlyn or someone like that, I either need ganks from a jungler/roamer, somebody needs to win their lane quickly, or my team comp/skill just isn't good enough. I go with 9/0/21 and in a case like this I just try to make sure I farm and dont get harassed too much. That way I can hope to be effective by the time teamfights start. If a gank doesn't kill but forces the champion out of the lane, I'll try to gank elsewhere. This has worked out before because I can help my teammates win their lane and therefore stop the clock from ticking down to the point where I'll lose mine.
|
On May 05 2011 05:52 BouBou.865 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:50 r.Evo wrote:
I feel that BOTH SoS and the %MPen are just too good to give up and 21 utility isn't that huge on ryze imo. How are they not huge? He has no slow, his W has barely any range and is single target. If he gets ganked without summoners, the scientific term for Ryze's condition is powerborked. In order to let him catch up to stray enemies late game he needs flash/ghost too. Let me put it this way: On what kind of character is 21 utility NOT bigger than on Ryze? It's more than just PotM, you also get flash mastery, (CDR?) and move speed.
You lose 6% CDR and 2 points in movespeed if you want the flash bonus.
Frozen Heart: 20% CDR
Soul Shroud from support: 10% CDR
Blue Pot: 10% CDR
Personally I'm doing some things different with Ryze than most i think here and there and I'm doing pretty well around ~1500 ELO on EU with it.
Things I actually consider:
CDR Boots. I feel that a rush to glacial+cdr boots is a huge thing sometimes. You get to 30% CDR in NO time at all pretty much.
Obviously considering the numbers above I usually aim for Mercboots lategame.
Another thing I feel that's rediciously OP on ryze is actually Warmogs. Ryze lategame has INSANE resists just like no health at all. Warmogs capitalizes on that big time. My main problem in games where I want to get Warmogs is the timing, it would need some more testing to see if it's really viable but it's just such a great item on Ryze.
My itembuilds look like this pretty much:
Crystal+2
---> Tear if I'm ahead in lane, Cata if I'm behind.
-> Finish the other -> CDR Boots
---> Negatron/Chainarmor depending on who I'm laning against.
----> Banshees/Glacial --> Finish other one.
THIS is imo the ideal timing to throw in that warmogs before finishing Frozen Heart, I sometimes get it after Frozen Heart but around this it's a great mid-lategame survival item. After that I swap out my boots for mercs and start bluepotting + slowly finishing Voidstaff+AA
Overall it looks like:
Merc Boots / Banshees / Frozen Heart / Warmogs / Voidstaff / AA
|
Russian Federation4235 Posts
I don't know where you got the insane resists for Ryze, he has 30 innate, no innate resist growth and 50 from banshees so if he doesn't build merc treads, you will end up with 80 MR which is nice but not better than any other champ with BVeil and worse than any melee/tank. His armor can go pretty crazy, but not like you tower dive very often with Ryze so it's kinda not as strong as on tanky melee champions.
As a caster with good cast ranges and a ranged autoattack, you benefit from MR more than you benefit from armor. Armor is a great stat if you're into their DPS line (actually tanking their ranged DPS) and if you agrro the tower during dives, also with the side effect of tanking minions but that rarely comes into play. If you're standing in the back of the fights, your main threats are tanks (typically deal magic damage, not true with Jarman/Irelia) and assassins who are most often deal magic damage too. 80 MR is not enough to have great survivability in that case, so imo Ryze cannot go straight Warmogs with just a BVeil. Stacking BVeils increases your EHP nearly as well while also providing damage.
CDR boots are a huge fallacy on Ryze imo. People who build them just haven't made the calculations of how much of a damage increase you get from sorc shoes vs people who don't get early MR items with 21 MR reduced to 1 MR (so they are strictly better than 15% CDR in early game before teamfights start and you switch to tanks as primary targets) and how much of a lifesaver 35% CC reduction is (so Mercs are strictly better in later game). It would be worth it in late game if Ryze didn't already have a way to get 36-39% CDR from his core build. People who get CDR boots typically either have some other desirable effects on their skills than damage (most supports, Vlad for the healing), or do physical damage with their skills and don't fear CC (some Ezreal builds and Renekton come to mind) so they don't need the 20 MPen from their boots.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote:
You lose 6% CDR and 2 points in movespeed if you want the flash bonus.
Not with 21 utility. Again, SoS is not as big as I think people are making it out to be here. Hp5 #1 overcosted stat outside of laning, and Ryze's laning isn't such that SoS makes or breaks lots of matchups.
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote:
Frozen Heart: 20% CDR
Soul Shroud from support: 10% CDR
Blue Pot: 10% CDR
You forgot Q passive.
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote:
Another thing I feel that's rediciously OP on ryze is actually Warmogs. Ryze lategame has INSANE resists just like no health at all. Warmogs capitalizes on that big time. My main problem in games where I want to get Warmogs is the timing, it would need some more testing to see if it's really viable but it's just such a great item on Ryze.
Rylai's is the superior HP source on Ryze IMO. You don't use the AP that well, but Ryze gets a lot out of slow, because his Q uses the 35% slow (Riot derps out--uses the 15% slow on Vlad's Q and Cass' E because "having the 35% slow on such a short-CD spell would be OP", but Ryze's Q which has comparable/shorter CD uses the 35% slow).
|
On May 05 2011 21:43 BluzMan wrote:
I don't know where you got the insane resists for Ryze, he has 30 innate, no innate resist growth and 50 from banshees so if he doesn't build merc treads, you will end up with 80 MR which is nice but not better than any other champ with BVeil and worse than any melee/tank. His armor can go pretty crazy, but not like you tower dive very often with Ryze so it's kinda not as strong as on tanky melee champions.
With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
|
Rylai's is the superior HP source on Ryze IMO. You don't use the AP that well, but Ryze gets a lot out of slow, because his Q uses the 35% slow (Riot derps out--uses the 15% slow on Vlad's Q and Cass' E because "having the 35% slow on such a short-CD spell would be OP", but Ryze's Q which has comparable/shorter CD uses the 35% slow).
Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote:
With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever.
Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good.
Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR.
On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote:
Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges.
If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure.
I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item, and that's assuming that you weren't doing well enough to get away with RoA early-mid. You don't get to 6th item, and then plan around the game going long enough for you to get 100 MORE minion kills--especially since if you've got 6 items, someone else will probably want minion kills for gold, and not just Warmog stacks.
|
On May 05 2011 22:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 22:09 BouBou.865 wrote:
With 30 (innate), 50 (Bveil) and 24 (merc) I feel that Ryze has enough MR to warrant Warmogs, but eh. Also mercs basically 'counter' sorcs, so I do not see sorcs over mercs being a good choice almost ever. Sorcs are fine on Ryze--you put off your boots2 long enough anyway that you have a good chance to see whether there are enough people in the right resistance range for Sorcs to be good. Also note that Ryze gets extra mileage out of MPen because it stacks with the 12 MR reduction from his E. This means he can take people even with flat MR glyphs from 43 MR to 1 MR, and someone with Mercs from 54 MR to 12 MR. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 22:13 BouBou.865 wrote:
Yango, the hp/5 of warmgs is actually quite welcome. Also, a filled up warmogs will give you 1350 HP, 2.7(?) times as much as Rylai's. Seeing as Ryze has decent catch up ability anyways with ghost/flash, has little/no use for AP and is tanky enough to not hve to put an emphasis on kiting, I feel like warmogs is the superior option. His also farms decently well, so warmogs should be on full charges. If you're getting Warmog's midgame, sure. I don't see Warmog/Rylais as something you'd get any earlier than 6th item.
I don't usually get warmog/rylais as a third item or anything crazy either. Anyways, only if they have very little MR will I go warmog before void, or if they have like 4AP then I will only build shroud, and finish frozen heart very late, instead getting warmogs sooner. I still feel that mercs warmogs is a stronger combo then sorc/rylais.
|
On May 05 2011 21:19 r.Evo wrote:
Soul Shroud from support: 10% CDR
idk about EU but here no one gets SS anymore
|
Just stopping by to tell you fknoobs that it's
1. % reduction
2. flat reduction
3. flat penetration
4. % penetration
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
