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I recently picked up Udyr and I have been leveling tiger and phoenix at the same time, turtle 3rd. It does giant amounts of damage and you can build pure tank items, while still nuking squishies to hell. You just need someone else to initiate.
Also I started going boots of swiftness which really helps catching up, even if you get cced.
My typical build is early swifties>spiritstone>aegis/other tank stuff and if you get fed you can get some damage items
In a battle just load your tiger, switch to bear, tiger again and then phoenix (and later turtle inbetween).
Dunno if you'd consider that bad or something , but I've gone something ridiculous like 8/1/X three games in a row now.
Your 1v1 duelling is crazy aswell, especially once you get some points into turtle lategame.
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On April 02 2013 08:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 07:40 greggy wrote:
I think I realised what my problem with udyr is. You see, you say to wait until everyone goes balls deep but I've always found that because udyr doesn't really have the ability to do a hard engage (like jarman or malphite or amumu f.e.) you need someone else on your team to do it for you, or get engaged on (which usually spells disaster in pubs). If you do the engaging you just get dropped really fast because you're just running at 5 people while they pew pew you down. And then you can't do any damage because you're dead or close to it.
so tl;dr is: I'm just bad at udyr. Your bear cooldown is less than enemy team's peel. If you want to initiate, pop bear form. Watch entire enemy team blow every single cd trying to run away. If they split off, chase down 1 person stragler, if they run away together, run back to your team, rinse repeat til you catch someone.
Thats a stupid argument. They need 1 good slow or stun to stop you in your tracks and can unload any skillshots or autoattacks on you then and you'll probably lose too much hp to safely engage just from that..
Your best shot is to spam w and try to stun tanks and win small damage trades that way, you definitely need a team to do anything getting further than that. You can flash stun only if your team is 1 s or less away of a follow up.
Going 9 in offensive doesn't make much sense. The gold value is so meh. 4% cdr, a small amount of ap and 8% magic pen, which is like, drops off 4 to 6 magic resist off them? Cant do any damage without that? wtf
Leveing tiger pheonix is probably OKAY in certain situations but most of the time just putting 1 point in q and leaving it is probably always better. Doing 200 more damage a proc is going to end up going to like 100-150 damage after resists while turtle you can spam anytime you are in range of taking damage (all the time) and you're going to end up tanking 400+ damage extra after resists per shied.
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About synergy, it's true he doesnt have alot of obvious partners, but there are still some.
Udyr tresh is so broken if you want to just dump on their botlane. Also remember that you need someone in your team to iniciate fights.. Runing at them bery fast is not that great of an engage tool.
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Udyr has tons of obvious partners, any tanky guy with initiation and an assassin mid or 2 poke champs since its hard to engage on udyr because you have to leave your ad carry alone and he can also stun and tank well so he can kind of split teams up
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Teut, I know this is asking of a huge time investment, but have you ever considered compiling clips from your games demonstrating tactics you use regularly playing udyr? Would be super useful but I'm grateful enough for your posts here of course 
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When I get back to my pc after finals I probably can do that sort of thing using lolreplay I might try something like that.
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anyone watching st vicious playing udyr? scrim against zekents team.
Afais he runs 9-21-0 with MPen and Ms Quints/As reds. Which actually makes a lot of sense since R procs more often ^^
Sometimes it's so obvious what to do, lol
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What makes sense? MS/AS quints have been standard since forever and the 8% mpen is questionable over longer buff duration because it trades a bigger ganking timing window with red for better damage later on.
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New PBE changes to Udyr will make his Q deal physical damage with increased base damage and scales with bonus AD. It also looks like it passively increases his AD by 10% while the stance is active and grants 30-70% AS for 5 seconds.
The increased AS bonus also benefits his R procs more than it does currently.
I don't know how I feel about the mixed damage though.
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On April 04 2013 00:39 Ghost-z wrote:
New PBE changes to Udyr will make his Q deal physical damage with increased base damage and scales with bonus AD. It also looks like it passively increases his AD by 10% while the stance is active and grants 30-70% AS for 5 seconds.
The increased AS bonus also benefits his R procs more than it does currently.
I don't know how I feel about the mixed damage though.
I guess my best question is, why? Zac does magic damage so it's not some giant mission to make all physical spells into physical damage.
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It's only "mixed" if you max and use both Tiger and Phoenix. He tends to deal more physical than magic damage the later the game goes on, too (more MR being built, and you have more occasions to auto in Turtle/Bear than to turn Phoenix on every single time).
However, for a top lane Udyr who relies primarily on the Tiger proc to deal damage, it's a big nerf as it stops to be mixed damage, you can just stack armour and give him the finger (unless he decides to switch to Phoenix, losing a level early, and pushing the lane every trade).
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On April 04 2013 01:31 Alaric wrote:
It's only "mixed" if you max and use both Tiger and Phoenix. He tends to deal more physical than magic damage the later the game goes on, too (more MR being built, and you have more occasions to auto in Turtle/Bear than to turn Phoenix on every single time).
However, for a top lane Udyr who relies primarily on the Tiger proc to deal damage, it's a big nerf as it stops to be mixed damage, you can just stack armour and give him the finger (unless he decides to switch to Phoenix, losing a level early, and pushing the lane every trade).
I see, so it's meant to punish Udyrs who max tiger by giving top laners who stack armor more survivability against him.
But then they could have made the change much simpler. By changing other variables like the attack speed, the bonus AD, and other things they convolute a solution to their made up problem that tiger udyr is impossible to build against.
On April 03 2013 01:09 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 08:52 wei2coolman wrote:On April 02 2013 07:40 greggy wrote:
I think I realised what my problem with udyr is. You see, you say to wait until everyone goes balls deep but I've always found that because udyr doesn't really have the ability to do a hard engage (like jarman or malphite or amumu f.e.) you need someone else on your team to do it for you, or get engaged on (which usually spells disaster in pubs). If you do the engaging you just get dropped really fast because you're just running at 5 people while they pew pew you down. And then you can't do any damage because you're dead or close to it.
so tl;dr is: I'm just bad at udyr. Your bear cooldown is less than enemy team's peel. If you want to initiate, pop bear form. Watch entire enemy team blow every single cd trying to run away. If they split off, chase down 1 person stragler, if they run away together, run back to your team, rinse repeat til you catch someone. Thats a stupid argument. They need 1 good slow or stun to stop you in your tracks and can unload any skillshots or autoattacks on you then and you'll probably lose too much hp to safely engage just from that.. Your best shot is to spam w and try to stun tanks and win small damage trades that way, you definitely need a team to do anything getting further than that. You can flash stun only if your team is 1 s or less away of a follow up. Going 9 in offensive doesn't make much sense. The gold value is so meh. 4% cdr, a small amount of ap and 8% magic pen, which is like, drops off 4 to 6 magic resist off them? Cant do any damage without that? wtf Leveing tiger pheonix is probably OKAY in certain situations but most of the time just putting 1 point in q and leaving it is probably always better. Doing 200 more damage a proc is going to end up going to like 100-150 damage after resists while turtle you can spam anytime you are in range of taking damage (all the time) and you're going to end up tanking 400+ damage extra after resists per shied.
I agree. When I play Udyr in even games I tend to just wait on the sidelines and pick 1v1s. I don't like AoE and I can beat AD carries and AP carries and most tanks and supports in a 1v1 provided they can't kite much.
If I'm full tank and I have to tank for the team, I'll do it though, but it sucks when the team can't or won't initiate.
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On April 04 2013 01:37 obesechicken13 wrote:
If I'm full tank and I have to tank for the team, I'll do it though, but it sucks when the team can't or won't initiate.
What the fuck does that even mean? Theres no raidboss to take aggro off.
Going off at the sidelines is a play that depends largely on teamcomp. Often you can run away if they split for you but most of the time its preferable to have the team right behind you because it's easier to coordinate if they have cc. It's still an interesting idea but it only works if you intended to dive their back line no matter what anyway it has problems when they dive your team 5v4 and you running in the side isn't good for the fight.
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Saint streaming jungle Udyr, going Q>E>W>R and not even picking up Turtle until much later, rushing BotRK. Ganking and dueling monster.
I've never thought Tiger Jungle was bad by any means, but it's honestly much faster than I expected and remembered.
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It is if you get fed take every buff and build full damage
not exactly realistic
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On April 04 2013 03:27 Slayer91 wrote:
It is if you get fed take every buff and build full damage
not exactly realistic
That's exactly what he's doing. Poaching all blues and BotRK -> TF -> LW. No one can 1v1 him and his ganks basically won every lane.
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can do that with vi or xin with better results
i said that because i tuned in after the post and connected the dots
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On April 04 2013 02:23 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 01:37 obesechicken13 wrote:
If I'm full tank and I have to tank for the team, I'll do it though, but it sucks when the team can't or won't initiate. What the fuck does that even mean? Theres no raidboss to take aggro off.
Sorry.
Someone needs to tank damage on the team. If I'm the only champion that is likely to build tanky on my team, then I'll only build tanky items and try to run in and soak up damage so my team can deal damage.
I agree that your team getting engaged on in a 5v4 sucks while you run in from the sidelines, but in my experience, when that happens in a 5v5, it's not any better and you were likely on the losing side anyways. You just give your enemies one more target to hit with their AoE.
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Eh, it was Saint that was adamant about how tiger jungle sucks loads compared to pheonix. I remember a while back when Oddone was trying to make tiger jungle work and one day Saint msged him in the middle of his game saying something like "lol I told you tiger sucks dude, stop trying". Nothing fundamental has changed since then and if anything pheonix is even more better than tiger in jungler after the last path.
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On April 04 2013 05:26 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 02:23 Slayer91 wrote:On April 04 2013 01:37 obesechicken13 wrote:
If I'm full tank and I have to tank for the team, I'll do it though, but it sucks when the team can't or won't initiate. What the fuck does that even mean? Theres no raidboss to take aggro off. Sorry. Someone needs to tank damage on the team. If I'm the only champion that is likely to build tanky on my team, then I'll only build tanky items and try to run in and soak up damage so my team can deal damage.
The game doesn't work like that. If you're amumu or malphite or something and you have a lot of cc to set up a whole team and the team decides to use shit on you even though you've used all your burst sure. On udyr a 1 second stun does not constitute losing half your hp for no reason. AD carries basically just hit anything thats in range so "tanking" them is just useless and any ap with spammable spells which some be nearly all of them (the ones with long cds tend to be the ones who can cc you) can also use shit on you and it doesnt create a good situation for your team.
If you're way ahead and you just want to force a fight sure the bear stun is good enough and even if you can't do anything else your team can win basically 4v5 once they are in range but that's not the situation you should be preparing for. In an even game the later the game gets the easier it is for them to just kill you and lose very little and you need to really start thinking about what to build and why.
The reason to build tanky for a champ without much is to apply pressure to squishy champs. If you can't be easily killed the enemy carries can't overextend or you'll just kill them. If you are a champ with lots of cc the reason is that you use your CC to start trades where say you land a maokai w or something on a target less tanky than you hopefully the range disadvantage is made up by the cc duration and you can just run away if you need too, and if you land it on a real squishy guy your team can blow flashes and chain cc and kill.
Udyr is halfway in both camps so you need to decide what you want to do. If you want to dive then you need both damage and tank stats because its all about your 1v1 potential, if you just want to start fights you can shield and run in to stun and shield and run out again to harass them and try to force them to make the first move by letting your team chip away at their tanks, it's not really initiating but it does the job. (if your team has nless poke then you have to do this unless someone else can initiate on your team).
The difference here is that the goal should be to take as little damage as possible. While building tanky is the right way to go and having 4 squishies building tanky and stunning tanks is generally what you want if you have less poke and no other engage (otherwise sometimes building not that tanky is good because you have 4 squisihes nobody will focus you anyway time to dive their ad!).
I hear a lot about soaking damage as if its a good thing but 95% of the time it's just you being medicore and your team winning for you. Sometimes maybe they play badly and try too hard to kill you after assassins for example are running in but usually you get this kind of mentality
-You win fight "I tanked them all!"
-You lose fight "OMG GUYS I TANKED SO MUCH MY TEAM IS SO USELESS SIGH ELO HELL REQUEUE"
On April 04 2013 05:47 koreasilver wrote:
Eh, it was Saint that was adamant about how tiger jungle sucks loads compared to pheonix. I remember a while back when Oddone was trying to make tiger jungle work and one day Saint msged him in the middle of his game saying something like "lol I told you tiger sucks dude, stop trying". Nothing fundamental has changed since then and if anything pheonix is even more better than tiger in jungler after the last path.
Saint went pheonix the very next game, and dominated even harder. Keep in mind saints solo queue elo (if you take lolking points as a guideline, which it seems to be decent from my experience with a lot of duo queueing around my elo with friends) he's playing in the same elo as me except he's one of the best jungles in the world and wins most games early on and can do whatever he wants with his champ because everyone is so bad.
Since I'm often really shitty at jungling I need to win most of my games in midgame and lategame teamfights and in saints games where he goes yolo botrk trinity or frozen fist wits end and swiftness alacrity (when they dont have any slows and he should be going ninja tabi alacrity with spirit of the ancient golem or just mercs alacrity) his team basically already has won the game and there isn't any teamfights just random derping around the map with ganks and counter ganks and he can run around killing people 1 by 1 with doublebuffs.
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EPT
