I imagine it will just be a question of how many disables they're packing and then you'll make a decision on Q vs. E with W always being the 2nd priority.

Brees

Marshall Islands3404 Posts

November 24 2010 23:01 GMT

#103

i think those changes will kill pantheon personally. who cares if hes better lategame if he cant farm well early game. His strength comes from free farming his lane early since his opponent unless its like gragas or malphite mid or somethin wont be able to do shit

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 25 2010 01:03 GMT

#104

I hadn't seen how bad they were thinking of nerfing Q. wtf, they fucking butchered it at level 1 T_T, gg panth, no fucking re.

oberon

United States1320 Posts

November 25 2010 01:07 GMT

#105

Doesn't this just make him more bursty and less harassy in lane?

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 25 2010 01:28 GMT

#106

On November 25 2010 10:07 oberon wrote:
Doesn't this just make him more bursty and less harassy in lane?

IMO it just makes his laning worse. E being "better" only becomes relevant at level 4, when you actually get around to taking a level of it. By then, the amount of damage you've lost from Q doing less far outweighs whatever minor gains to your burst HSS adds.

barbsq

United States5348 Posts

November 25 2010 02:30 GMT

#107

On November 25 2010 10:28 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

it used to be that panths hss was so fucking awesome that you leveled it over q, q was a lvl 1 zoning tool so that you could start your lane advantage into a lvl 4-5 kill with hss. The current trend of getting e only at lvl 4 only started because ppl figured out almost instantly how badly they nerfed hss, you simply cannot do dmg with it. If it returned to a similar state to its former glory, you would be getting it lvls 2 and 3 and @ 4 or 5 could spear->stun->hss->spear combo them to death vs his current state where he autoattacks instead of the hss

oberon

United States1320 Posts

November 25 2010 04:23 GMT

#108

Re-reading this, Panth loses either 8 or 18 damage on spear at level 1 (website says it starts at +20, patch notes at +30), but gains a flat 10% phys scaling on HSS (over its current scaling). Since that 10% is double for champs, that's a 20% phys scaling. That's 10 damage at level 1 (per hit). If you hit twice, and one of them crits (and HSS always crits if someone is low), that's a 30 damage buff. Assuming the 18 damage nerf on spear, and 2 spears in a combo, the combo is nerfed 6 damage.

So it seems like a worst case scenario is you're losing maybe 20 damage off your level 1 combo, and getting another 10% (20% vs. champs) AD scaling on HSS.

I can't imagine this isn't a buff.

-Kato-

Spain1146 Posts

November 25 2010 08:45 GMT

#109

What? HSS crits? Then will IE be viable on Panth?

Spear doesnt crit right?

Truez

Australia147 Posts

November 29 2010 03:23 GMT

#110

Nope spear doesn't crit. IE would be overkill on panth imo. Anyway, imoimo I'll still stick with the q>w, with HSS at 4 skilling order and Spear->stun->auto att->spear combo.

But then again, Panth might become the new garen, forever waiting in the brush to HSS.

DiracMonopole

United States1555 Posts

November 29 2010 04:59 GMT

#111

What HSS needs is a slow effect attached to it. Or an armor pen boost. Basically, if its just damage, its either strictly better or strictly worse than auto attacking.

Blitzkrieg0

United States13132 Posts

November 29 2010 06:23 GMT

#112

Standing still just isn't good in this game. He needs immunity not armor pen or a slow.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 29 2010 16:32 GMT

#113

here are my comments on this thread recently

1. hss doesn't crit, never has and probably never will
2. old pantheon skill order was qweeer -> r > e > q >= w, there was no point in e before w because it was strictly a combo.
3. the biggest problem with his focus being HSS is that he'll have Kat syndrome (omg, they have disables, I guess I'm useless). if those numbers are right though, he'll still just be able to max spear anyway if it seems HSS would be unreliable.
4. what killed the level 3-5 q->w->e combo was the mana cost of Q at level 1. it used to be 30, now it's 45. you can sustain 45 mana chucks alright, but you can't stockpile the 150ish mana needed for w->e anymore while harassing.
5. nerfing level 1 spear shot, be it by 10% or 20%, is still quite brutal to pantheon's early game. level 1 is very important for Panth in a lot of matchups and if you nerf level 1 spear a lot, I'm quite sure that Panth vs. casters will change quite a bit.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 30 2010 20:54 GMT

#114

against multiple targets who don't invest in armor, I've been considering getting SotD instead of LW recently and I think it would be better. The active would give better penetration vs. targets with < 100 armor and it gives better attack speed + better damage/autoattack with the bonus 100 every 4 hits vs. 10/hit. It would also prevent gay shit like towerdiving someone just to have your auto-crit get dodged. Of course if you need to do sustained deeps vs. tanks lw makes more sense, but I think SotD has a situational place in Panth builds ever since they reduced its cost and increased it's attack speed.

-Kato-

Spain1146 Posts

December 01 2010 09:53 GMT

#115

So, for the pros:

New skilling order with new patch?

With HSS being useful (I guess), is ASPD necessary at all now? Isn't Panth more of a burst melee?

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

December 01 2010 16:17 GMT

#116

no idea yet.

either way though, to think ASPD is a bad stat based on the viability of a move on a 20 second CD is a bit naive. either way you'll want to be putting your beefy AD to good use between CDs and autoattacking is a large part of that so I imagine it does little to change itemization after the patch.

for skilling, my first games tonight will be QWEQQR -> ????. I'd like to see what his level 3 burst looks like now, because as far as I can tell, his level one E is going to be hitting much harder than it ever has in the past. Leveling E early seems stupid to me because it increases E's mana cost for the lowest per level damage increase in HSS's history at the point where Pantheon's mana constraints are the worst they've ever been. Just doesn't make sense to level it past 1 before level 6 IMO. And later, meh, I dunno, again, the returns per level on HSS are pretty meh right now at +3% damage/level, I think basically all that this did to my theory of playing Pantheon is move level 1 of HSS from level 4 to level 3 and make it acceptable to use HSS active at 1 rank.

LoCicero

1100 Posts

December 01 2010 19:59 GMT

#117

So I've played some games with new Panth. Riot is terrible at programming, so his E is bugged again and the first tick does double damage... Sooo, with this bug I went back to the old level scheme of Q W E E E R Q E etc... Since his E is somewhat front-loaded he doesn't need the extra stun duration. He seems more similar to old Pantheon. I have to admit I am pretty rusty with oldschool Panth. I seem to have forgotten how to use E correctly, lol. Buuut, once Riot realizes the bug I might agree with Smash. E @ lvl 1 is still dangerous, and by maxing Q you have more ranged strength and still have decent melee strength with E. We'll see once they fix the bug.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

December 01 2010 20:08 GMT

#118

that company needs some fucking QA, lol. it's like they don't even test for this shit before they ship it :p. shit like that happens during coding though, and I really do blame not catching shit like that on Quality Assurance practices (or lack thereof) and not coding... NO I'M NOT JUST SAYING THIS BECAUSE I'M A CODE MONKEY.

ahem, anyway, for me the Q vs. E decision (after they fix it, lol) is more about mana efficiency at low levels than anything else. Q gets good damage returns and doesn't up its mana cost. E gets somewhat poor damage returns and increases its mana cost. Seems like a pretty straightforward choice to me.